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!!!UPDATE IN THE BOTTOM OF THE POST AND NEW REPS!!!
Hi everyone,
some of you might know me, even from Brood War days when i used to stream over here.
I'm PredY from Czech republic, high level Terran player, currently on about 3700 pts, but playing mainly custom games.
TLPD
Liquipedia
1. Introduction and Goal of this thread
Last couple of weeks my TvP was terrible and i was losing to every single decent protoss out there. Recently i've had a lot of free time and was able to practise as much as i wanted to, and i focused especially on TvP.
I'd like to provide a little guide and discuss a strategy/build/style that involves early bio composition with transition into mech in mid/late game once on 3 base. This is not a build order guide!
I'm sure this is not something we haven't seen before. I'm sure people here will claim they've been playing like that for months. It's been discussed before but i've never seen a guide or set of replays over here at TL.net.
My inspiration comes from IMMVP vs ST_Squirtle game on Terminus re at GSTL, where i was able to see the build in the motion. I've theorycrafted about it before the game and had it on my mind for some time. Some of the posters might remember that.
2. General gameplan and Openings
As i said, this is not a specific build order. That means you can do any kind of non-allin opening like blue flame hellion drop or cloak banshee or as i prefer, fast expansion (with a reaper, marauders, or completely without gas).
General idea is to get good enough bio production off 2 base, with relatively fast 3rd base. Pressure and harass your opponent to buy time to transition into mech. Once on 3 base, preferebly gold, get 3-4 factories (2-3 tech labs) and start pumping thors (tanks) and hellions. Don't forget to double armory upgrade. Once maxed, start getting mass orbitals to mass mule and sacrifise your SCVs to get as biggest army as possible.
3. Scouting
Scouting, as always, is VERY important. You see collosus, you go vikings. You see HTs, you go ghosts. You see a lot of zealots, you build more hellions. You see Carrier/voidray tech, you get more startports and pump vikings. Only with practise you'll get to know when a where to scan. Don't be afraid to scan though!
4. 2 base mid game bio and pressure
What I aim for in the beggining of each game:
- safe fast expansion with bunkers if needed to hold off any kind of 1 base pressure
- get fast stim and 3rax, then add engineering bay for upgrades, then factory for starport medivac tech
- add 4th rax so you can have big enough bio production for mid game
- have stim/shield/granades/1-1 upgrades and couple of medivacs and be ready to move out
- if you scan and don't see a fast expansion, get 4th rax before factory to hold off any kind of 1base allin play (optional)
That was always my plan when fast expanding. Then i move out to pressure protoss who is taking 3rd base while i'm getting mine, or try to snipe free buildings or drop into mineral line to snipe few probes. Be very careful about your units though. Don't commit unles you are 110% positive you'll win right in that spot, because if you lose your bio army you will probably lose the game, since you're getting your 3rd base up and you're in transition into mech!
5. Transition into mech on 3 base
This is probably the most difficult part. Because you cut your bio production a bit to get factories which you support once you saturate your 3rd base. That means you reinforce your bio army, but not too much. Therefore don't ever commit to a fight and lose your army. Also, usually at this time, protoss will want to push you. That means either stay on 2 base a little longer and hold the push with bunker or you should be able to defend your 3rd with few tanks you have out already.
NEW: Start getting thors off 2 base after medivac tech. They help greatly. You can get +1 armor because that benefit thors the most.
The best technique i found to stall protoss is use a lot of drops, especially killing probes and sniping protoss buildings, and at the same time pressure with your main force. Meantime you build up a decent mech force.
6. Late game maxed armies, mass orbitals and mules.
Once maxed or getting close to max, start building command centers in your main or expansion. You should also grab 4th base very soon as well. Once on 4base you want about 8 Orbitals. Then you take almost all your mineral mining SCVs and sacrifise them, what you want left is about 24 SCVs mining gas on 4 base and about 2-3 SCVs at each expo to mine minerals or build buildings. That means you'll be around 40 SCVs ideally, with 160 pop of army. That is the true reason of the mech being so strong.
