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Aotearoa39261 Posts
If you feel like a user has been contributing exceptionally well in the Starcraft 2 Strategy forum and has not yet received highlighting, you can suggest that user in this thread. We will only consider nominations of users who have a few examples of their postings attached to their nomination. Here is an example nomination:
I would like to nominate Minigun. Here are some examples of his posts!
+ Show Spoiler +On February 17 2011 20:11 Minigun wrote:This strategy was seen in the GSTL IMSeed(P) vs oGsHyperdub(T) This is not for the lower levels, the people in bronze-low diamond won't even react to the immortals.If you see them fast expand, the goal is to 1 gate FE, into a secret location that cannot be easily scanned/scouted and preferably on your side. You hide your buildings, so he cannot see when you built/ are building them. Research hallucination after warpgate tech is done. You push, hallucinating a few immortals onto his expansion. Make sure you are out of sight when you finally catch sight of his bunkers. DO NOT ENGAGE this is very important. Also, do NOT let them disappear in his line of sight. You make him pull scvs, just wasting mining time for him, and whenever people are under pressure, they GENERALLY tend to make mistakes. They HAVE to pull scvs, they can't afford to be wrong, if they don't it's an easy rofl stomp for you (if you were actually 3 gate 1 roboing). From here you back off, (preferably at your watchtower so he can't scan your army and see no more immortals) and create your third nexus to make it look like a failed 3 gate robo. Now, you throw down a twilight + 2 forges. You get charge, and either dark shrine, or high Templar. If he has easy access to a raven, or missile turrets at each expansion, go high Templar. However if he does not, use warp prism dts! Spread your dts well, and you can do a TON of damage. I will attach a few replays. Sorry I am kinda thin on replays atm, I do not feel like searching through all of them. I'll remember to save any that come up. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=189836 On November 19 2010 06:24 Minigun wrote:A build I've been messing around with. Hard countered by - 4 gate Soft Counter -Fast 3 gate blink stalkers Counter to - Everything else it seems  Rough build order : 9 pylon 13 gate 15 gas 17 pylon 17 cyber 19 zealot chrono out 2 stalkers nexus If you think he's gonna be putting early pressure on you throw down 3x more gates, if not, 2x more gates + robo 2nd gas add on 4-5 stalkers start twilight council get blink+ observer, harass whenever you get the chance, prorities are robo bay, colossi, and nexus's, if he gets too many colos up you will be screwed. You have to do damage, and constantly threaten to blink in for it to work. If you've done all the harassment you can, and it's not going to kill him, switch to DT's + phoenix + observers Few replays... ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-161635.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160578.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160579.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-154414.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-154413.jpg)
Not every nomination will be accepted, but we will discuss it as a staff decide whether the poster has a strong enough history to warrant highlighting.
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Well Plexa, you should be highlighted. I certainly have respect for your advices. I should imagine that a few other of the TL-admins would qualify too. Hotbird etc?
Now, dont temp-ban me for being an asslicker ^^
(That slip of language just balanced that!)
Edit, example:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167992
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I would like to nominate iEchoic, the cunning terran strategist.
His achievements include the creation of innovative and effective terran build orders such as:
1/1/2 Hellion Drop TvP (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146518)
+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2010 08:41 iEchoic wrote:Edit: Mega-Update Sept 17! Changelog:
- Added two new replays
- Added protoss FE to 'adapting to protoss strategies'
- Updated transitioning into lategame to future-proof strategy for patch 1.1
--> Ghosts have been integrated into the build to counter certain compositions
--> Battlecruisers are no longer used due to the nerf in patch 1.1IntroAs my school starts very soon and I probably won't be able to invest the time to try to compete at this game at a high level anymore, I thought I'd write a guide to share some tricks for my most successful matchup before I start to suck at the game. I'll start off by saying that I didn't invent most of the components of this build. I didn't invent 1/1/1 (or 1/1/2), and I did not invent 2starport play. However, I was dissatisfied with the rax/fact/rax/starport/starport opening as I felt the extra building time for the rax and gas wasted on marauder-based bio kept the build from being efficient. I began making a build to increase the efficiency of the two-starport core which is extremely versatile and difficult to counter in TvP. This build is an optimization and stylistic change to the 2-starport play which is becoming increasingly popular. I feel that it is more powerful and more versatile than most 2port play. Build Overview+ Show Spoiler +This build incorporates a fast hellion drop, and a marine/bunker defense into 2-starport play which allows counters to be easily produced. The build is very lean, holding off on the second refinery until after the first starport begins construction, creating mineral-only units, and forgoing any addons until two starports are produced.
The focus of the build is on efficiency, creating an economic advantage through hellion harass, and creating an army while spending the least possible amount of resources and worker time on unnecessary structures and tech. (build orders can only go so far - watch the replays)
The intro build order is as follows:
10 supply
12 rax
>> make marines nonstop
>> oc when rax finishes
13 refinery
(pop counts skipped from here out to account for scouts dying, other oddities, etc)
Factory
>> Make 3 hellions
Bunker
Supply Depot
Starport
Refinery
>> Make medivac when starport complete
>> medivac should pop out about at the same time that you have 3 hellions - go drop
>> As soon as medivac completes, build tech lab on starport and factory
Starport
>> Swap second starport onto factory's tech lab
>> Use excess minerals to expand and add more barracks
>> Push at 2-4 banshees - this is timed such that it will come before psi storm.
Until this point, you should be following the build order strictly. The 1/1/2 with hellion drop is stable and you do not need to branch out until you have two tech-labbed starports.
You are now in what I call the 'triple threat' position. It is called 'triple threat' because it sounds kick-ass and makes the strategy sound like it's prepared for anything. But seriously, this is where your 2port allows you to be versatile. - 3 Hellion drop is incredibly powerful. Basically an insta-win if your opponent is not defending, and even if prepared, you will get at least 4-5 probes if you micro well. The hellion drop is incredibly strong even if you know it's coming ahead of time.
