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pure_protoss
152 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.sc2blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/starcraft-2-phoenix-overload.jpg) When being chased by superior numbers of enemy phoenixes, don't hesitate to use the overload AoE ability to escape I would like to congratulate you into making a really nice guide about phoenix play...However the picture and the sentence REALLY bothers me since it might be misguiding for starters...Also, it attacks my feelings since I am very sad they removed the ability from the game! | ||
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Easytouch1500
United States66 Posts
On December 21 2011 03:03 GomJabbar wrote: As soon as the opponent sees my phoenixes, he makes nothing but stalkers and gets blink, and his ground army quickly becomes bigger than mine since I'm only running off 2 gates and a robo. Do I continue making phoenixes in this situation, or do I stop making them at some point? Same question against a robo+blink opening, do you cut phoenixes and go straight to immortals, or keep making phoenixes while doing the immortals? Yeah, you want to continue making phoenixes until you have about 8 in most situations. Alright, in situations where he does not have an expansion and he has heavy blink stalkers you still want to make phoenixes, but don't worry about constant production. You want to prioritize immos>phoenixes. Don't stop chronoboosting your robo until you have at least 3 immortals. The problem with phoenixes is that they are kinda terrible against mass stalkers. However, your army will be much stronger than his once you have about 4 immortals. If he does pressure you off of 1 base with his stalkers just get a few sentries out, make sure he doesn't get up your ramp and continue chronoboosting your immortals out. In the meanwhile go sack his probeline. He will either be forced to warp in units at home to defend your phoenixes, making his push weaker. Or sack probes. I have lots of issues against zealot+archon. Phoenixes seem terrible against this, so I've been testing out void rays as soon as I scout it, but it still seems like my ground army dies every time. Frankly I don't know what the hell beats 1 or 2 base zealot archon attacks besides colossus with sim-city. Void rays really fucking suck, don't get them. Read the dt/phoenix midgame section. It absolutely tears zealot archon a new asshole. You are extremely vulnerable to timings while you are getting your dark shrine up though. As long as you get past this stage though and have 6 or so DTS then you shouldn't have a problem killing him. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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BoondockVeritas
United States191 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
As for motherships, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155524. Super old thread but still hilarious (and pretty good), and an immortal/phoenix opening is probably the best way to get there. Anyway, thanks a lot for the guides! You sir are awesome! | ||
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Geiko
France1936 Posts
On December 21 2011 02:02 Alejandrisha wrote: very well done; looks pretty damn comprehensive to me. have you faced many hard 3 gate pushes when using this? it seems like the timing of the 2nd gate is a bit late to assist in getting out that extra stalker to thwart a 3 gate that gets the 2nd and 3rd gates before the 3rd pylon. you mention what you would do if you scout an 11 gate variant, but i've seen hero apply similar amounts of pressure with a 12 gate and 4cbs into a 3gate offense. you might be able to get a sentry out by the time the pylon gets up, but is it possible to hold it from there with only 2 gates up, one which came too late to make anything before WG is done? pm me if you'd like to do some dry runs in the coming days Thanks, I did put a lot of time into this to make it as complete as possible  Against 12 gate 3 gates with 4 CB on warpgate, as you said, the timing will be 5:45 units warped in. In this sense, it's just like a standard 4 gate but with less units, and less of an advantage for you once you hold it off. My build gets 1 z + 3st + 1 se before the warpgate timing. Against a 3 gate as you described : -if he warps in on the low ground, his army will be split in half by the FF and I'll win easily -if he wants to get a pylon in my base, he has to run a probe up when he only has 1 z + 1 s to defend it. Either I snipe the probe when he is trying to go up the ramp (2 stalker shot, + 1 zealot shot), or even if he does get the pylon up, he'll need to use his two units to protect it. If he does he basically loses them because I can FF the ramp if he tries to escape and 1 z + 1st + 1se destroys 1z + 1s and I only lose 1 zealot or 1 sentry and damage on the stalker. He can then warp in 3 stalkers, + the reinforcing stalker that is coming, against what's left of my army (1 stalker + 1sentry most likely) + 2 stalkers that finish before he has finished warping in (I get free shots on the warping units), + 2 of my stalkers that come 7secs after his (assuming we both do the builds perfectly). So I think I don't have any problem with this kind of 4 gate. Now with the build I posted, you'll notice that I get my pylon before my second gateway, which means that my 3rd stalker timing should be about 10 secs left. However, you'll also notice that I'm not using all my chronoboost in the build I gave (I have one left over which I keep for