7. Unit composition, when to push and harassment.
When you're getting your Orbitals and sacrifising SCVs, that should be the time of your push you should have about 8 factories, 3rax and 1-2 port, with 2-2 uprades preferebly done. This all depends on the scouting though! If you scan carriers you get more startports etc. what i suggest is, ALWAYS get Ghosts, even tho protoss will go HTs most probably in every game. Also on each map, you'll want to take bases slower/faster, depends on the position and lay out.
What happens to your BIO? You'll probably lose a lot of it during your harassment and pressuring while getting your mech army, and most probably you'll lose the rest when you do your first big push or defend a big push of protoss. What to do with the 4rax? Get ghosts, and ocasionally get some marauders and use them to drop and snipe units/buildings, but you don't have to. At this point in the game you should focus on mech.
8. Strenghts and Weakness.
What i like about this build is you're able to put early pressure with bio composition and use marauders to drop and snipe buildings. Also having mass mules to free up SCVs and have big ass mech army with upgrades is pretty scary. Always double armory upgrade!
Weak point of this is mainly the period of transition into mech. A big 2base push with a lot of collosi and upgraded gateway units or storm is very hard to deal with. That's why it's quite important to drop protoss a lot and stall time.
Also remember, you don't have to always transition into mech, you can just keep your production of bio the whole game so you're not being predictable.
9. Replays
It's very hard to provide an exact guide since the build is very dependant on how a game goes, so i just tried to provide the general idea, please watch the reps to see certain scenarios.
Those reps are old, check out the updated ones
+ Show Spoiler +
Please ask questions, try to discuss the replays. Keep balance talk out of here.
Provide ideas for me to try, wanna see a certain scenario? Have a better opening idea? Comment in the thread and i'll try it with my practise partners. I'll try to keep the thread updated with new ideas and replays.
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UPDATE
finally, i got to play some games and i got 5 new replays
i followed some of the suggestions from the thread and did following:
3 rax (intead of 4rax of which i talk in the guide!) with thors (and +1) after medivac tech and i LOVE it
Thors are so freaking badasses and i recommend everyone 3rax thors into 3rd expo into mech, with mass Thors with other mech support
http://www.mediafire.com/?vuia9sv5d11yyf4
+ Show Spoiler +very good game including carriers, MAS thors rock
http://www.mediafire.com/?q7v96950crd46wb
+ Show Spoiler +very good harassment from inso, pretty actionpacked game
http://www.mediafire.com/?1957f9fpepdz171
+ Show Spoiler +short game but shows how thors are good early on
http://www.mediafire.com/?yt51yyf80zyo3ie
+ Show Spoiler +good harassment from my side, good push from protoss though
http://www.mediafire.com/?0zjm3c45rauugsj
+ Show Spoiler +agressive from protoss, thors save my ass again and very good drop wins me the game
please ask questions and comment the replays!
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I like what i'm seeing
once perfected this will be a strong strat without a doubt 
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Thank you Predy, nice thread
Going to watch them all for sure.
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i do something similar atm. usually of a 2rax expo i try to poke/drop with 4-5rax of bio,get a 3rd and add 2fac tanks (later thors/hellions).
i have problems with strong macro P play tho. (early nexus 2 forge warpgate play , slowly getting 1-2 collosus or tech to ht with a fairly early 3rd). seems like i cant keep up in army power or punish him if i dont go allout bio so if my harrass gets stopped i will be behind on the 3rd timing and usually lose shortly after when i start investing ressources into mech.
i dunno if im just playing too scared early on ( the average 3k P still allins quite alot) or my TvP vs the newer style pvt is just bad ~
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thx for this, gonna watch all replays
want to see TvZ as well =)
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On February 19 2011 21:42 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
i do something similar atm. usually of a 2rax expo i try to poke/drop with 4-5rax of bio,get a 3rd and add 2fac tanks (later thors/hellions).
i have problems with strong macro P play tho. (early nexus 2 forge warpgate play , slowly getting 1-2 collosus or tech to ht with a fairly early 3rd). seems like i cant keep up in army power or punish him if i dont go allout bio so if my harrass gets stopped i will be behind on the 3rd timing and usually lose shortly after when i start investing ressources into mech.
i dunno if im just playing too scared early on ( the average 3k P still allins quite alot) or my TvP vs the newer style pvt is just bad ~
well seems like the exact same situation i described in the weakness part. you should probably aim for faster 3rd, if you know the lay out of protoss base try to distract him and with 8 marauder drop snipe forges/tech buildings which should slow him down.
hope more feedback's coming
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How would you repel dual robo Colossus all-in off 2 bases? I already find that hard with 2 reactored ports pumping out vikings, seems almost impossible with a small number of tanks AND having to proect a vulnerable third.
