Hot take but I think more RTS need to release without catering to try and make something into an esport. Not everything neesd to be an esport. I think the focus on these recent big RTS games (Stormgate, Battle Aces and what not) and what's ruined them is their inability to do anything but design games that need to be 100% balanced so their can be tournaments and what not. The more you try and tinker with balance the more likely you get in an endless loop of balancing out anything fun or toning everything down far too much which is eventually what killed SC2 by the time HoTS came out for me. When you start overbalancing everything the factions start losing their differences and the game overall just becomes boring.
Tempest Rising as far as I'm aware was made as a fun game first, much like how Broodwar back in the day was and of all the recent RTS games I've played that's been easily the most fun newer RTS game I've played in forever. Tempest Rising for the most part is hyper traditional as well.
RTS games just need to be fun, if they're fun and people like them; like fighting games eventually people will want to take it more seriously and play more. That shouldn't be the goal from the offset. By making something to try and give birth to an esport you're either going to make the game less fun overall or you're putting all your eggs in a basket that for the most part isn't going to work out. You'll end up wasting a load of money trying to get bigger streamers in the RTS field to play your game and for other reasons as well. Most of the big esports games now were all birthed decades ago; or they're basically copies of something that was birthed decades ago (see League being a clone of DOTA1). None of those games were designed to be played competitively, it just happened in the end as they ended up being good games.
On October 26 2025 18:44 Qikz wrote: Hot take but I think more RTS need to release without catering to try and make something into an esport. Not everything neesd to be an esport. I think the focus on these recent big RTS games (Stormgate, Battle Aces and what not) and what's ruined them is their inability to do anything but design games that need to be 100% balanced so their can be tournaments and what not. The more you try and tinker with balance the more likely you get in an endless loop of balancing out anything fun or toning everything down far too much which is eventually what killed SC2 by the time HoTS came out for me. When you start overbalancing everything the factions start losing their differences and the game overall just becomes boring.
Tempest Rising as far as I'm aware was made as a fun game first, much like how Broodwar back in the day was and of all the recent RTS games I've played that's been easily the most fun newer RTS game I've played in forever. Tempest Rising for the most part is hyper traditional as well.
RTS games just need to be fun, if they're fun and people like them; like fighting games eventually people will want to take it more seriously and play more. That shouldn't be the goal from the offset. By making something to try and give birth to an esport you're either going to make the game less fun overall or you're putting all your eggs in a basket that for the most part isn't going to work out. You'll end up wasting a load of money trying to get bigger streamers in the RTS field to play your game and for other reasons as well. Most of the big esports games now were all birthed decades ago; or they're basically copies of something that was birthed decades ago (see League being a clone of DOTA1). None of those games were designed to be played competitively, it just happened in the end as they ended up being good games.
Brood War was balanced by being imbalanced. Dark Swarm is almost unbeatable, but irradiate is such a bullshit spell that it can kill a lurker in one shot
It creates a situation where everything can feel strong as hell, on both sides of the matchup. Then you discover a way to beat it and crush, until you meet a more skilled guy who feels imba as hell with his counter strategy. Like 973, I can often get way ahead with it vs. my MMR opponents, then I tried vs. Dewalt and he barely made any cannons and I still couldn't quite kill him. Then he plays vs. Koreans that kill him with it because they are even more precise with their timings and micro.
It's like an endless spiral staircase where you re-discover how imbalanced a strategy is and then meet even more skilled opponents who can counter it even better.
On October 26 2025 18:44 Qikz wrote: RTS games just need to be fun, if they're fun and people like them; like fighting games eventually people will want to take it more seriously and play more. That shouldn't be the goal from the offset. By making something to try and give birth to an esport you're either going to make the game less fun overall or you're putting all your eggs in a basket that for the most part isn't going to work out. You'll end up wasting a load of money trying to get bigger streamers in the RTS field to play your game and for other reasons as well. Most of the big esports games now were all birthed decades ago; or they're basically copies of something that was birthed decades ago (see League being a clone of DOTA1). None of those games were designed to be played competitively, it just happened in the end as they ended up being good games.
