General Guides........................................................................................................................Beginner • Advanced • Resources Terran.....................................................................................General • Terran vs Terran • Terran vs Zerg • Terran vs Protoss Zerg....................................................................................................General • Zerg vs Terran • Zerg vs Zerg • Zerg vs Protoss Protoss..........................................................................General • Protoss vs Terran • Protoss vs Zerg • Protoss vs Protoss Team Games............................................................................................................................................................................................... Other...............................................................................................................................................................................................................
All of the guides recommended here are the highest quality guides on TeamLiquid. As such, they all show at least a few of the following characteristics:
Contains detailed discussion on the subject.
Proven to work. Thus, most of the strategies discussed in these guides have been demonstrated in pro level games.
Well organized and formatted.
Written by notable, respected writers.
Many of these guides also fall under general categories such as General, Build, or Style, along with further identifications (Timing, Standard, Non-Standard, Opening, All-in, etc...) and are appropriately labeled.
General Basic Guideby Robbz A guide to the most basic things. Great help understanding common SC terms; everything from APM to macro, along with certain settings newer players may not realise they should use eg. health bars.
How to Improveby Ver This is a Broodwar PDF, but many of the sections, particularly removing false beliefs and skills, are applicable to SC2.
Analyzing Replaysby Plexa Explains how to go about analysing your own play. Great place if you have no idea where to start.
Designing Build Ordersby infinity21 Walks you through the creation of a build order; how to refine; how to test etc.
How to Plan a Strategyby sc2john An interesting discussion about the general ideas behind ingame strategy, builds and their goals.
Worker Split Guideby l46kok Neat trick to maximise mining efficiency in the early game
How to Play When You're Ahead or Behindby infinity21 Guide showing how to judge whether you're ahead or behind, and how your decision making/actions should be determined by your situation.
Designing Build Ordersby infinity21 Walks you through the creation of a build order; how to refine; how to test etc.
Walling Mechanicsby Orek A short guide for how best to build walls (what type of wall do I want in what positions, etc).
Analysis of Macroby LaLuSh Mathcrafting at its finest. You want to see the effect of mules vs chronoboost on min income (amongst other things), then this is the thread for you.
Critical Upgrade Analysisby kazansky Shows which upgrades you should be getting depending on match up. An invaluable resource.
Forcing The Metagameby ZerG~LegenD Zerg Legend's take on the metagame. An interesting read.
Unit Production Calculatorby Haploid Figure out exactly the number of production buildings you can support on a particular number of bases
Build Order Timing Calculatorby CarbonTwelve Plug details in, then gives you the optimal timing for a particular build. Generally speaking the the calculator will be faster than what you can achieve in game, but at least it gives you something to aim for.
Map Distance & Travel Timeby Orek Reference material for how long different units take to travel from 1 main to another (maps being added as they are added to the ladder pool).
Terran Strategy Visit at your own risk: There is a lot of outdated information.
The Terran Help Me Threadby TL Strategy Ask here for Terran help. Make sure to read the OP for FAQs and posting guidelines.
The Real Cost of Unitsby Griffith' Useful database showing per minute costs of all Terran units.
How to Make a Low-Ground Depot/Rax Ramp Wallby michaelhasanalias Useful for walling the bottom of your ramp with just two buildings, but will not work on maps with neutral depots.
(General)TvP Late Game: The VG in MMMVGby Fencar A treatise on late-game TvP composition with bio forces, outline how to use tech units and how to compose your army.
(General)TvP Scoutingby ImVirusr A simple post on what to scout for and how to react in early game TvP.
(Build > Standard)CC First into Bioby Jazzman88 A comprehensive guide on a greedy opener transitioning into the standard midgame in TvP.
(Build > Standard)Bomber's FE into 3 Rax 1-Gasby Jazzman88 A standard TvP build that gets a very fast command center and a delayed second gas. Slightly outdated with HotS.
(Build > Opening)ZvT Get Curious: a Nydus Killer Timingby usNEUX A build used by Curious (and Leenock) in GSL as an All-In designed to kill any 3 CC terran openings.
(Build > Opening)Haessebust: ZvZ Baneling All-inby TangSC One of TangSC's all-in build This one (2 gas baneling all-in) is usefull to improve your agressive baneling micro
(General)ZvZ: building placementby Direstrait A simple building placement trick to protect your natural's queen.
(Build > Opening)A Guide on Early ZvZ: How to Stay Alive and Set Yourself up for the Midgameby Mavvie Usefull to know how to defend a standard, non all-iny ling-bane agression when you yourself open with a standard macro build. In other words, how to defend the early, non-alliny agression with your macro build in the early game. This thread only talks about build orders, though, and does not go into the micro matters. Skip the part vs 10 pool, however, it's outdated.
(Build > Style > Standard) Parting's PvTby Teoita A comprehensive guide of Parting's macro builds that get early blink tech and a fast third while delaying upgrades.
(Build > Style > Semi-standard)Zest's Immortal/Archon timing attackby Jaypower A strong 2 base timing attack based around immortals and templar tech that can also easily take a third base.
(General)Protoss versus Zerg: The Guideby TL Strategy Extremely comprehensive guide about the entire matchup in WoL. Some points are applicable to HotS.
(Build > Style > Standard)Chargelot Archon Void Ray: sOs PvZby Teoita and SC2John An extensive guide on one of sOs' most innovative builds.
(Build > Opening)The 2-2-2 Colossus All-inby Alejandrisha and Teoita Another powerful all-in against Zerg 3base play, made popular by the HotS metagame.
(Build > Opening)PvZ 7 Gate Blink All-inby hellokittysc2 A strong and popular 2base timing attack
(Build> Opening)PvP: Stable PvP: Two Gate FEby sc2john A standard build to secure a fairly safe nexus and head into the midgame.
(Build > Opening)PvP: Modern DT Expand/Defenseby SidewinderSC2 A popular way to secure a fast nexus and gain map control using DT's.
(Build > Opening)PvP: CJherO's Safe Blink openerby Lapack_ The most standard opening in PvP, with the ability to both secure an early Nexus while taking map control and harassing.
(Build > Opening)PvP HerO's Safe Stargate Openingby DarkblueRH One of LiquidHero's main builds in PvP, and one of the safest Phoenix openings possible.
(Style > Standard)PvP: Phoenix Playby Geiko An overview of phoenix openers in PvP
Macro Macro Macroby malphigian There's a reason the more experienced players have this mantra. Here's someone simply massing stalkers and a-moving to diamond.
(Style > Creative)Synystyr's Anti Colossusby Synystyr Another unconventional strat, which favors banshees, to rip through a colossi heavy protoss
(Style > Creative)StimmedProbe's Million Man Marineby StimmedProbe MMM= Marine, Marine, Marine. FE allows for mass marine production. Be Constantly attacking your enemy
Macro Efficiencyby -Xios Comprehensive guide to zerg macro efficiency.
(General > Overview)The Art of ZvTby ZerG~LegenD Zerg~Legend's overview of ZvT
(General > Overview)Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvT!by Belial88 A ZvT guide for those of you who struggle with the match-up. However, it is possible, especially with the 6 queens opening, to take the greed to the next level. This guide also do not mention the reactored helion + banshee, which is still popular at the moment, even if terrans lately shows some tendency to ease it on the banshee part in favor of an earlier 3rd CC.
(General > Overview) Vandroy's take on ZvZ Very detailed guide on ZvZ
(General > Overview)Zerg vs Zerg: Everything I Knowby Chaosvuistje Chaosvuistje's overview of ZvZ. It can still be a good read for a Zerg newcomer, but at least half the information contained in this guide is outdated.
(Style > Non-standard)Zerg vs Zerg Ling/Infestors into Ultralisksby blade55555 The awesome Blade55555's guide on ZvZ. This style is hard to pull off and should be reserved to confirmed players and big maps. It has faded out of style because Z learned the counter: roach rally attack. Pro include roaches midgame when doing this style and rarely go to ultralisk anymore. It's usefull to read as a historical guide nonetheless.
(Build > Opening) Speedling expand Take early map control, and expand relatively safely with this build
(General > Overview)The Art of ZvPby ZerG~LegenD Excellent overview of this matchup. From dealing with DT rush, to reacting to cannon cheddar, this thread has it all.
(Build > Opening)Stephano-Style ZvP- The 12 Minute Max-Outby TangSC An overview of a classic of ZvP: The so-called Stephano 12 Minutes max style. If this build at the professional level is nowadays rarely used to actually max out and bust the 3rd in ZvP, the actual build is still used as a reliable way to stop 2 base all-ins and to set yourself for a good midgame. The famous immortal all-in, though, was specifically designed to counter a build such as this 12 minutes max-out.
(Style > Non-standard)Zerg vs Protoss Baneling Revolutionby blade55555 Blade55555's guide on Banelings to solve your mid- and lategame issues vs Protoss. Especially vs Mothership.
(Build > Opening)PvT 2 Gate Fast Obs FEby CecilSunkure The safest pvt openings. Aim to get fast observer to enable you to react to your opponents initial build. Not very used in competitive play as it's considered overly safe.
(Build > Style > Standard)Startale 2 Base Templarby Teoita Open with a fast expansion, tech safely to High Templar to take a third and head into the lategame
(Build > Style > Standard)kcdc's PvTby kcdc A different way to head into a Templar based midgame.
(Build > Opening)15 Nexusby rsvp Mainstream opening which allows you to transition into a variety of builds
(General > Overview)PvP: Compilation of Anti 4 Gate Buildsby monk All of these builds will work versus 4 gate. Since 4Gate in PvP is weaker and less common, many of these builds aren't used in competitive play anymore.
(General > Overview)PvT Overviewby Arcanefrost General overview of this matchup; lots of advice in the thread is outdated.
(Build > Opening)PvZ HerOic FFEby Alejandrisha One of LiquidHero's main builds in PvZ
(Build > Opening > Semi-standard)PvZ: 1 Assim 1 Gate FEby CecilSunkure An alternative to standard forge expanding.
(Build > Style > Standard)PvZ: 3 Base Colossus vs 3 Hatchby Alejandrisha Fast expand into Stargate to put pressure on, into a powerful 3base timing attack.
(General > Overview)PvZ Overviewby Plexa Weaker players may find more to learn than diamonds/masters, but an excellent analysis of PvZ nonetheless. Made completely obsolete by the more recent PvZ Guide.
(General)Lessons Learned from Brown vs Losiraby monk Some tips/suggestions on how to play Macro PvZ. Since this game, both Zerg and Protoss builds have evolved tremendously
(Build > Opening)IMYongHwa's 3 Gate Roboby CecilSunkure The first thread which introduced 3 stalker rush for 4 gate defense. The exact build is outdated, because of the patch changes.
(Build > Opening)Defensive 3 Gateby Geiko Overly safe opening in modern play.
(Style > Standard)PvP: Robo Twilightby monk Guide for what is generally accepted is the most solid style for PvP, bit outdated
(Build > Opening)PvT Fast Expandby kcdc The original 1 gate expansion build for PvT. Although it's outdated, the general ideas are all there and it's a good history lesson.
(Build > Opening)3 Gate Aggressive Expoby CecilSunkure Build which lets you apply heavy pressure while expanding at the same time. Rarely used in competitive play as it's not economic or safe enough against modern Terran openings.
(Build > Opening > Creative)Fake 3 Gate Roboby ROOTMinigun Interesting strat which uses early hallucinated immortals to "pressure" opponent and try to force mistakes. Hardly used in competitive play.
(Build > Opening)PvZ 2 Gate FE 10-16by iSTime Outdated opening; 2base colossus is not viable anymore in competitive play
(Build > Style > Standard)Standard Play Part 2: 2 Gate Roboby iamke55 Open with a 2 gate robo, secure expansion, with intention to fast tech to colossus. Both the opening and midgame build are outdated as they focus too little on economy and upgrades.
(Build > Style > Standard)Liquid'Tyler's Double Forgeby iamke55 3 gate robo into double forge. Although no one does this exact build anymore, there's a lot of good concepts in it
(Build > Style > Semi-standard)CvZ: Immortal Blink Templarby CecilSunkure While the midgame composition and playstyle are still somewhat viable, the build and theory behind it are outdated
(Style > Semi-standard)DT -> Chargelot Archonby CecilSunkure There's a more updated guide on the same style of play.
(Style > Creative)Gnial's Stalker/Void Rayby Gnial Early game strategy to gain advantage using stalkers and void rays
(General > Overview)An introduction to 2v2by EtherealDream A great overview of 2v2 team games
Yeah this format is way better than mine. GL. If you don't mind I will PM you with a guide that I really like every once in a while. I troll these forums all the time for tastiness.
