On August 20 2025 14:53 RogerChillingworth wrote: Anyway, discussion about this game honestly just goes around in circles. I think a “RTS General Discussion” thread would be a lot more useful at this point. There are a lot of soulful efforts being made by people and will continue to be made and this Stormgate/Frostigant Megathread shouldn't eat all those blurbs and discussions. And then the 4 people who still want to talk about SG specifically can do that here. Just a thought!
Heeding the suggestion by RogerChillingworth, I hereby open a thread to discuss all kinds of RTS games. Please feel free to start a discussion with anything that interests you RTS-wise.
To start things of from my side: Should we get excited about another inevitably disastrous entry into the DoW series?
Nice!! I can't say I've been following Dawn of War or that I am a Warhammer fan (one of the only people in the world it seems), but that trailer looks pretty darn cool. I'll check out some gameplay.
Doesn't seem "Blizz style" but then again I haven't played it. It looks like a load of fun and like a good Sunday game. A couple important things to note
Currently planning a full product on release, not an EA launch
A campaign for every faction (3 factions)
The devs like Dawn of War, Brood War, and obviously C&C
A very recent dev interview provided some long-awaited info that I thought was nice:
The current resource system looks potentially weird and complex but the devs say a lot of it is automated (I personally prefer a simpler system that ISN'T automated, but who knows?)
I have a lot of thoughts about RTS and what would be a cool direction to go in, but I'll save that for a bit later.
I don't think making a worse StarCraft is really the play, and I'm generally uninterested in "attack-move" RTS. There's a lot of potential innovation in how to handle economy, combat, base building, and so on. And of course story, world and campaign could be a lot cooler and more ambitious than it is now.
It's a bit sad how much of a laborious, technical undertaking RTS really is, especially if you are doing it legit and having humans do the work. But yeah, to start a new 5-10 year project in this day and age seems potentially very unpredictable and stressful.
On August 20 2025 23:00 RogerChillingworth wrote: Nice!! I can't say I've been following Dawn of War or that I am a Warhammer fan (one of the only people in the world it seems), but that trailer looks pretty darn cool. I'll check out some gameplay.
Doesn't seem "Blizz style" but then again I haven't played it. It looks like a load of fun and like a good Sunday game. A couple important things to note
Currently planning a full product on release, not an EA launch
A campaign for every faction (3 factions)
The devs like Dawn of War, Brood War, and obviously C&C
A very recent dev interview provided some long-awaited info that I thought was nice:
The current resource system looks potentially weird and complex but the devs say a lot of it is automated (I personally prefer a simpler system that ISN'T automated, but who knows?)
Overall the units and vibe seem fun.
I helped found and run a group that has done (so far) like 15 actual LANs, with on-house casters (often yours truly) for SC2. Originally very locally, but we got our tentacles into many across the nation over time.
I vividly remember like a decent amount of us on Discord, anticipating the Stormgate reveal. We’d started out as an SC group, we have aspirations to branch out to be a more general RTS one, and Stormgate was meant to be the new game we might migrate to.
‘Lads, I know we were here for Stormgate, but was it just me or did D.O.R.F look fucking awesome?’
One of those gut things, one’s gut can often be wrong. I kinda felt Stormgate was in trouble even then, with a sorta meh cinematic trailer and nothing actually cool to show. If what was effectively a Stormgate specific viewing party had people leaving it more intrigued for DORF, not great.
IIRC this is from the same show, can’t remember 100%. Is D.O.R.F balanced or anything? I’ve got zero idea
Is it cool? Fuck yeah, we got a bit of stock rock music to listen to, there’s shit blowing up everywhere, designs are pretty poppy and distinctive.
In like a 50 second snapshot we’ve got satisfying looking regular RTS combat, we’ve parachutists popping in. Whether it’s an actual unit or merely a projectile, we’ve some giant fucking wrecking ball thing rolling around. We’ve got what looks like some kind of alien demigod floating around and fucking shit up. We’ve got some kind of apocalyptic nuke cannon that wipes out a screen.
Does it play well? I’ve zero idea. But it certainly at least feels fucking cool, that’s a set of toys I’d quite like to get my hands on.
It also has a name so stupid sounding that it ends up being a beneficial asset.
Pretty sad about the rts genre in general at this point.
