EPTAlso... if the units look the same to you in TA/BAR I think that's because you're not familiar with the game. I can understand that they look similar visually, but in terms of capability there're very few units that act particularly similar. It's like saying dragoons hydralisks and marines are basically the same unit.
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Southlight
United States11751 Posts
Also... if the units look the same to you in TA/BAR I think that's because you're not familiar with the game. I can understand that they look similar visually, but in terms of capability there're very few units that act particularly similar. It's like saying dragoons hydralisks and marines are basically the same unit. | ||
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ZeroByte13
744 Posts
I played TA and SupCom quite a bit, they are great games and rightfully are 5th most important classic RTS family together with Blizzard, Westwood, Relics and AoE families. And units do differ of course - but Blizz RTS units differ much more, at least in my experience. The amount of diversity that Blizz RTS games share across ~40-50 units, TA/SupCom share across 170+. Marine vs Zealot or Marauder vs Stalker (same "positions", if such concept would even exist in SC2) feel significantly more different to me than any T1 units from TA. TA units of the same tier/role are different of course, and quite a bit, but not nearly as much in my experience. | ||
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Southlight
United States11751 Posts
That also goes top to bottom in terms of the hard->easy in dodging the projectiles. Each unit leads to a different opener direction and deals with each other (for mirrors/team matches) and their CORE counterparts in varying ways, including that the counterparts don't even necessarily have the same weapon/projectile archetype. | ||
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ZeroByte13
744 Posts
TA has 85 units per side, and in a late game when you have enough production capacity and money, you usually use a small part of your arsenal and basically stop using many if not most T1 units, don't you? That's what I noticed for myself, at least. But I'm not a great TA player at all, of course, so I might be wrong and maybe most of these 85 units are actually used by good players thoughout most of the game. I might be clueless here, and can only speak from my own experience and my friend's. Who btw loves TA, SupCom and B.A.R. much more than he loves SC2, but his feeling about faction/units uniqueness is more or less the same as mine. (though FAF did quite a bit of rebalance to make it better). Then again, I saw a guy claiming (seriously) that factions in AoE2 are more unique than factions in SC2, so beauty is in the eye of beholder, I guess. | ||
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Southlight
United States11751 Posts
BAR takes it further - as far as I can tell in the tournaments with "pro" players 80-90% of armies are comprised of T1 units... T2 tech happens relatively later in the game and generally creates specialized units that help strengthen or push a certain scenario (ie. hold a siege, break a siege, attempt a hail-mary bombardment, etc.). Edit: To add to that CORE Kbot thing, T2 Kbots were:
Not one of these are going to form the basis of your army late-game. Hence, the Storm and Thuds continuing to comprise the bulk of your army. | ||
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ZeroByte13
744 Posts
On April 21 2023 06:54 Southlight wrote: Which is how I'd balance T1 and T2, so I like this approach.T2 tech happens relatively later in the game and generally creates specialized units that help strengthen or push a certain scenario (ie. hold a siege, break a siege, attempt a hail-mary bombardment, etc.).. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17174 Posts
On April 21 2023 06:54 Southlight wrote: It's a different type of game - but also BAR handles it better. With that said, ARM Kbots have a very distinct direction for facilitating expansion and skirmishing, which is never going to be a late-game centerpiece. Incidentally, the CORE Storm and Thud could hold their own late-game. The reason why comp TA players never really liked the transition to SupCom (and why stuff like Balanced TA remained popular) is because SupCom went much harder in terms of T2>T1, whereas TA T2 units tended to be more specialized. BAR takes it further - as far as I can tell in the tournaments with "pro" players 80-90% of armies are comprised of T1 units... T2 tech happens relatively later in the game and generally creates specialized units that help strengthen or push a certain scenario (ie. hold a siege, break a siege, attempt a hail-mary bombardment, etc.). Edit: To add to that CORE Kbot thing, T2 Kbots were:
Not one of these are going to form the basis of your army late-game. Hence, the Storm and Thuds continuing to comprise the bulk of your army. You forgot to mention that quite often cheap T1 units in BAR are being produced en-masse late game for several purposes: 1. creating a mobile patrol wall around your territory to warn you of potential flanking maneuvers 2. field saturation during bigger pushes so that enemy units that have powerful single-target shots need to be manually aimed as to not waste their shots against all the chaff 3. probing attacks to test enemy defenses, clear minefields etc. (I mean, if you manage to sneak even a few T1 units behind enemy lines and into their base they can wreck total havoc on their economy, especially in the later stages when you have massive chain-reactions when your eco gets blown up) From the games I've seen so far it's not uncommon for players to mass spam Ticks and such for those purposes. It even says so right on the main website: The Tick is a fast scout bot that's cheap to build and perfect for gathering intel on your enemy. Use a few of them to take out your opponents metal extractors at the start of a game. It's far from ideal for fighting other non-scout combat units, however, in large numbers a Tick swarm is an effective way to draw enemy fire or even take out unprotected expansions. | ||
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3804 Posts
in Supcom for example, if you had scouted a building but then lose radar coverage (or it's jammed), you lose the ability to target units but your units know where the buildings are. in B.A.R, unless I'm just missing something very obvious (and this is totally possible after only playing like 5 games) your units just completely forget what buildings are or where they are. It's kind of just a weird (and annoying) design choice. Also units don't have a 'target ground' function? Again I'm probably missing something but I was looking for it on my Navy units but I just couldn't find one. | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2572 Posts
On April 24 2023 10:54 ShloobeR wrote: Also units don't have a 'target ground' function? Again I'm probably missing something but I was looking for it on my Navy units but I just couldn't find one. They do, it's just called "attack." Hit "A" and click anywhere, and your units will fire at that spot. | ||
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3804 Posts
On April 24 2023 13:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote: They do, it's just called "attack." Hit "A" and click anywhere, and your units will fire at that spot. oh god really? I swear I tried that multiple times  I'll try again I guess | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17174 Posts
The devs are talking about some upgrades they're making and polishing the game. They're also planning to release it on Steam but there's still work to be done before that and it's quite an undertaking. Considering the state some games release on Steam I think it's very admirable for them to pursue such high quality goals as a team of basically just volunteers. https://www.beyondallreason.info/development/steam-release | ||
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PunkSkeleton2
Poland2 Posts
The unique things about BAR and other TA style games are macro, interface (this one is mostly BAR specific), moving shot and reclaim/ressurect. The resource flow is continuous not discrete. There are no workers bringing minerals, you build metal (mainly mines) and energy generating structures and they generate X amount of resource per second. When you build something you don't pay in advance - you pay continuously as the structure is being built. How fast you build depends on assigned build power (which is in fact 3rd resource which you must expand). The macro in BAR is not easy, maybe there's less clicking but certainly more thinking as you try to balance the 3 resources in the most efficient way. Add the fact that wind is usually the most cost efficient (depends on map) but changes during the game and you really have a puzzle to solve. The interface... Let me say that after I tried BAR I immediately considered StormGate to be obsolete. Uncapped camera movement, rotation and zoom-out (yes, you can zoom out so you see the entire maps and icons instead of units that are too small to see). Drag-move command that auto-split destination of your units. Grid build. Auto-repeat on factories. Working and easily assignable auto-grouping... Moving shot makes it that if some units sneak past defenses the damage can be catastrophic. It is impossible to catch them if your units are not faster. They don't have to stop when they destroy your mines, windmills etc. Units also leave wrecks when destroyed (unless there is a significant overkill but that does happen very often) which can be reclaimed using any construction units granting some metal back (I think it's 75% but I might be wrong) or resurrected with T1 reclaim/ressurection bots. Resurrection costs only 50% energy and 0 metal and does what the name suggests - you get the unit. Reclaim bots are not cheap and resurrection is rather slow but it is still just broken in my opinion. Fights over wreck fields often decide games. | ||
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