EPT PvP
- Phoenix Play -
- Phoenix Play -
Hello TL,
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Post 1000 yeaaaah !
Edit : hihi, just saw that the icon for that was a corsair, which is pretty fitting for this topic ^^
Edit : hihi, just saw that the icon for that was a corsair, which is pretty fitting for this topic ^^
Today I'll be presenting a way to play a phoenix-based PvP. Phoenixes have been getting increasingly popular since the latest anti 4 gate patch due to the increase in robo play in tournaments and on the ladder.
Phoenixes are one of the most fun unit in the protoss arsenal, as well as being the most versatile unit.
Phoenixes are the ultimate midgame unit in PvP.
- Full scouting of your opponent
- Extremely Mobile
- Great harass unit
- Trade cost efficiently against any units in the game in small numbers (even blink stalkers with correct micro)
![[image loading]](http://www.sc2blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/starcraft-2-phoenix-overload.jpg)
When being chased by superior numbers of enemy phoenixes, don't hesitate to use the overload AoE ability to escape
The idea is to be safe from any early game all-in while getting some decently fast phoenixes to scout your opponent and react accordingly.
The aim of this guide is not to teach you how to play early game PvP (read : against 4 gate, or early cheeses). Refer to these threads if you are having questions regarding PvP early game :
[G] PvP: Compilation of anti 4 gate builds
[G] Protoss FAQs
You'll also find an ongoing discussion about phoenix play in this thread : [D] PvP Phoenix Play
This guide will be devoted to PvP phoenix play in general and not to a particular style of play, so feel free to ask questions in the thread, suggest improvements etc... I'll try to keep it up to date as much as i can.
You'll find a 1h coaching session from EGAxslav exclusively on PvP Phoenix play at the bottom of the thread.
Build order :
The opening BO is really a matter of preference. Basically a good phoenix BO is one with a 2 (or 3) gateway defense that is safe against 4 gates and takes a second gas relatively early. You can spend all your income with two gates and a stargate, so it's usually a good thing to stay on 2 gates.
A lot of people advocate for going Gate->Stargate->Gate instead of 2Gate->Stargate.
Advantages and disadvantages of GSG compared to GGS are as follows :
- Earlier Stargate -> earlier scouting information
- Faster phoenix production -> big advantage over mirror phoenix builds
- More chronoboost on gateways and less on warpgate -> FE builds more likely against you
- Relies on 3-4 sentries to defend 4 gate -> can fall behind on gas versus a 4 gater who doesn't commit
- Doesn't look like a 4 gate
I'll present 2 opening BOs here.
The first one is a reworked version of my [G] Safe PvP - Defensive 3 gate , made to work with only 2 gates in the latest patch.
I like it because it almost doesn't cut in your economy (see FAQ section about this) and relies on gateway units instead of sentries to hold the 4 gate.
The second one is a one gate Stargate build that EGAxslav uses at high level.
You can do one or the other based on what you scout (fast second gas etc...)
Note that gas stealing is a possibility, but you need to get 3 gates before stargate to be safe form 4 gate, or to pressure a 1 gate FE build.
Defensive 2 Gate into Stargate :
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9 pylon
11 CB
12 gate -> scout
13 CB
14 gas -> 3 probes
16 pylon (with probe coming out of nexus)
17 core (with probe coming out of nexus) -> Warpgate (3CB)
18 zealot
22 stalker
(cut probe production at 24/26)
24 gate
24 pylon
24 gas -> 3 probes
24 sentry
- constant probe production until you have 26 probes (+1 scouting probe)
- your sentry finishes as soon as your second gate finishes. make 2 stalkers immediately.
- get a stargate at 5:30
- get 2 chronoboosted phoenix while getting as many units as you can from 2 gates.
- directly scout your opponent's natural with first phoenix while avoiding enemy vision.