Ok, I'm done purging and reformatting the original thread so it's more readable/organized. Some threads are still boarderline on if I want to keep them or not. Going to start adding new threads.
On November 11 2011 16:14 NrGmonk wrote: Pretty much done. You guys can recommend threads to add. I noticed there's a lot less terran guides than ones from other races. o_O
On November 11 2011 16:14 NrGmonk wrote: Pretty much done. You guys can recommend threads to add. I noticed there's a lot less terran guides than ones from other races. o_O
On November 11 2011 16:14 NrGmonk wrote: Pretty much done. You guys can recommend threads to add. I noticed there's a lot less terran guides than ones from other races. o_O
So subtle.....almost like it didn't happen -.-
?
And so ends my attempts at internet humor, I should have bolded the terran guides comment or something. Idk, I'm tired and jetlagged and emp is stupid. Double forge builds are fun though.
On November 11 2011 16:14 NrGmonk wrote: Pretty much done. You guys can recommend threads to add. I noticed there's a lot less terran guides than ones from other races. o_O
So subtle.....almost like it didn't happen -.-
?
And so ends my attempts at internet humor, I should have bolded the terran guides comment or something. Idk, I'm tired and jetlagged and emp is stupid. Double forge builds are fun though.
On November 11 2011 16:14 NrGmonk wrote: Pretty much done. You guys can recommend threads to add. I noticed there's a lot less terran guides than ones from other races. o_O
So subtle.....almost like it didn't happen -.-
?
And so ends my attempts at internet humor, I should have bolded the terran guides comment or something. Idk, I'm tired and jetlagged and emp is stupid. Double forge builds are fun though.
May I suggest that you remove Sheth's guide in the Zerg section? or put it in a "historical" section? Because (with all due respect to this great player) it was written one year and a half ago, and I am afraid it's no so relevant anymore
On November 13 2011 17:50 Macpo wrote: May I suggest that you remove Sheth's guide in the Zerg section? or put it in a "historical" section? Because (with all due respect to this great player) it was written one year and a half ago, and I am afraid it's no so relevant anymore
On November 13 2011 17:50 Macpo wrote: May I suggest that you remove Sheth's guide in the Zerg section? or put it in a "historical" section? Because (with all due respect to this great player) it was written one year and a half ago, and I am afraid it's no so relevant anymore
I see a ton of outdated guides that would be useless for anyone in the master league or higher (such as the ones I wrote), but this seems better than the previous thread so I'll sticky it.
On November 15 2011 08:45 iamke55 wrote: I see a ton of outdated guides that would be useless for anyone in the master league or higher (such as the ones I wrote), but this seems better than the previous thread so I'll sticky it.
I was rather lenient with my cuts to the original thread. However, I don't think the target audience of this thread should be masters players or higher. Rather, I imagine newer players would benefit the most from this thread.
On November 15 2011 08:45 iamke55 wrote: I see a ton of outdated guides that would be useless for anyone in the master league or higher (such as the ones I wrote), but this seems better than the previous thread so I'll sticky it.
I was rather lenient with my cuts to the original thread. However, I don't think the target audience of this thread should be masters players or higher. Rather, I imagine newer players would benefit the most from this thread.
Perhaps it would be best to make a subcategory "advanced", meaning strategies or such that are not recommended for lower levels of play where, for example, timings aren't crisp and such, etc., they don't have the micro, only work in specific situations, etc.
I think the 6 pool thread should be included even if the information is not provided very orderly, if that's the problem.
On November 16 2011 18:59 Bad_Habit wrote: you sir mr.monk really have to think about what the community likes, not only prefer ur own likes
What? Even in his own thread . Give over.
At the end of the day my thread (when it was being updated) started having far too many recommendations, and was becoming a case of quantity over quality. He was right to sort the wheat from the chaff, and I hope he continues in this vein.
At the end of the day he's in a far better position than you or I to judge which threads should be included.
nrgmonk- As a suggestion I think you might want to include a "historic" section with out dated threads which, while they are no longer 100 percent applicable, still include nuggets of information which could be useful for wider game knowledge.
Secondly, and this is more vanity than anything else, it would have been nice to have a mention in the op, seeing as most of it was copied and pasted from my thread.
On November 16 2011 18:59 Bad_Habit wrote: you sir mr.monk really have to think about what the community likes, not only prefer ur own likes
At the end of the day he's in a far better position than you or I to judge which threads should be included.
how about the community (viewcount), not the single opinion of someone in charge O_O
if you only wand bronzes to read this so they can improve then u should call it the "help bronzies thread". this beeing worked out by one single person (whom i 6pooled twice + a ton of his teammates) will always lead to bias : /
On November 16 2011 18:59 Bad_Habit wrote: you sir mr.monk really have to think about what the community likes, not only prefer ur own likes
At the end of the day he's in a far better position than you or I to judge which threads should be included.
how about the community (viewcount), not the single opinion of someone in charge O_O
if you only wand bronzes to read this so they can improve then u should call it the "help bronzies thread". this beeing worked out by one single person (whom i 6pooled twice + a ton of his teammates) will always lead to bias : /
I don't remember you 6 pooling me ever or even playing you ever. You maybe have 6 pooled me once, but I assure you you didn't do so twice. Plus all you've done is incessantly bother me about it without giving any actual reasons why your guide should be here. Being rude to me is not a good way to get your guide here.
I saw that you forgot to embed a link in the zvp section(timing is also misspelled in the same place) otherwise great work and thanks for taking the time I'm sure it will help alot of people.
On November 17 2011 04:49 Vandroy wrote: I saw that you forgot to embed a link in the zvp section(timing is also misspelled in the same place) otherwise great work and thanks for taking the time I'm sure it will help alot of people.
Big ♥'s monk for doing this, it's been sorely needed to get this updated. Can I request that the other timings thread be removed however? It's full of misinformation, and more importantly hasn't been updated since February of this year... :/
Edit: oh, I'd like to second that idea from Mofisto. It definitely would be nice to have a deprecated 'historical' section of old stuff that's not quite applicable, but at some point was a viable build/strategy or whatnot, just for a historical perspective, but I'll leave that up to your discretion.
On November 16 2011 18:59 Bad_Habit wrote: you sir mr.monk really have to think about what the community likes, not only prefer ur own likes
At the end of the day he's in a far better position than you or I to judge which threads should be included.
how about the community (viewcount), not the single opinion of someone in charge O_O
if you only wand bronzes to read this so they can improve then u should call it the "help bronzies thread". this beeing worked out by one single person (whom i 6pooled twice + a ton of his teammates) will always lead to bias : /
I don't remember you 6 pooling me ever or even playing you ever. You maybe have 6 pooled me once, but I assure you you didn't do so twice. Plus all you've done is incessantly bother me about it without giving any actual reasons why your guide should be here. Being rude to me is not a good way to get your guide here.
On November 16 2011 18:59 Bad_Habit wrote: you sir mr.monk really have to think about what the community likes, not only prefer ur own likes
What? Even in his own thread . Give over.
At the end of the day my thread (when it was being updated) started having far too many recommendations, and was becoming a case of quantity over quality. He was right to sort the wheat from the chaff, and I hope he continues in this vein.
At the end of the day he's in a far better position than you or I to judge which threads should be included.
nrgmonk- As a suggestion I think you might want to include a "historic" section with out dated threads which, while they are no longer 100 percent applicable, still include nuggets of information which could be useful for wider game knowledge.
Secondly, and this is more vanity than anything else, it would have been nice to have a mention in the op, seeing as most of it was copied and pasted from my thread.
Anyway, nice one for updating this thread mate
I'm concerned if, even him being a blue poster, this behavior is proper? He may have created the thread, but it is stickied for the use of the community, not because it was monk who made it. If this perspective isn't shared by others, then please explain why.
Your claim that he's in a better position than Bad_Habit may have the basis that monk is proven to be a valuable member in the strategy community, but having a higher knowledge of strategy doesn't make him better at judging which threads deserve to be included. Also, he did provide the reasons that he spent a lot of time on it, and that it took him "forever", thus him explaining he put a lot effort into it. Maybe monk and bad_habit discussed something in some PMs I am not aware of, but compared to Monk's, Bad_Habit gave a better argument, even if it is of a low quality, in comparison to a nonexistent one of Monk's.
On a minor note, is it proper to post something like "Stop bothering me" in a thread? Isn't that the kind of personal, unconstructive post supposed to be contained within the confines of PMs? Personal messages? Like I said earlier, it seems Bad_Habit has given more reason than Monk as to why his guide should be included. Even if Monk did tell him why he didn't include it through PMs, that does not justify him not explaining in this thread either. Such topics should be shared and discussed within the community, so we can be constructive and contribute properly to end up with the best quality list of recommended guides.
If Bad_Habit revealed through PMs he wanted his guide to be included, I don't see how it's not justified for him to repost his argument here (aside from the BM and him discriminating with the "you're just mad cus i 6 pooled you" comments), it being that his guide shouldn't be just excluded because it is about 6 pooling, which is looked down upon much of the community. In that sense, there is no justification for you to dismiss that, saying "Stop bothering me". Him re-posting his explanation in the public vs keeping it within PMs allows others to join in and possibly discuss the issue.
I hope I sound reasonable, because I sincerely do not think this kind of behavior is professional for TL, especially for a stickied thread whose purpose is to serve the community, not for an individual to take advantage of an opportunity to bring attention to certain guides, whether it is of ill intention or not.
However, if I, or anyone, is able to create a "Recommended Strategy Guide" without it being closed, my concerns/argument may be dismissed
On November 16 2011 23:49 Bad_Habit wrote: judging the given facts =/= beeing rude
Judging the facts does not necessarily mean you are being rude, but if you write in such a hostile or disrespectful manner, it is still rude. (It was rude of you to discriminate against monk and accuse him of hidden intentions that he didn't want to include your guide because you 6 pooled him twice, or so you say).
I don't want to get in the middle of this but, I do feel the 6 pool guide is better than some of the guides currently included. For example there's an old how to stop a 6 pool as protoss guide, that is far less comprehensive (and if a guide as narrow as the counter to a build deserves inclusion, surely so does the strategy itself). Then again I have no idea whether you have finished updating and filtering out strategies or barely started.
On November 18 2011 14:13 FirstGear wrote: Nice job Monk, very helpful. Pity there aren't more Terran guides on TL. Its really lacking in good generic macro based strategy.
I don't want to get in the middle of this but, I do feel the 6 pool guide is better than some of the guides currently included. For example there's an old how to stop a 6 pool as protoss guide, that is far less comprehensive (and if a guide as narrow as the counter to a build deserves inclusion, surely so does the strategy itself). Then again I have no idea whether you have finished updating and filtering out strategies or barely started.
I think the 6 pool guide is a nice resource as well, but I think it's rough organization is keeping it back. It would be much more helpful, convenient, and nice if, for example, at least the Build Order sections can list the steps of the build order with explanation before and after it, instead of jumbling it all together in one disorderly block of text xD
Also, I am concerned about the quality of the PvZ How to stop 6 pool guide. Please see my quote of me quoting myself
On August 24 2011 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I will be quoting myself from another 6 pool thread.
The best way to do defend against 6 pool and also be better economically is just to build your pylon/gate hugging your nexus/mineral line, instead of at the ramp
This way if he comes with a 6 pool, your 2nd pylon you make will guarantee ur gateway gets the first zealot out, and at that point you just need a little micro to stack probes and go back and forth with your zealots
And if he doesn't 6 pool you, you can put your 2nd pylon and cyber/other2gates at your ramp later on; it will be there on time for any kind of speedling attacks
WhiteRa mentions this on one of MrBitter's videos
I'm curious though why more people don't do this.
And I'm still wondering why more people don't do this. There is no reason not to, really.
And again I would like to emphasize, I have seen no reason not to do this, and after all, this is what WhiteRa said. Maybe it's a bit too assuming but I think it should be safe to assume that WhiteRa knows what he's talking about?
If a 6 pooler makes 6 lings and then immediately starts droning and macroing, and you ended up making a forge and cannon and cut probes, your lead won't be nearly as great as it should be.