- Hellion drop gives great scouting info and allows you to adapt with your 2starports
- 1/1/2 play allows you to account for all protoss openings
- Standard opening prevents protoss from gathering any info about build before initial scout is forced out by marine
- Very efficient use of minerals - rax and factory produce mineral-only units with no addons non-stop.
- Timings are optimized to spend all minerals at all points throughout the build order - high efficiency Your default units on your starports should be 2x banshees. The 2x banshee+marine build is incredibly powerful, and can beat any composition that does not include storms. The hellion drop provides a well-timed opportunity to scout your opponent and adapt, if necessary: Protoss Fast Expand builds (New!)+ Show Spoiler +Countering a protoss FE first requires understanding the limitations of the protoss FE build and then requires you to exploit those limitations based on scouting information. The 1/1/2 hellion drop is very versatile, allowing you to adapt to exploit your opponent's weaknesses following the first hellion drop. There are several facts which must be realized to understand the counter: #1) The opponent must have both a robotics facility and either a stargate or a templar archives to counter cloaked and uncloaked banshees, respectively. #2) The opponent must have either a robotics bay or a templar archives and psionic storm to counter a mid-game bio + ghost ball. #3) The protoss FE does not pay off immediately. As a result, the protoss player must invest in defense early or risk being killed by an all-in push. Given these facts, it is crucial that you are able to scout adequately and adapt. I've created a flowchart that demonstrates how to best exploit the protoss FE build. ![[image loading]](http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1194/screencaptureqg.png) The flowchart demonstrates that you are forcing your opponent to get costly tech structures in addition to the cost of his fast expand. In the case that he does cover all his bases (robo, + stargate or robo + twilight council + templar archives), he will be unable to deal with a strong ghost+marine+banshee-based timing attack, taking place before storm can be researched, due to the cost of all the structures and tech. But now the question is - how can I get such perfect scouting information? Easy. You have a medivac left after your hellion drop. Instead of sending it back to base, leave it outside the protoss base. Poke in and out with the medivac every once in a while, checking up on your opponent's tech. Keep building marines, and open with two vikings into 2x mass banshees. Focus fire any colossus. If there are no colossus, the robotics bay is a wasteful gas sink and will set your opponent behind, as no other robotics-based units are effective against marines or banshees.
The two vikings are essential to keep colossus from abusing their superior range (for example, by burning down your bunker from safety. However, once this deterrent is created, banshees are actually the better anti-colossus unit.
Banshee DPS vs colossus: ((12 damage per rocket - 1 colossus armor) * 2 rockets) / 1.25 firing speed = 17.6 dps
Viking DPS vs colossus: 13 dps
Banshee dominance over colossus is demonstrated in the replay vs Sinatra. Assuming you have been making marines the entire time (which you should be), you should have 8-9 marines by time the first void ray hits. The void ray can either hit your wall-off or it can attack the back of your base while units attack your ramp. Both are easily stopped by this build. As soon as you see void rays or a starport, do the following: 1) Take any marines not in your bunker (you should have ~4-5 extra) and prepare them at the back of your base. 2) take 4-5 scvs, turn on auto repair, and move them next to the bunker by your ramp. 3) Queue up one viking on each starport. In one production cycle, you will have two vikings, and then you're easily able to hold off any void-ray based play. 4) Follow up with cloaked banshees. Most void ray rushes neglect a robo bay and you can force your opponent into a wasteful tech structure or force them to lose outright. ![[image loading]](http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/8362/bnkr2.png) Place your bunker on the outer-most side of your walloff, forcing void rays to attack from an awkward angle. The answer is obvious here - just make a raven first. But what if you don't find the tech? I always save my third set of 50 energy on my orbital command until I can be sure no DTs are coming or until I get a raven. Also, keep a control group of SCVs on auto repair you can pull quickly to your wall to repair until a raven comes out. Open with two vikings instead of two banshees. Your marine ball + range from the viking will prevent any phoenix harass. Phoenixes will be shot by marines if they attempt to engage the vikings. High templar 'opening' is somewhat of a misnomer. High templar take absolutely forever with storm tech, and your first push (2-4 banshees + marines) should occur before storm tech. If they rush storm ASAP, they will lack detection, and you can punish this with cloaked banshees... If you spot a twilight council with your hellion drop, just open into cloaked banshees. This will force the protoss player to decide between very fast storm and detection. Cancel cloak before it is finished if you see a robo being constructed and spend the money on a fusion core. Build an extra bunker, pull 6-7 scvs to repair, rush cloaked banshees. Collect win. If 4gate+robo, cancel cloak and continue with standard build. The marine/banshee composition has only one weakness - high templar. While the first 2-4 banshee push is timed such that you should not have to deal with high templar, if your push is held off, it will begin to be a concern. Your lategame composition is dependant on your opponent's composition: High templar compositions+ Show Spoiler +High templar builds will always contain a lot of two units - zealots and high templars. Once your opponent's tech path is scouted, immediately place a tech lab on your factory and build an additional factory. Research the preigniter upgrade and begin 2x producing hellions.