Honestly City Builders are kinda the bigger genre now that is the most similar with base building like any dev probably just goes there cause it is far more profitable (like even random indie city builders like manor lords sold like pancakes). I think there are just not enough rts players anymore why it is alot less good to
Like another factor is how FPS and MOBA are just far more attractive options for players nowadays. Like team games just are alot more fun in general (I hate to admit it but I basically play more team games for multiplayer than rts tbqh)
But there are some curious titles like The Scouring which seems to be pretty close to what Warcraft 3 is.
But other than that the newer titles dont feel like they match what Broodwar or AoE2 has to offer like for competitive gameplay.
I thought this War 2 + They Are Billions RTS was pretty interesting for technical reasons. It's quite derivative in creative terms, but another impressive example of how even small indie teams can make high unit count RTS that aren't janky these days.
On August 20 2025 23:11 RogerChillingworth wrote: I have a lot of thoughts about RTS and what would be a cool direction to go in, but I'll save that for a bit later.
I don't think making a worse StarCraft is really the play, and I'm generally uninterested in "attack-move" RTS. There's a lot of potential innovation in how to handle economy, combat, base building, and so on. And of course story, world and campaign could be a lot cooler and more ambitious than it is now.
It's a bit sad how much of a laborious, technical undertaking RTS really is, especially if you are doing it legit and having humans do the work. But yeah, to start a new 5-10 year project in this day and age seems potentially very unpredictable and stressful.
I wanna hear it now dagnabbit!
For the forthcoming post I’m not considering technical feasibility, I’m going crazy on what I consider the evolution to be.
It’s a 4X, traditional RTS with a reasonably hefty element of resource management and base building, with great micro potential, at the same time
And its scope should be gigantic, relative to a traditional RTS.
If we split those areas crudely into 3, you should be able to jump around them at will. The AI should be able to do a competent, but worse job than a regular average human in your absence. Ideally you’re sharing the load with your buddies.
You should be the complete total war general. Able to do big picture logistics, but also adept at small scale command. How useful you are may depend what hat you choose, and when.
You’re on the verge of cracking your opponent, and personally command that potential final battle, a sensible use. Whereas if you spend all your timing focusing on peripheral conflicts, the history books may consider you a military genius but your boys lost.
The stretch goal is to make it an MMORTS in a persistent war zone.
On August 20 2025 14:53 RogerChillingworth wrote: Anyway, discussion about this game honestly just goes around in circles. I think a “RTS General Discussion” thread would be a lot more useful at this point. There are a lot of soulful efforts being made by people and will continue to be made and this Stormgate/Frostigant Megathread shouldn't eat all those blurbs and discussions. And then the 4 people who still want to talk about SG specifically can do that here. Just a thought!
Heeding the suggestion by RogerChillingworth, I hereby open a thread to discuss all kinds of RTS games. Please feel free to start a discussion with anything that interests you RTS-wise.
To start things of from my side: Should we get excited about another inevitably disastrous entry into the DoW series?
I am actually very hyped for DoW IV. I'm not sure why it would be inevitably disastrous - DoW and DoW II were both amazing, it was only DoW 3 that was a massive failure. The thing that gives me hope is that from the trailer it seems very much like they are re-using DoW 3 assets/art style? which was one thing that I think everyone enjoyed. Relic got the art style and atmosphere right, they just completely fucked the gameplay. So if DoW IV can be a return to form gameplay wise and re-use DoW 3 assets it could be an amazing return to form.
I thought this War 2 + They Are Billions RTS was pretty interesting for technical reasons. It's quite derivative in creative terms, but another impressive example of how even small indie teams can make high unit count RTS that aren't janky these days.
Do you really wanna post a Winter video with the title ":The Scouring - The WarCraft 4 We Deserve"? Thats the shit that makes the internet worse
There are like 100 pages of "What RTS should be like" in that Stormgate thread. Dont you think thats enough?
Do you really wanna make an account on a primarily RTS forum and your introductory post being to complain about people discussing RTS games?
Dawn of War 4 already looks better than Dawn of War 3 ever did. Adeptus Mechanicus was certainly a curve ball I did not see coming, even in my wildest dreams. Necrons as 1 of the 4 starting races were certainly a surprise, but a welcome one!