chronoing out phoenixes, immortals ... later on). If I see him being very aggressive with his first units, I will chronoboost my 3 rd stalker so it pops out right on time. But all of this is really pure theorycrafting as the timings are never that precise in a real game and I would be delighted to test it out with you. However I'm only on the EU server (geiko.813), do you have a EU account ? On December 21 2011 03:03 GomJabbar wrote: Wonderful guide, thanks! I've been trying to figure out phoenix builds lately and axslav's build seems super strong. I only have issues with a few things. As soon as the opponent sees my phoenixes, he makes nothing but stalkers and gets blink, and his ground army quickly becomes bigger than mine since I'm only running off 2 gates and a robo. Do I continue making phoenixes in this situation, or do I stop making them at some point? Same question against a robo+blink opening, do you cut phoenixes and go straight to immortals, or keep making phoenixes while doing the immortals? I have lots of issues against zealot+archon. Phoenixes seem terrible against this, so I've been testing out void rays as soon as I scout it, but it still seems like my ground army dies every time. Frankly I don't know what the hell beats 1 or 2 base zealot archon attacks besides colossus with sim-city. Number of phoenixes as I said in the guide really depends on style. Minimum 5 phoenixes if you want them to be of any use at all, but almost always 8-10 phoenix will always be good if you are active with them (if you just sit in your base and wait for an attack they will certainly not have paid off). However against mass blink stalkers you should really prioritize getting immortals (devote chronoboost to that) and use left over ressources for phoenix and zealots. In particular, 2 base blink timings are a HUGE pain to deal with if you don't have at least 5 immortals. Void rays are almost never good in PvP compared to phoenixes. One exception to this is very late game compositions where colo + void ray armies are a good response to pure colo armies. Before that, always get phoenixes instead of void rays. Phoenix destroy zealots hard, so they are almost always worth their weight in minerals when dealing with zealots/archon. However like I mentioned many time, if you are transitioning, you can die to these timing pushes. So against zealot archon, I really advise you to get a good sim city and cannons. On December 21 2011 05:55 Tekakan wrote: Hi Geiko, I've been studying Axslavs VODs and Coaching Sessions during the last couple of days and just like you I've tried to pan this build it out. Therefor I'm thankfull you've done it as well so I always have something to compare it with. I'm not really done yet but I came acorss some things I would like to comment on or just add to the thread. I'm gonna be bold and try to go Gateway then SG. For anyone who want's some advice on how to hold off a 4 Gate with this build the important parts are: + Show Spoiler + 4 Gate response The idea behind this is to FF the ramp whilst your Phoenix keep killing Probes in his main. Here are some general things I've snaped up: (1) Once you scout anything indicating he might 4 gate just hotkey 6-8 of your probes mining minerals (NOT GAS!). It's only a back up plan but I will go in to detail later on why this is needed. The number is not that important. I say 6-8 since Axslav used 6 in his defense against Incontrol but told his student to hotkey 8. You can chose what you think is appropriate but I think it's good to start off with 8 and cut it down to 6 if you felt that 8 was a bit excessive. (2) Cut Phoenix production untill you have two Sentries out and spend all that saved up CB for your two Sentries that should come after the Zealot-Stalker-Stalker. Don't spend CB on WG-tech. It won't help you at all since he has 4 Warp Gates and you will only have 2. (3) If he's doing the 4 Gate with proxy Pylons on the bottom and top of your ramp you really need to snipe his probe ASAP. You do not want Pylons on your high ground. He should be able to pull it off and get both started before the Probe dies. So anytime you see him place that first Pylon on the low ground just grab those probes you hotkeyed and send them towards your ramp. If he backs off and doesn't attempt to come up send them back mining but otherwise you need them. After his Probe has died you can use 2-3 Probes for some extra DPS on his units whilst the rest of them attack the Pylons. Prioritize killing the one on the highground first. From here on you should be able to proceed with the FF of ramp + killing of Probes once you have 2 Phoenix out if he's stubborn enough to keep up with his 4 gate. You don't want to be making execessive amounts of Sentries as they cut in on your Phoenix production but it's good to know that you need 6 of them to constantly be puting up new FF. The important part is that you do not need 6 of them ASAP. You can add them on whilst getting some Phoenix and warping in Zealots. (4) Never ever ever in your entire life should you chase him off after holding his 4 Gate. It's just stupid. He can easily have more units behind the inital 3 and can punish you since he will have 4 units per warp in. You will only have 2. Stay on your ramp and let the Phoenix edge out an even stronger economic lead. If you're wondering where his army is just send out a probe. That's a general rule of tumb I've learned from watching Axslav these last days. At anytime in P vs P when he's uncertain about where the enemies army is and he can't scout it with an