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What is the point of going to bio at all in the first place? To prevent the fast 3rd from the toss? Im not very fond of bio openings tbh, it seems like all the units are pretty much a waste and you are delaying your mech army and filling supply with units that will turn out to be useless.
Having watched quite a few of Goody's replays and from my own experience i feel like he and some of the other mech players out there go too tank heavy which forces them to turtle for quite a long time. Using more hellions seems like a much better solution to me and essentially playing it like BW terran (except added a few thors to tank shots and for killing phoenix)
Hellions beat immortals quite handily and if a person leaves an opening even once you can completely cripple them with your hellion harass.
I have a bunch of replays here PredY that maybe you should check out to see the viabilty of pure mech openings (i posted a few games of my losses to show how I typically lose when I do lose (not that often,I probably win 90% of my tvp's on ladder in the past 2-3 weeks)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays?filter-hidden-top-player-name=tQSadist&filter-map=
I essentially use the same build all the time but im posting it because it would be nice if we could get a pure mech opening vs toss that was completely solid =) I know phoenix is a counter to hellion harass but even when harass is denied they have had to build phoenix's and hellions are a good unit anyway.
BioMech just seems too weak to me during the transition and you can still die to all the lame stuff bio dies to early-midgame anyway.
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I am very intrigued by this, as a protoss. It seems that once the game gets into late-stage macro, bio balls just cannot compete with a robo/storm army if I can keep T from gaining anything by harass. I have played some interesting games where T stayed bio and added mech as support, but I don't think it was the same strategy as you described here.
I look forward to facing Terrans using these ideas, would be a nice change from hearing constant stims and storms all damn game.
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I hope more comes of this. As a Protoss, I rarely see Mech Terrans/ Mech switches, so when I do I'm not exactly sure what my army is capable of against theirs, I just build stuff that (in theory) should work well, while it works most of the times, the odd timings some Terrans do catch me off guard.
Colossus->Templar switches are pretty ingrained right now, I know when I should and shouldn't, Templar->Carrier not so much
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On February 22 2011 04:44 Sadist wrote:What is the point of going to bio at all in the first place? To prevent the fast 3rd from the toss? Im not very fond of bio openings tbh, it seems like all the units are pretty much a waste and you are delaying your mech army and filling supply with units that will turn out to be useless. Having watched quite a few of Goody's replays and from my own experience i feel like he and some of the other mech players out there go too tank heavy which forces them to turtle for quite a long time. Using more hellions seems like a much better solution to me and essentially playing it like BW terran (except added a few thors to tank shots and for killing phoenix) Hellions beat immortals quite handily and if a person leaves an opening even once you can completely cripple them with your hellion harass. I have a bunch of replays here PredY that maybe you should check out to see the viabilty of pure mech openings (i posted a few games of my losses to show how I typically lose when I do lose (not that often,I probably win 90% of my tvp's on ladder in the past 2-3 weeks) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays?filter-hidden-top-player-name=tQSadist&filter-map=I essentially use the same build all the time but im posting it because it would be nice if we could get a pure mech opening vs toss that was completely solid =) I know phoenix is a counter to hellion harass but even when harass is denied they have had to build phoenix's and hellions are a good unit anyway. BioMech just seems too weak to me during the transition and you can still die to all the lame stuff bio dies to early-midgame anyway.
again, my post wasn't meant to say that it is better than pure mech, or pure bio. i offer it as another option, as i also wrote you shouldn't do it every game to not become predictable. therefore i don't really want to discuss pure mech since it's not connected with my guide
but i like mech, i mech from time to time, and i like the way you do it too (tho the opening could be safer imo since i saw you lost to voidray allin - i mean currently there is NO safe build order since every build has its counters or blind counters, even "my" build is weak to strong 2 base plays), what i personaly don't like about mech is protoss can get a very good map control and with good observer positioning and with watch towers and good building placement almost completely shut down hellions. althought that doesnt completely mean you 100% lose but it hurts you so much. still, there are good maps for pure mech (LT, metal)
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Wow thanks for sharing... 3700 on Masters right? Holy eff haha
Will take a look at these 
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On February 22 2011 05:37 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 04:44 Sadist wrote:What is the point of going to bio at all in the first place? To prevent the fast 3rd from the toss? Im not very fond of bio openings tbh, it seems like all the units are pretty much a waste and you are delaying your mech army and filling supply with units that will turn out to be useless. Having watched quite a few of Goody's replays and from my own experience i feel like he and some of the other mech players out there go too tank heavy which forces them to turtle for quite a long time. Using more hellions seems like a much better solution to me and essentially playing it like BW terran (except added a few thors to tank shots and for killing phoenix) Hellions beat immortals quite handily and if a person leaves an opening even once you can completely cripple them with your hellion harass. I have a bunch of replays here PredY that maybe you should check out to see the viabilty of pure mech openings (i posted a few games of my losses to show how I typically lose when I do lose (not that often,I probably win 90% of my tvp's on ladder in the