I'm not sure about the 3 OC into Mech into Bio end game guide is very good. The beginning and explanation of how to play Mech is nice, but the end game into Bio still does not make sense to me; my arguments and reasonings are still left unanswered/countered in his thread =/
On November 18 2011 14:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I'm not sure about the 3 OC into Mech into Bio end game guide is very good. The beginning and explanation of how to play Mech is nice, but the end game into Bio still does not make sense to me; my arguments and reasonings are still left unanswered/countered in his thread =/
You're right the end game part is a little weak, but you can poke holes in every guide currently up. But the early and mid stuff is good. Until someone writes a better TvZ 3 OC guide, its the best we've got. 3 OC is so popular right now that it really deserves recognition.
On November 18 2011 14:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I'm not sure about the 3 OC into Mech into Bio end game guide is very good. The beginning and explanation of how to play Mech is nice, but the end game into Bio still does not make sense to me; my arguments and reasonings are still left unanswered/countered in his thread =/
You're right the end game part is a little weak, but you can poke holes in every guide currently up. But the early and mid stuff is good. Until someone writes a better TvZ 3 OC guide, its the best we've got. 3 OC is so popular right now that it really deserves recognition.
True, true. Even the best of guides won't be perfect >.< Not yet, at least :D
Ok why Bad_Habit's guide wasn't initially included:
Content: As stated in the OP, guides with more standard play are more likely to be included. Guides have to be over the top for them if they're not of standard play.
Format: Probably the biggest reason it wasn't included. Everyone's already touched on this.
Professionalism: There's posts of 2 people who rage at the end of his "guide". This seems like more worthy of a blog than anything.
Btw most of these criterion can be found in the OP.
Now here's a list of things that did not further his cause after he asked:
He gave no reasons to convince me otherwise except "I worked hard on it", which everyone could claim about their guides.
Claiming that I'm biased because he 6 pool'd me twice and any teammates numerous times when I've never heard of him in my life. Now, he just made it personal.
The guides people mention that are worse than his 6 pool thread are all from the original thread I copied. I was very lenient about the threads I cut and I will probably cut some more in the future. In addition, I can assure you that they are all better formatted than Bad_Habit's thread.
However, if I, or anyone, is able to create a "Recommended Strategy Guide" without it being closed, my concerns/argument may be dismissed
a reason why you should add this is theres also a big help how to defend against 6pool/early agression. same as alot of minor things are worked out very well that can be used in alot of normal cenarious aswell. another reason is that cheese is part of the game, even tho u might not like cheese urself, ppl need to be aware that there are more ways available than "no attack till 30 minutes"
so "2 random" ppl voched for my vote in the last little time when noone (unless you who eyerolled about my thread) was against it. i really think its good help for people and im sorry my english isnt the best. i can work out the blocks to be better organized even tho i have no idea how to do it yet. i would appreciate any help here since i have problems doing this (same as problems with the language)
i did not mean to disrespect you, i just got a little mad because my hard word didnt count for anything in your eyes
: (
i dont see why there is a thread with "how to defend against 6pool" in there when u only want normal threads about a normal macro game
Most of these are very low quality unstandard strategies. I'll include warden's guide though.
You're joking right? Since when is "standard" considered necessary for a guide? You've selected both iechoic's TvT build and griffith's PvT mass PF mech. Both of which are *completely* opposite of standard TvT and TvP. TvT without tanks? TvP without bio? Come on. I don't think you should exclude a guide just because you personally don't like it.
6 Rax Allin is viable, TLO uses it quite a bit, and actually beat Idra with it at an MLG. 2 Rax 3 Bunker has been the safest Terran FE build for centuries. 16 Marine drop: MMA, Kawaiirice, QXC, Select 3 OC into mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody, STC, Byun Hellion/Thor mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody 3 Reaper rush: MVP, Nada, QXC, TLO, Select
Most of these are very low quality unstandard strategies. I'll include warden's guide though.
You're joking right? Since when is "standard" considered necessary for a guide? You've selected both iechoic's TvT build and griffith's PvT mass PF mech. Both of which are *completely* opposite of standard TvT and TvP. TvT without tanks? TvP without bio? Come on. I don't think you should exclude a guide just because you personally don't like it.
6 Rax Allin is viable, TLO uses it quite a bit, and actually beat Idra with it at an MLG. 2 Rax 3 Bunker has been the safest Terran FE build for centuries. 16 Marine drop: MMA, Kawaiirice, QXC, Select 3 OC into mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody, STC, Byun Hellion/Thor mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody 3 Reaper rush: MVP, Nada, QXC, TLO, Select
I'm sure there's many more...
My criteria are clearly listed at the top of the post. Guides are included solely based on how well they follow those criteria. As I've said before, a guide has to be more exceptional than usual if it's not "standard". The biggest reason I prefer "standard" strategies is that they're easier for me to vet. If a strategy is "out there" and I'm not as familiar with the matchup, it's harder for me to tell if they're viable at the highest level. And honestly the biggest reason I rejected all those guides is that they're not that well-organized, detailed, or well-written. For example, warden's guide isn't standard at all, but it WAS well-organized, detailed, and well-written. There's nothing personal about my decisions and I don't even understand how my decisions could be personal.
About iechoic's guide: There's a lot of reasons that guide is there there
It was quite a big deal when it was first posted.
It's very well written and organized.
It was in the original thread I copied this from.
There's honestly no better TvT threads and I didn't want to leave the TvT section blank.
That being said, if I add a "historical" section as people have suggested, I'll probably move that guide over.
The TvP mech guide doesn't deserve to be in here though. It was in the original thread and I must have missed it while going through all the old guides. I'll remove that. As you might be able to tell, I was trying to be minimalistic with the thread so people could more easily find good quality guides. If you have an argument that a guide I didn't include is better than a guide I did include, it's more likely that I'll remove the worse guide than add the better one.
I also don't understand why you feel like you have to flame me without first asking me why I did what I did. This thread took a deceivingly large amount of time to compile between finding good guides, reading/checking them all, and formatting. I've put a lot of work and thought into it and I don't feel like you've given me the benefit of the doubt that I know what I'm doing.
Most of these are very low quality unstandard strategies. I'll include warden's guide though.
You're joking right? Since when is "standard" considered necessary for a guide? You've selected both iechoic's TvT build and griffith's PvT mass PF mech. Both of which are *completely* opposite of standard TvT and TvP. TvT without tanks? TvP without bio? Come on. I don't think you should exclude a guide just because you personally don't like it.
Not to comment on who I agree with in this somewhat heated debate, but I'd like to make a specific point: iEchoic's style was revolutionary TvT and laid the groundwork for the Full Mech play that exists today, a lot of which opens in a similar fashion (viking/hellion). He revolutionized the metagame by demonstrating that the marine is not king, and showing off some spectacular ways to defend early pushes and allins by relying heavily on tech (banshees, hellions etc)
Although his specific build order is no longer used often, the core ideas that were developed in his playstyle underpin modern TvT mech, and if you watch a game of Full Mech vs Full Mech, the opening phases resemble two iEchoic-style players playing each other.
You can say what you want about him, but iEchoic demonstrated the viability of a hellion/viking composition in the early game at the highest level of play, and although I'm sure we'd have full mech TvT without him, it would have taken longer for it to happen.
Most of these are very low quality unstandard strategies. I'll include warden's guide though.
You're joking right? Since when is "standard" considered necessary for a guide? You've selected both iechoic's TvT build and griffith's PvT mass PF mech. Both of which are *completely* opposite of standard TvT and TvP. TvT without tanks? TvP without bio? Come on. I don't think you should exclude a guide just because you personally don't like it.
6 Rax Allin is viable, TLO uses it quite a bit, and actually beat Idra with it at an MLG. 2 Rax 3 Bunker has been the safest Terran FE build for centuries. 16 Marine drop: MMA, Kawaiirice, QXC, Select 3 OC into mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody, STC, Byun Hellion/Thor mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody 3 Reaper rush: MVP, Nada, QXC, TLO, Select
I'm sure there's many more...
My criteria are clearly listed at the top of the post. Guides are included solely based on how well they follow those criteria. As I've said before, a guide has to be more exceptional than usual if it's not "standard". The biggest reason I prefer "standard" strategies is that they're easier for me to vet. If a strategy is "out there" and I'm not as familiar with the matchup, it's harder for me to tell if they're viable at the highest level. And honestly the biggest reason I rejected all those guides is that they're not that well-organized, detailed, or well-written. For example, warden's guide isn't standard at all, but it WAS well-organized, detailed, and well-written. There's nothing personal about my decisions and I don't even understand how my decisions could be personal.
About iechoic's guide: There's a lot of reasons that guide is there there
It was quite a big deal when it was first posted.
It's very well written and organized.
It was in the original thread I copied this from.
There's honestly no better TvT threads and I didn't want to leave the TvT section blank.
That being said, if I add a "historical" section as people have suggested, I'll probably move that guide over.
The TvP mech guide doesn't deserve to be in here though. It was in the original thread and I must have missed it while going through all the old guides. I'll remove that. As you might be able to tell, I was trying to be minimalistic with the thread so people could more easily find good quality guides. If you have an argument that a guide I didn't include is better than a guide I did include, it's more likely that I'll remove the worse guide than add the better one.
I also don't understand why you feel like you have to flame me without first asking me why I did what I did. This thread took a deceivingly large amount of time to compile between finding good guides, reading/checking them all, and formatting. I've put a lot of work and thought into it and I don't feel like you've given me the benefit of the doubt that I know what I'm doing.
The main reason I'm upset is that the old recommend guide thread actually has more guides for Terran than this one. And this thread doesn't list any of the new guides. Many of the Zerg/Protoss guides currently listed are of equal quality to the ones I posted above. I'd much rather have a wide variety of guides to choose from instead of only 1-2 per Terran matchup. I don't think guides should be excluded just because they're not as perfect or pretty as others.
Most of these are very low quality unstandard strategies. I'll include warden's guide though.
You're joking right? Since when is "standard" considered necessary for a guide? You've selected both iechoic's TvT build and griffith's PvT mass PF mech. Both of which are *completely* opposite of standard TvT and TvP. TvT without tanks? TvP without bio? Come on. I don't think you should exclude a guide just because you personally don't like it.
6 Rax Allin is viable, TLO uses it quite a bit, and actually beat Idra with it at an MLG. 2 Rax 3 Bunker has been the safest Terran FE build for centuries. 16 Marine drop: MMA, Kawaiirice, QXC, Select 3 OC into mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody, STC, Byun Hellion/Thor mech: MVP, Demuslim, Goody 3 Reaper rush: MVP, Nada, QXC, TLO, Select
I'm sure there's many more...
My criteria are clearly listed at the top of the post. Guides are included solely based on how well they follow those criteria. As I've said before, a guide has to be more exceptional than usual if it's not "standard". The biggest reason I prefer "standard" strategies is that they're easier for me to vet. If a strategy is "out there" and I'm not as familiar with the matchup, it's harder for me to tell if they're viable at the highest level. And honestly the biggest reason I rejected all those guides is that they're not that well-organized, detailed, or well-written. For example, warden's guide isn't standard at all, but it WAS well-organized, detailed, and well-written. There's nothing personal about my decisions and I don't even understand how my decisions could be personal.
About iechoic's guide: There's a lot of reasons that guide is there there
It was quite a big deal when it was first posted.
It's very well written and organized.
It was in the original thread I copied this from.
There's honestly no better TvT threads and I didn't want to leave the TvT section blank.
That being said, if I add a "historical" section as people have suggested, I'll probably move that guide over.
The TvP mech guide doesn't deserve to be in here though. It was in the original thread and I must have missed it while going through all the old guides. I'll remove that. As you might be able to tell, I was trying to be minimalistic with the thread so people could more easily find good quality guides. If you have an argument that a guide I didn't include is better than a guide I did include, it's more likely that I'll remove the worse guide than add the better one.
I also don't understand why you feel like you have to flame me without first asking me why I did what I did. This thread took a deceivingly large amount of time to compile between finding good guides, reading/checking them all, and formatting. I've put a lot of work and thought into it and I don't feel like you've given me the benefit of the doubt that I know what I'm doing.
The main reason I'm upset is that the old recommend guide thread actually has more guides for Terran than this one. And this thread doesn't list any of the new guides. Many of the Zerg/Protoss guides currently listed are of equal quality to the ones I posted above. I'd much rather have a wide variety of guides to choose from instead of only 1-2 per Terran matchup. I don't think guides should be excluded just because they're not as perfect or pretty as others.
All the zerg/protoss guides are either of superior quality to the guides you suggested or from the old thread and I'm on the fence about taking them out. I'm not going to put a minimum amount of guides per race. The terran guides are judged on the same level as the other races'. There just happens to be not as many good quality terran threads. And the difference between me and you is that I DO think guides should be excluded because they're not as perfect as others. Guides listed in this thread are the best and it should be pretty exclusive.