Observer or Phoenix he sends out a single Probe to do the scouting for him instead of his army. It makes perfect sense. Losing a probe is pretty cheap compared to getting caught off guard by a warp in or Blink Stalkers! Axslav is also very cautious about his usage of the first Zealot and Stalker. He will check his main and natural for the scouting Probe but other than that he will just walk back up his ramp and play on from there. If he scouts an early second gas and a ton of CB on Probes he might feel comfortable to move out and scout a but further with his Stalkers but don't do that unless you feel comfortable doing it. I don't want to be rude but I'm not sure this is true. It might work on some maps I guess but this was what I thought he said about this sort of timing attack whilst teching to DT: + Show Spoiler + Never take the 3d and 4th gases against 1 base all in or any heavy Gateway all in build off two base. There's one exception and that is when you go for Phoenix/DT. If he attacks before the Dark Shrine is done then send all your units and Probes up yor ramp and sack the expansion. By doing this you should be able to survive in time to get the DT's out and then just retake your natural once you have map control. Just some random tips I got from watching him: + Show Spoiler + It's great if you can get him to pull a Probe when your scouting since he's losing mining time and whilst you're doing that as well atleast you're scouting at the same time. That also means avoid attacking his scouting Probe at all costs. You don't gain anything on it. Let him kill the shields on your Pylon if he wants to. Always try to spend one extra CB on probes then he is. You should be able to hold off all aggressions early on with one CB less spent on WG-tech or Gateways. Stop making Stalkers at 2 unless he goes for a Blink build then you can add in 1-2 more. Keep this count low since they're pretty useless in the midgame with theese builds. Instead focus on warping in Zealots with your money. Zealots are great, especially with Charge! Things you should be actively scouting for in the midgame are army composition, upgrades and expansion timings. General P vs P advice: "When in doubt, get Immortals and Stalkers." Specific advice: "When in doubt, pick up the Immortals, they're more expensive then your Phoenix." His great approach to the match up (which is his best btw): "P vs P is easy. The guy who plays best, wins." Like I said, this guide isn't on one particular style. I do believe however that he does get the cannon defense when teching to DTs. The only time I've heard him suggest to sack the natural is when he was behind anyways and was trying to get back in the game but cutting corners and teching straight to DTs. Regarding the 2 stalkers, I know that he likes to stay at 2 stalkers but I honestly prefer at least 3 or 4, even at the price of one less phoenix. It's a matter of preference really. As long as you know what you want to achieve with the units that you are getting, that is the most important I think. For example, I like using my stalkers to poke his front, control watch towers, etc... On December 21 2011 06:13 pure_protoss wrote: I would like to congratulate you into making a really nice guide about phoenix play...However the picture and the sentence REALLY bothers me since it might be misguiding for starters...Also, it attacks my feelings since I am very sad they removed the ability from the game! Lol, we are all sad Just wanted to put something a little bit funny before my huge wall of text ^^ On December 21 2011 21:19 Teoita wrote: Just a little note: the phoenix/dt thing tyler did was actually trolling as his account's mmr had been reset and he had to re-do his placement matches. In that one replay Tyler is just so much better than his opponent, it doesn't really matter what he does. As for motherships, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155524. Super old thread but still hilarious (and pretty good), and an immortal/phoenix opening is probably the best way to get there. Anyway, thanks a lot for the guides! You sir are awesome! Yes it's not really a serious game, but it sure shows how powerfull this composition can be. I think I have a fun replay of me doing this against someone on the ladder, and then transitioning into carrier mothership ^^. Edit : here it is ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-247059.jpg) That's one of the points of this guide, to show another way of playing PvP which is fun and creative yet very viable. | ||
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stokes17
United States1411 Posts
Checking out the axslav lesson now, dood was very prepared for the lesson, awesome Q&A in the beginning | ||
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LEEKsc
Sweden380 Posts
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pandaburn
United States89 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
That being said, I usually get stargate after nexus is already half done (depends on stalker production requirements) and then get phoenix. Only after Nexus is near completion do I think it's okay to place stargate and get phoenix! | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
 jkjk | ||
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Geiko
France1936 Posts
On December 22 2011 02:21 stokes17 wrote: Geiko why are you not a blue poster yet? Is this awesome guide #3 for you? And on PvP phoenix which is a very complex strategy. Well done! Checking out the axslav lesson now, dood was very prepared for the lesson, awesome Q&A in the beginning Thanks that's nice <3 I guess I just don't post as much as I'd like due to work  You can always voice your opinion here if you want : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193853 | ||