The melee fighting seems really well done, and the models top notch. Sync Kills are now... well, not only for kills but in general, for combat. On the other hand the ranged units look... out of place. They just stand there, shooting. Completely oblivious to the carnage around them. They don't care they're getting shot at, don't try to duck bullets or dodge big hits, I don't think they even have animations to show off glancing hits, grazes or rounds bouncing off their armor? They look like they came straight off tabletop...
Base building seems to be back, but not builders/workers (at least as far as I've seen?) Shit just drops from the sky and auto-builds. Maybe for the better, time will tell.
Larger maps, in the style of Dawn of War 1 instead of Dawn of War 2, and a lesser focus on Commanders/Heroes. Dawn of War 3 tried to make Commanders into MOBA-tier like entities and failed miserably.
Unit get promotions now, in the style of Total War (1->3 bronze chevrons to 1->3 silver chevrons to the ultimate 1->3 gold chevrons) and I honestly like that a lot. I feel like the player should be incentivized to save their Space Marines or Dreadnaughts or Terminators, instead of throwing them away like disposable zerglings or marines.
And I think most important of all? Relic has nothing to do with this game (as far as I know) which will be a breath of fresh air for the franchise after it being fumbled by Relic for so long. Relic has been leaking talent over the years and I honestly doubt they have it in them to make a good RTS anymore. Even Company of Heroes 3 was mid as hell and a lot of people went back to Company of Heroes 2.
Good Luck to King Art/Deep Silver.
edit: Just to say - I am cautiously optimistic about this.
On August 20 2025 14:53 RogerChillingworth wrote: Anyway, discussion about this game honestly just goes around in circles. I think a “RTS General Discussion” thread would be a lot more useful at this point. There are a lot of soulful efforts being made by people and will continue to be made and this Stormgate/Frostigant Megathread shouldn't eat all those blurbs and discussions. And then the 4 people who still want to talk about SG specifically can do that here. Just a thought!
Heeding the suggestion by RogerChillingworth, I hereby open a thread to discuss all kinds of RTS games. Please feel free to start a discussion with anything that interests you RTS-wise.
To start things of from my side: Should we get excited about another inevitably disastrous entry into the DoW series?
I am actually very hyped for DoW IV. I'm not sure why it would be inevitably disastrous - DoW and DoW II were both amazing, it was only DoW 3 that was a massive failure. The thing that gives me hope is that from the trailer it seems very much like they are re-using DoW 3 assets/art style? which was one thing that I think everyone enjoyed. Relic got the art style and atmosphere right, they just completely fucked the gameplay. So if DoW IV can be a return to form gameplay wise and re-use DoW 3 assets it could be an amazing return to form.
DoW2 was a disaster in my eyes. Incredibly unfun 1v1. No base building and basically just rally units from your base. The campaign was kinda cool and had coop, which is a big plus in my book, but still worse than DoW.
I don't know, I just feel like the chances of DoW IV being good are slim based on what I liked about DoW. If they return base building and actually work on how stupid and janky the units feel, the game might actually be good.
On August 20 2025 14:53 RogerChillingworth wrote: Anyway, discussion about this game honestly just goes around in circles. I think a “RTS General Discussion” thread would be a lot more useful at this point. There are a lot of soulful efforts being made by people and will continue to be made and this Stormgate/Frostigant Megathread shouldn't eat all those blurbs and discussions. And then the 4 people who still want to talk about SG specifically can do that here. Just a thought!
Heeding the suggestion by RogerChillingworth, I hereby open a thread to discuss all kinds of RTS games. Please feel free to start a discussion with anything that interests you RTS-wise.
To start things of from my side: Should we get excited about another inevitably disastrous entry into the DoW series?
I am actually very hyped for DoW IV. I'm not sure why it would be inevitably disastrous - DoW and DoW II were both amazing, it was only DoW 3 that was a massive failure. The thing that gives me hope is that from the trailer it seems very much like they are re-using DoW 3 assets/art style? which was one thing that I think everyone enjoyed. Relic got the art style and atmosphere right, they just completely fucked the gameplay. So if DoW IV can be a return to form gameplay wise and re-use DoW 3 assets it could be an amazing return to form.
DoW2 was a disaster in my eyes. Incredibly unfun 1v1. No base building and basically just rally units from your base. The campaign was kinda cool and had coop, which is a big plus in my book, but still worse than DoW.
I don't know, I just feel like the chances of DoW IV being good are slim based on what I liked about DoW. If they return base building and actually work on how stupid and janky the units feel, the game might actually be good.
