On February 18 2026 06:13 TeamMamba wrote: Watching that byul vs innovation is a constant reminder how far this game as become
No offense but that game really lacked the skills and multitasking that we see right now especially in tvz.
The worker change was definitely the one of few major changes that blizzard got right. Wol and hots games were just painfully slow to watch
When poker went from being a table game to a slot game with limited options, more people started playing "poker" and get addicted to it too. It doesn't make it "right" IMO. Accelerating the game by removing early game options for the sake of short attention spans in this deteriorating world was a drug prescription which doesn't cure for an ailment which plagues the modern gamer.
On February 18 2026 06:13 TeamMamba wrote: The worker change was definitely the one of few major changes that blizzard got right. Wol and hots games were just painfully slow to watch
I will never accept that lessening strategic variety in a strategy game was a good idea.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to say clem would blush at this lvl of multitask. Lotv certainly upped the lvl of mechanical play, especially for protoss. Though both zerg and protoss macro mechanics became child's play.
But it's certainly the harder era, and you should measure this by how much are players actually improving from month tp month. It's impossible to keep up with championships in the way that maru did in an era where everyone is improving so much, that there almost isn't time for sleep. Whereas now I think the level of play is actually dropping.
I loved those round hots maps at this time, specifically terraform.
On February 19 2026 03:22 ejozl wrote: I think it's a bit disingenuous to say clem would blush at this lvl of multitask. Lotv certainly upped the lvl of mechanical play, especially for protoss. Though both zerg and protoss macro mechanics became child's play.
But it's certainly the harder era, and you should measure this by how much are players actually improving from month tp month. It's impossible to keep up with championships in the way that maru did in an era where everyone is improving so much, that there almost isn't time for sleep. Whereas now I think the level of play is actually dropping.
I loved those round hots maps at this time, specifically terraform.
Wrote all that and didn't read the paragraph youre complaining about. He said relative speed to his competitors, even if Clem is faster overall if he's only 25% faster than his peers and maru was 40% faster than his peers maru's relative speed is faster.
On February 19 2026 03:22 ejozl wrote: I think it's a bit disingenuous to say clem would blush at this lvl of multitask. Lotv certainly upped the lvl of mechanical play, especially for protoss. Though both zerg and protoss macro mechanics became child's play.
But it's certainly the harder era, and you should measure this by how much are players actually improving from month tp month. It's impossible to keep up with championships in the way that maru did in an era where everyone is improving so much, that there almost isn't time for sleep. Whereas now I think the level of play is actually dropping.
I loved those round hots maps at this time, specifically terraform.
Wrote all that and didn't read the paragraph youre complaining about. He said relative speed to his competitors, even if Clem is faster overall if he's only 25% faster than his peers and maru was 40% faster than his peers maru's relative speed is faster.
Personally, I do feel like it's a bit of hyperbole on Miz's end to praise a player/era he really liked. Ironically, "relative" itself is a pretty relative term here. Even if I think Clem is mechanically gapping his peers harder than ByuL in TvZ/ZvT (say, if you compare the #1 player to the #5 player), I could also see some kind of argument for ByuL being relatively better when you consider the deeper pool of players.
On February 19 2026 03:22 ejozl wrote: I think it's a bit disingenuous to say clem would blush at this lvl of multitask. Lotv certainly upped the lvl of mechanical play, especially for protoss. Though both zerg and protoss macro mechanics became child's play.
But it's certainly the harder era, and you should measure this by how much are players actually improving from month tp month. It's impossible to keep up with championships in the way that maru did in an era where everyone is improving so much, that there almost isn't time for sleep. Whereas now I think the level of play is actually dropping.
I loved those round hots maps at this time, specifically terraform.
Wrote all that and didn't read the paragraph youre complaining about. He said relative speed to his competitors, even if Clem is faster overall if he's only 25% faster than his peers and maru was 40% faster than his peers maru's relative speed is faster.