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Geiko
France1936 Posts
On December 22 2011 03:46 tehemperorer wrote: Thanks Geiko! This post doesn't sell me at all on early phoenixes in PvP though! In PvP I always try for 3gate blink expand. If I see any sort of defensive play (i.e. cb'ed gateway, depleted cb on nexus, presence of a sentry, a 3rd pylon, all found in your 2 build orders), I keep my 5 or 8 stalkers and just expand while getting blink and probes. If you're not going early phoenix I handle that with blink and cautious probe production, but if you are, you can't have enough to do any lasting damage vs my stalkers and early nexus. That being said, I usually get stargate after nexus is already half done (depends on stalker production requirements) and then get phoenix. Only after Nexus is near completion do I think it's okay to place stargate and get phoenix! I'm not chronoboosting my gateways in my build, nor is my nexus energy depleted. In fact it pretty much looks like a 4 gate as I can cancel my gas and go 4 gate anyways (which I often do against players that look too greedy). Blink rush into expand is an extremely greedy build which can die to a number of things including 4 gate, DT rushes, and 1 base immortal pushes, in that sense, it's normal that you are at an advantage against certain builds (stargate opener for example) and straight up lose to other builds. Also, 8 stalkers is not the critical mass to be cost effective vs phoenix. If you're going to expand and not cut probes, I can go and kill you directly with my 1base zealot/immortal/phoenix army. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
I have a question though. I always thought Blink Stalker allins was the hard counter to Phoenix play. Your guide says to get Immortals but I don't think you can get 5 Phoenixes, a Robo and Immortals by the time their attack comes. Maybe I'm wrong but can you explain this part a little more? | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On December 22 2011 03:56 Geiko wrote: I'm not chronoboosting my gateways in my build, nor is my nexus energy depleted. In fact it pretty much looks like a 4 gate as I can cancel my gas and go 4 gate anyways (which I often do against players that look too greedy). Blink rush into expand is an extremely greedy build which can die to a number of things including 4 gate, DT rushes, and 1 base immortal pushes, in that sense, it's normal that you are at an advantage against certain builds (stargate opener for example) and straight up lose to other builds. Also, 8 stalkers is not the critical mass to be cost effective vs phoenix. If you're going to expand and not cut probes, I can go and kill you directly with my 1base zealot/immortal/phoenix army. I gotcha but the two build orders you gave show things other than 4gate or DT rushing, like the 24gate and then 24pylon in the defensive 2gate Stargate, or the chronoboost use on Axslav's opening. I was saying most specifically those two builds don't suggest any pressure, and can't have any worthwhile stalker count (2gate vs 3gate) to really threaten or punish anything early on. The 8 stalkers I get are about when I place nexus, sometimes I get 11 or so, but I 99% of the time poke opponents ramp with those and at that time I am able to see sentry, immortal, etc. I do get more after a few probes are out. My opinion in PvP is that you need most flexible build to do well, and any sort of early phoenix builds don't offer that kind of flexibility. Oh, and I find that when I use sentries to defend, any strong early push makes me forgo tech in place of more sentries. I don't think that's the best situation you can be in especially if you were teching to phoenix and now have to build sentries. | ||
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Geiko
France1936 Posts
On December 22 2011 04:02 K3Nyy wrote: Nice guide! :D I have a question though. I always thought Blink Stalker allins was the hard counter to Phoenix play. Your guide says to get Immortals but I don't think you can get 5 Phoenixes, a Robo and Immortals by the time their attack comes. Maybe I'm wrong but can you explain this part a little more? You can lose directly to a blink all-in if you don't scout it and let them get high ground vision. When you scout with your 2 phoenixes, his blink is not finished yet so you have time to prepare at home. Your sentry should be maxed out on energy by that time so you have 4 FFs to hold. If he is not spot on every 15 secs trying to get up your ramp, that can even be 5 FFs with a single sentry and 1min30 of free time for you to get immortals. Once you run out of FFs you will have 1 immortal and another halfway done with 4-5 phoenixes 3-4 stalkers and zealots. Which is more then enough to hold if you follow the instructions on how to engage. At that point your base is saturated while his is not (depending on how many lifts you decided to use on his probes), he has weak tech tree, and he probably lost more army then you trying to bust your ramp. | ||
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Geiko
France1936 Posts