Dawn of War 2 was very divisive. On one hand - it was a terrible game if you considered it as a successor to Dawn of War 1. They lowered the scale of engagement, got rid of base building, much smaller unit roster and fewer upgrades per squad.
BUT, if you can look past that - and NOT look at it as a successor to Dawn of War 1 and instead look at it as a Company of Heroes-like, smaller scale tactical RTS that just happened to be set in the Warhammer 40K universe (and for some odd reason shares the name with the GOATed and amazing Dawn of War 1), it was a fine, fun game that can stand on its own merits. Think of it as Mechanicus or Space Hulk Tactics or Battlefleet Gothic: Armada or even ChaosGate: DemonHunters, i.e a rip-off of already existing game formula just with a Warhammer 40K paint job on top of it, and you have Dawn of War 2. It's basically Company of Heroes in space with the licensing of Warhammer 40K franchise visuals...
Now they should have NEVER used the name "Dawn of War 2" for it, and I think history (and people) would be a lot more forgiving towards that game's existence.
Haha I was actually lying in bed trying to go to sleep but was thinking about this so I'll just write it out quickly and maybe the Gods will let me sleep.
In terms of being analytical about RTS, I think it's super useful to point out but also deconstruct what you really like or dislike about a game. I'm always down to learn what people find fun and specifically why, if they can or care to go there.
Like I could talk forever about why Heroes of the Storm is a masterpiece—not a RTS, but still—and what makes that game so fun. I could talk about each hero. I don't like every hero, but someone does. And I could especially deconstruct why the heroes I love are very fun, and talk about mouth feel. I think mouth feel is so important in games, but it's a bit of a more abstract concept. For instance, why do some Brood War players play suboptimally, or make seemingly weird intuitive decisions on the fly? It's part of what makes them likable, and also why players have unique identities in that game. There are numerous examples of this in the recent ASL matches. And this mouth feel, or intuitive way of playing, is very much linked to what makes a game fun to play. It's tied to to how a unit or hero moves, its animations, its raw numbers, its overall place in the game, and a litany of other things. The thing is, when I look at a lot of modern RTS, this concept seems lost on them. It's why people like older games; because the edges are harder and there is better mouth feel for what you're doing inside the game.
The reason I'm being super nerdy about this is that I really want a great RTS—or some genre hybrid—to be made that all the communities actually want to get behind. And if that doesn't work, at least let it be a magnificent game. But the core shit is just not understood by the people making these games. You can paint some shapes on a billboard but that doesn't make it a house. StarCraft 2, under its great campaign and epic vibes, almost ruined itself by throwing away a large portion of its potential mouth feel in favor of a much cleaner and more linear style. The texture is still there but in much smaller quantities than previous Blizzard RTS. And the real problem comes when the reverence for StarCraft 2 spills into modern dev and these studios continually try to copy the weaker mouth feel of this game to exceptionally poor results. It is simply because it does not have the potential to be as fun as a more textured game where more is possible in the moment; where instead of zerglings on 1 hotkey running in and auto-surrounding your zealots, there is 15 seconds of cat-and-mouse and intense micro to min-max the damage every unit is doing. Because the unit behaviors in the latter example were made to be skillfully handled, not automated away. This is the game. Despite people's aversion to difficulty, this is the kind of shit that makes a RTS really good and endure the decades. Warcraft III, though not as mechanical as Brood War, pays just as much attention to mouth feel. Without it, your game is flat and linear to play and exceedingly boring to watch. And we will continue to see this in RTS if they don't make challenging, mechanical, textured games designed for people who want just that.
Anyway, that's the only wall of text I'll post in here. Any future ideas I have I'll try to communicate more visually and in a much less theoretical way.
On August 20 2025 23:11 RogerChillingworth wrote: I have a lot of thoughts about RTS and what would be a cool direction to go in, but I'll save that for a bit later.
I don't think making a worse StarCraft is really the play, and I'm generally uninterested in "attack-move" RTS. There's a lot of potential innovation in how to handle economy, combat, base building, and so on. And of course story, world and campaign could be a lot cooler and more ambitious than it is now.
It's a bit sad how much of a laborious, technical undertaking RTS really is, especially if you are doing it legit and having humans do the work. But yeah, to start a new 5-10 year project in this day and age seems potentially very unpredictable and stressful.
I wanna hear it now dagnabbit!