- keep making phoenixes
- scout your opponent's base with your 2 phoenix
EGAxslav's 1 gate Stargate :
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9 pylon
Chrono Nexus
12 Gate (slight probe cut is needed to get gate at 12)
Scout
Chrono Nexus
14 Assimilator
Chrono nexus
16 pylon
17 core
18 Assimilator
19 Zealot
22 pylon (get after WG research)
23 Stalker- Chrono
27 Stalker - Chrono
30 Stargate
30 sentry -Chrono
32 pylon
33 gate
34 Phoenix (all chronoes on phoenix from here on out)
36 Robo
Example replay : http://drop.sc/74681
More info on how to play this opening can be found in the coaching video at the end of the thread.
Reacting to what you scout :
Against almost every build, you're going to need to get a robotics facility at some point. In this part of the guide, two things I'll focus my attention on are robo timing and expansion timing.
The constraints linked to getting an early robo is that you will find it to be completely useless against a good number of builds : Gate FEs, Stargate, Zealot/Archon, 1 base Robo. However an early robo gives you an easy answer to blink all-ins, blink expand, DT builds, and Robo Twilight harass.
This guide will be more centered around the safe style which is getting an early blind robo though I feel getting a robo earlier forces you into a Zealot/Immortal/Phoenix composition while delaying your robo gives you more freedom in the midgame. You'll find that dealing with good blink stalker usage and DTs can be quite a pain without a robo.
This is however a general guide on phoenix openings so I will talk about all the possible variants.
If you want to be safe, I recommend getting your robo while your second or third phoenix is building. This allows you to have detection in time for Dts, and immortals for blink stalkers. It also allows you to cancel it in time if you are up against a build where you don't need it.
If you feel like playing more risky, you can expand faster and immediately get a robo after while relying on gateway + phoenix defences.
DT build - Zealot/archon:
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You scout a darkshrine, or a suspiciously empty base with a bunch of zealots. Kill two probes and immediately make an observer at your base while walling your ramp with your units on hold position. When the DTs come, FF your ramp every 15 seconds until your observer is out (use the ingame timer !). Warp in additional sentries if your initial sentry's 4 FF won't be enough (but they should be).
Always FF the lowest you can on your ramp, and leave units on hold position behind the FF. There is a trick where the DT player morphs an archon to crush the FF and them walks up the ramp with his remaining DT, if your units are on hold poisition, your should be able to FF behind once the morphing archon is dead.
Keep sending phoenixes to his base and use all energy you can on probes. I like to stop making phoenixes once I have about 5 because the logical next step for your opponent is zealot/archon and phoenixes don't do excedingly well versus that in big numbers. If you love your phoenix harass however, getting up to 9-10 can really pressure your opponent who will be forced to make stalkers he didn't want to get. 10 Phoenixes can also potentially take out an entire mineral line in seconds if he isn't being careful.
Take your expand as soon as your observer is out.
If your opponent has expanded (probably earlier then you), you can start making probes again out of both nexus and you need to do some damage in his probe line with your phoenixes. If you succeed in killing ~5 probes or so without losing anything, you'll both be approximately even in the mid game.
You need to keep a keen eye on what he his doing, and react accordingly. If he his not cutting probes, getting a forge, or a robo, you can feel free to probe up. If he his clearly gearing up for a 2 base zealot archon all in attack, then you need to focus on making units. Add gateways as you can afford them.
Build a little maze in front of your natural to hinder zealot movement.
Always FF the lowest you can on your ramp, and leave units on hold position behind the FF. There is a trick where the DT player morphs an archon to crush the FF and them walks up the ramp with his remaining DT, if your units are on hold poisition, your should be able to FF behind once the morphing archon is dead.
Keep sending phoenixes to his base and use all energy you can on probes. I like to stop making phoenixes once I have about 5 because the logical next step for your opponent is zealot/archon and phoenixes don't do excedingly well versus that in big numbers. If you love your phoenix harass however, getting up to 9-10 can really pressure your opponent who will be forced to make stalkers he didn't want to get. 10 Phoenixes can also potentially take out an entire mineral line in seconds if he isn't being careful.
Take your expand as soon as your observer is out.
If your opponent has expanded (probably earlier then you), you can start making probes again out of both nexus and you need to do some damage in his probe line with your phoenixes. If you succeed in killing ~5 probes or so without losing anything, you'll both be approximately even in the mid game.