Create a ghost academy as well and produce ghosts/marines/marauders. Your starports should now be used to produce medivacs for pre-igniter hellion drops and bio support. Your ghost/medivac/bio/hellion army is very well suited to take on high templar compositions. Mass banshee + bio should handle this easily. Due to their stacking, banshees reach a 'critical mass' where they become more cost efficient with more volume. Double-produce vikings while using excess gas to create marine/marauder/ghost balls. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-152192.jpg) (new!)A lot of people are having trouble with the toss FE still, so I thought I'd give another replay to demonstrate the proper response. Agh (17xx rated protoss) does a FE build, but cannot sustain a robo, a stargate, and a large army (all of which are necessary to prevent harassment or death). I find the weakpoint (no stargate allowing me to exploit banshees) and harass relentlessly. A big problem with the toss FE for most players is the illusion that they are falling behind in macro. The effectiveness you gain from the protoss' limited options should even you out economically - in this game, my economy was on par or greater than my opponent's for the vast majority of the time. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-149696.jpg) (new!)This replay demonstrates the proper response to the situation where you achieve a strong economic advantage due to hellion harass and/or expanding before your opponent. My hellion harass dealt significant damage and my spotting of the robo bay cued me in that my opponent was not expanding (which was verified by later scouting). I decided not to push, but to bunker up and capitalize on my economic advantage, confident that my superior econ would allow me to win the game. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-149697.jpg) (new!)This replay is a demonstration of the 1/1/2 Hellion Drop against a protoss FE. Behind in economy due to the fast expansion, I equalize the economic difference and exploit my opponent's unit composition to punish his greedy build. My drop allowed me to determine his composition and exploit the gap left by my opponent's economic-based build - in this situation, lack of stargate and templar archives, allowing me to abuse mass-banshees for the win. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-141851.jpg) Note that the hellion drop prevents aggression. Time does an aggressive gateway push, but that leaves him open to hellion annihilation. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-141854.jpg) Although I could not get any replays of people holding off the initial push to show my lategame transition, note that two battlecruisers were in production in preparation for the lategame transition. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-141852.jpg) This player was well prepared for my hellion drop. He still lost 5 probes, giving me the economic lead. Note how obnoxiously fast the 6x banshees drop the colossus, leaving my marines free to rip apart the fragile gateway-based army. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-142518.jpg) I uploaded this replay to help people with void ray openings. Notice that there are several ways to watch for void ray openings: 1) Scout all pylon locations. Pylon locations in out-of-position spots should be scouted later - the starport is uncovered with my hellion drop 2) Close air positions should put you on high alert. Be very ready to make a viking and move additional marines to the back 3) Note that I had a ctrl group of scvs (3) on auto-repair so I could quickly pull onto the bunker in case of a two-pronged attack Nova follows with a strong defense, but ultimately he was only able to muster this defense because he neglected his robo bay, which I am able to punish with cloak. Should the opponent stick to robo-based builds or gateway-based builds, you can stick with bio + banshees. Banshees focus-fire colossus incredibly fast. Q: Isn't the hellion drop cheesy? If the opponent knows you're going to do it, it clearly won't work.
A: Anyone who has tried the hellion drop knows how ridiculously strong it is, even when defended. Provided you can drop your hellions before your medivac dies (which is incredibly easy as early in the game as early as this hits) you should get at least 4-5 probe kills even if your opponent is prepared for it. In addition, this forces your opponent into passivity, as if their forces are not defending, you can kill their entire probe line.
Q: Isn't this build weaker on maps like blistering sands where destructible rocks allows protoss to avoid your bunker?
A: Yep. This is the case with a lot of Terran builds on blistering sands. I would recommend pre-emptively placing a second bunker at your destructible rocks after your factory, and moving to defend whatever side is necessary.
Q: I died to void rays, wtf
A: Void rays are counterable with this build, but the two vikings are very important. It is also very important that you never stop building marines. You absolutely need the 8-9 marines you should have by time void rays hit. I've fought off many good void ray rushes with this build. If the void rays approach from an awkward angle and charge up on your wall, bring SCVs to repair both the bunker and the wall as long as possible until your vikings come out. Once your two vikings come out, you will be fine with a little micro. Hope you enjoy it, feel free to ask questions or help me find optimizations - please read through, try it, or at least watch replays before hating :p
2fac2port TvT "iEchoic Build" (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189624)
+ Show Spoiler +On February 02 2011 08:54 iEchoic wrote:Edit: the Day[9] vod is up! Check it out: link - probably the best place to start if you're new. IntroI'm not one who likes using siege tanks in TvT. About a month ago, I began brainstorming a tank-less build & composition with the following properties: - Must be able to react to all TvT openings - Must be very mobile (and gain map control as a result) - Must be able to do economic damage faster than other mobile builds (such as cloaked banshee) The result is a 2fact2port opening that relies on a hellion + air composition. I've found that all Terran compositions can be beaten with only these units: ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/c/cf/Hellion.png/180px-Hellion.png) ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/d/d3/Banshee.png/180px-Banshee.png) ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/c/c0/Viking.png/180px-Viking.png) ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/9/93/Battle_Cruiser.png/180px-Battle_Cruiser.png) As of me writing this, I am a top 50 US player, and I estimate that I win 80-90% of my TvTs. This build has proven to be effective at a high level. I have to mention that this build is very difficult to execute. This is not the type of build you read about, try, and immediately win all your games with. It took me several days to get the basics down, and even now I feel that it could be executed better by players better than I. The mechanics and game sense requirement to execute this is high - lower-level players will find it a good test of their mechanics, and players better than I can probably make it stronger than I can. However, if you have the patience and mechanics to learn it, I guarantee that it will give you a rich payoff. The road to shunning tanks is not an easy one, but it is a rewarding one. Overview+ Show Spoiler +This build utilizes two fast factories and then two fast starports. Infernal pre-igniter is researched as soon as possible. Fast 2 factories gives you a powerful early aggression-stopper (vs marines and hellions), and gives you map control.
A fast medivac is created to give a counter-attack and economic damage threat. This is a hard-counter to rushed cloaked banshees + bunker at front.
The 2 starports give you tremendous flexibility in countering terran openings. Banshees can be countered by simultaneously creating a raven and a viking, while dropping hellions. Reactored starport openings can be countered by actually creating 3 vikings at once instead of two. Marine/tank openings can be countered by creating vikings and banshees simultaneously. The composition basically works the same as muta/ling/bling, and has a similar playstyle.
- Blue flame hellions act as the banelings (they kill marines, and are disposable)
- Banshees act as the muta air-to-ground attack (cleaning up ground units after banelings hit)
- Vikings act as the muta air-to-air attack (holding air superiority).