I know you said drops but multiple times I've had Protosses just roll into my base with 6 Colos and not giving a damn about some dropped bio in their mineral line.
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On February 20 2011 00:15 Mercury- wrote:
How would you repel dual robo Colossus all-in off 2 bases? I already find that hard with 2 reactored ports pumping out vikings, seems almost impossible with a small number of tanks AND having to proect a vulnerable third.
I know you said drops but multiple times I've had Protosses just roll into my base with 6 Colos and not giving a damn about some dropped bio in their mineral line.
i'll try to play against that and then post results/replays
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Great guide PredY :D
What do you think about getting fairly fast blue flame hellions and utilizing those in your build? I have been using them a lot mixed in with bio in TvP and I find that they're very effective, but would that work well in this build?
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On February 20 2011 00:25 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 00:15 Mercury- wrote:
How would you repel dual robo Colossus all-in off 2 bases? I already find that hard with 2 reactored ports pumping out vikings, seems almost impossible with a small number of tanks AND having to proect a vulnerable third.
I know you said drops but multiple times I've had Protosses just roll into my base with 6 Colos and not giving a damn about some dropped bio in their mineral line. i'll try to play against that and then post results/replays
Thanks, that'd be much appreciated.
Do you have any preference between Tanks or Thors? I like Thors a lot better in this matchup personally and since you are utilizing Chosts and got a reactored Starport the only real danger to them should be Carriers. I see you mostly utilizing Tanks though,
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I am extremely interested in this style of play. Based on your post it appears you have really figured out how to do the new SC2 mech properly.
A couple points of note. Firstly you say in your post that the transition period is weak. Secondly, I see no reason to straight up sacrifice scvs. I think both of these problems can be solved at a stroke. It seems the smarter thing to do is make calculated thor/bio pushes and bring large groups of scvs for mass repair on the thors as you start amassing orbital commands. I have found that correctly timed and executed thor pushes with infantry support are FAR more effective than a mixed army of infantry and tanks, hellions, etc. Tanks become effective when you have a lot of them, thors remain effective when your army is largely infantry. And if you take the strike cannon upgrade they can shut down colossi or immortals in small numbers very effectively. I propose switching over from a bio army into a bio/thor army and bring scvs for repairing the thors. You will do significant damage, and possibly win. And even if the push fails, you have reduced the enemy army size, giving you time to build a large ball of tanks.
As for micro during the push, park the scvs in front, the thors in the middle, and the hellions and bio behind, with all the scvs on auto repair. They will act as a buffer and also repair the thors and each other. Zealots will waste their charge on them, and the enemy will not be able to close range effectively to engage as they would like. Also, they will be forced to focus fire thors, which if you are prioritizing mech armor upgrades (double armory means you don't have to pick over weapons) then you want them to focus fire your thors with everything. Their only other option is to shoot scvs, which is fine since it frees up supply for you, and buys time for your thor's big guns to deal more damage. If you keep the ball tight, then if they are in range to shoot scvs then they are in range of your thors.
The one exception to this plan of attack is if they have large numbers of range-upgraded colossi. This tactic will not be able to deal with that in the same way. The best plan is to simply bum rush their position with everything, and try and snag what colossi you can with the thors' cannons, and stim and take down the rest as quickly as possible. It's not pretty, but if you kill a significant number of colossi then you have bought plenty of time to mass up on tanks and vikings and whatever else you please, even if the entire army dies.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2011 00:38 Leaky wrote:
Great guide PredY :D
What do you think about getting fairly fast blue flame hellions and utilizing those in your build? I have been using them a lot mixed in with bio in TvP and I find that they're very effective, but would that work well in this build?