On November 19 2011 20:25 Bad_Habit wrote: did u just ignore me?
How did he ignore you? I think he explained pretty clearly in this thread why your guide isn't in here. There's a reason why monk is a blue poster and that's because he know what he's doing so instead of being rude you should thank him for the work he's put into remaking this thread.
Maybe if you ask in a nicer manner for some constructive criticism on how to improve your formating and organization of your guide you'd be able to fix the problems(and get added) instead of just arguing for the sake of it.
Thank you so much for creating an updated version of this thread. I used to visit the old one a lot, but it was falling terribly out of date. Much appreciated!!!!
On November 19 2011 20:25 Bad_Habit wrote: did u just ignore me?
How did he ignore you? I think he explained pretty clearly in this thread why your guide isn't in here. There's a reason why monk is a blue poster and that's because he know what he's doing so instead of being rude you should thank him for the work he's put into remaking this thread.
Maybe if you ask in a nicer manner for some constructive criticism on how to improve your formating and organization of your guide you'd be able to fix the problems(and get added) instead of just arguing for the sake of it.
On November 20 2011 03:37 decaf wrote: So, what about the guides I posted?
I'll add the ZvP one with mutas, as I think it has good content. However, I think it still needs some formatting fixes such as getting rid of the mass of spoiler tags. In addition, I disagree with your assessment to go muta straight after you scout a robo. Here's an extreme example. In close position metal if you head straight for mutas, a 1-2 colossi push can easily break you.
Aight. I always wondered how I add text with a scroll bar so I could make the BO look real nice, maybe you know how to do that, I just don't find the option.. Plus a real fast robo bay to do a colossi timing is pretty all in and should be treated as such. I didn't add it, since I haven't played against it very often so I'm not sure if mutas can hold it (although I typically fail with it, but maybe that's just me not having played against it a whole lot), but the spire will be the right choice anyways. I'll add it if I have the time. About the format, I think I'll remove some spoilers because it's not nice too look at it, but that's personal preference I guess.
On November 20 2011 06:42 NuKedUFirst wrote: Wish liquipedia had more guides such as the ones mentioned in the OP..Thanks for putting all of these together!
HoTS is going to hit the Strategy section and Liquipedia like a bomb..
Oh man, I just read this and I'm literally shaking with excitement at the thought =p.
On November 20 2011 03:37 decaf wrote: So, what about the guides I posted?
I'll add the ZvP one with mutas, as I think it has good content. However, I think it still needs some formatting fixes such as getting rid of the mass of spoiler tags. In addition, I disagree with your assessment to go muta straight after you scout a robo. Here's an extreme example. In close position metal if you head straight for mutas, a 1-2 colossi push can easily break you.
Hasn't it been more or less settled that the majority of readers prefer the use of spoiler tags as opposed to walls of text though ?
On November 20 2011 03:37 decaf wrote: So, what about the guides I posted?
I'll add the ZvP one with mutas, as I think it has good content. However, I think it still needs some formatting fixes such as getting rid of the mass of spoiler tags. In addition, I disagree with your assessment to go muta straight after you scout a robo. Here's an extreme example. In close position metal if you head straight for mutas, a 1-2 colossi push can easily break you.
Hasn't it been more or less settled that the majority of readers prefer the use of spoiler tags as opposed to walls of text though ?
People have been pointing it out: There aren't many good terran strategy threads around. Makes me sad There not enough Liquid Terran players or not enough good ones?
HoTS is going to hit the Strategy section and Liquipedia like a bomb..
With an already full user base, there WILL be a lot of experimenting in the first few months, agreed. I hope to see a lot more strategies be created.
On November 20 2011 03:37 decaf wrote: So, what about the guides I posted?
I'll add the ZvP one with mutas, as I think it has good content. However, I think it still needs some formatting fixes such as getting rid of the mass of spoiler tags. In addition, I disagree with your assessment to go muta straight after you scout a robo. Here's an extreme example. In close position metal if you head straight for mutas, a 1-2 colossi push can easily break you.
I've changed the format a little bit and included your colossus example. that and the all in is the only 2 cases in which you don't go mutas vs robo though (thx for pointing it out, it occured to me after I had written the thread and I forgot to add it)
On November 18 2011 19:14 NrGmonk wrote: Ok why Bad_Habit's guide wasn't initially included:
Content: As stated in the OP, guides with more standard play are more likely to be included. Guides have to be over the top for them if they're not of standard play.
Format: Probably the biggest reason it wasn't included. Everyone's already touched on this.
Professionalism: There's posts of 2 people who rage at the end of his "guide". This seems like more worthy of a blog than anything.
Btw most of these criterion can be found in the OP.
Now here's a list of things that did not further his cause after he asked:
He gave no reasons to convince me otherwise except "I worked hard on it", which everyone could claim about their guides.
Claiming that I'm biased because he 6 pool'd me twice and any teammates numerous times when I've never heard of him in my life. Now, he just made it personal.
The guides people mention that are worse than his 6 pool thread are all from the original thread I copied. I was very lenient about the threads I cut and I will probably cut some more in the future. In addition, I can assure you that they are all better formatted than Bad_Habit's thread.
However, if I, or anyone, is able to create a "Recommended Strategy Guide" without it being closed, my concerns/argument may be dismissed
No idea what that means.
I'll just be straight out frank because I think my first post about my concerns was perfectly polite, considerate, and humble. You might be a busy guy but that's no excuse for what seems to be a reoccuring cold or hostile attitude from your posts, let alone what seems to be an evasive personality. I just typed up a well written post, and you simply dismiss it. How can anyone possibly NOT understand what I meant? (If I find that many others also do not understand, then dismiss this).
You created this thread, it doesn't matter how much time you put into it. If this guide is made for the community, then you better be more open and listen to the community, even if you disagree with them and say why.
You're also being a bit hypocritical. Like someone else pointed out, you included some guides which were not standard at all and you say that you only want to include standard guides? This is not a criteria I agree with. A strategy is a strategy, it doesn't have to be a "solid", or "safe" strategy in order to be "recommended". Cheese, all-ins, etc., random build orders that might be good to throw out in a Bo5 match, as long as they are of good quality, should be included. Also you mentioned you don't have a minimum amount of guides per MU/race? Then why is one of your reasons for including the iEchoic TvT build because you didn't want to leave the TvT section blank?
That's why I said, "However, if I, or anyone, is able to create a "Recommended Strategy Guide" without it being closed, my concerns/argument may be dismissed"
Straight out what it means it this: I am quite against the policy/procedures of this thread, and I would rather make my own recommended strategy guide thread, because if everything comes down to your say in the end, then it'll just become a "these are the threads I recommend" game. For example, the spoilers in decaf's guide, that should not be something that holds a guide from being recommended, especially since a lot of people have stated in a previous thread that zatic (right?) opened regarding him being annoyed at threads with lots of spoilers, unless you were unaware of that.
Thing is, if I make my own, and then the mods close it and say there is already such a thread, then that would only support the fact that your thread is a community thread and you should, therefore, listen more to the opinions of others. And I'm pretty sure the mods don't want more than 1 such thread, but if they agree with the way you are handling things now, then I guess there's nothing for me to say to express my disgust besides what I have already stated.
If they don't close it, then I could, theoretically, make my own thread and do things the way I want, too.
Edit: I also don't understand why a cheese has to be standard. If a guide is good enough, it should be able to prove if it works or not, with good replays, timings, explanations, etc. The same goes for strategies that aren't cheesy -- sure it is harder to "prove" that they work, but there are so many factors in the game that, if you can't prove the strategy to not work, then it means it does work. It shouldn't have to work 100% of the time even when you're fully scouted. The game is about asymmetrical information.
Also, how will a guide that explains that it does work (and no one can "prove" that it doesn't work) receive more feedback if it's not recommended? Yes you can say it should be improved first because otherwise it's not a high quality guide, but like I said, unless someone proves it to not work, I think the benefit of improving these guides outweighs the small risk in the build "not working".
On November 19 2011 20:25 Bad_Habit wrote: did u just ignore me?
How did he ignore you? I think he explained pretty clearly in this thread why your guide isn't in here. There's a reason why monk is a blue poster and that's because he know what he's doing so instead of being rude you should thank him for the work he's put into remaking this thread.
Maybe if you ask in a nicer manner for some constructive criticism on how to improve your formating and organization of your guide you'd be able to fix the problems(and get added) instead of just arguing for the sake of it.
Also, I don't mean disrespect to blue posters nor to say they aren't knowledgable about strategy, but this kind of post is just utterly ridiculous and is quite inaccurate. NrGMonk, on the other hand, provided a good explanation of the events between him and Bad_Habit, who keeps BM'ing him, so Monk's decision to stop discussing/arguing with Bad_Habit is justified.
Ok for the people arguing for that 6 pool guide no lol. When new people are trying to learn to play they are not trying to learn how to do 6 pool the best. They want to learn to play... 6 pool is nice and all I guess but for the new person looking for strategies to learn (because be honest who would have fun only 6 pooling anyway? lol). A 6 pool guide is not a strategy I would recommend learning if you are just learning the game or trying to hit that next rank to compete with people of that skill level.
On November 22 2011 06:01 blade55555 wrote: Ok for the people arguing for that 6 pool guide no lol. When new people are trying to learn to play they are not trying to learn how to do 6 pool the best. They want to learn to play... 6 pool is nice and all I guess but for the new person looking for strategies to learn (because be honest who would have fun only 6 pooling anyway? lol). A 6 pool guide is not a strategy I would recommend learning if you are just learning the game or trying to hit that next rank to compete with people of that skill level.
Perhaps there should be a separate category/label, like the "standard" builds like 1 rax expand that is done all the time, should be labeled with "standard" or etc., to show that noobs who want to play "the real way" should check those out.
He definitely should edit and fix up his guide (format especially), but there are some people who just wanna 6 pool time to time . Anyways, he gives 3-5 different "6 pools" actually.
Cus for example, I don't think a noob should be learning something like synystyr's marine tank banshee anti-colossus build. It might work well for them sure, but something like 1 rax expand should be better right? and there are other such not so friendly noob strats, like iechoic which is hard to do
On November 22 2011 06:01 blade55555 wrote: Ok for the people arguing for that 6 pool guide no lol. When new people are trying to learn to play they are not trying to learn how to do 6 pool the best. They want to learn to play... 6 pool is nice and all I guess but for the new person looking for strategies to learn (because be honest who would have fun only 6 pooling anyway? lol). A 6 pool guide is not a strategy I would recommend learning if you are just learning the game or trying to hit that next rank to compete with people of that skill level.
Are these recommended threads recommended if you want to get better or if you want to find the best guide on a certain strategy? According to my definition it's the latter and thus it should be included (after the format gets changed a little bit).
On November 22 2011 06:01 blade55555 wrote: Ok for the people arguing for that 6 pool guide no lol. When new people are trying to learn to play they are not trying to learn how to do 6 pool the best. They want to learn to play... 6 pool is nice and all I guess but for the new person looking for strategies to learn (because be honest who would have fun only 6 pooling anyway? lol). A 6 pool guide is not a strategy I would recommend learning if you are just learning the game or trying to hit that next rank to compete with people of that skill level.
Are these recommended threads recommended if you want to get better or if you want to find the best guide on a certain strategy? According to my definition it's the latter and thus it should be included (after the format gets changed a little bit).
This might be the problem, and i was gonna mention that. I'm thinking the latter. With good organization you should be able to show all kinds of guides and express why they are recommended (like with labels, creative/standard/cheese/etc.)
And of course by "get better" you mean by get better in the long run, right? :D (which would be to improve macro etc.)
What better seal of approval do you need than Leenock doing an eco 7 pool vs Naniwa on Dual Sight in game 3 of the MLG final?
I realise it's the done thing to aspire towards 'standard play' but when you really break things down to their basics, these are just a set of openings like any other and Bad_Habit's thread does a good job of shedding light on all of the intricacies involved in such an aggressive early play. Not only in regards to how to successfully carry them out but also how to defend against them thanks to inclusions like White-Ra's little analysis session and some discussion of the unit control tricks you can employ.
Aside from the bm element I struggle to see how there is any real case for not including it...
I'll just be straight out frank because I think my first post about my concerns was perfectly polite, considerate, and humble. You might be a busy guy but that's no excuse for what seems to be a reoccuring cold or hostile attitude from your posts, let alone what seems to be an evasive personality. I just typed up a well written post, and you simply dismiss it. How can anyone possibly NOT understand what I meant? (If I find that many others also do not understand, then dismiss this).