- Should it get to that point, battlecruisers can act as broodlords, countering thors (although BCs are much easier to get and are also quite good vs marines)
This build works for the same reasons muta/ling/bling does, and as a result, it has the same properties as typical ZvT. This means that:
- This build is more powerful on longer rush distances due to the mobility advantage
- Keeping map awareness and map control is very important
- Losing air control is bad (similar to how losing all your mutas results in you being vulnerable to drops and banshees)
TL;DR: Play like a zerg player. Keep that mentality in mind. NOTE: this build order is very weird. You must watch the replays in order to understand how it functions correctly.
10 supply
12 rax
13 ref
15 OC
15 make one marine, then queue another (only make 2 marines)
16 supply
17 ref
(supply counts discontinued from here - keep making scvs nonstop)
factory
factory
tech lab on rax
swap first factory onto rax
make 1 hellion & get preigniter
make 1 hellion on second factory
>> clear xelnagas with hellion
starport
starport
supply drop (see faq)
medivac
>> poke up ramp with a hellion, try to scout composition
>> build order discontinued here, starport production is dependent on opponent's composition 1) Map control+ Show Spoiler +This build gains early map control over all terran compositions I am aware of. This allows you easy counter attacks (because you see when they leave their base), advance warning, and easy dropship counters. Your viking superiority + hellion mobility renders all enemy drops actually beneficial for you, because everything in the dropship will simply die and the dropship will get shot down, similar to how dropping vs a zerg player who has good map awareness generally ends with mutas killing your drop quickly. 2) Terran Symmetry+ Show Spoiler +Terran units have a lot of symmetry.
Units that shoot air units
Marine (countered by hellions)
Thor (countered by battlecruiser)
Viking (countered by having more vikings, which is easy when you have 2ports)
Ghosts (are terrible)
Only four good terran units actually shoot up (discounting the battlecruiser, because BC is only viable after vikings). These units are all countered by either hellions or air units. Creating air units necessitates the use of one of these three units, and each of these three units must be built in a mass such that they do not die before killing off all air units.
From there, notice:
Air attacks by units that attack air units
Marine (very fast attack speed, low damage)
Thor (fires multiple low-damage rockets)
Viking (fires multiple low-medium-damage rockets)
What does this mean for us? In a late-game composition, upgrading air armor is very strong, due to the low-damage attacks of these units. In addition, these three units are infantry, mech, and air, which makes upgrading all three of them incredibly inefficient. Any one to two of these can be hard-countered with ease.
What else? Two of the three of these attacks (thor, viking) are mitigated by PDD. Since we are using ravens for detection instead of turrets, we have a natural synergy here, and create little inefficiency. 3) Economic Damage+ Show Spoiler +Hellion drops are the most economically damaging harassment in the game. This necessitates leaving defenses in-base at all times. 4) Forcing responses+ Show Spoiler +Banshees necessitate your opponent getting detection. This is either a raven (which is not efficient for him, because we're going to be controlling the air, and his raven will be dying), or an ebay + turrets, which creates inefficiency.
Hellions necessitate your opponent leaving defenses (non-turrets) in his base at all times. This creates additional inefficiency or economic death.
Mass air necessitates mass marine, viking or thor. We are not forced into anything. We do not build turrets, we build a raven. Our raven, should we need to build one, has synergy against two of the three AA options for our opponent. This is a reactive build. You must counter your opponent's openings. Your reaction to your opponent's style will take place in the form of changing the output of your two starports. Your factories will always produce hellions. Think of your factories as your 'core buildings' and your starports as your 'reaction buildings'. While there are more specific instructions below, here's some basic principles: 1) You must always have more vikings than your opponent at all times. This is priority #1. 2) All ground units except thors can be combated with banshees. If your opponent gets thors, you must get battlecruisers. 3) Do not build engineering bays or turrets, ever. You don't need them for air control, and you have a raven for detection. 4) Because your composition is reactive and your composition more mobile, you need to hold map control until your opponent pushes out at all times. As soon as your hellions pop, you need to control the xel'naga towers. This is crucial in fighting off certain pushes. Marine/Tank opening+ Show Spoiler +Tells: no bunker at front, marines only, should see tank on subsequent pokes
Your starports should open 1banshee1viking after your intial medivac. The viking is incase your opponent gets a viking or banshee, and the one banshee is to clean up the remaining marines and then the tanks. This is where controlling the xel'naga towers is very important. If your opponent moves out with his marines and tanks, you need to burn off a majority of the marines with hellions. The xel'naga gives you the vision to see what side of the unit ball the marines are on and get a good attack angle.
Once the marines are dead, roll in with your banshee and clean up, force a retreat. Tells: bunker at front, no tanks or marauders on subsequent pokes up ramp
Your starports should open 1raven1viking after your intitial medivac (swap with factory once preigniter is done). Your hellion drop will likely do huge damage, and dropping fast is a high priority. If the banshee arrives before your viking/raven pop, run your scvs away. You will do much more damage with your hellions than he will with his banshees. Tells: no bunker, but marauders produced.
Your starports should open 2x banshee after your initial medivac. Mass banshee + blue flame hellion mops up bio relatively easily. Research cloak ASAP. In the event of a FE, you need to be very proactive about banshee harass and hellion drops. Tells: usually bunker at the front - can be hard to scout for.
This is the hardest opening for this build, but it is also the most rare. Several other openings like cloaked banshee opening is countered by the Thor opening, so I sometimes consider Thor a 'counter' build instead of a legitimate TvT opener.
You're going to have to go for an economy trade if your opponent attacks. As soon as his thor leaves his base, drop hellions and rack up kills. Open 1banshee/1viking. You really need to go all-in on this thor and do more economic damage to win. Send your SCVs on it, land your vikings if there is no air to shoot, attack with your banshees and hellions. If you execute it right, you should have done more economic damage than your opponent, although it's usually close. Tells: hard to scout for, check starport upon hellion drop. Usually opens with one tank, no bunker
This build relies upon holding air superiority. If your opponent makes 2 vikings at once, make 3. Create reactors on your rax while creating vikings. You should not have a problem holding air superiority as long as you're proactive about scouting for it. - Your barracks, even though not producing, can be incredibly useful. Use it to create reactors and techlabs nonstop, continually lifting to produce more for your factories and starports.