In one of the games on testbug i use a lot of hellions. They are a great unit a i love them, but as bio, you can't allow protoss to kill many of them, so using them with medivac or in not suicidal ways is always good, and with "standart" play you should have at least 3 factories and 1 with reactor so you'll always have couple around. But i feel you have to go for tanks/thors first to secure your bases.
But for example if you open blue flame hellion drop, then in midgame you can switch the factory with a reactor and make couple here and there, because you have the upgrade done already.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2011 00:43 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 00:25 PredY wrote:On February 20 2011 00:15 Mercury- wrote:
How would you repel dual robo Colossus all-in off 2 bases? I already find that hard with 2 reactored ports pumping out vikings, seems almost impossible with a small number of tanks AND having to proect a vulnerable third.
I know you said drops but multiple times I've had Protosses just roll into my base with 6 Colos and not giving a damn about some dropped bio in their mineral line. i'll try to play against that and then post results/replays Thanks, that'd be much appreciated. Do you have any preference between Tanks or Thors? I like Thors a lot better in this matchup personally and since you are utilizing Chosts and got a reactored Starport the only real danger to them should be Carriers. I see you mostly utilizing Tanks though,
I actually like both but i go for tanks first because i feel they are the better defensive unit and also i'm used to building them anyway, plus if you want to get thors first they are so expensive. both are awesome units tho. I still add them later on because they are very good at tanking the damage.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2011 01:01 ledarsi wrote:
I am extremely interested in this style of play. Based on your post it appears you have really figured out how to do the new SC2 mech properly.
A couple points of note. Firstly you say in your post that the transition period is weak. Secondly, I see no reason to straight up sacrifice scvs. I think both of these problems can be solved at a stroke. It seems the smarter thing to do is make calculated thor/bio pushes and bring large groups of scvs for mass repair on the thors as you start amassing orbital commands. I have found that correctly timed and executed thor pushes with infantry support are FAR more effective than a mixed army of infantry and tanks, hellions, etc. Tanks become effective when you have a lot of them, thors remain effective when your army is largely infantry. And if you take the strike cannon upgrade they can shut down colossi or immortals in small numbers very effectively. I propose switching over from a bio army into a bio/thor army and bring scvs for repairing the thors. You will do significant damage, and possibly win. And even if the push fails, you have reduced the enemy army size, giving you time to build a large ball of tanks.
As for micro during the push, park the scvs in front, the thors in the middle, and the hellions and bio behind, with all the scvs on auto repair. They will act as a buffer and also repair the thors and each other. Zealots will waste their charge on them, and the enemy will not be able to close range effectively to engage as they would like. Also, they will be forced to focus fire thors, which if you are prioritizing mech armor upgrades (double armory means you don't have to pick over weapons) then you want them to focus fire your thors with everything. Their only other option is to shoot scvs, which is fine since it frees up supply for you, and buys time for your thor's big guns to deal more damage. If you keep the ball tight, then if they are in range to shoot scvs then they are in range of your thors.
The one exception to this plan of attack is if they have large numbers of range-upgraded colossi. This tactic will not be able to deal with that in the same way. The best plan is to simply bum rush their position with everything, and try and snag what colossi you can with the thors' cannons, and stim and take down the rest as quickly as possible. It's not pretty, but if you kill a significant number of colossi then you have bought plenty of time to mass up on tanks and vikings and whatever else you please, even if the entire army dies.
Well what i aimed for so far was to get one big ass 150~ pop army, that's why i sacrifise the scvs to get more units for the push. Tho the SCVs can be used the way you described as well. As i said before i get tanks first because they seem to be a better defensive unit, but i might be wrong about that actually . I still use thors tho. They are very good at tanking the damage especially if you have 20 tanks sitting behind them and 15 vikings above to kill the collosi.
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I seen that in most of your replays you opt for ibo mech. Problem with that is that I feel that it is so weak against chargelots + collosus/HT. How would you beat a mass of chargelots without 10+ blueflame hellions?
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I also have the most trouble with Mass Chargelots. I was wondering if you thought that limiting your tanks if you scout mass chargelots would solve the problem of my splash decimating my hellions.
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Hi Predy,
Thanks for the general guide, I ve been having alot of trouble in TvP as well.