I think you need to make a game that is great fun and then let the community modify the rules around the game to turn it into a esport if they so choose. Many games made in the 90s have been turned into esports and continue to have a competitive scene around them to this day.
It's true that people have forgotten the most important ingredient. I think the conventional thinking is that RTS has to be huge, and so the production of the genre is gatekept by industry vets with the pedigree to get investment cash, and those people seem to make games that are less fun than the ones people with no experience are making. The way I look at it, a RTS only needs a few things: to be top-down, with an economy aspect and multiple units and, as Qikz puts it, to actually be fun. Everything else is fair game, including ideas that can be tackled by much smaller teams. What you choose to put in or leave out of your game might determine its success but there's no wrong way, and we've seen virtually no real experimentation. Trust me, my dudes, I alone have sketched out a number of concepts people haven't touched yet. Pathways are infinite. We have seen such a small fraction of the potential of RTS, and MOBA too. Some shit will always be carried over from StarCraft and Warcraft, and rightfully so. But just enough to hold the thing together and remind people of what they're playing and what they loved about their childhood. But you backfill that shit with innovations that make the genre more fun to play and give it a much needed coat of paint. The issue, as we've seen, for any number of reasons, is modern efforts not carrying over the correct stuff, or leaving out the good stuff altogether, but also not innovating in ways that make the genre more interesting or, crucially, more fun to play. People are iterating on the hotdog without realizing it. It's like they don't know about all the delicious cuisine that rightfully makes their dick sandwich look like a shitty snack.
On October 26 2025 21:57 RogerChillingworth wrote: The way I look at it, a RTS only needs a few things:
Just to add that I do think a great RTS needs to build its own unique software that makes the special things in the game possible and stand apart. This is just my opinion and I won't declare that not having it means your game sucks. However, I think it's a pretty necessary component to making something special. That said, while it might be hard to find someone capable and willing to do that on a smaller budget, or no budget, it still doesn't require a huge team imo. Maybe brass nuggets and yardstick sauseej tho.
On October 26 2025 16:46 RogerChillingworth wrote: RTS could use some modifications, not only because people's tastes have generally slid more in the direction of MOBA but also because it could just use some phat rims man. I don't see the point in building a hyper-traditional RTS in 2025, but what you change is the key that I think a lot of people will get wrong, and have gotten wrong recently. That isn't to say you can't have units that resemble dragoons or tanks or shuttles or whatever, but following the old script to a T where we send our dudes to mine minerals and ascend a linear tech tree will amassing an army of dudes that shoot pellets is probably not it. We have the best versions of those games and unless we want to remake them you have to start thinking outside the box without breaking it. Certainly, to say the strategy audience isn't there or people don't care about the genre anymore is a bad take.
RTS had every kind of modification possible. Its all been done in the past. The only modification that worked out was DotA, everything else fizzled away. And im not talking about Mods itself. Developer tried all kind of variations of gameplay
That's not true at all. You have your auto battler, your auto chess, your tower defenses and a whole lot of other stuff who took a part of classical RTS and made a game out of it.
Anyone played the new campaign in stronghold definitive edition?
Already have HD and considering picking it up in Xmas sale but some of the steam reviews say it's a bit rushed, amateurish map design etc.The graphics are a pretty modest improvement for me as in the HD ones are nice enough.
On October 26 2025 18:44 Qikz wrote: Hot take but I think more RTS need to release without catering to try and make something into an esport. Not everything neesd to be an esport. I think the focus on these recent big RTS games (Stormgate, Battle Aces and what not) and what's ruined them is their inability to do anything but design games that need to be 100% balanced so their can be tournaments and what not. The more you try and tinker with balance the more likely you get in an endless loop of balancing out anything fun or toning everything down far too much which is eventually what killed SC2 by the time HoTS came out for me. When you start overbalancing everything the factions start losing their differences and the game overall just becomes boring.