I was trying to be polite as well. I honestly don't know how I'm being cold and hostile from. Is it the bullet-points? Because I just find that organizes my thoughts better. And I don't know how I'm being evasive, as I've been trying to directly respond to everyone in this thread in a timely matter. The only part of your post that I didn't understand was that one line I quoted.
You created this thread, it doesn't matter how much time you put into it. If this guide is made for the community, then you better be more open and listen to the community, even if you disagree with them and say why.
I don't mind having a group of people decide what guides should be in here, but I'm not going to listen to 2-3 people saying "include this guide" without good reasons.
You're also being a bit hypocritical. Like someone else pointed out, you included some guides which were not standard at all and you say that you only want to include standard guides? This is not a criteria I agree with. A strategy is a strategy, it doesn't have to be a "solid", or "safe" strategy in order to be "recommended". Cheese, all-ins, etc., random build orders that might be good to throw out in a Bo5 match, as long as they are of good quality, should be included.
I never said I'd only include standard strategies. As I've said before, if guides aren't standard, I have a harder time judging if they're good or not, so standard strategies have an easier time getting in. There are some strategies in there that are way not standard and not of that high quality, because they're from the original thread. When I add a historical section, those are getting moved too.
Also you mentioned you don't have a minimum amount of guides per MU/race? Then why is one of your reasons for including the iEchoic TvT build because you didn't want to leave the TvT section blank?
Ok, I don't want to leave a whole section blank and iEchoic's guide is of very good quality. I'm not going to remove it, but will probably move it to the "historical section". I still think my policies aren't that hypocritical at all here.
That's why I said, "However, if I, or anyone, is able to create a "Recommended Strategy Guide" without it being closed, my concerns/argument may be dismissed"
Straight out what it means it this: I am quite against the policy/procedures of this thread, and I would rather make my own recommended strategy guide thread, because if everything comes down to your say in the end, then it'll just become a "these are the threads I recommend" game. For example, the spoilers in decaf's guide, that should not be something that holds a guide from being recommended, especially since a lot of people have stated in a previous thread that zatic (right?) opened regarding him being annoyed at threads with lots of spoilers, unless you were unaware of that.
I added his guide and was just giving him suggestions on how to improve it. I bet even decaf will admit that he way overused spoiler tags in his thread previous.
Edit: I also don't understand why a cheese has to be standard. If a guide is good enough, it should be able to prove if it works or not, with good replays, timings, explanations, etc. The same goes for strategies that aren't cheesy -- sure it is harder to "prove" that they work, but there are so many factors in the game that, if you can't prove the strategy to not work, then it means it does work. It shouldn't have to work 100% of the time even when you're fully scouted. The game is about asymmetrical information.
I actually agree with this.
Also, how will a guide that explains that it does work (and no one can "prove" that it doesn't work) receive more feedback if it's not recommended? Yes you can say it should be improved first because otherwise it's not a high quality guide, but like I said, unless someone proves it to not work, I think the benefit of improving these guides outweighs the small risk in the build "not working".
A "recommended" thread should be all high quality threads that don't need much work. A noob should be able to read it, confident that it contains valid information. The main purpose of this thread is mostly to have newer posters look at it. I doubt guides will receive anymore feedback just because it's "recommended" in this thread.
On November 19 2011 20:25 Bad_Habit wrote: did u just ignore me?
How did he ignore you? I think he explained pretty clearly in this thread why your guide isn't in here. There's a reason why monk is a blue poster and that's because he know what he's doing so instead of being rude you should thank him for the work he's put into remaking this thread.
Maybe if you ask in a nicer manner for some constructive criticism on how to improve your formating and organization of your guide you'd be able to fix the problems(and get added) instead of just arguing for the sake of it.
Also, I don't mean disrespect to blue posters nor to say they aren't knowledgable about strategy, but this kind of post is just utterly ridiculous and is quite inaccurate. NrGMonk, on the other hand, provided a good explanation of the events between him and Bad_Habit, who keeps BM'ing him, so Monk's decision to stop discussing/arguing with Bad_Habit is justified.
I pretty much fully agree with Vandroy here. Don't see why it's ridiculous or inaccurate.
If I hope on the bandwagon with you guys, will you also get my 3 rax guide up there while you're at it ? If I can chose a spot, I'd like it right over IEchoic's 2fact2port guide.
I was trying to be polite as well. I honestly don't know how I'm being cold and hostile from. Is it the bullet-points? Because I just find that organizes my thoughts better. And I don't know how I'm being evasive, as I've been trying to directly respond to everyone in this thread in a timely matter. The only part of your post that I didn't understand was that one line I quoted.
Ok, nevermind then. I understand "Concise" tone, where you leave out fluff and etc., I just got a bit frustrated and I couldn't tell if you were meaning to be cold or not. Since you didn't comment on any other part of the post, I guess I wrongly assumed you were trying to be "evasive"
I don't mind having a group of people decide what guides should be in here, but I'm not going to listen to 2-3 people saying "include this guide" without good reasons.
Agreed, this opinion of mine was based on bad information, I thought you didn't include decaf's guide.
I never said I'd only include standard strategies. As I've said before, if guides aren't standard, I have a harder time judging if they're good or not, so standard strategies have an easier time getting in. There are some strategies in there that are way not standard and not of that high quality, because they're from the original thread. When I add a historical section, those are getting moved too.
Sorry, another misunderstanding on my part. The criteria you listed are just basic, general guidelines that should occur in most threads.
Ok, I don't want to leave a whole section blank and iEchoic's guide is of very good quality. I'm not going to remove it, but will probably move it to the "historical section". I still think my policies aren't that hypocritical at all here.
Ok, that makes sense.
I added his guide and was just giving him suggestions on how to improve it. I bet even decaf will admit that he way overused spoiler tags in his thread previous.
Again, sorry for misunderstanding.
A "recommended" thread should be all high quality threads that don't need much work. A noob should be able to read it, confident that it contains valid information. The main purpose of this thread is mostly to have newer posters look at it. I doubt guides will receive anymore feedback just because it's "recommended" in this thread.
Hm, you're right, I was throwing out an idea that I had only just thought up. Seems like it was a pretty bad one xD
I pretty much fully agree with Vandroy here. Don't see why it's ridiculous or inaccurate.
My language was a bit extreme, but I mean he did ask for help and that he didn't quite know how to format it (whatever that might mean), and "did u just ignore me?" can come off and be interpreted as rude, but you never know if he's just using a neutral, concise syntax/tone/thing lol.
Anyways, thanks for responding.
On November 22 2011 06:57 Geiko wrote: If I hope on the bandwagon with you guys, will you also get my 3 rax guide up there while you're at it ? If I can chose a spot, I'd like it right over IEchoic's 2fact2port guide.
I was trying to be polite as well. I honestly don't know how I'm being cold and hostile from. Is it the bullet-points? Because I just find that organizes my thoughts better. And I don't know how I'm being evasive, as I've been trying to directly respond to everyone in this thread in a timely matter. The only part of your post that I didn't understand was that one line I quoted.
Ok, nevermind then. I understand "Concise" tone, where you leave out fluff and etc., I just got a bit frustrated and I couldn't tell if you were meaning to be cold or not. Since you didn't comment on any other part of the post, I guess I wrongly assumed you were trying to be "evasive"
I don't mind having a group of people decide what guides should be in here, but I'm not going to listen to 2-3 people saying "include this guide" without good reasons.
Agreed, this opinion of mine was based on bad information, I thought you didn't include decaf's guide.
I never said I'd only include standard strategies. As I've said before, if guides aren't standard, I have a harder time judging if they're good or not, so standard strategies have an easier time getting in. There are some strategies in there that are way not standard and not of that high quality, because they're from the original thread. When I add a historical section, those are getting moved too.
Sorry, another misunderstanding on my part. The criteria you listed are just basic, general guidelines that should occur in most threads.
Ok, I don't want to leave a whole section blank and iEchoic's guide is of very good quality. I'm not going to remove it, but will probably move it to the "historical section". I still think my policies aren't that hypocritical at all here.
I added his guide and was just giving him suggestions on how to improve it. I bet even decaf will admit that he way overused spoiler tags in his thread previous.
A "recommended" thread should be all high quality threads that don't need much work. A noob should be able to read it, confident that it contains valid information. The main purpose of this thread is mostly to have newer posters look at it. I doubt guides will receive anymore feedback just because it's "recommended" in this thread.
Hm, you're right, I was throwing out an idea that I had only just thought up. Seems like it was a pretty bad one xD
I pretty much fully agree with Vandroy here. Don't see why it's ridiculous or inaccurate.
My language was a bit extreme, but I mean he did ask for help and that he didn't quite know how to format it (whatever that might mean), and "did u just ignore me?" can come off and be interpreted as rude, but you never know if he's just using a neutral, concise syntax/tone/thing lol.
On November 22 2011 06:57 Geiko wrote: If I hope on the bandwagon with you guys, will you also get my 3 rax guide up there while you're at it ? If I can chose a spot, I'd like it right over IEchoic's 2fact2port guide.
On November 22 2011 06:57 Geiko wrote: If I hope on the bandwagon with you guys, will you also get my 3 rax guide up there while you're at it ? If I can chose a spot, I'd like it right over IEchoic's 2fact2port guide.
can you link so we can see? =D
Sure can ! I dun diddly don't need for no one to be askin' me twice to show my cheese guides :http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223517
And I don't know how I'm being evasive, as I've been trying to directly respond to everyone in this thread in a timely matter.
Well sort of. You seem to have completely ignored my request to have some sort of mention, seeing as pretty much the entire thing was written by me, but there you go.........
And I don't know how I'm being evasive, as I've been trying to directly respond to everyone in this thread in a timely matter.
Well sort of. You seem to have completely ignored my request to have some sort of mention, seeing as pretty much the entire thing was written by me, but there you go.........
I'll get to that eventually when I add the "historic" section.
There could just be a separate spoilered section for guides that aren't 'blue poster certified' or something like that. Basically guides that have been suggested but refused for various reasons, whether it is formatting, detail or general quality. A use these at your own peril section so to speak. Given that would be quite a bit more work.
I feel a bit sorry for you Monk. You're taking on/have done a lot of work which is very useful for the community, but the very nature of recommended threads is subjective. It means you'll inevitably get criticisms when you should be getting praise.
I feel you should consider adding a couple of things on the terran section, specially TvT.
Any noob who will come to this thread will assume going pure air is the way to go standard in the matchup, and it is not. I agree that iEchoic's is one of the most informative threads there are out there, very clean and so on, and I feel i'm not qualifyed enough to say "hey, put on THIS specific thread", but anyway, I hope you take notice on it, as newbie terrans will be a little bit lost upon reading your Terran section.
Thanks for the work, it's a very useful section when you are lost
I Think it's worth noting the in-depth look at TvP early game scouting in this guide, even if your not going to use Warden's 1:1:1 build the thread is still worth checking out because of it, IMO
On November 24 2011 21:14 FirstGear wrote: There could just be a separate spoilered section for guides that aren't 'blue poster certified' or something like that. Basically guides that have been suggested but refused for various reasons, whether it is formatting, detail or general quality. A use these at your own peril section so to speak. Given that would be quite a bit more work.
I feel a bit sorry for you Monk. You're taking on/have done a lot of work which is very useful for the community, but the very nature of recommended threads is subjective. It means you'll inevitably get criticisms when you should be getting praise.
Yea i might do this eventually
On November 26 2011 18:40 RamonMcGrady wrote: I feel you should consider adding a couple of things on the terran section, specially TvT.
Any noob who will come to this thread will assume going pure air is the way to go standard in the matchup, and it is not. I agree that iEchoic's is one of the most informative threads there are out there, very clean and so on, and I feel i'm not qualifyed enough to say "hey, put on THIS specific thread", but anyway, I hope you take notice on it, as newbie terrans will be a little bit lost upon reading your Terran section.
Thanks for the work, it's a very useful section when you are lost
Nothing too good has come up tbh. Also, iEchoic's thread is marked "creative style"
I Think it's worth noting the in-depth look at TvP early game scouting in this guide, even if your not going to use Warden's 1:1:1 build the thread is still worth checking out because of it, IMO
The Terran section is pathetic. It's pretty much identical to the list in the old thread.
There's no mech builds listed for TvZ. There's no bio builds listed for TvP. The only TvT build listed is so outdated it doesn't deserve to be there. If I were a newb Terran looking for help how to play each matchup, this thread would be exactly the wrong thing read. It shouldn't be that way.