past 2-3 weeks) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays?filter-hidden-top-player-name=tQSadist&filter-map=I essentially use the same build all the time but im posting it because it would be nice if we could get a pure mech opening vs toss that was completely solid =) I know phoenix is a counter to hellion harass but even when harass is denied they have had to build phoenix's and hellions are a good unit anyway. BioMech just seems too weak to me during the transition and you can still die to all the lame stuff bio dies to early-midgame anyway. again, my post wasn't meant to say that it is better than pure mech, or pure bio. i offer it as another option, as i also wrote you shouldn't do it every game to not become predictable. therefore i don't really want to discuss pure mech since it's not connected with my guide but i like mech, i mech from time to time, and i like the way you do it too (tho the opening could be safer imo since i saw you lost to voidray allin - i mean currently there is NO safe build order since every build has its counters or blind counters, even "my" build is weak to strong 2 base plays), what i personaly don't like about mech is protoss can get a very good map control and with good observer positioning and with watch towers and good building placement almost completely shut down hellions. althought that doesnt completely mean you 100% lose but it hurts you so much. still, there are good maps for pure mech (LT, metal)
Ya I agree with this, I dunno i just feel like BioMech like any mech build is amazing when it gets going, but those strong 2 base builds are pretty common from what ive played against (dunno how it is on europe =) ) and id struggle to hold them even when not transitioning to mech so doing it while transitioning seems like it can get ugly quite often to me ;(
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Hi, great post predy. Just a curious question though, 3 of the replays (at random) i was watching involved you always being ahead in supply count. How is this done? Was this due to just oversaturating your scvs or macro skills simply being better than the opponent was was it the hellions with blue flames that saved the day?
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On February 22 2011 05:51 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 05:37 PredY wrote:On February 22 2011 04:44 Sadist wrote:What is the point of going to bio at all in the first place? To prevent the fast 3rd from the toss? Im not very fond of bio openings tbh, it seems like all the units are pretty much a waste and you are delaying your mech army and filling supply with units that will turn out to be useless. Having watched quite a few of Goody's replays and from my own experience i feel like he and some of the other mech players out there go too tank heavy which forces them to turtle for quite a long time. Using more hellions seems like a much better solution to me and essentially playing it like BW terran (except added a few thors to tank shots and for killing phoenix) Hellions beat immortals quite handily and if a person leaves an opening even once you can completely cripple them with your hellion harass. I have a bunch of replays here PredY that maybe you should check out to see the viabilty of pure mech openings (i posted a few games of my losses to show how I typically lose when I do lose (not that often,I probably win 90% of my tvp's on ladder in the past 2-3 weeks) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays?filter-hidden-top-player-name=tQSadist&filter-map=I essentially use the same build all the time but im posting it because it would be nice if we could get a pure mech opening vs toss that was completely solid =) I know phoenix is a counter to hellion harass but even when harass is denied they have had to build phoenix's and hellions are a good unit anyway. BioMech just seems too weak to me during the transition and you can still die to all the lame stuff bio dies to early-midgame anyway. again, my post wasn't meant to say that it is better than pure mech, or pure bio. i offer it as another option, as i also wrote you shouldn't do it every game to not become predictable. therefore i don't really want to discuss pure mech since it's not connected with my guide but i like mech, i mech from time to time, and i like the way you do it too (tho the opening could be safer imo since i saw you lost to voidray allin - i mean currently there is NO safe build order since every build has its counters or blind counters, even "my" build is weak to strong 2 base plays), what i personaly don't like about mech is protoss can get a very good map control and with good observer positioning and with watch towers and good building placement almost completely shut down hellions. althought that doesnt completely mean you 100% lose but it hurts you so much. still, there are good maps for pure mech (LT, metal) Ya I agree with this, I dunno i just feel like BioMech like any mech build is amazing when it gets going, but those strong 2 base builds are pretty common from what ive played against (dunno how it is on europe =) ) and id struggle to hold them even when not transitioning to mech so doing it while transitioning seems like it can get ugly quite often to me ;(
yeah i'm gonna get my practise partners play strong 2 base plays vs me later this week and i'm gonna try some stuff against that and post replays
+ Show Spoiler +On February 22 2011 06:07 qazqwezxc wrote:
Hi, great post predy. Just a curious question though, 3 of the replays (at random) i was watching involved you always being ahead in supply count. How is this done? Was this due to just oversaturating your scvs or macro skills simply being better than the opponent was was it the hellions with blue flames that saved the day?
i think fast expansion helps a lot vs non-fast expanding protoss given you don't die to some kind of allin, also be careful about your supply depots and generally macro very well
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Thanks for the post Predy. I have a question for you (personally at 3600 masters level):
When I try Mech (then eventually gave up), my main probolem is that I usually win the huge 200/200 clash against the Toss (usually near one of his bases since I tend to attack immediately when I max). However, my surviving army is usually small enough where 15 chargelots warping-in will immediately clean up the survivors before my reinforcements can arrive. They would then win the ensuing tempo game because I cannot reproduce as fast as him and defend all my bases against his more mobile army.