On December 22 2011 04:10 tehemperorer wrote: I gotcha but the two build orders you gave show things other than 4gate or DT rushing, like the 24gate and then 24pylon in the defensive 2gate Stargate, or the chronoboost use on Axslav's opening. I was saying most specifically those two builds don't suggest any pressure, and can't have any worthwhile stalker count (2gate vs 3gate) to really threaten or punish anything early on. The 8 stalkers I get are about when I place nexus, sometimes I get 11 or so, but I 99% of the time poke opponents ramp with those and at that time I am able to see sentry, immortal, etc. My opinion in PvP is that you need most flexible build to do well, and any sort of early phoenix builds don't offer that kind of flexibility. How is getting a gate at 24 indicating that I am not 4 gating ? I'm pretty sure I can do my build like explained in the OP, kill the scouting probe with my stalker, and proceed to 4 gate while being at most 10 seconds late on the 5:40 timing. And once again, I don't see how going for pure blink gives you more flexibility then opening stargate. Edit : In fact here it is. I only tried it once, but I'm sure I could could reach all units warped in at 5:45 just like any other 4 gate. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-247067.jpg) Edit 2 : In fact I have a greedy variant of my build which gets pylon before gate with almost no probe cut, this was the build I faked in my replay. If i were to start off using the build in the OP, I could even cancel my pylon and reach a perfect 4 gate with ~45 less minerals due to canceling pylon and assimilator. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On December 22 2011 04:16 Geiko wrote: How is getting a gate at 24 indicating that I am not 4 gating ? I'm pretty sure I can do my build like explained in the OP, kill the scouting probe with my stalker, and proceed to 4 gate while being at most 10 seconds late on the 5:40 timing. And once again, I don't see how going for pure blink gives you more flexibility then opening stargate. Edit : In fact here it is. I only tried it once, but I'm sure I could could reach all units warped in at 5:45 just like any other 4 gate. Sorry Geiko I edited post after you quoted it. I was saying in general that there are better ways to get phoenix without rushing to them (opinion). I guess it all comes down to preference though, but from my viewpoint (SaroVati PvP Modified 3 Gate Build, no pressure or late pressure, expand get blink) early phoenixes are not the way to go. That being said, I read every word of your post, really liked it, and was convinced that reading it will help me somewhere down the line! :D EDIT: If you're going for a phoenix build from the start, then switch to 4gating, you will most likely warp those units in at or around your base, since 3gate builds patrol for pylons before warp gate is done. EDIT to Edit 2: I don't think you can squeeze in your forward pylons if you don't plan to do that from the start, and then we're talking about 4gate vs 3gate not phoenix. I may be confused though :p EDIT 3: Lemme watch more replays before I comment more :D | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
I differ slightly in opinion on how you should play it though: 1. Phoenix build is a build you should only do when you have a good hunch your opponent is not 4 gating, there is no point in making a phoenix build completely 4 gate proof, as phoenix build is simply not good against that.. It's very hard to differentiate 4 gate from expansion and phoenix build is just not good against either. The solution is simply not to try and force your phoenix build to be 4 gate safe but only to play phoenix when your opponent is not 4 gating or at least doing a very slow version. I simply wait till I see 3 chrono on nexus and quick second gas from my opponent before I decide on stargate. I open gate-stargate-gate with zealot-stalker-stalker from the first gate. If i see they are likely to 4 gate I go robo instead and play gate-robo-gate with zealot-stalker-sentry. Note that since i change stargate to robo (-50 gas + 50 m) and stalker to sentry (+50 gas -75m) both builds are almost identical. ie I only commit by the time i put down my tech building. Also I generally don't go phoenix on relatively close spawns, it just doesn't work well and the 4 gate risk is even bigger. 2. Because of getting stargate greedier i get it faster and i also save a fair bit of chrono to get those first two phoenix super quickly. This allows me to scout much faster which is quite critical against some builds especially dt, (robo) blink and expansion. I also tend to not automatically go robo because I find that makes it harder to hold an aggresive blink all-in (very hard to get an immortal out before it hits) and especially sucks agianst expo and phoenix mirror. A good idea i guess which the guide sort of suggests is to make robo and cancel it against certain things. 3. DT are one of the major weaknesses of phoenix so I think a good suggestion is to make a partial walloff. Make the 3rd pylon covering the ramp and put the second gateway covering a part of the ramp. Then if you scout dt you can immediately wall off using a robo (so it can only be hit by 1 dt) and a cybercore (best hp). It's a more efficient way to fight the DT pressure then always going a sentry imo which doesn't fit the style of phoenix play further on and costs gas you rather spend on more phoenix. 4. Also on maps where the ramp to the natural is narrow (ie shakuras) i like to go forge after stargate instead of robo. Make a cannon on the natural and expand, you're safe from dt and most all-ins then and can conveniently tech to some sort of zealot/archon army focussing on attack upgrades quickly. | ||
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