There have been plenty of good new Terran threads, many of which have already been mentioned. Why aren't they listed in the main post? Because their formatting isn't pretty enough? Because they don't have a gazillion replays? It's better to have something than nothing.
Also, I'm not qualified to speak about other races, but I think it's ridiculous that there are no all-in builds listed for any race. Since when has Strategy Section become "macro builds only"? *every single pro* mixes all-ins into their play. 6 pool deserves a spot. 6 rax deserves a spot. 4 gate deserves a spot. I don't know much about PvP but I do know that if you PvP on Tal'Darim Altar you better know to how to 4 Gate. Too bad there isn't a guide on that.
I think the content in such an official thread should be decided on by the community instead of a single person. I don't mean any offense to you Monk, but I don't think its right for one person to judge what's a good guide for all three races. Especially when they're only low masters in one race. (not saying I'm any better)
Maybe if the mods would collectively select a representative for each race and give each of them edit rights to the thread? Or maybe open it up to all blue posters to edit? That way we wouldn't be relying upon one person to always keep it updated.
Thank you, i am a toss player and i think that this thread is a great "guide to the guides" for that. I especially like the "standard" mark on the strategies.
Although i think that for the toss it's very good, i think that the Zerg guides are a little bit lacking and the Terran guides are severely lacking. My point is that maybe those sections can be updated so we'll have a "standard" mark for those races too.
On December 08 2011 19:06 razz wrote: Thank you, i am a toss player and i think that this thread is a great "guide to the guides" for that. I especially like the "standard" mark on the strategies.
Although i think that for the toss it's very good, i think that the Zerg guides are a little bit lacking and the Terran guides are severely lacking. My point is that maybe those sections can be updated so we'll have a "standard" mark for those races too.
It's kinda just a coincidence that 4 of the most prolific writers of guides are Protoss players. As I've said before, I want all guides in here to be of a very high standard and I'm not going to add guides just so all 3 races have the same number of guides. You should blame terran/zerg players for not writing enough high quality guides =P.
In a somewhat related matter, I've been a bit busy with other stuff to update this recently, but I'll get to it soon. I've had a few PMs and requests in this thread and I haven't forgotten about you all.
I Think it's worth noting the in-depth look at TvP early game scouting in this guide, even if your not going to use Warden's 1:1:1 build the thread is still worth checking out because of it, IMO
It's already there.
I realize the link is already posted for the 1:1:1 Deathball, what I meant was, its worth noting in the OP the scouting info within the guide. Even if your not going to use his 1:1:1 strategy, the thread is still worth reading just for the scouting breakdown.
Just did a huge update, pretty much adding all the suggestions so far. Added a historical section. Unfortunately, the terran section got even smaller, so I expect more QQ's incoming.
On December 11 2011 03:08 NrGmonk wrote: Just did a huge update, pretty much adding all the suggestions so far. Added a historical section. Unfortunately, the terran section got even smaller, so I expect more QQ's incoming.
Thanks for including my guide ^^.
Lol you should just put those terran guides hostage and slowly take them out one by one with each update until they start making more of them. Glad drewbies guide got included though, that was quite a feast to read.
shouldn't this thread be called "SC2 Strategy Recommended Guides"? right in the first line, it says that the OP of this thread contains only the highest quality guides. if it's not going to include quality discussion threads too, then it should just be "Guides".
On December 14 2011 09:08 listal wrote: shouldn't this thread be called "SC2 Strategy Recommended Guides"? right in the first line, it says that the OP of this thread contains only the highest quality guides. if it's not going to include quality discussion threads too, then it should just be "Guides".
It includes threads and not guides as well. Word choice not so important here.
On December 08 2011 19:06 razz wrote: Thank you, i am a toss player and i think that this thread is a great "guide to the guides" for that. I especially like the "standard" mark on the strategies.
Although i think that for the toss it's very good, i think that the Zerg guides are a little bit lacking and the Terran guides are severely lacking. My point is that maybe those sections can be updated so we'll have a "standard" mark for those races too.
It's kinda just a coincidence that 4 of the most prolific writers of guides are Protoss players. As I've said before, I want all guides in here to be of a very high standard and I'm not going to add guides just so all 3 races have the same number of guides. You should blame terran/zerg players for not writing enough high quality guides =P.
In a somewhat related matter, I've been a bit busy with other stuff to update this recently, but I'll get to it soon. I've had a few PMs and requests in this thread and I haven't forgotten about you all.
Uh...yeahhhh. And I'm sure its a coincidence that the author of this thread plays Protoss at low masters, and includes several of his own guides. Of course that has nothing to do with the lack of T/Z guides.
On December 08 2011 19:06 razz wrote: Thank you, i am a toss player and i think that this thread is a great "guide to the guides" for that. I especially like the "standard" mark on the strategies.
Although i think that for the toss it's very good, i think that the Zerg guides are a little bit lacking and the Terran guides are severely lacking. My point is that maybe those sections can be updated so we'll have a "standard" mark for those races too.
It's kinda just a coincidence that 4 of the most prolific writers of guides are Protoss players. As I've said before, I want all guides in here to be of a very high standard and I'm not going to add guides just so all 3 races have the same number of guides. You should blame terran/zerg players for not writing enough high quality guides =P.
In a somewhat related matter, I've been a bit busy with other stuff to update this recently, but I'll get to it soon. I've had a few PMs and requests in this thread and I haven't forgotten about you all.
Uh...yeahhhh. And I'm sure its a coincidence that the author of this thread plays Protoss at low masters, and includes several of his own guides. Of course that has nothing to do with the lack of T/Z guides.
Good grief.
Lol, first of all from my guides you can obviously tell I'm not low masters. 2nd of all you can't say I don't write the most detailed guides on this forum.
On December 08 2011 19:06 razz wrote: Thank you, i am a toss player and i think that this thread is a great "guide to the guides" for that. I especially like the "standard" mark on the strategies.
Although i think that for the toss it's very good, i think that the Zerg guides are a little bit lacking and the Terran guides are severely lacking. My point is that maybe those sections can be updated so we'll have a "standard" mark for those races too.
It's kinda just a coincidence that 4 of the most prolific writers of guides are Protoss players. As I've said before, I want all guides in here to be of a very high standard and I'm not going to add guides just so all 3 races have the same number of guides. You should blame terran/zerg players for not writing enough high quality guides =P.
In a somewhat related matter, I've been a bit busy with other stuff to update this recently, but I'll get to it soon. I've had a few PMs and requests in this thread and I haven't forgotten about you all.
Uh...yeahhhh. And I'm sure its a coincidence that the author of this thread plays Protoss at low masters, and includes several of his own guides. Of course that has nothing to do with the lack of T/Z guides.
Good grief.
please forgive monk for contributing. it's a problem and he's doing his best to stop
lol back in 2010 I already thought the Terran guide section on TL was weak, looks like not much has happened since, 2 111 guides for TvP and 1 2fact2port for TvT.
I know you prefer the zealot triple stalker 1 gate FE, but it's not a settled matter. The zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot 1 gate FE is at least as safe as the 20 nexus opening, and it's more economical than either the 20 nexus or the zealot triple stalker openings.
I know you prefer the zealot triple stalker 1 gate FE, but it's not a settled matter. The zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot 1 gate FE is at least as safe as the 20 nexus opening, and it's more economical than either the 20 nexus or the zealot triple stalker openings.
I know you prefer the zealot triple stalker 1 gate FE, but it's not a settled matter. The zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot 1 gate FE is at least as safe as the 20 nexus opening, and it's more economical than either the 20 nexus or the zealot triple stalker openings.
Tbh I have no problem with the actual build. I just didn't include it because of 2 main reasons: 1. The guide is not THAT detailed. I think it could use a bit more stuff. 2. There's no links to pro games. These are 2 of my original criteria for guides to be included in here and I didn't want to break any of my rules by playing favorites.
On January 09 2012 06:04 TangSC wrote: Hello Monk,
I don't have time to read over it carefully, but it seems good from a first glance. I'll add this. If you read this thread again, can you write your own description? I probably won't be able to sum it up well without carefully reading it.
Thanks for keeping this updated! Very professional and helpful. But, may I recommend the TangSC guides? Very good university lectures on improving, being agressive, etc. I think that those are really in depth and could help a lot for Zerg especially (he's a Zerg player). Good for the general section I think.
Hey Monk Recently wrote a guide on an All-In build for ZvT. I know recommended threads are geared more towards macro/standard play, but the guide consists of a detailed look at an aggressive build that is very common in Korean top level ZvT, as well as step-by-step analysis for players who want to experiment with more aggressive styles.
Not sure if this is the right place to request, but I couldn't think of any other place.
Would it be possible if people could create more General guides to match ups? (responses to scouted information, army compositions, ratio of units, building placement, timing windows ect) I understand that this is quite a selfish request but after reading many of the guides I'm still confused about a lot of general things. (Yes I've thought about making a [H] thread but a guide sized post asking for help wasn't an appealing thought. The amount of replays I would have to post to show all my problems in every matchup would be rediculous as well)
Is there a definitive resource for the best and most up-to-date Terran strategies and build orders? The Liquipedia section itself states that it's outdated somewhat and to read at your own risk. I'd like to have access to all successful builds, whether it's macro or all-in etc.
On January 28 2012 02:18 TangSC wrote: Thanks Nuclease <3
Hey Monk Recently wrote a guide on an All-In build for ZvT. I know recommended threads are geared more towards macro/standard play, but the guide consists of a detailed look at an aggressive build that is very common in Korean top level ZvT, as well as step-by-step analysis for players who want to experiment with more aggressive styles.
On January 31 2012 12:53 ctypewriter wrote: Not sure if this is the right place to request, but I couldn't think of any other place.
Would it be possible if people could create more General guides to match ups? (responses to scouted information, army compositions, ratio of units, building placement, timing windows ect) I understand that this is quite a selfish request but after reading many of the guides I'm still confused about a lot of general things. (Yes I've thought about making a [H] thread but a guide sized post asking for help wasn't an appealing thought. The amount of replays I would have to post to show all my problems in every matchup would be rediculous as well)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're asking for a "How to Play Starcraft 2" guide. Don't know exactly what you're looking for.
On February 01 2012 08:17 SC2NeCro wrote: Is there a definitive resource for the best and most up-to-date Terran strategies and build orders? The Liquipedia section itself states that it's outdated somewhat and to read at your own risk. I'd like to have access to all successful builds, whether it's macro or all-in etc.
Nope, not really. Terran is limited in its guides. =/
On January 31 2012 12:53 ctypewriter wrote: Not sure if this is the right place to request, but I couldn't think of any other place.
Would it be possible if people could create more General guides to match ups? (responses to scouted information, army compositions, ratio of units, building placement, timing windows ect) I understand that this is quite a selfish request but after reading many of the guides I'm still confused about a lot of general things. (Yes I've thought about making a [H] thread but a guide sized post asking for help wasn't an appealing thought. The amount of replays I would have to post to show all my problems in every matchup would be rediculous as well)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're asking for a "How to Play Starcraft 2" guide. Don't know exactly what you're looking for.
What I was requesting was guides such as "General ZvP" or "General TvP", but "How to Play Starcraft 2" would be pretty accurate.
Please note that I am not directing this obviously rediculous and selfish request to any single person, but the general population who has a strong understanding of mechanics (aka GM/Masters).
For the record, I am a low diamond player, and I feel like I am missing way too many points on each matchup. Examples of some would include ideal army compositions (Colossi vs Archons ect), making sim citys to your advantage (group up buildings vs making small chokes), as well as when and how to be agressive (walking into the map to worry the other player vs turtling + harass). There are also a few trillion other things but these are just some examples of information which would greatly help me as well as many other TLers.
Even if the whole warp prism thing is really new and untested, it's still a pretty good 2base templar pvt build, so it complements the other two guides really well. Pretty cool how now there's guide on fast colossus, double forge and templar for pvt ^^
edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308972 is also extremely good imo, specifies what to scout for, when and how to react to whatever zerg is doing, while giving a pretty solid build. Plus, terrans desperately need guides even if it's not standard marine/tank.
Wow, This is a great thread. So much information for anyone at any level. Thanks for maintaining this. I'll definitely put in some time and look through some of the important looking guides with detail.
zvt: a roach opener consider adding this as well. High level guide by blade showing a roach opener against the ubiquitous reactor hellion opener, complete with repays from the Korean server
Edit: looks like its in there already, props on the speed op
Added the roach/baneling allin, mech TvZ, and the ZvT Roach opener. Moved Geiko's 3 gate defense to outdated guides. Kcdc's guide isn't proven enough imo for me to add it.