Personally, I do feel like it's a bit of hyperbole on Miz's end to praise a player/era he really liked. Ironically, "relative" itself is a pretty relative term here. Even if I think Clem is mechanically gapping his peers harder than ByuL in TvZ/ZvT if you compare the #1 player to the #5 player, I could also see some kind of argument for ByuL being relatively better when you consider the deeper pool of players.
Counter argument. The pool might be deeper but the top was weaker. Let's not forget everyone in this deep pool we thought was great at the time, Serral gapped. We didn't have serral and maxpax back then.
You can't compare maxpax to someone like polt and think maxpax is more great, that's ridiculous. He's the best danish player we've had, but even then Bunny went and actually won a gfinity in person.
On February 19 2026 03:22 ejozl wrote: I think it's a bit disingenuous to say clem would blush at this lvl of multitask. Lotv certainly upped the lvl of mechanical play, especially for protoss. Though both zerg and protoss macro mechanics became child's play.
But it's certainly the harder era, and you should measure this by how much are players actually improving from month tp month. It's impossible to keep up with championships in the way that maru did in an era where everyone is improving so much, that there almost isn't time for sleep. Whereas now I think the level of play is actually dropping.
I loved those round hots maps at this time, specifically terraform.
Wrote all that and didn't read the paragraph youre complaining about. He said relative speed to his competitors, even if Clem is faster overall if he's only 25% faster than his peers and maru was 40% faster than his peers maru's relative speed is faster.
Personally, I do feel like it's a bit of hyperbole on Miz's end to praise a player/era he really liked. Ironically, "relative" itself is a pretty relative term here. Even if I think Clem is mechanically gapping his peers harder than ByuL in TvZ/ZvT if you compare the #1 player to the #5 player, I could also see some kind of argument for ByuL being relatively better when you consider the deeper pool of players.
Counter argument. The pool might be deeper but the top was weaker. Let's not forget everyone in this deep pool we thought was great at the time, Serral gapped. We didn't have serral and maxpax back then.
Yeah, in terms of absolute skill Serral is the best ever but he also had access to the accumulated knowledge of all pro players before him, so it was 'easier' for him to reach that level compared to the players before him.
On February 19 2026 03:22 ejozl wrote: I think it's a bit disingenuous to say clem would blush at this lvl of multitask. Lotv certainly upped the lvl of mechanical play, especially for protoss. Though both zerg and protoss macro mechanics became child's play.
But it's certainly the harder era, and you should measure this by how much are players actually improving from month tp month. It's impossible to keep up with championships in the way that maru did in an era where everyone is improving so much, that there almost isn't time for sleep. Whereas now I think the level of play is actually dropping.
I loved those round hots maps at this time, specifically terraform.
Wrote all that and didn't read the paragraph youre complaining about. He said relative speed to his competitors, even if Clem is faster overall if he's only 25% faster than his peers and maru was 40% faster than his peers maru's relative speed is faster.
Personally, I do feel like it's a bit of hyperbole on Miz's end to praise a player/era he really liked. Ironically, "relative" itself is a pretty relative term here. Even if I think Clem is mechanically gapping his peers harder than ByuL in TvZ/ZvT if you compare the #1 player to the #5 player, I could also see some kind of argument for ByuL being relatively better when you consider the deeper pool of players.
Counter argument. The pool might be deeper but the top was weaker. Let's not forget everyone in this deep pool we thought was great at the time, Serral gapped. We didn't have serral and maxpax back then.
Not fully disagreeing, but Serral ascendancy happened after the Korean decline (end of proleague and disbandment of korean teams) so its hard to decouple.
On February 19 2026 03:22 ejozl wrote: I think it's a bit disingenuous to say clem would blush at this lvl of multitask. Lotv certainly upped the lvl of mechanical play, especially for protoss. Though both zerg and protoss macro mechanics became child's play.
But it's certainly the harder era, and you should measure this by how much are players actually improving from month tp month. It's impossible to keep up with championships in the way that maru did in an era where everyone is improving so much, that there almost isn't time for sleep. Whereas now I think the level of play is actually dropping.