I watched your game vs Infruna on xel naga <I hold off 2base collosi push from protoss with a few tanks already in the mix>, once you got your third base up you looked great and the build looked awesome. But when you were dropping him (relaly nice drop killing over 10-14 probes, i felt like if he had just walked into your natural he woulda won the game. This is alot of the period I can't deal with, when they get 3 colossi + gateway and a-move into my base i just lose.
So I just want to know if during that game during that drop, you had some way to preventing him from atking you that I didn't know or if you think you could have held that off with what you had and how.
Thanks
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Yes, your endgame move is to have a 150+ pop army of mainly tanks, which I love, it's awesome. It also seems completely compatible with being aggressive during the transition, since you have units which are completely expendable.
What I suggest is that the transition period is weak because you are going directly for tanks, which are relatively inefficient in small numbers. During the transition period it is possible to be very aggressive using the remaining bio, and limited thor production. This places into your scheme at step 5.
Detailed breakdown: + Show Spoiler +
Begin building thors instead of tanks while on two bases, research strike cannon as well as vehicle 1/1. It's pretty natural to get two or three thors, begin building tanks, and then push out as you take your third, and all the upgrades finish right then, bringing scvs. You can even do this a second time with a few more thors, and bring more scvs, assuming the first one went reasonably well. It is quite feasible to start producing thors off of two bases from 1-2 factories, and later transition into mass tank from three bases out of many factories.
Drops are still on the table, and you can also initiate a straight up assault which the protoss will have a hard time stopping at all, and has no method of stopping efficiently. If you have 1/1 or better as well as mass scv repair the thors are guaranteed to outperform their cost, possibly by an extreme amount, and they may even survive to stand in front of the tank line later.
I have found that there is a window where a small group of mass-repaired thors simply cannot be efficiently beaten by any unit the protoss could conceivably have at that stage of the game. With 1/1, and mass repair, even a single thor can take on a preposterously large army of pure gateway units, and you will have two, three, or more. With strike cannon, small numbers of colossi and immortals are no problem (although lots of either are a big problem). Void rays are no threat since you have marines, and he can't possibly have carriers. Also, if he has made carriers, you can simply go kill him. Your swelling tank count will act as a defense and ensure a win if the protoss fails to defend and attempts a base trade.
Another note about the strike cannon upgrade that might make it worthwhile to delay siege mode, and delay tank production. There is a sweet spot with strike cannon to be aware of, that four strike cannons will take down a nexus in 6 seconds. Three thors plus whatever marines you've got along for the ride can probably do the same job. If you didn't need to use any cannons on colossi or immortals, a free nexus kill is very nice. If you push out on two bases with three thors, the protoss will typically have their natural, and their army will have a very hard time stopping you.
Something to be aware of; naked thors do not fare well compared to when they have mass scv repair as well as marine support, and the support assets almost always die during the battle. So if for some reason you wind up with just some thors all alone in enemy territory, fall back. When you have just demolished an enemy army, and pounded their natural nexus to powder, it is very tempting to just walk up the ramp and try to end the game. It is, surprisingly, better to just fall back and make a serious doom push of it later, adding in the surviving thors, than to just throw them away.
The move of attacking with the thors itself, however, is the main advantage. A group of thors with a lot of scvs to repair, and with marines and some marauders behind is going to be very scary for the protoss. It forces the protoss to defend, and more importantly if the protoss tried to take the entire map they will immediately lose. That type of absurd macro play is typically a huge weakness of trying to build up a large tank count while turtling. Also, moving in with thors will likely force the protoss to tip their hand about what they will be using against your tanks, and thors are much stronger against those units than tanks are. If he's fielding immortals, you will fare tolerably against them with thor/marine and know to get ghosts. If he is fielding void rays you should also do alright due to your marine count, and also know to get vikings to deal with the voids and a possible carrier transition later.