On January 31 2012 12:53 ctypewriter wrote: Not sure if this is the right place to request, but I couldn't think of any other place.
Would it be possible if people could create more General guides to match ups? (responses to scouted information, army compositions, ratio of units, building placement, timing windows ect) I understand that this is quite a selfish request but after reading many of the guides I'm still confused about a lot of general things. (Yes I've thought about making a [H] thread but a guide sized post asking for help wasn't an appealing thought. The amount of replays I would have to post to show all my problems in every matchup would be rediculous as well)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're asking for a "How to Play Starcraft 2" guide. Don't know exactly what you're looking for.
What I was requesting was guides such as "General ZvP" or "General TvP", but "How to Play Starcraft 2" would be pretty accurate.
Please note that I am not directing this obviously rediculous and selfish request to any single person, but the general population who has a strong understanding of mechanics (aka GM/Masters).
For the record, I am a low diamond player, and I feel like I am missing way too many points on each matchup. Examples of some would include ideal army compositions (Colossi vs Archons ect), making sim citys to your advantage (group up buildings vs making small chokes), as well as when and how to be agressive (walking into the map to worry the other player vs turtling + harass). There are also a few trillion other things but these are just some examples of information which would greatly help me as well as many other TLers.
Imo there are plenty of guides on TL to answer most questions. Most matchups have at least one overview thread. There are resources like the simple questions thread, race specific help me threads, and H/Q threads you can make. If all of that isn't enough, get a coach.
He has completed the series for protoss and zerg. He ONLY does safe openings for each race's 3 matchups. That is, he does the safe builds reccomended here. He starts a new character at bronze and does 4 videos to teach new players. This has surpassed EVERY guide I have ever read and got me to gold.
He gets to Gold rank 1 by the end of video 4 (4 hours of gameplay) He's a masters player on EU and professional coach.
Please add his protoss and zerg series. Watch those videos, you'll see yourself. He has a terran series coming soon.
He definitely deserves recognition. The linked video is part 4 he does a lot of explaining in part 1 for basics.
He's helped me so much i feel obligated to post here and strongly endorse his work.
He covers everything from hotkeys to the options menu.
He has completed the series for protoss and zerg. He ONLY does safe openings for each race's 3 matchups. That is, he does the safe builds reccomended here. He starts a new character at bronze and does 4 videos to teach new players. This has surpassed EVERY guide I have ever read and got me to gold.
He gets to Gold rank 1 by the end of video 4 (4 hours of gameplay) He's a masters player on EU and professional coach.
Please add his protoss and zerg series. Watch those videos, you'll see yourself. He has a terran series coming soon.
He definitely deserves recognition. The linked video is part 4 he does a lot of explaining in part 1 for basics.
He's helped me so much i feel obligated to post here and strongly endorse his work.
He covers everything from hotkeys to the options menu.
Senjai
This thread is for recommended threads. What you posted isn't a thread.
You are correct, but I feel like this stuff should be located where players come to find guides and tutorials. This is such a location. My feelings aren't important, however it might be better suited to the wiki.
Alas if you are unable to put it in the topic can you point me to where it would be best placed? EDIT: Did you take a look?
On February 14 2012 09:32 Senjai wrote: No it isn't, but It is relevant.
You are correct, but I feel like this stuff should be located where players come to find guides and tutorials. This is such a location. My feelings aren't important, however it might be better suited to the wiki.
Alas if you are unable to put it in the topic can you point me to where it would be best placed? EDIT: Did you take a look?
Just open up a strategy forum thread if you want to show people. I'm not sure if that would be considered advertising though, but probably not since it's just a youtube video. And yes, I checked out 10 seconds of it.
Well, it's not my video, so I have nothing to gain. Won't be considering advertising if I'm trying to help people :/ But you should look into more than 10 seconds, I know how awesome you are and all but, it's worth checking out, no matter the skill level. At least to reccomend to newbies like myself.
On February 01 2012 08:17 SC2NeCro wrote: Is there a definitive resource for the best and most up-to-date Terran strategies and build orders? The Liquipedia section itself states that it's outdated somewhat and to read at your own risk. I'd like to have access to all successful builds, whether it's macro or all-in etc.
There's plenty of good Terran guides in this forum. It's just that they are not listed in the OP.
Your best bet is to use advanced search, and search for "[G]" in the SC2 strategy forum. And then check out each Terran guide yourself.
Because this thread is rather poor for Terran strategy, I've been using this resource a lot: http://www.terransc.blogspot.com/ . I'm not really advertising it, it isn't my site, but maybe it fits what you are looking for. They list a ton of different builds but unfortunately they don't go too indepth.
On February 01 2012 08:17 SC2NeCro wrote: Is there a definitive resource for the best and most up-to-date Terran strategies and build orders? The Liquipedia section itself states that it's outdated somewhat and to read at your own risk. I'd like to have access to all successful builds, whether it's macro or all-in etc.
There's plenty of good Terran guides in this forum. It's just that they are not listed in the OP.
Your best bet is to use advanced search, and search for "[G]" in the SC2 strategy forum. And then check out each Terran guide yourself.
Because this thread is rather poor for Terran strategy, I've been using this resource a lot: http://www.terransc.blogspot.com/ . I'm not really advertising it, it isn't my site, but maybe it fits what you are looking for. They list a ton of different builds but unfortunately they don't go too indepth.
Blame terran players for not writing better/more guides. =P
On February 01 2012 08:17 SC2NeCro wrote: Is there a definitive resource for the best and most up-to-date Terran strategies and build orders? The Liquipedia section itself states that it's outdated somewhat and to read at your own risk. I'd like to have access to all successful builds, whether it's macro or all-in etc.
There's plenty of good Terran guides in this forum. It's just that they are not listed in the OP.
Your best bet is to use advanced search, and search for "[G]" in the SC2 strategy forum. And then check out each Terran guide yourself.
Because this thread is rather poor for Terran strategy, I've been using this resource a lot: http://www.terransc.blogspot.com/ . I'm not really advertising it, it isn't my site, but maybe it fits what you are looking for. They list a ton of different builds but unfortunately they don't go too indepth.
Blame terran players for not writing better/more guides. =P
Might not be strategy, but writing a good guide is very good way to improve your own play and also contribute at the same time. If it fits I wrote: [G] A Guide To Writing Guides.
Even if the whole warp prism thing is really new and untested, it's still a pretty good 2base templar pvt build, so it complements the other two guides really well. Pretty cool how now there's guide on fast colossus, double forge and templar for pvt ^^
monk knows that build is pretty decent--it's played against his Terran probably about 10 times. I'm agnostic as to whether it should go in the recommended threads list at this point--I think it's a really good build, but staying on 2 gates as long as it does is a pretty radical concept in today's PvT metagame, and I doubt we'll see pros trying that any time soon. Nonetheless, it actually works pretty well at my level of play, and I'm absolutely nowhere close to executing it as well as it could be executed. The skill ceiling on a multitasking-focused templar style is basically limitless.
If the thread's standard is that the build is commonly used in the pro scene, then this doesn't make the cut. But if the standard is a clear, thorough guide that can help lower level players execute and give some new ideas to higher level players, then it might be worth considering.
On November 10 2011 09:48 NrGmonk wrote: All guides recommended here are the HIGHEST quality guides on Teamliquid. As such, they all show at least a few of the following characteristics:
Contains detailed discussion on the subject
Proven to work. Thus, most of the strategies discussed in these guides have been demonstrated in pro level games.
Well organized and formatted
Written by notable, respected people
according to this, it fits the bill with 1,2,3, and 4 is a matter of personal regard While I do not agree with many of Tang's styles and guides, he does have the right to be on this list by its own limitations
On November 10 2011 09:48 NrGmonk wrote: All guides recommended here are the HIGHEST quality guides on Teamliquid. As such, they all show at least a few of the following characteristics:
Contains detailed discussion on the subject
Proven to work. Thus, most of the strategies discussed in these guides have been demonstrated in pro level games.
Well organized and formatted
Written by notable, respected people
according to this, it fits the bill with 1,2,3, and 4 is a matter of personal regard While I do not agree with many of Tang's styles and guides, he does have the right to be on this list by its own limitations
I never said I wouldn't include all-in/cheese builds. It's just that by my own "characteristics of a high quality guide", many all-in strategies don't fit the bill. I'll take a look at the guides posted on the last page sometime this week.
The metagame in PvT now revolves around getting very greedy (as maps get larger), getting that really fast nexus/CC before the gateway/barracks even goes up. Alejandrisha wrote a really comprehensive build on how to go nexus first and what to scout for and the correct reactions to that. Please do feature this build in the main page. We need more Terran QQ
this forums is good, but i think watching recents vods of high level players is a quicker way of learning the never ending meta game shifts, which can be hard to keep up. Can you maybe link some sites of updates pro vods?
It's only by quality, there are a ton of guides for PvX(PvT especially) and ZvX.
Edit: Wait I just checked, and that's not true at all. There are more Protoss and Zerg guides than Terran guides, did you mean the other way around? >< Silly me
I wish I knew this was here last year. It would have been quite helpful in getting a handle on everything.
That said, I feel some of them could be broken into competitive and none competitive articles. I can see a casual player looking to get the basics down getting overwhelmed by the size of some more competitive guides.
if i recall correctly, there was a very in-depth guide on sc2 mechanics posted this year. But after a few search, i can't find it. Anyone know what i am talking about and could provide me a link to it? Thanks
I've been playing a little SC2 the last few days after a 6 month break, and I can't win PvZ or PvP for the life of me, but that PvT build is still golden.
monk knows that build is pretty decent--it's played against his Terran probably about 10 times. I'm agnostic as to whether it should go in the recommended threads list at this point--I think it's a really good build, but staying on 2 gates as long as it does is a pretty radical concept in today's PvT metagame, and I doubt we'll see pros trying that any time soon. Nonetheless, it actually works pretty well at my level of play, and I'm absolutely nowhere close to executing it as well as it could be executed. The skill ceiling on a multitasking-focused templar style is basically limitless.
If the thread's standard is that the build is commonly used in the pro scene, then this doesn't make the cut. But if the standard is a clear, thorough guide that can help lower level players execute and give some new ideas to higher level players, then it might be worth considering.
That's actually one of the reasons i wrote the guide on the Startale build.
On September 22 2012 20:49 zzz.Sleepy wrote: Please update! TL of all places should have the most relevant and up to date compendium of guides, builds, etc.!!
On September 22 2012 20:49 zzz.Sleepy wrote: Please update! TL of all places should have the most relevant and up to date compendium of guides, builds, etc.!!
Yeah a lot of these guides are sort of outdated now.
On September 26 2012 15:17 Geiko wrote: Seems like a lot of work to update the WoL strategy section when HotS is coming in a couple of months.
Not to burst your bubble or anything but hots isn't coming out for another 5 months minimum imo. If hots were to come out in 2 months my mind would be blown. It is blizzard! :D
On September 26 2012 15:17 Geiko wrote: Seems like a lot of work to update the WoL strategy section when HotS is coming in a couple of months.
Not to burst your bubble or anything but hots isn't coming out for another 5 months minimum imo. If hots were to come out in 2 months my mind would be blown. It is blizzard! :D
I want to dream :'( I don't even have a beta key, I start all my ladder games with "necessito un beta key per favor". The thought of HotS coming soon is what keeps me going
The problem with that is, there's always been less blue Terran posters (and other contributors) than Zerg and especially Protoss. Since everything in sc2 strat is done by volunteers, your best bet is to hope more Terrans like Ver and TheDwf start writing a bit more.
Also Geiko, i have been a loyal Blizzard client for 10 years, the first time i signed up for a Beta key was with TFT. And i have never, ever received one. Join the club :D
This thread is getting some major updates, as well as the rest of the strategy forums. First up is Protoss guides. Teoita has kindly updated all the Protoss guides section so they're up to date. If you feel you wrote a good Protoss guide and would like it included, please post here. Here are the changes made today:
Took out comparison of PvP builds, put in the PvP overview.
Took out some 4gate defense stuff. At this point 3stalker rush and Alej's thread are enough.
Took out Cecil's guide on Adel's PvP.
Added Remark's guide on phoenix openings.
Changed Cecil's old DT thread with the most recent one.
Took out Arcanefrost's PvT overview.
Added kcdc's late game PvT thread.
Took out Cecil's 3gate aggression into expand.
Took out minigun's fake 3gate Robo.
