EPTBeyond All Reason
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CicadaSC
United States1600 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1600 Posts
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juztjghjztgh
2 Posts
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FaCE_1
Canada6170 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17243 Posts
On April 01 2023 17:41 CicadaSC wrote: no one playing this? looking for people to learn with I will be probably getting into it with some friends just don't know when exactly as I have quite a few other things on my plate now that'll take some time to wrap up. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17243 Posts
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On April 01 2023 17:41 CicadaSC wrote: no one playing this? looking for people to learn with Forged Alliance Forever is probably a good community to look up if you're trying to find people who play this. Everyone who's a fan of Total Annihilation / Supreme Commander / BAR play there. | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2577 Posts
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Perfi2_0
Poland40 Posts
I would honestly recommend trying it out just to see the wonder that is drag move. It completely changes every assumption I'd had about unit micro. Active abilities are very scarce, but instead there's like, what, 200 units per faction? The official Discord is pretty active, and I've been helping out in onboarding new players there. If you'd like, hit me up - look for Perfi  | ||
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ZeroByte13
761 Posts
Most RTS had 12-25 units per faction, and even then often some of them quite overlapped and you'd usually use only the most optimal one and almost never the other one(s). To be clear - I'm not dissing B.A.R. or doubt that this works for the game. But I did always find tighter unit roster with more unique/charismatic units to be more interesting and easier to immerse myself into. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17243 Posts
On April 18 2023 20:11 ZeroByte13 wrote: Re: 200 units per faction... how is it even possible to make them all unique, recognizable and "charismatic" enough to have the actual reason to use them all, besides wanting to see them all at least once in principle? Most RTS had 12-25 units per faction, and even then often some of them quite overlapped and you'd usually use only the most optimal one and almost never the other one(s). To be clear - I'm not dissing B.A.R. or doubt that this works for the game. But I did always find tighter unit roster with more unique/charismatic units to be more interesting and easier to immerse myself into. The units themselves are not that much different (apart from a few "ultimate" units that give their faction identity). The main difference between factions is basically "a bit more speed and flexibility" vs "a bit more range and power" so on each side for the most part you have exactly the same units that differ in visuals and have slight variation in stats (a bit like WarCraft 2 for example). From what I've seen so far while you don't get to see every unit every game it looks like all of them have their applications in certain scenarios so pretty much all of the roster is being used. There don't seem to be any "useless" units that no one ever builds. Some are maybe not useful to go for out of the gate as your main focus but are situational hard counter to your opponent's current composition (since people tend to switch techs several times over the course of a game). | ||
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ZeroByte13
761 Posts
From what I recall, TA didn't have tech buildings like Blizzard RTS or Westwood RTS have. And B.A.R. uses TA model. As long as you have, say, T2 Air Factory - you're able to build all possible T2 air units, no? So they change army compositions, not tech per se. ...but I guess it's more of semantics thing. | ||
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Perfi2_0
Poland40 Posts
On April 20 2023 20:07 ZeroByte13 wrote: Is there even such a thing as tech switch? Oh yeah, that's one more thing that really threw me for a loop coming from SC2. Let me start out by saying that yes, there absolutely are tech switches. For example, a common situation that happens in 1v1 or between two front line players is that the game turns into a stalemate - both players are hiding in a light laser turret forest and poking at each other with rocket bots, which have the highest range out of all T1 bots. Mobile artillery is extremely helpful, as it outranges rocket bots and has a decent bit of AoE, but you do need a T1 vehicle factory for it. Here's the cool part - the reclaim mechanic lets you destroy any unit or structure you or your enemies have built, recovering 100% of the metal cost (0% of the energy cost, and you do need build power available to quickly build and/or reclaim stuff, so build time is another hidden cost). This means, when you get into a stalemate like that, you can quickly reclaim your T1 bot lab and use it to fund the transition to vehicles. However, what's more... given enough energy and build power, there's nothing stopping you from getting a few of those mobile artilleries AND THEN quickly reclaiming the T1 vehicle lab again, just to transition into, say, air or T2 or whatever. So tech switches have the potential to be much more "transient", in a sense. Remember though that it's still limited by the resources your spending on energy and buildpower, so if you do too much flashy finesse stuff, the enemy might just roll over you. | ||
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ZeroByte13
761 Posts
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Perfi2_0
Poland40 Posts