You need to keep a keen eye on what he his doing, and react accordingly. If he his not cutting probes, getting a forge, or a robo, you can feel free to probe up. If he his clearly gearing up for a 2 base zealot archon all in attack, then you need to focus on making units. Add gateways as you can afford them.
Build a little maze in front of your natural to hinder zealot movement.
Zealot/HT/Archon:
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Pretty much the same as with DT play, except it will be a bit easier for you. Don't make too many phoenixes though and tech switch earlier because feedback is a bitch against phoenixes
You can cancel your robo to expand faster.
3/4 gate blink all-in :
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The first hint to this will be given by your initial phoenix or units who should spot a proxy pylon near your base. When you then scout his base, to find 3/4 gates and a twilight council with no units, check if he has expanded and leave your phoenixes in his base to see how all-in he is. Meanwhile at your base stop making phoenixes once you have 5 and get some immortals. FF your ramp as soon as you see him trying to get up.
You should never let him gain high ground vision. You've got a full minute (4FFs) to warp in units and immortals (use chronoboost on production facilities !).
If he tries to break your ramp, he will most likely walk a stalker up the ramp, blink to the side, and blink all of his stalkers to the side of your base. This is where the phoenixes come in to play. A-move your army towards them and with your phoenixes, lift off the first line of stalkers. He'll try to focus down the phoenixes but will take a lot of dps from your zealots and immortals, which is why you should never try to lift the stalkers in the back. Continue chasing after the stalkers, but never let your phoenixes get too far ahead of your main army.
If he pulls back and expands, you can go down the ramp and expand yourself. Blink stalkers are extremely bad at setting up a contain since they rely on kiting the army. Use two spare phoenixes to scout what he is doing in his base. once again, adapt your probe production to what you see. Kill 3 or 4 probes with the phoenixes if you can.
If he stops making stalkers and goes for a zealot/archon composition, stop making immortals and refer to the previous section. As before, you can either keep your phoenix count at 5-ish, or go up to ~8-10 for more harass heavy play.
You should never let him gain high ground vision. You've got a full minute (4FFs) to warp in units and immortals (use chronoboost on production facilities !).
If he tries to break your ramp, he will most likely walk a stalker up the ramp, blink to the side, and blink all of his stalkers to the side of your base. This is where the phoenixes come in to play. A-move your army towards them and with your phoenixes, lift off the first line of stalkers. He'll try to focus down the phoenixes but will take a lot of dps from your zealots and immortals, which is why you should never try to lift the stalkers in the back. Continue chasing after the stalkers, but never let your phoenixes get too far ahead of your main army.
If he pulls back and expands, you can go down the ramp and expand yourself. Blink stalkers are extremely bad at setting up a contain since they rely on kiting the army. Use two spare phoenixes to scout what he is doing in his base. once again, adapt your probe production to what you see. Kill 3 or 4 probes with the phoenixes if you can.
If he stops making stalkers and goes for a zealot/archon composition, stop making immortals and refer to the previous section. As before, you can either keep your phoenix count at 5-ish, or go up to ~8-10 for more harass heavy play.
3 gate blink expand :
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This time you can afford to use energy on the probe line. As soon as your phoenixes spot the expand, kill two probes and rally all new phoenixes to his base to kill as many probes as you can. At your base, get chronoboosted immortals. Walk down the ramp with your first immortal and expand. You will be a bit late, but your phoenixes should have killed a decent amount of probes. When you have 2 or 3 Immortals, you can go pressure his own expand. If he has made too many stalkers, to defend phoenix harass you can kill him right there, but most of the time he'll have too many zealots for you to win the fight. Use the distraction from your ground army to kill probes in the main with phoenixes.