- Your barracks can also be used to lift and scout your opponent's base on scrap and close-air metal/LT.
- Air armor is your #1 priority for upgrades Q: Why the supply drop?
A: The supply drop gives you an instant benefit of 100 minerals, and a benefit of 50 additional minerals from the opportunity cost of not building a supply depot over the course of a supply depot build time. A MULE gives you 270 minerals over the course of 90 seconds. The supply drop is placed in the build at a key point where minerals are very tight. Saving 100 immediate minerals allows you to produce a second starport while continuing hellions - something not possible using a MULE.
Q: What are the expo timings?
A: I play this by ear. If your opponent is turtling, it's generally safe to keep expanding. If your opponent is being aggressive, keep producing. Think of it like a zerg player would. See replay vs ThisIsJimmy to see a quick 3rd base vs a turtling opponent or my game vs Sixto to see a more 1-base play.
Q: Why 2facts? Why not just make a reactor?
A: 2facts allows you to create 2x hellions while researching preigniter. It removes the inherent danger that comes with using only one factory to produce hellions. 2factories makes you much safer vs 2rax openings and early cheese, and gives you infrastructure for later down the road.
Q: Do you get cloak?
A: I only get cloak if I know my opponent will not have mobile detection soon (FE, bio), and sometimes not even then. Banshees are more of a combat unit than a stealth unit for me, although you can play around with this.
More will be added here as questions come in. One thing that I think is important to learn is the difference between guaranteed hellion drops and gambled hellion drops. We'll define these as:
Guaranteed Drops: these are drops that you can expect to do economic damage with because, from scouting, you know the opponent has a vulnerability. It is reasonable to expect damage to be done, and if it is not, you may or may not be behind.
Gambled drops: these are drops that you do to force your opponent to keep troops in his base or exploit his weaknesses in defense. These builds are a gamble because they may or may not work, and you should never use them if they will put you significantly behind if they fail.
It is important to note that the build never relies on gambled drops to win. That is not to say that you shouldn't use them - they can be very powerful, and have other tangible benefits, such as forcing your opponent to build turrets, sensor towers, and keep units in his base. But your strategy should never rely on these to win, as they can be stopped without doing damage.
Situations where you can expect a guaranteed drop:
- If your opponent opens fast thor and moves his thor out of his base
- If your opponent opens quick cloaked banshee
- If your opponent FEs (the amount of units produced by a FE by drop time is not sufficient to kill your hellions before they do damage, especially considering they need to be spread over two bases)
- If your opponent is moving out of his base to attack you. Note that there are two situations here: your opponent leaves no units in his base, or he leaves units in his base to defend. Either one is considered damage, because leaving units in your base to defend reduces the size of his attacking force, and having no units forces guaranteed damage.
Situations where you have a gambled drop:
- Any situation where an opponent's army is sitting in his base
- Any 1base-vs-1base situation where your opponent has not moved out to attack At the bottom of this section is the option to download a small replay pack of 7 replays. I've picked out a couple choice replays though, below. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-185700.jpg) This demonstrates a response to a heavy bio/FE play. Note how much my macro slips, going 1k/1k resources at one point. Also notice the quick 3rd base in response to his heavy turtling. Still a relatively easy win, despite getting minimal damage with the initial hellion drop. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-185698.jpg) This replay demonstrates a game vs an aggressive marine + hellion attack. Blue flame does a very easy job repelling enemy drops and punishing aggressive openers by killing SCVs. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-185702.jpg) The first question I always get is 'don't you just die to a tank/marine push'? This demonstrates the proper response. It is cleaned up with ease, and an easy win ensues. Download entire replay pack (7 replays): linkAlso see: vileDeathRow vs Drewbie (by PsyStarcraft): linkEdit: VTPokebunny has posted some reps of him executing it well, worth watching: Edit: MatronStarcraft has casted a game:
Additionally, his TvP build is featured on liquipedia and his TvT build was analyzed by Day[9] in his show, providing legitimacy to their effectiveness.
In conclusion, because of these strategies I believe iEchoic is a premier poster in the strategy section with unparalleled tactical acumen. Thank you for your attention and your kind consideration.
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I second iEchoic. I've been using his helion banshee build nonstop to great effect.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
We've decided that with exception to the liquid members, that people with red names and blue bars don't need the highlighting. We already stick out like a sore thumb !! This policy might change, but at least for now we're happy with just featuring non-red/admins.
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Hyrule19019 Posts
Third on iEchoic.
Other people who I think should have highlighting include people like PainUser and a number of casters such as Wolf, Raelcun, Ipp, and TheGunrun. While they don't post much in Strategy (or at all), they have proven on their streams that they know what they are talking about, and getting highlight status may persuade them to post more often.
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I am going to nominate
PJA
(also known as vVvTime) - He is an amazing strategist and posts on the many PvX threads I think he could be a very valuable asset to the strategy forums, especially if his posts stood out more instead of getting overlooked. He has many accomplishments and is a pretty well known player. I believe he deserves this highlight on his strategy posts
Some examples of his posts
+ Show Spoiler +On August 13 2010 01:41 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 04:53 chair wrote:On August 11 2010 04:14 PJA wrote:On August 11 2010 01:31 chair wrote:
Protoss have a hard enough time surviving a 2 marauder / 1 marine timing push with zealot + stalker or sentry.
How the hell does spending 400 on a nexus survive this? Which protoss are you watching??2 zealot+1 stalker+warpgates about to finish>>>2 marauder/1 marine. Zealots tank marauder shots like champions. HuK, if you're so curious. Believe it was a QxC vs HuK game which made this popular Well first of all, I doubt QXC made 2 marauder/1 marine popular, since terrans have been doing it for such a long time. Also, HuK is the greediest non-asian toss ever. He never makes a zealot before stalker, he chrono boosts constantly on probes, etc. etc. Even with that, I rarely see him lose to early aggression, and all of the other strong players make more units early game. White-Ra almost always has out 2 zealots before the first stalker, so does socke, kiwikaki, etc.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 02 2011 10:33 Kishuu wrote:
@PJA that's why people said to me. But I can't hold 10 minute mark roach pushes with it. Do you have any particular build order to help me out?