Tempest Rising as far as I'm aware was made as a fun game first, much like how Broodwar back in the day was and of all the recent RTS games I've played that's been easily the most fun newer RTS game I've played in forever. Tempest Rising for the most part is hyper traditional as well.
RTS games just need to be fun, if they're fun and people like them; like fighting games eventually people will want to take it more seriously and play more. That shouldn't be the goal from the offset. By making something to try and give birth to an esport you're either going to make the game less fun overall or you're putting all your eggs in a basket that for the most part isn't going to work out. You'll end up wasting a load of money trying to get bigger streamers in the RTS field to play your game and for other reasons as well. Most of the big esports games now were all birthed decades ago; or they're basically copies of something that was birthed decades ago (see League being a clone of DOTA1). None of those games were designed to be played competitively, it just happened in the end as they ended up being good games.
I think the genre just needs a fresh new take. Sort of what modern DOOM did to the franchise. Potentially mixing it with other genres, doesn't even need to have PvP. Tower defense got a ton of different varieties, same should happen for RTS.
On October 29 2025 02:04 ThunderJunk wrote: Broodwar is the best "classic" rts and it's not even balanced. The best modern rts is Beyond All Reason, and it's not even out of alpha.
i think the best thing to do is let the community balance it for their competitive purposes. a giant publisher of RTS games like Activision ~2010 trying to control every aspect of esports competition would be like the President of the USA picking fights with the mayors of small towns. Or like a human spending an hour of time learning how to better fight an ant.
On October 29 2025 02:04 ThunderJunk wrote: Broodwar is the best "classic" rts and it's not even balanced. The best modern rts is Beyond All Reason, and it's not even out of alpha.
i think the best thing to do is let the community balance it for their competitive purposes. a giant publisher of RTS games like Activision ~2010 trying to control every aspect of esports competition would be like the President of the USA picking fights with the mayors of small towns. Or like a human spending an hour of time learning how to better fight an ant.
If you have one somewhat cohesive community, that broadly agrees on the desirable direction.
Not always the case, and you end up with fragmentation
The biggest eSports scenes are ones where the developer is King as regards balance.
Then below that you’ve some big success stories in terms of a grass roots organisation of tournaments. But to my knowledge they don’t really balance the game, they’ll set certain custom rulesets but they’re not changing the games themselves.
Right, they balance the game with maps and custom rulesets etc.
I am not measuring the competitive events in terms of money. Plenty of great esports experiences occur with abandoned games. If everyone is having a blast I consider the event a success no matter the amount of the prize pool.
There isn’t a one size fits all approach is my point. In a fighting game if some character is super OP, the community can decide to have restrictions or outright ban it for competitions.
On October 31 2025 03:46 WombaT wrote: There isn’t a one size fits all approach is my point. In a fighting game if some character is super OP, the community can decide to have restrictions or outright ban it for competitions.
It's nice to have breakdowns like this but I can't help but to be distracted by the unit behaviors of ZeroSpace itself, as well as SC2. How everything flows like sardines instead of having elbow room will never achieve the look or feel of great RTS for me. Units need a larger footprint. Not only is it much more aesthetically pleasing but it opens up a lot of doors to more interesting gameplay, like blocks and surrounds. It's generally more interesting than f2ing a giant blob of shit. Just my opinion though. But I'm right, sry.
It's nice to have breakdowns like this but I can't help but to be distracted by the unit behaviors of ZeroSpace itself, as well as SC2. How everything flows like sardines instead of having elbow room will never achieve the look or feel of great RTS for me. Units need a larger footprint. Not only is it much more aesthetically pleasing but it opens up a lot of doors to more interesting gameplay, like blocks and surrounds. It's generally more interesting than f2ing a giant blob of shit. Just my opinion though. But I'm right, sry.
Be careful what you wish for. The result will be either that:
-Individual units will be too small to control
or
-You will control much smaller armies.
I guess you are a BW player, but that kind of Army control is not fun for many players, and was frustrating to some even at release.
EPT