Added kcdc's and Teoita's guide on 2base templar.
Added the PvZ guide.
Took out the Brown vs Losira thread.
Added monk's thread on taking a third.
Took out Time's build.
Added the guides for immortal all-in, blink all-in, alej's timing attack thread.
Took out iamke's and Cecil's threads on midgame builds, added Alej's 3base Colossus and kcdc's 3base zealot immortal instead.
Hopefully we can get the Terran and Zerg sections updated asaply!
On December 03 2012 02:01 monk. wrote: This thread is getting some major updates, as well as the rest of the strategy forums. First up is Protoss guides. Teoita has kindly updated all the Protoss guides section so they're up to date. If you feel you wrote a good Protoss guide and would like it included, please post here. Here are the changes made today:
Took out comparison of PvP builds, put in the PvP overview.
Took out some 4gate defense stuff. At this point 3stalker rush and Alej's thread are enough.
Took out Cecil's guide on Adel's PvP.
Added Remark's guide on phoenix openings.
Changed Cecil's old DT thread with the most recent one.
Took out Arcanefrost's PvT overview.
Added kcdc's late game PvT thread.
Took out Cecil's 3gate aggression into expand.
Took out minigun's fake 3gate Robo.
Added kcdc's and Teoita's guide on 2base templar.
Added the PvZ guide.
Took out the Brown vs Losira thread.
Added monk's thread on taking a third.
Took out Time's build.
Added the guides for immortal all-in, blink all-in, alej's timing attack thread.
Took out iamke's and Cecil's threads on midgame builds, added Alej's 3base Colossus and kcdc's 3base zealot immortal instead.
Hopefully we can get the Terran and Zerg sections updated asaply!
Monk there is a typo:
Build/Style/Standard: Startale 2Base Templar Open with a fast expansion, tech safely to High Templar to take a thread and head into the lategame
On December 03 2012 02:01 monk. wrote: This thread is getting some major updates, as well as the rest of the strategy forums. First up is Protoss guides. Teoita has kindly updated all the Protoss guides section so they're up to date. If you feel you wrote a good Protoss guide and would like it included, please post here. Here are the changes made today:
Took out comparison of PvP builds, put in the PvP overview.
Took out some 4gate defense stuff. At this point 3stalker rush and Alej's thread are enough.
Took out Cecil's guide on Adel's PvP.
Added Remark's guide on phoenix openings.
Changed Cecil's old DT thread with the most recent one.
Took out Arcanefrost's PvT overview.
Added kcdc's late game PvT thread.
Took out Cecil's 3gate aggression into expand.
Took out minigun's fake 3gate Robo.
Added kcdc's and Teoita's guide on 2base templar.
Added the PvZ guide.
Took out the Brown vs Losira thread.
Added monk's thread on taking a third.
Took out Time's build.
Added the guides for immortal all-in, blink all-in, alej's timing attack thread.
Took out iamke's and Cecil's threads on midgame builds, added Alej's 3base Colossus and kcdc's 3base zealot immortal instead.
Hopefully we can get the Terran and Zerg sections updated asaply!
Monk there is a typo:
Build/Style/Standard: Startale 2Base Templar Open with a fast expansion, tech safely to High Templar to take a thread and head into the lategame
Fixed this, a few other typos, and added this:
Build/Opening: PvP HerO's Safe Stargate opening One of LiquidHero's main builds in PvP, and one of the safest Phoenix openings possible.
Next up is Zerg Guides! Thanks to Natalya for all the updates! Here's the list of changes for Zergs. If your Zerg guide was not included, feel free to ask about it here. We most likely just missed it. General, Terran, and 2v2 Guides incoming soon.
Style/Standard: ZvP Roach Ling Muta One of the most popular ZvP styles, especially effective on large maps
Added:
Opening A Guide on Early ZvZ: How to stay Alive and Set Yourself Up for the Midgame Usefull to know how to defend a standard, non all-iny ling-bane agression when you yourself open with a standard macro build. In other words, how to defend the early, non-alliny agression with your macro build in the early game. This thread only talks about build orders, though, and does not go into the micro matters. Skip the part vs 10 pool, however, it's outdated.
A build used by Curious (and Leenock) in GSL vs the 2 base helions-banshee opening. Could be slightly outdated now that we dont see banshee so much anymore
Opening/Build Haessebust: ZvZ Baneling All-In One of TangSC's all-in build This one (2 gas baneling all-in) is usefull to improve your agressive baneling micro
Build/opening Zerg vs Zerg ling/infestors into ultralisks The awesome Blade55555's guide on ZvZ. This style is hard to pull off and should be reserved to confirmed players and big maps. It has faded out of style because Z learned the counter : roach rally attack. Pro include roaches midgame when doing this style and rarely go to ultralisk anymore. It's usefull to read as a historical guide nonetheless.
Overall Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvT! A ZvT guide for those of you who struggle with the match-up. However, it is possible, especially with the 6 queens opening, to take the greed to the next level. This guide also do not mention the reactored helion + banshee, which is still popular at the moment, even if terrans lately shows some tendency to ease it on the banshee part in favor of an earlier 3rd CC.
Overall Zerg vs Protoss Baneling Revolution Blade55555's guide on Banelings to solve your mid- and lategame issues vs Protoss. Especially vs Mothership.
Build/Opening Stephano-Style ZvP- The 12 Minute Max-Out An overview of a classic of ZvP : The so-called Stephano 12 Minutes max style. If this build at the professional level is nowadays rarely used to actually max out and bust the 3rd in ZvP, the actual build is still used as a reliable way to stop 2 base all-ins and to set yourself for a good midgame. The famous immortal all-in, though, was specifically designed to counter a build such as this 12 minutes max-out.
These were both outdated, and covered by the new teamgame guide I added.
Beginner:
Improving your SC2 Great thread filled with tonnes of information which could be useful to veterans and new players alike
Outdated. While some information may still be useful, I wouldn't recommend a new player to read this thread as rather a lot of the tips aren't useful, some are simply not relavent, and some are actually bad advise.
Doesn't appear to be very necessary as there are several other recommended reads that cover similar material; see "analyzing replays", "how to improve" <-- both Cecil/Ver variants.
Macro Macro Macro There's a reason the more experienced players have this mantra. Here's someone simply massing stalkers and a-moving to diamond. Removed as it was more a proof of concept than anything worth reading. Bronze to Masters by FilterSC does a more than adequate job of covering this subject.
Advanced:
None.
Moved: All of these were moved to the "resources" subsection. + Show Spoiler +
Unit Production Calculator Figure out exactly the number of production buildings you can support on a particular number of bases
Build Order Timing Calculator Plug details in, then gives you the optimal timing for a particular build. Generally speaking the the calculator will be faster than what you can achieve in game, but at least it gives you something to aim for.
Map Distance & Travel Time Reference material for how long different units take to travel from 1 main to another (maps being added as they are added to the ladder pool).
On January 18 2013 02:15 monk wrote: Updated the Terran guides, thanks to Blazinghand. Changelog will be coming soon.
How did my TvT guide get recommended? It can be viable, but it's far more difficult than the standard 1 Barracks FE into 3 barracks + reactor starport.
On January 18 2013 02:15 monk wrote: Updated the Terran guides, thanks to Blazinghand. Changelog will be coming soon.
How did my TvT guide get recommended? It can be viable, but it's far more difficult than the standard 1 Barracks FE into 3 barracks + reactor starport.
You're right. Sorry. =( I didn't proofread these before making the changes. It's now removed.
On January 18 2013 02:15 monk wrote: Updated the Terran guides, thanks to Blazinghand. Changelog will be coming soon.
How did my TvT guide get recommended? It can be viable, but it's far more difficult than the standard 1 Barracks FE into 3 barracks + reactor starport.
You're right. Sorry. =( I didn't proofread these before making the changes. It's now removed.
Good idea, but tbh i think we'll have to overhaul the whole thing soonish anyway. We'll probably have a WoL/outdated section, and highlight whatever HotS guides come out.
His keyboard usage isn't widespread enough. Additionally, i don't think it's very necessary to change hotkeys that radically when working on mechanics. As far as keybindings etc go, i very much prefer remark's thread. I also really dislike the levels system.
As far as builds go, guides must 1) focus on a standard build 2) include correct analysis and reactions of every build you might commonly face 3) include gm/pro-level vods and replays demonstrating the strategy.
Terran historically has had the least contributors as far as writing guides goes. No guide on TvT that follows the standards above has ever been posted afaik.
On March 25 2013 08:09 Teoita wrote: Terran historically has had the least contributors as far as writing guides goes. No guide on TvT that follows the standards above has ever been posted afaik.
Because tvt has no standard build thats applicable across the servers and across the leagues. TvT can go from 3 rax scv all ins at 4:30 to 1-1-1 to 1 rax fe or harass into pure marine opener. And then theres mech...
The amount of effort itll take to compile something only top korean terrans truly understand is ridiculously hard for us foreigners
To me only the first 10 minutes of a tvt has a set BO..and after that the entire matchup becomes a feeling based matchup as every unit works to some degree
i came up whit a zerg stratagie and i would like somebody's opinion on it, the stratagie is:
swarm host infestor viper (overseer)
this way you basicly dont lose units... (well you do but you can summon them again). the swarm host can attack all land units, the infestor can kill all air units the viper can catch: Thors, collosis, etz. (if they are out of posision) the overseer prefents the enemy form detecting you himself whit detectors (or in protos case dt's)
so i think this can be a very effective comp and i would like somebody's opinion on it :D
There are a good amount of guides that I've found in the strategy forum that seem interesting but aren't included in this thread. while they aren't the HIGHEST quality, they're still a pretty good resource for a say, a platinum trying to figure something out. it's a shame they aren't included in the the OP
I'm considering a couple more threads to add to the OP and taking a look at all the [G] thread again in case i missed something, but in general i'm really set on having very strict standards. These threads are supposed to be the very best guides on TL imo, which includes:
1) Through explanation of the build, thoughts behind it, pros and cons, what to scout for and how to react 2) Vods and if possible replays of pro games; it's nice to have a few master/gm level replays but not enough. Proof that the build is viable at the highest level of play.
Someone in mid master or whatever posting his own build or variation of a build saying "i always do this and XvY is my best matchup!" just doesn't cut it. Of course, this debate is very subjective, but those are the guidelines that have always been followed, and i decide to stick to them when i took over the OP.
On June 06 2013 06:26 Teoita wrote: I'm considering a couple more threads to add to the OP and taking a look at all the [G] thread again in case i missed something, but in general i'm really set on having very strict standards. These threads are supposed to be the very best guides on TL imo, which includes:
1) Through explanation of the build, thoughts behind it, pros and cons, what to scout for and how to react 2) Vods and if possible replays of pro games; it's nice to have a few master/gm level replays but not enough. Proof that the build is viable at the highest level of play.
Someone in mid master or whatever posting his own build or variation of a build saying "i always do this and XvY is my best matchup!" just doesn't cut it. Of course, this debate is very subjective, but those are the guidelines that have always been followed, and i decide to stick to them when i took over the OP.
I agree that recommended strategies should probably be strategies used professionally. It would be of "little use" to learn a build and strategy that will only work up to a point and be completely shut down by high level strategies.
The links to VODs in the strategy articles are broken now because GOM changed its format to GOM EXP. For example, none of links in the 2-2-2 article properly links to a game anymore.
On March 23 2014 22:13 Salient wrote: @TL Strategy Staff:
The links to VODs in the strategy articles are broken now because GOM changed its format to GOM EXP. For example, none of links in the 2-2-2 article properly links to a game anymore.
It's a lot of work to relink every GSL VoD, so they'll probably just stay broken. If you still want to access that VoD, just search it on youtube (i.e. "Dear vs. Soulkey GSL") and it'll probably come up.
I'm sorry, it's just not something that we can easily go back and change!
Thanks for all the helpful info in this thread. I just wanted to add that it would be nice for new players if you added the new TvT thread to the TvT section in the main post, which currently has nothing. This is the thread I'm referring to.
Will the OP get an update in the (near) future? A lot of threads are from 2011/2012 or earlier, a lot of topics are also missing pictures and videos due to their age. Maybe a little pruning would be applicable?
For me as a beginner it's a little frustrating - While i understand that the basics don't really change, the details do, and it's sometimes a bit hard to figure out what to do next. When applying all the guides to the current game it's also hard to troubleshoot when something does go wrong (at least, i keep doubting stuff because of the different details).
There's also a lot of information for beginners - Is there a specific place i should start at or should i try to take in all the guides at the same time?
EPT
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