1 base colossi :
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This is an extremely favorable build order win for you. Kill two probes immediately and cancel your robo. If for some reason he doesn't cancel his colossus, then just make 2 more gates, get 5-6 phoenixes and all-in him. If he tries to expand immediately, get 2 more gates and all-in him. He spent way to much money on useless tech robo and robo bay + nexus to be able to hold. Storm in with you phoenix to kill the sentries, then a-move your army for the kill. With your phoenixes you want to lift immortals and zealots ( he won't have more then one sentry)
The smart way for him to play it out is to immediately get a twilight council and go for a delayed blink staler + obs. This leaves you more then enough time to expand while you continue to harass with your phoenixes. I like getting a lot of phoenixes in this situation 8-10 to force him into his base while you macro up. You can go up to ~32 probes as long as he isn't expanding, ~40 probes if he expands, and more if he expands and makes probes. In all cases you should be far ahead. Watch out for the all-in DT tech switch. Get a robo and obs when you feel the time is right
The smart way for him to play it out is to immediately get a twilight council and go for a delayed blink staler + obs. This leaves you more then enough time to expand while you continue to harass with your phoenixes. I like getting a lot of phoenixes in this situation 8-10 to force him into his base while you macro up. You can go up to ~32 probes as long as he isn't expanding, ~40 probes if he expands, and more if he expands and makes probes. In all cases you should be far ahead. Watch out for the all-in DT tech switch. Get a robo and obs when you feel the time is right
Robo Twilight:
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This is one of the most common opening on the ladder right now because it's very safe and versatile. Players get a robo for observers and mass blink stalkers off of 3 gates. Playing against this style is not easy with a phoenix opener and there is little room for mistakes.
The good part is that his blink will be delayed compared to pure blink builds. You therefore have a window of time where you can harass and keep him on the defensive. Now if you haven't lost any units in early skirmishes, your opponent basically spent 25/75 on an obs and 150 on a gateway and 100 on 2 extra probes, which leaves you with 275/75 worth of units more then him.
Now of course this doesn't really mean anything precise like : "you can afford to lose 2 stalkers and still be good", but it does show that there is room to squeeze in an expansion (which is basically a big pylon for 300 more minerals as NrGMonk puts it) and still be able to hold the all in. With good micro on both sides, a phoenix based army is almost as cost efficient as a blink stalker army in small numbers.
You can either expand directly, and then chrono out immortals, or get an immortal first, and expand later. Immortals before expand is usually much safer though. I only expand before if I have some sort of a lead in army due to early skirmishes for example.
If he decides to expand, you should both have the same timing on your expansion. Get an observer out and try to snipe his own observer with your phoenixes. You should be safe from blink harass for a while if you get it. (You can do cute stuff like camping his robo with an obs to snipe observers with phoenix as they come out as well ^^). Where you head to from there is really up to you. If you choose colossus tech you'll have little to deny a fast third from your opponent if he goes zealot/archon. But you can still turtle up on 2 bases and harass with phoenixes.
If he his going all in, don't make any probes, just pylons and units. Chronoboost out immortals (you don't have time for an obs. This is when you need to have a good read on your opponent, keep track of stalker numbers and figure out if he is all-ining with stalkers of with a hidden darkshrine). Once you've maynarded some workers, your income should be bigger than his and you'll slowly outproduce him. It also helps that you are defending so you can send some zealots in his mineral line from a proxy pylon.
The good part is that his blink will be delayed compared to pure blink builds. You therefore have a window of time where you can harass and keep him on the defensive. Now if you haven't lost any units in early skirmishes, your opponent basically spent 25/75 on an obs and 150 on a gateway and 100 on 2 extra probes, which leaves you with 275/75 worth of units more then him.
Now of course this doesn't really mean anything precise like : "you can afford to lose 2 stalkers and still be good", but it does show that there is room to squeeze in an expansion (which is basically a big pylon for 300 more minerals as NrGMonk puts it) and still be able to hold the all in. With good micro on both sides, a phoenix based army is almost as cost efficient as a blink stalker army in small numbers.
You can either expand directly, and then chrono out immortals, or get an immortal first, and expand later. Immortals before expand is usually much safer though. I only expand before if I have some sort of a lead in army due to early skirmishes for example.
If he decides to expand, you should both have the same timing on your expansion. Get an observer out and try to snipe his own observer with your phoenixes. You should be safe from blink harass for a while if you get it. (You can do cute stuff like camping his robo with an obs to snipe observers with phoenix as they come out as well ^^). Where you head to from there is really up to you. If you choose colossus tech you'll have little to deny a fast third from your opponent if he goes zealot/archon. But you can still turtle up on 2 bases and harass with phoenixes.