For the forthcoming post I’m not considering technical feasibility, I’m going crazy on what I consider the evolution to be.
It’s a 4X, traditional RTS with a reasonably hefty element of resource management and base building, with great micro potential, at the same time
And its scope should be gigantic, relative to a traditional RTS.
If we split those areas crudely into 3, you should be able to jump around them at will. The AI should be able to do a competent, but worse job than a regular average human in your absence. Ideally you’re sharing the load with your buddies.
You should be the complete total war general. Able to do big picture logistics, but also adept at small scale command. How useful you are may depend what hat you choose, and when.
You’re on the verge of cracking your opponent, and personally command that potential final battle, a sensible use. Whereas if you spend all your timing focusing on peripheral conflicts, the history books may consider you a military genius but your boys lost.
The stretch goal is to make it an MMORTS in a persistent war zone.
I'm not sure I completely understand your idea, but it sounds wild nonetheless.
On August 21 2025 00:56 Waxangel wrote: ...The Scouring....
I'm sure it'll sell, but I am indeed kind of surprised at how derivative of Warcraft 2 this is.
On August 21 2025 00:32 goody153 wrote: The newer titles dont feel like they match what Broodwar or AoE2 has to offer like for competitive gameplay.
On August 20 2025 23:00 RogerChillingworth wrote: Nice!! I can't say I've been following Dawn of War or that I am a Warhammer fan (one of the only people in the world it seems), but that trailer looks pretty darn cool. I'll check out some gameplay.
Doesn't seem "Blizz style" but then again I haven't played it. It looks like a load of fun and like a good Sunday game. A couple important things to note
Currently planning a full product on release, not an EA launch
A campaign for every faction (3 factions)
The devs like Dawn of War, Brood War, and obviously C&C
A very recent dev interview provided some long-awaited info that I thought was nice:
The current resource system looks potentially weird and complex but the devs say a lot of it is automated (I personally prefer a simpler system that ISN'T automated, but who knows?)
Overall the units and vibe seem fun.
D.O.R.F. looking super slick, I think they planning to do a Kickstarter. Last time I backed a game was project phoenix which just disappeared, R.I.P. But I am gonna back it for sure, the aesthetic is just awesome and I want to push it to the finish line. I would love more RTS done in this art style.
The scouring is another one that I am enjoying a lot. The mechanics are fairly simple but that's all needed to be fun. Lots of interesting ideas, Dev is active with testing and good MODs.
As for DOW4, I myself liked DOW3 so I am definitely in the minority. But my concern is apparently there's only 3 factions or 4 planned? The rest are probably DLC or paywalled.
On August 21 2025 05:02 Jaysod wrote: Dawn of War IV already looks like a Mobile Game. If it had a budget, they wouldnt release such gameplay footage. Watch it in 2160p and "enjoy" its textures.
What mobile games are you playing? It looks fine for an early build.
Tbh I think RTS has a certain fidelity cap anyway, readability is pretty damn crucial. It’s just the nature of the beast.
As good as SC2 is, they weren’t 15 years ahead of the curve in graphical chops. Hell I even play that gamet with mostly low graphic settings.
Yeah I have been following DORF for a while, you can tell some passion has gone into it.The sprites look great, I think it's on OpenRA engine.
Have always had the opinion RTS never successfully made the transition to 3D.Blurrier graphics and usually far worse performance than the sprite based games.Basically for me 3D adds nothing only takes away.
On August 21 2025 05:02 Jaysod wrote: Dawn of War IV already looks like a Mobile Game. If it had a budget, they wouldnt release such gameplay footage. Watch it in 2160p and "enjoy" its textures.
What mobile games are you playing? It looks fine for an early build.
Tbh I think RTS has a certain fidelity cap anyway, readability is pretty damn crucial. It’s just the nature of the beast.
As good as SC2 is, they weren’t 15 years ahead of the curve in graphical chops. Hell I even play that gamet with mostly low graphic settings.
Readability is definitely a key one.
I think readability are determined by a few things: -What kind of engagement (poking, spreading) -Types of units (ling vs zealots, quantity matter more. Tank naturally draw attention) -Special effects -Unit colour scheme/visual/size
Stormgate brute vs lancer is one that is just horrible to read.
The marine tank push for example have marine pokes with medivac micro, and then the engagement covers the whole screen and you can clearly tell which units are doing what
EPT