Moreover, the fact that you are in his face with thors and marines prevents many of the fancy tech choices you must otherwise scout and react to. Thors do not care about psi storm. You have mass orbital commands to scan if he makes dark templar. There is no real perfect option except carriers, which for all intents and purposes are out of the question, and if you scout you should have plenty of time to get vikings, assuming for some reason you cannot simply kill him for his greedy tech choice.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2011 01:58 Hider wrote:
I seen that in most of your replays you opt for ibo mech. Problem with that is that I feel that it is so weak against chargelots + collosus/HT. How would you beat a mass of chargelots without 10+ blueflame hellions? On February 20 2011 02:06 Mattness wrote:
I also have the most trouble with Mass Chargelots. I was wondering if you thought that limiting your tanks if you scout mass chargelots would solve the problem of my splash decimating my hellions.
well i get at least 1 reactor factory so i always have hellions around, but as i stated, scouting is the key. when you scan and see mainly zealot composition, you go for more hellions instead of tanks. you can build hellions from tech lab factories too you know :D (j/k)
+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2011 02:29 SheerStress wrote:
Hi Predy,
Thanks for the general guide, I ve been having alot of trouble in TvP as well.
I watched your game vs Infruna on xel naga <I hold off 2base collosi push from protoss with a few tanks already in the mix>, once you got your third base up you looked great and the build looked awesome. But when you were dropping him (relaly nice drop killing over 10-14 probes, i felt like if he had just walked into your natural he woulda won the game. This is alot of the period I can't deal with, when they get 3 colossi + gateway and a-move into my base i just lose.
So I just want to know if during that game during that drop, you had some way to preventing him from atking you that I didn't know or if you think you could have held that off with what you had and how.
Thanks
yeah that was one of the older replays, where i did only 3rax and faster tanks. The drop was indeed great. but i'm never worried about his army in the particular moment i think. I can hold it off at my natural. But in general, you're right, it's very tough time when getting 3rd and transitioning. You can hold off most of 2base 1robo collosi push that is not allin with 4rax 1port i think, unless you've been slowed down earlier. You need good concave and the most important thing is, keep making vikings, never have delay in the production, that is very difficult and imporant, since you'll need as many vikings as possible. Use SCVs if needed as well. Try never to get supply blocked and keep the macro up.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2011 02:51 ledarsi wrote:Yes, your endgame move is to have a 150+ pop army of mainly tanks, which I love, it's awesome. It also seems completely compatible with being aggressive during the transition, since you have units which are completely expendable. What I suggest is that the transition period is weak because you are going directly for tanks, which are relatively inefficient in small numbers. During the transition period it is possible to be very aggressive using the remaining bio, and limited thor production. This places into your scheme at step 5. Detailed breakdown: + Show Spoiler +
Begin building thors instead of tanks while on two bases, research strike cannon as well as vehicle 1/1. It's pretty natural to get two or three thors, begin building tanks, and then push out as you take your third, and all the upgrades finish right then, bringing scvs. You can even do this a second time with a few more thors, and bring more scvs, assuming the first one went reasonably well. It is quite feasible to start producing thors off of two bases from 1-2 factories, and later transition into mass tank from three bases out of many factories.
Drops are still on the table, and you can also initiate a straight up assault which the protoss will have a hard time stopping at all, and has no method of stopping efficiently. If you have 1/1 or better as well as mass scv repair the thors are guaranteed to outperform their cost, possibly by an extreme amount, and they may even survive to stand in front of the tank line later.
I have found that there is a window where a small group of mass-repaired thors simply cannot be efficiently beaten by any unit the protoss could conceivably have at that stage of the game. With 1/1, and mass repair, even a single thor can take on a preposterously large army of pure gateway units, and you will have two, three, or more. With strike cannon, small numbers of colossi and immortals are no problem (although lots of either are a big problem). Void rays are no threat since you have marines, and he can't possibly have carriers. Also, if he has made carriers, you can simply go kill him. Your swelling tank count will act as a defense and ensure a win if the protoss fails to defend and attempts a base trade.
Another note about the strike cannon upgrade that might make it worthwhile to delay siege mode, and delay tank production. There is a sweet spot with strike cannon to be aware of, that four strike cannons will take down a nexus in 6 seconds. Three thors plus whatever marines you've got along for the ride can probably do the same job. If you didn't need to use any cannons on colossi or immortals, a free nexus kill is very nice. If you push out on two bases with three thors, the protoss will typically have their natural, and their army will have a very hard time stopping you.