If he his going all in, don't make any probes, just pylons and units. Chronoboost out immortals (you don't have time for an obs. This is when you need to have a good read on your opponent, keep track of stalker numbers and figure out if he is all-ining with stalkers of with a hidden darkshrine). Once you've maynarded some workers, your income should be bigger than his and you'll slowly outproduce him. It also helps that you are defending so you can send some zealots in his mineral line from a proxy pylon.
Stargate Mirror:
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One of the most intense and frustrating experience is phoenix vs phoenix in PvP. If at any point some player has one more phoenix than his opponent, and "tags" the other guy's phoenixes somewhere on the map, it's an auto win for him (shoots while moving and does bonus damage vs light...).
There is only one way to play this out I think : keep massing chronoboosted phoenixes until you have more then him. If you have less then him, camp your mineral line with your stalkers and phoenixes.
(This doesn't mean that you can't move out with your phoenixes to scout his expansion timing, phoenix numbers, tech switch etc... It just means that when you move out, you have to be 100% focused on your phoenixes so they don't get "tagged".)
If you have more then him, harass his mineral line. Eventually you guys will run out of gas and have to expand with the left over ressources. A good occasion to take double gas and add an additional stargate to make more phoenixes. You can also try to sneak a dt shrine somewhere on the map...
Get +1 air attack when you start getting gas income from your second base.
There is only one way to play this out I think : keep massing chronoboosted phoenixes until you have more then him. If you have less then him, camp your mineral line with your stalkers and phoenixes.
(This doesn't mean that you can't move out with your phoenixes to scout his expansion timing, phoenix numbers, tech switch etc... It just means that when you move out, you have to be 100% focused on your phoenixes so they don't get "tagged".)
If you have more then him, harass his mineral line. Eventually you guys will run out of gas and have to expand with the left over ressources. A good occasion to take double gas and add an additional stargate to make more phoenixes. You can also try to sneak a dt shrine somewhere on the map...
Get +1 air attack when you start getting gas income from your second base.
Immortal Expand:
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You can generally just add 2 gates and all-in him. If you are playing on a map with an easy to defend natural like shakuras, you can also expand later and just go kill all his probes with your phoenixes. Phoenix vs Immortal expand is really a BO win situation.
Gate expands:
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Usually 3 gate expands, but some times even more greedy, these builds are absolutely not safe versus any sort of early pressure builds (3 gate, 4 gate, 3 gate very fast blink). Ideally, you want to scout them with your scouting probe/ first units, but the players who open like this are usually very good at denying scouting.
At the low levels, you don't have to worry about fast expand builds so much, but at higher levels people tend to them more often. If you strongly suspect a fast expand, get your own expand after the 4 gate timing. You can cancel it if you scout something you don't like later on.
All-ining is possible if you suspect that your opponent isn't doing the build the way it is supposed to be done. For example if he is getting immortals or an excessive amount of sentries. However, most of the time his expansion will have already paid for itself once your attack comes and good players will hold off your all-in.
You need to scout it with your first phoenix (which is why you head directly for opponent's natural with 1st phoenix). and immediately answer by cancelling your robo (if you chose to get an early robo) and expanding yourself. You'll need to pull yourself back in the game with your phoenix harass. If he his going stalker heavy (which he should) you get a robo right after expanding and start getting some immortals.
5/6 gates blink attacks are really common as a follow up to 3 gate expands and you'll need to scout it to prepare for it.
Before he reaches his timing though you can easily take the map and pressure his front. This is a great occasion to go kill probes in his main while he is defending his natural.
At the low levels, you don't have to worry about fast expand builds so much, but at higher levels people tend to them more often. If you strongly suspect a fast expand, get your own expand after the 4 gate timing. You can cancel it if you scout something you don't like later on.
All-ining is possible if you suspect that your opponent isn't doing the build the way it is supposed to be done. For example if he is getting immortals or an excessive amount of sentries. However, most of the time his expansion will have already paid for itself once your attack comes and good players will hold off your all-in.