Get 2nd gas early, make 2nd+3rd gate when you have money. Make 1 zealot+lots of sentries. Nexus when warpgate finishes. Rearrange 2nd gas/first zealot/where chrono boosts are allocated based on what your opponent is doing so you don't die.
Get forge, cannons, +1 attack quickly. Cannons are cost effective against roach/ling/baneling/whatever early especially with force fields, so you shouldn't die. From here it's preference/map specific.
Get stargate for early void to harass/possibly cancel 3rd or to make some phoenix and pick stuff off. Or you can get 4th gate and do timing attack to kill greedy third, or you can make robo to scout with obs/possibly deny greedy 3rd with immortal. Or you can do any of the above and play more passively and take your 3rd faster.
Basically just keep doing it until you learn how to use force field to not die, then do whatever you want.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 14:45 justnny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2011 13:48 PJA wrote:
All of the responses here have been telling you what unit composition you need to have to defend this rush, or little micro mistakes that hardly matter at all. What they aren't telling you is the real reason you're losing: Your macro is really bad.
You get supply blocked at 28, and you begin producing lings immediately upon seeing several zealots in his base. He clearly has not moved out yet, and it is very unlikely that he has a proxy pylon down yet, so you don't need to worry about him running you over for at least another 1.5-2 minutes. In that time, you need to not get supply blocked and produce another round of drones. The extra 7-8 drones will let you continuously pump roach/ling off two queens with larva inject, which will overrun any 3-4 gate as long as you don't lose overlords/get supply blocked more.
I'm open to bad macro and bad decision making as the reasons. I find myself either not making enough overlords or too many and am, at times, lost as to when to build units and when to build drones.
The loss in the first game was an epic supply block on 28, followed by overcompensation with 3x overlords. Follow that up with some overlord snipes for another supply block and it was over. The supply block crippled my army size immensely. I had the same thing happen at 32 supply during a blink stalker rush last night. Can I claim warmup, since this was my first game of the night?
In the second game, I'd like to explain why I made lings when I saw zealots: I don't feel like I can produce enough units without a head start. If the lings aren't going to be good against the zealots they will be good against stalkers or for a run-by. The roach warren started after seeing his zealots step out, so I was aware of the correct unit choice. The warren was late, so making lings felt better than drones because I was increasing my army size. An extra round of drones seems counter-intuitive when I have excess of money from losing my natural. Logically, I need more attacking units, not less.
I hadn't watched the second replay when I made my post, so those comments were just with respect to game 1. I watched the second game later.
In the 2nd game, you lost a lot of zerglings trying to counter and/or engage in disadvantageous spots. However, you would have been a lot better off macroing better. For example, when your pool finishes you make 10 zerglings before returning to drone production.
What is the purpose of those 10 lings? Your opponent wasn't chrono boosting his gateway, and it wasn't even constantly producing zealots, so there's no chance of him doing some 2 zealot harass or something (even if he was, the long rush distance on xel'naga makes your 10 lings way too early). You can easily accomplish your goals of scouting, controlling the xel'naga towers and checking for proxy pylons/hidden probes with 4 lings, meaning 3 more drones early on. The spine crawler on top of it seems really excessive. Mind you, I'm a toss player, so I don't know zerg build orders that well, but I just can't think of any possible threats the toss player could have in this situation where you need 10 lings so early and the spine crawler.
Also, if you make the 10 lings like you did, DO NOT run up the ramp with all of them blind like you did at 5:35. Had your opponent been doing anything standard he'd have a sentry, force field behind them, and kill all of them without losing even a single point of hull damage on a zealot.
As for feeling like you can't have more units unless you have a headstart, this is due to your inexperience and poor macro. In the second game, rather than having made 10 zerglings, then another 30, you could have made 4 zerglings, 3 drones, a queen, 5 more drones, and then produced the exact same 30 lings due to having more larva injects, while still having +8 drones and an extra queen. Considering the fact that your first 10 lings killed a total of 0 units before dying, you won't have any less of a head start by making less lings early on.
As you can see he makes very quality posts and controls himself pretty well considering he gets told off by players in platinum. I think this is what the strategy forum needs.
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I'd hate for this thread to turn into iEchoic spam, but if community support is what helps these people achieve highlighted status, I'd like to nominate him as well, he's provided several in-depth, innovative strategy guides that have been highlighted in above posts, as well as providing quality feedback to players that ask about his strategies or about Terran strategy in general. As a Random player whose worst race is Terran by far, he has helped me a lot with TvP and TvT.