Something to be aware of; naked thors do not fare well compared to when they have mass scv repair as well as marine support, and the support assets almost always die during the battle. So if for some reason you wind up with just some thors all alone in enemy territory, fall back. When you have just demolished an enemy army, and pounded their natural nexus to powder, it is very tempting to just walk up the ramp and try to end the game. It is, surprisingly, better to just fall back and make a serious doom push of it later, adding in the surviving thors, than to just throw them away.
The move of attacking with the thors itself, however, is the main advantage. A group of thors with a lot of scvs to repair, and with marines and some marauders behind is going to be very scary for the protoss. It forces the protoss to defend, and more importantly if the protoss tried to take the entire map they will immediately lose. That type of absurd macro play is typically a huge weakness of trying to build up a large tank count while turtling. Also, moving in with thors will likely force the protoss to tip their hand about what they will be using against your tanks, and thors are much stronger against those units than tanks are. If he's fielding immortals, you will fare tolerably against them with thor/marine and know to get ghosts. If he is fielding void rays you should also do alright due to your marine count, and also know to get vikings to deal with the voids and a possible carrier transition later.
Moreover, the fact that you are in his face with thors and marines prevents many of the fancy tech choices you must otherwise scout and react to. Thors do not care about psi storm. You have mass orbital commands to scan if he makes dark templar. There is no real perfect option except carriers, which for all intents and purposes are out of the question, and if you scout you should have plenty of time to get vikings, assuming for some reason you cannot simply kill him for his greedy tech choice.
very well writen, thanks for that mate. as i said, i like tanks because im trying to be more defensive when taking the 3rd faster. you're very much right about tanks being weak when in small numbers, that's why i have the bio which is on its own very good ball of units.
i like your idea about using thors before tanks to push. i'll definately try that out, i'd call it the aggresive style of transition since you're attacking, while with tanks it's more of a defensive style of transition. what i'm worried about tho is that you want to get MMM and thors with double upgrades off 2 base which doesnt seem i can support it with 4 geysers. Unless you skip vikings which i prefer the most against collosi.
I think more variations like these would make this style much better and less predictable, keep it coming! I'll try to update with new replays of going thors as soon as i get to play some games or even you post some replays!
EDIT: what i'm mainly looking into and trying to figure out, is what is the safest and fastest way to get 3rd base and transition into mech. that is the weakest spot of this build so far. as adviced before, im gonna try to get thors instead of tanks and see how it goes.
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You die every time you transition into mech because
A) you dont have bio production
B) tanks take a while to build up critical mass
Herp derp this is obvious but when youre in the game vs the protoss and he sees your bio army isnt getting any bigger, he can just constantly engage, warp in and re engage and prevent you from ever building up your tank critical mass.
If you want tanks I would suggest starting the factory sooner so that you have the critical mass when you move to take your third, not just starting tank productions as youre taking the third because you have no way to defend it from relentless attacks.
Protoss can afford to do this since you are being very passive while switching tech and he just expands a base or two up on you, so unless you get a fluke harrass and kill 50% of his economy he can afford to just throw food at you and then warp in more until you are left with no bio and no tanks.
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United Arab Emirates245 Posts
I love you predy for guiding your terran brethren with this protoss dilemma.
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On February 20 2011 05:36 QQmonster wrote:
You die every time you transition into mech because
A) you dont have bio production
B) tanks take a while to build up critical mass
Herp derp this is obvious but when youre in the game vs the protoss and he sees your bio army isnt getting any bigger, he can just constantly engage, warp in and re engage and prevent you from ever building up your tank critical mass.
If you want tanks I would suggest starting the factory sooner so that you have the critical mass when you move to take your third, not just starting tank productions as youre taking the third because you have no way to defend it from relentless attacks.
Protoss can afford to do this since you are being very passive while switching tech and he just expands a base or two up on you, so unless you get a fluke harrass and kill 50% of his economy he can afford to just throw food at you and then warp in more until you are left with no bio and no tanks.
how much of the guide did you read? also you didn't watch the reps.
i DO have bio production, i never said don't get tanks on 2 base, in one of the reps i do so. also half of the guide desribes how to be agressive and put pressure. GOD. READ. THE. POST. please
next time i'm not gonna respond to such posts
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EPT