You need to scout it with your first phoenix (which is why you head directly for opponent's natural with 1st phoenix). and immediately answer by cancelling your robo (if you chose to get an early robo) and expanding yourself. You'll need to pull yourself back in the game with your phoenix harass. If he his going stalker heavy (which he should) you get a robo right after expanding and start getting some immortals.
5/6 gates blink attacks are really common as a follow up to 3 gate expands and you'll need to scout it to prepare for it.
Before he reaches his timing though you can easily take the map and pressure his front. This is a great occasion to go kill probes in his main while he is defending his natural.
4 gate Warp Prism :
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With the rise in popularity of tech builds with sentry defense, more and more players have been trying to get a quick win with a delayed 4 gate with a warp prism. Killing the warp prism doesn't stop the attack as smart players also build a pylon on the low ground to keep reinforcing.
In construction
Summary :
Good against :
- 1 base Colossus
- Immortal builds
- Blink all-ins
- 1 base zealot/archon openings
Harder against :
- Blink expands
- Gateway expands
- DT expands
Even against :
- Robo Twilight
- Stargate mirror (duh !)
Late game transitions :
This guide mostly describes mid-game PvP so I won't be dwelling too much on the late game. In any case there are very little late game transitions that are Stargate centric, so phoenix openings usually have a tech switch transition at some point in the game. That transition usually happens after you have secured your expansion and held any pressure/all in.
The current standard way of playing PvP is to eventually go for colossus tech in the late game. This is personally what I recommend as pure zealot/archon compositions have shown to not be very effective.
If your opponent is also going for a colossus based army, you are safe to tech up, however against a zealot-archon composition, he can push before your tech investment has paid off in terms of units. It's usually a good idea to get a forge and 3 or 4 cannons at your front. You should also use the forge for upgrades when you feel you can afford the 100/100.
General late game tips :
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Phoenixes and immortals really shine together in the mid game. If you find yourself in a position where you have a handful of phoenixes with 4 or 5 immortals and gateway units (zealot heavy), you have one of the most effective army composition at that point in time. Use this to pressure opponent's natural while harassing probes in the back. Do not go all-in unless you see an opportunity (he brings a good part of his army in his main to defend harass and you can FF ramp for example). If he has blink and a solid defense, just walk back home.
Against colossus-based compositions you can use a lot of your energy on his mineral line (in engagements, your phoenixes will always have something to shoot at regardless). If you have more than 8 phoenixes, it's also a good investment to get +1 air attack as colossus armor really cuts into phoenixes' dps.
Here are some alternative late game compositions :
Phoenix/DT/Observer :
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The idea for the composition is pretty straightforward : observers detect other observers, phoenix auto-target observers, and dark templars are cloaked
This transition should mainly be done against zealot-archon compositions. The reason for that is that your phoenix don't have any other targets then observers. Also, colossus splash kills DTs even if your opponent doesn't have detection.
When engaging, keep observer behind your phoenix so it doesn't get targeted by stalkers in the back. Keep at maximum 8 or so dark templars in your army, with the rest as archons for AoE and FF crushing. Complement with upgraded zealots.
Teching to DTs can be quite long, so once again, there's is a timing where you'll be very vulnerable. Forge + cannons can save your day if you feel you won't have DT tech in time.
If you are playing from behind, teching straight to DTs with fast double gas at your natural is a good way to catch up and hope to pull yourself back in the game.
if you haven't already, check out this awesome game from Liquid'Tyler using this composition http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/AresEffort/TWIR/TWIR_15.zip
(game vs peyote)
Also, a fun replay of me doing this on the ladder with a mothership + carrier transition. The guy knew me from TL so I felt like trying to do something fun ^^
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-247059.jpg)
Carrier transition doesn't work out too well for me though :D
Mothership :
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Axslav really likes this against any build. The best time to get it is when you decide to get your third. Since you should only get your third if they get their third (which you should see right away due to phoenixes) you know that if they get their third they will not be aggressive anytime soon. Thus, tech to mothership and get your own third. Once your mothership is out your army is extremely strong. The reason why mothership is good against everything is because of varying reasons. Against colossus builds vortex is extremely strong and you can usually snag 4 or 5 colossus. Zealot archon builds don't have colossus, thus your handful of phoenixes will snipe his observer and your entire army will be cloaked. Vortex is also good here, just not as amazing as in Colossus engagements.