In addition, I'd like to nominate MrBitter, who most recently put up his guide to a non-Mutalisk mid-game ZvT which people (including myself) seem to love:
+ Show Spoiler +ey guys, I've been working on this style for a while, and I feel like I've finally gotten it to a point that warrants some serious discussion here on TL. A few weeks ago, I brought LZGamer on my show to talk about ZvT. To my surprise, he told me that he has a much easier time dealing with a Zerg player who's massing mutas than he does against one building infestors. We worked on the style for about 2 hours, but really only managed to scratch the surface of this powerful build. You can see the VOD of the event here: http://mrbitter.blip.tv/file/4663284/Since then, in literally 100% of my ZvTs, I've skipped mutas (at least initially) in favor of getting faster infestors. For some perspective, I'm playing between 3100-3200 masters, and practice with top 200 players on a regular basis. Here's the build, as I play it. Importantly, you can open up however you like. This style of play doesn't really deviate from a standard mutalisk build until lair is started. - 15 Hatch - 16 Pool - 21 Gas - @ first 100 gas: ling speed - @ second 100 gas: lair Straight up, and simple. Nothing fancy thus far. Importantly, understand that you will need to deviate if Terran is doing something silly. If he's 4 raxing you, you're obviously going to want banelings before lair. If he's gone 1 rax expand, then you could probably get away with as little as 2 lings. As is always the case when playing Zerg, you have to be very reactive and adaptive. After starting lair, things get a little bit more specific. - Immediately go up to 4 gasses (you've only been mining on one thus far) - And add double evo chambers. While infestors are very powerful units, the strength of this build isn't solely in the infestor. By skipping mutas (at least initially) we're literally freeing up thousands of gas. This gas has to go somewhere, and upgrades are going to be the first place you put it. People so often fail to realize how efficiently zerglings are able to trade with marines when appropriately upgraded. This is further compounded when the fight happens under fungal growth. - +1/+1 should be started immediately - And as soon as lair finishes, your infestation pit needs to go down, with the energy upgrade following right behind it This is where the build really opens up and becomes so powerful. When going muta/ling/bane, you're basically conceding that the Terran player has the stronger army, and making up for that by using your high mobility mutas to harass. Its extremely difficult to engage a Terran ball, but you gain lots of map control. Infestors are exactly the opposite. You're essentially giving up map control until you have your first 3-5 infestors out, but you're doing so in exchange for the stronger standing army. Your play-style has to reflect this. You don't want to get aggressive until your infestors are out, but once they hit the map, you have to start challening the Terran player for map control, and actively looking to make good trades. While this is happening, you want to expand everywhere. Trading is a very important concept for Zerg players to understand. The backbone of the Terran army is the siege tank. We can engage marines, marauders, hellions, thors, and banshees, but as soon as we get in range of a siege line, we have to back off. It's wired into our systems as Zerg players. Siege tanks kill banelings, and banelings are what we rely on to engage everything else. This changes when playing infestors. Instead of engaging up TO siege lines, and then backing off, we want to engage the siege line directly, and crush it. Fungal growth will deal with marines, and upgraded lings work wonders against tanks. When tank numbers get critical, we'll simply add in neural parasite, and use it to halve the tank numbers, once again allowing us to engage the Terran ball. Back to the build, after +1/+1 completes: - +2/+2 - Hive - If you haven't added a spire and a baneling nest yet, this is when they both go down Infestor/Ling will completely dominate a mid-game Terran army, but eventually, Terran is going to get some significant medivac numbers out, and we'll no longer be able to rely on fungal to control marines. At this point, we have to add in ultras and banelings. There is an awesome thread about the strength of ultra/bane here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187434Ultras get a bad rap, in my opinion, BECAUSE of muta/ling/bane. A Zerg player going muta/ling/bane will have invested so much gas into banes and mutas that when he finally makes his first ultralisk, he'll have either not upgraded them at all, or will have only gone as far as +1/+1. Playing this infestor style with such a heavy focus on upgrades changes that. +2/+2 will be done when hive finishes, and +3/+3 should be following closely behind. Add in the ultra armor upgrade, and you get +5/+3 ultras that are to be supported by fungal growth, banelings, and +3/+3 cracklings. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why this is a powerful army composition. Another beautiful little detail about our reliance on infestors and lings in the mid-game is the fact that our army is sooo cheap. Not only is it cheap in terms of resources invested, but its very cheap in terms of supply. It's not uncommon, when playing this style, for your 150 food army to actually have more stuff in it than the 180 food Terran army. This gives us lots of extra resources and supply room to add in those ultras. Here are some replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/139481-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolishttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137424-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-cavernshttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133327-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateauhttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/131900-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolishttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/131899-1v1-terran-zerg-blistering-sandsAnd here's one of IdrA doing it far better than me: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140681-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsTLDR: Strengths of the build: A stronger standing army with a very cost effective, inexpensive mid-game Weaknesses of the build: Banshee play can be tough to handle without lots of queens Mobility - dealing with drops is possible, but it means splitting up your army on a whim, and spot-on control. We give up early game map-control in exchange for the stronger standing army Other important details: Just because we skip mutas initially doesn't mean we can never add them. A mid-game muta transition can be extremely effective against a Terran player who hasn't added any turrets to his natural or his third. Roaches are another great transitional unit, especially as mech play is becoming more and more popular. Speaking of mech: Don't forget to research and use neural parasite. Never stop teching or upgrading. With such a cheap army, there's no reason to not hit hive in like 14 minutes, and to have your entire tech tree running by 16.
Not to mention 12 weeks with the pros, while its not in the strategy forum, there's no question it provides a positive force on TL.
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I quadruple nominate iEchoic:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189624
Additionally, Artosis and Day9 might be good people to highlight as well even though they don't post much in the strategy section anymore. Who knows, it might encourage them! ^_^
Also, Plexa you guys should totally highlight red names/blue bars just so they REALLY pop out! I think for continuity sake, having a standard, uniform means for determining who is a quality poster is a great idea. Uniform measurement leads to good results even if this isn't a laboratory 
Edit: Is Gretorp would be a good one if there isn't already some sort of highlighting mechanism for him?
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On February 17 2011 23:24 Plexa wrote:
We've decided that with exception to the liquid members, that people with red names and blue bars don't need the highlighting. We already stick out like a sore thumb !! This policy might change, but at least for now we're happy with just featuring non-red/admins.
Just my opinion, the blue highlighting is like much better for me and easier to pick out in some of the longer posts. If there were a way to highlight pages that had blue posts on them too that would be cool (again, apologize for random requests), but in pages that get so long that you can't "All" them anymore, it's hard to find the most useful posts sometimes by good users.
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The more I think about it the more I agree that this is the best solution to all the discussion there's been. TL staff can be pretty slow, but they deliver. 
edit: OOPS this was the nominate thread. Okay I'll nominate Gretorp. I know he hasn't been posting a whole lot in the sc2 strategy forum, but I think it would be good to give the guy some incentive to participate in discussions. He wrote some really good posts in bw strategy and the guy seems to have a very deep and profound understanding of the game.