On April 18 2023 20:11 ZeroByte13 wrote: Re: 200 units per faction... how is it even possible to make them all unique, recognizable and "charismatic" enough to have the actual reason to use them all, besides wanting to see them all at least once in principle? Most RTS had 12-25 units per faction, and even then often some of them quite overlapped and you'd usually use only the most optimal one and almost never the other one(s). To be clear - I'm not dissing B.A.R. or doubt that this works for the game. But I did always find tighter unit roster with more unique/charismatic units to be more interesting and easier to immerse myself into. Just to get back to this... it's just different. I'll be the first to admit I did get overwhelmed initially, but it's like... both factions have the same basic tools; and on top of that, bots, vehicles, hovercraft, aircraft and navy also share some of the same basic toolbox. For example, pretty much all of them have a constructor; a very fast scout/harassment unit; a direct combat brawler; something to punish static defense; an anti air unit. Once you start seeing the game in terms of these patterns, it becomes much less overwhelming. This also means there's no "Well, you're a Zerg without a lair, your only AA is a turret and a macro mechanic on legs" problem. But it's not all completely flat and mirrored either: T1 vehicles have relatively weaker AA options, but these double as long range ground poke/vision provider tools. And there is plenty of room for individual unit personality within that. Take the Hound vs Sheldon; both are mortar units, but Sheldons have a fair bit longer range and double as sort-of-snipers, but can be overwhelmed at close distances. Hounds are the Armada counterpart, but they're more mobile and can switch to a lower-dps, short range, high accuracy mode that lets them deal with fast raiders in a pinch. Or Cortex Fiends (firebats with constant stim that explode), or Armada snipers (just what it says on the tin, but with cloak). All immediately recognizable units that you just learn to respect after dying to them once. TL;DR: it's complicated, but in a good way. | ||
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ZeroByte13
761 Posts
You could also add 50 more units in SC2 in a "marine but 100hp and 2x price" or "roach but attacks air" fashion. But then all the units would be less unique and charismatic than they're now. In SC2 most units have not one but many unique/defining features about them. There are no "just like X, but bigger" or "just like X, but faster" units, and I feel this is somewhat inevitable with 100+ units per faction. How do you even come up with 100+ unit designs per faction (200+ in total) so they all have multiple unique features about them? Or am I wrong? | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17243 Posts
On April 20 2023 21:40 ZeroByte13 wrote: I wasn't saying all the units are the same, but more like - I'd guess a marine or a stalker or a HT or a siege tanks are probably much more unique both inside their respective arsenal and in overall game unit roster than any units can be when they're a part of 100+ unit roster. You could also add 50 more units in SC2 in a "marine but 100hp and 2x price" or "roach but attacks air" fashion. But then all the units would be less unique and charismatic than they're now. In SC2 most units have not one but many unique/defining features about them. There are no "just like X, but bigger" or "just like X, but faster" units, and I feel this is somewhat inevitable with 100+ units per faction. How do you even come up with 100+ unit designs per faction (200+ in total) so they all have multiple unique features about them? Or am I wrong? It's rather easy actually. If you consider different roles and then multiply them: constructor - bot, vehicle, air, water (different tiers of those too) short range brawler - bot, vehicle, air, water... You get the gist of it. You have a number of different roles that different units can perform and then you have to extrapolate it over different kinds of units and tech tiers which reduces the overall number. Basically, you shouldn't look at "different units" but rather the number of "different archetypes" and the number will be much more manageable. It might seem like a lot of redundancy but it's not when you come to think about it since different versions of the same archetype will have different applications (imagine if in SC2 you could build DT or flying DT). | ||
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ZeroByte13
761 Posts
Factions would be less unique if Protoss had flying DTs and Terrans had a BC with super high range mini-yamato (too similar to Tempest), or if Terrans had fast melee units (too similar to lings or zealots), etc. Yes, you could make all these units a little bit different from their counterpart, but still the overall uniqueness would decrease quite a bit. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17243 Posts
On April 20 2023 22:53 ZeroByte13 wrote: Flying DT is a banshee so it already exists But not within the same faction. The thing is, if you had both regular DT and flying DT as Protoss. | ||
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ZeroByte13
761 Posts
Starcraft is known to have probably the most asymmetrical and unique factions in the genre, at least among popular games. In Blizz RTS (starting with SC1) every faction has a vastly different toolbox from other factions. TA / SupCom on another hand are known to have mostly similar factions and less unique units - but many, many more of them. In these games all factions has access to more or less the same toolbox with LOTS of tools, but they are not so different from their counterparts. Of course there's a lot of small differences here and there, and they often matter - but it's nowhere near the level of faction/units uniqueness of SC2, for example. It doesn't make these games bad, of course - they have their own set of strengths and features. | ||
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