FAQ :
How do I micro during engagements ?
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Order of priority for lifts :
When engaging fights, stay over your army with your phoenixes, never fly them over his own army. You want your opponent to have to go near your zealots/immortals if he wants to snipe phoenixes. You can have your phoenixes slightly ahead of your army when you are chasing units, but not by much.
If your are breaking a ramp, position your army under the ramp away from opponent's vision. Zealots, in front, activate guardian shield and 1a toward the ramp. Your phoenix get there before the rest of the army and have time to lift off and kill all the sentries.
- Sentries (one by one)
- Immortals (as many as you can)
- HT/Zealots (one by one)
- Stalkers (as many as you can as long as you still have a healthy amount of stalkers yourself. Else one by one)
When engaging fights, stay over your army with your phoenixes, never fly them over his own army. You want your opponent to have to go near your zealots/immortals if he wants to snipe phoenixes. You can have your phoenixes slightly ahead of your army when you are chasing units, but not by much.
If your are breaking a ramp, position your army under the ramp away from opponent's vision. Zealots, in front, activate guardian shield and 1a toward the ramp. Your phoenix get there before the rest of the army and have time to lift off and kill all the sentries.
Don't blink stalkers hard counter phoenixes ?
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Yes and No. Blink stalkers destroy phoenixes in a straight up fight when in very big numbers so they can easily snipe phoenixes one by one. In small engagements (a dozen or so blink stalkers), a phoenix based army holds its ground against blink stalkers.
What is interesting is that both of these armies (blink and phoenix) have a sort of "you can't escape" mechanism to them, so if you engage them, you have to be prepared to lose a good portion of your army. This is why most of the people trying to play a safe standard style will react to your expansion by expanding themselves instead of all-ining as you can never really be sure that you are going to win the fight.
What is interesting is that both of these armies (blink and phoenix) have a sort of "you can't escape" mechanism to them, so if you engage them, you have to be prepared to lose a good portion of your army. This is why most of the people trying to play a safe standard style will react to your expansion by expanding themselves instead of all-ining as you can never really be sure that you are going to win the fight.
What do I do with my phoenixes when he has his mineral line covered ?
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Always be active with your phoenixes. This means scouting around the map, clearing watchtowers and stray units, getting glimpses of his army size and position on the map, spotting proxy pylons, etc...
Catching stray units with one lift :
Only lift stray units with these minimal numbers if you are sure that his army is not near-by. Killing a stalker with 3 phoenix (one lifting and 2 firing) takes a LONG time.
Catching stray units with one lift :
- 2 Phoenixes kill 1 Zealot (barely, sometimes if you are unlucky with the random fire delay, the zealot gets away with 1 hp. This should be fixed I think because it can be pretty game changing and it seems entirely random)
- 2 Phoenixes kill 1 Sentry
- 3 Phoenixes kill 1 Stalker
- 5 Phoenixes kill one immortal
Only lift stray units with these minimal numbers if you are sure that his army is not near-by. Killing a stalker with 3 phoenix (one lifting and 2 firing) takes a LONG time.
Why do you scout with 2 Phoenixes ?
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1 Phoenix cannot do any damage and once you reveal your tech, your opponent will be prepared.
3 Phoenixes come too late for scouting DTs
3 Phoenixes come too late for scouting DTs
Your 2 gate build cuts probes for 30 seconds. How bad is this compared to greedy builds that never cut probes ?
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I did an excel spreadsheet with a very simplified model where players keep making probes until they have 26 probes. I supposed only mineral mining and constant income per probe.
It results in a mineral loss of about 140-150.
I haven't factored in gas, or mineral saturation after 16 so don't take this figure too seriously, it's just a very basic estimate.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3y7NQ.jpg)
It results in a mineral loss of about 140-150.
I haven't factored in gas, or mineral saturation after 16 so don't take this figure too seriously, it's just a very basic estimate.
Is 2 gates really safe versus 4 gate and aggressive 3 gates ?
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Yes and No. But mostly yes.