I loved those round hots maps at this time, specifically terraform.
Wrote all that and didn't read the paragraph youre complaining about. He said relative speed to his competitors, even if Clem is faster overall if he's only 25% faster than his peers and maru was 40% faster than his peers maru's relative speed is faster.
Personally, I do feel like it's a bit of hyperbole on Miz's end to praise a player/era he really liked. Ironically, "relative" itself is a pretty relative term here. Even if I think Clem is mechanically gapping his peers harder than ByuL in TvZ/ZvT if you compare the #1 player to the #5 player, I could also see some kind of argument for ByuL being relatively better when you consider the deeper pool of players.
Counter argument. The pool might be deeper but the top was weaker. Let's not forget everyone in this deep pool we thought was great at the time, Serral gapped. We didn't have serral and maxpax back then.
Everyone we thought was great? Believe it or not there were great players during all eras. This topic has been discussed to death on this forum but yes absolute skill always goes up over time in real sports and esports. The cruyff turn for example was perhaps the pinnacle of skill at the time but these days it is a much more common skill. Or for a sc2 example splitting marines against banelings early on was very good but as marine King and others figured out better and easier ways to do it other pros and later down the line shitters like myself were able to do it.
Relative skill is what we are discussing. Without all the advancements and effort of prior players you don't get the game we have today
On February 19 2026 03:22 ejozl wrote: I think it's a bit disingenuous to say clem would blush at this lvl of multitask. Lotv certainly upped the lvl of mechanical play, especially for protoss. Though both zerg and protoss macro mechanics became child's play.
But it's certainly the harder era, and you should measure this by how much are players actually improving from month tp month. It's impossible to keep up with championships in the way that maru did in an era where everyone is improving so much, that there almost isn't time for sleep. Whereas now I think the level of play is actually dropping.
I loved those round hots maps at this time, specifically terraform.
Wrote all that and didn't read the paragraph youre complaining about. He said relative speed to his competitors, even if Clem is faster overall if he's only 25% faster than his peers and maru was 40% faster than his peers maru's relative speed is faster.
Personally, I do feel like it's a bit of hyperbole on Miz's end to praise a player/era he really liked. Ironically, "relative" itself is a pretty relative term here. Even if I think Clem is mechanically gapping his peers harder than ByuL in TvZ/ZvT if you compare the #1 player to the #5 player, I could also see some kind of argument for ByuL being relatively better when you consider the deeper pool of players.
Counter argument. The pool might be deeper but the top was weaker. Let's not forget everyone in this deep pool we thought was great at the time, Serral gapped. We didn't have serral and maxpax back then.
Everyone we thought was great? Believe it or not there were great players during all eras. This topic has been discussed to death on this forum but yes absolute skill always goes up over time in real sports and esports. The cruyff turn for example was perhaps the pinnacle of skill at the time but these days it is a much more common skill. Or for a sc2 example splitting marines against banelings early on was very good but as marine King and others figured out better and easier ways to do it other pros and later down the line shitters like myself were able to do it.
Relative skill is what we are discussing. Without all the advancements and effort of prior players you don't get the game we have today
I don’t even fully agree that absolute skill always increases over time. To continue with the football analogy: While certain things like tactics and fitness certainly improved with optimization, I still don't see any modern strikers with the same combination of power, speed, technical ability, and explosiveness that brazilian Ronaldo possessed. Another example are freekicks: modern players just don't match the precision of players like Juninho, Beckham, or Ronaldinho.
It's similar in sc2, modern players may have better late-game multitasking and spellcaster control because it's more emphasized in the current version of sc2 and also may have better build optimization (questionable because the game changed so much), but older players were better in other aspects of the game, for example forcefield usage was much better back then because it was crucial at winning games, and players were also better at early game build selection/mind games, because the early games lasted longer and was more important (no quick 3 base every game). Absolute skill doesn’t just rise; it shifts depending on what the game rewards and what players focus on.
EPT