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I second the nomination of MrBitter. Nobody has done a better job at making top level SC2 strategy available to the masses.
In addition I would like to nominate Alejandrisha.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 27 2011 04:26 Alejandrisha wrote:
this is the ideal composition that you want to end up with. the only issue is the ordering. If you open stargate its very hard to secure 3 bases until you get stargates, THEN void rays, THEN robo, THEN colosi.
If you're playing against a zerg who is as good as you are, he's going to smash you (unless it's jungle basin) if you're playing too passive and only have void rays + gateway units.
The way you want this composition to form is by opening gateway + robo because from there you can secure a 3rd much faster since you have colosi and forcefields so the zerg has to engage on your terms (the only map this doesn't really apply to is scrap station because of your relative immobility). You can support a robo and a whole bunch of gates on these 3 bases, and then as you take a 4th feel free to add on 3 stargates.
In the late game, void rays are extremely potent because the the late game zerg arsenal will be primarily roach hydra with the addition of brood lords (and maybe some left over corruptors) or ling/roach/ultra (not as common these days) and a stalker/sentry/collossus/void ray army is pretty much unkillable against either composition. This is really only if you have a stalker/sentry/col army against roach/hydra/corruptor and it's at that awkward stage where you feel or scout broodlords on the way and blink alone won't get the job done if you try to attack. showing up with a handful of void rays does disgusting things to broodlords :D
+ Show Spoiler +On February 13 2011 16:25 Alejandrisha wrote:
the build is not meant to be very sustainable.. in fact the strongest ones cut probes at 20 (16 mins 3 gas 1 to proxy)
the way the timings line up, it gives you the max amount of proxied units, 6 stalker 1 zealot at ~5:40 and then 4 zealots shortly thereafter. after that, you can't really support all 4 gateways but you have the highest amount of units possible at the given time. I think you can sustain about 3 stalker cool downs and almost 4 zealot cool downs while adding a pylon here and there, but if you only had 3 gateways you wouldn't have that burst and you'd have quite a trust fund mounting and you would be choked on wg cool downs to spend it
It's not just the content of his posts that make him worth highlighting, though. I've seen him beat Ret and Machine on stream so he is clearly one of the best players to post in the strategy forum.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Does Alejandrisha have an aka?
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liquid`nazgul isnt on the list, is this intentional?
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Calgary25977 Posts
On February 18 2011 04:54 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
liquid`nazgul isnt on the list, is this intentional?
He will be highlighted in threads about Blink Stalkers.
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I'd like to nominate  PredY. Should be pretty self explanatory based on his high level of play. PredY doesn't necessary post really long guides, but he shares his extensive experience experimenting with different play styles. I often see him responding to questions people have about his decision making in professional games. Here are some of his posts:
+ Show Spoiler +Biomech guide: Read the thread here. It's an extensive guide that's been updated several times with additional replays and commentary. You'll also notice in the thread that PredY's been really good about responding to questions. Biomech playstyle: On December 30 2010 22:29 PredY wrote:
i wonder if there are just no thread or whatever but biomech seems to be the best build for me. and im not talking about 1factory or 2factory biomech but 3/4rax 4/5factory 1/2starports biomech with MMM tank hellion ghost viking, thats really good combo that can counter everything (even P air). i've had a great succes with it and with MMM you dont have to be worried about blink stalkers abusing your tank immobility and with marines/vikings (perhaps even thors) to counter protoss air.
basically i go reactor marine expand into 1 or 2 factory (tanks or hellions), add more rax so im on about 3rax 2fact or 4rax 1fact on 2 base and take 3rd quickly, play defensively, onnce im on 3base i get ghosts and more factories and aim for deadly 200/200 push with combo mentioned above On SjoW's double factory TvP build: On February 14 2011 02:40 PredY wrote:
i saw sjow do it on delta q vs someone
i use it on xelnaga caverns from time to time but differently. going reactor barax first, take second gas before first factory and also get blue flame, you get a lot of marines so you dont die vs voidrays, you can push fast expanding protoss with 3tank about 12 marines and rallying hellions and usually win. if youre good enough and can see if something's up and expect DTs and get turrets then you can use this, but the expand is REALLY late so as every 1base build, quite risky
obviously stargate voidray or phoenix are the best openings vs this, probably blink as well
but it's really fun because it reminds me of bw On stopping a proxy gate: On November 10 2010 21:48 PredY wrote:
there are a few scenarios.
if you don't scout his proxy and go straight to his base and see no gateways, just put down a bunker IMMEDIATELY somewhere close to your scvs and depots (the building placement management is crucial here, try to learn put buildings close to each other in the beggining). then it depends on your build, you can go fast starport for cloak banshee tech and it's mostly autowin.
if you scout the proxy, if it's 1 gate, go the same as in previous scenario but banshee isn't autowin anymore because he didn't commit that much. if it's 2gate, go the same thing again.
if it;s 2gate in your base and you scout it (if not you're dead), you can either pull like 6-7 scvs and kill the gateways (NOT the pylons), or what i prefer cancel gas and put down 2nd barax, then immediately when first rax is done, start building a bunker close to his gateways so you can shoot them down.
also the micro is obviously important here, try not to lose scvs, and with marines you can semi-succesfully kite the zealots
Link to TL account: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/profile.php?user=PreDy .
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On February 18 2011 00:35 tofucake wrote:
Third on iEchoic.
Other people who I think should have highlighting include people like PainUser and a number of casters such as Wolf, Raelcun, Ipp, and TheGunrun. While they don't post much in Strategy (or at all), they have proven on their streams that they know what they are talking about, and getting highlight status may persuade them to post more often.
I strongly disagree with this. In fact, with a few possible exceptions, casters should not be highlighted. There's a difference between providing entertaining casts that are easily available to the masses and providing helpful, solid advice to particular situations. We set the bar pretty high in terms of knowing whats up for highlighted users.
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He's already highlighted.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/OzB5K.png)