Not really against straight up all-in 4 gates that don't even try to hide it. Yes against those fake 4 gates who get an extra pylon or gaz to confuse you because they are delaying there attack by just what you need to defend with 2 gates.
Against the obvious 4gates, I would still recommend adding a third gate and delaying your stargate. Same against 11 gate openers with 5 CB saved. Although you can hold them off with 2 gates, you'll need perfect micro, or you'll need to get additional sentries and I don't really like to be forced into sentries.
Not really against straight up all-in 4 gates that don't even try to hide it. Yes against those fake 4 gates who get an extra pylon or gaz to confuse you because they are delaying there attack by just what you need to defend with 2 gates.
Against the obvious 4gates, I would still recommend adding a third gate and delaying your stargate. Same against 11 gate openers with 5 CB saved. Although you can hold them off with 2 gates, you'll need perfect micro, or you'll need to get additional sentries and I don't really like to be forced into sentries.
Replays :
My replays :
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This is the least interesting part of this guide : a couple of games that I played on the ladder and with practise partners. Everytime I thought the game was interesting, I saved it. A lot of these games are me doing trial and error things, I sometimes go all-in when I shouldn't etc... Some of these games show pretty bad play from my part because it's very hard to play perfectly with the amount of micro that phoenixes require. Mainly just look at these replays if you want to be convinced that phoenixes are quite viable in PvP.
I don't have any replays of me losing because I don't think this playstyle has any glaring weaknessess, so everytime I lose, it's because I messed up something and didn't follow what this guide says.
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2 Gate vs 11 Gate : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243684.jpg)
2 Gate vs Delayed 4 Gate : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243693.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs 1 Base Colossi : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243685.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs 3 Gate Robo : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243687.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs 3 Gate Blink All-in : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243688.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs 3 Gate Blink All-in (2) : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243690.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs 3 Gate FE : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243689.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs Blink Expand Archon : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243691.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs Colossus Expand : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243692.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs Robo Twilight : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243694.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs Robo Twilight (2) : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243695.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs Robo Twilight All-in : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243696.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs Robo Stargate : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243697.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs Robo Twilight (3) : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243698.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs Robo Twilight (4) : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243699.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs Robo Twilight Expand : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243700.jpg)
2 Gate Stargate vs VoidRays : + Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243701.jpg)
EgAxslav replays :
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http://drop.sc/53812
http://drop.sc/53998
http://drop.sc/53837
http://drop.sc/53789
http://drop.sc/53936
http://drop.sc/53915
http://drop.sc/53941
http://drop.sc/54002
http://drop.sc/53846
http://drop.sc/53899
http://drop.sc/53854
http://drop.sc/53833
http://drop.sc/53932
http://drop.sc/53884
http://drop.sc/53884
http://drop.sc/53966
EGAxslav 1h coaching session on phoenix usage in PvP
Concluding thoughts :
Phoenix builds are a safe way into the mid/late game in PvP. Not only are they a very fun way to play, but phoenixes are also the closest thing to a legal map-hack you can get if you remain active with them at all times.
As every other build in PvP, it is weaker against some openings (blink and FEs), and stronger against others (immortal based builds). Phoenix play can give you outright BO wins against certain builds, but most of the time, it just sets you up nicely for an even late game PvP. I believe nothing straight up hard counters phoenix play : there is always a lot of room to out-play your opponent.
Once again, this guide is meant to give you a general notion on how to play Phoenix based PvP. It is not meant to provide extremely precise step by step reactions to what you encounter. I will try to keep it as up-to-date as possible, and will include all comments that are reasonable and logically explained, so feel free to post your ideas !
Credits :
I had help from a great amount of people to write this guide, from my practise partners, to forum contributors, to random people I met on the ladder. I included all the ideas I thought were interesting or served to be talked about.
Special thanks to Easytouch1500 who helped a great deal with all the information he had obtained for EGAxslav, providing replays, lategame transitions etc...
Special thanks also to the TL forumers who gave me feedback, namely NrGMonk, Latedi, Nyast, ArcaneFrost.
And a big thanks to all of those who will read this guide and post interesting comments, suggestions, replays ! etc...