Oh, the Toss army will be predominately mass chargelot + immortal.
What is your big picture game-plan in this situation?
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On February 22 2011 06:25 link0 wrote:
Thanks for the post Predy. I have a question for you (personally at 3600 masters level):
When I try Mech, my main issues is that I usually win the huge 200/200 clash against the Toss (usually near one of his bases since I tend to attack immediately when I max). However, my surviving army is usually small enough where 15 chargelots warping-in will immediately clean up the survivors before my reinforcements can arrive. They would then win the tempo game because I cannot reproduce as fast as him and defend all my bases against his more mobile army.
Oh, the Toss army will be predominately mass chargelot + immortal.
What is your big picture game-plan in this situation?
hi, that's why the mass orbitals and sacking SCVs in late game when maxed plays such a huge role. when maxed you basically start getting about 3 CC on 3base and then 2-3 more when on 4 base. so far what i've done is to just sack SCVs, not use them in my attack, but let protoss kill them (you usually also get a good scouting , just spare SCVs for gas and about 2 at each base to build stuff.
Also start getting more factories and remax again. Then you should have about 150~ pop of units with at least 2/1 or 2/2 upgrades which should do very well against 120~ pop of P units and unless you fuck up your positioning or miss EMPs and stroms screw you up, you shouldn't lose too much and then you should be able to reinforce with hellions (since you'll probably lose almost all of them, as they are tanking a lot of damage). And if you get at least 8-10 factories, i don't think you should have troubles reinforcing. IF you are letf with little amount of units, just fall back, and turtle a bit again and get maxed again while harassing with your hellions
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On February 22 2011 06:34 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 06:25 link0 wrote:
Thanks for the post Predy. I have a question for you (personally at 3600 masters level):
When I try Mech, my main issues is that I usually win the huge 200/200 clash against the Toss (usually near one of his bases since I tend to attack immediately when I max). However, my surviving army is usually small enough where 15 chargelots warping-in will immediately clean up the survivors before my reinforcements can arrive. They would then win the tempo game because I cannot reproduce as fast as him and defend all my bases against his more mobile army.
Oh, the Toss army will be predominately mass chargelot + immortal.
What is your big picture game-plan in this situation? hi, that's why the mass orbitals and sacking SCVs in late game when maxed plays such a huge role. when maxed you basically start getting about 3 CC on 3base and then 2-3 more when on 4 base. so far what i've done is to just sack SCVs, not use them in my attack, but let protoss kill them (you usually also get a good scouting , just spare SCVs for gas and about 2 at each base to build stuff. Also start getting more factories and remax again. Then you should have about 150~ pop of units with at least 2/1 or 2/2 upgrades which should do very well against 120~ pop of P units and unless you fuck up your positioning or miss EMPs and stroms screw you up, you shouldn't lose too much and then you should be able to reinforce with hellions (since you'll probably lose almost all of them, as they are tanking a lot of damage). And if you get at least 8-10 factories, i don't think you should have troubles reinforcing. IF you are letf with little amount of units, just fall back, and turtle a bit again and get maxed again while harassing with your hellions
Thanks, I like this. Will give it a shot.
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I have been trying this out today with some success. It feels really strong late.
Here's a replay of an epic game on Shakuras. Felt like it went on forever.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142690-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau
I could have won this if i actually kept on upgrading and started sacking workers when I had an advantage.
I also wasted a lot of tanks that I should have just backed off with instead. But the game showed me the strength of this tank/hellion/viking combo late game. With ghosts and some infantry added, it gets sick.
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On February 22 2011 09:40 Aldehyde wrote:I have been trying this out today with some success. It feels really strong late. Here's a replay of an epic game on Shakuras. Felt like it went on forever. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142690-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateauI could have won this if i actually kept on upgrading and started sacking workers when I had an advantage. I also wasted a lot of tanks that I should have just backed off with instead. But the game showed me the strength of this tank/hellion/viking combo late game. With ghosts and some infantry added, it gets sick.
good game. yeah you didnt sack any workers and they just took up supply. also you didnt get upgrades for mech
i noticed you did a big push with your bio and mech, which is okay if you have enough infrastructure to rebuild your army fast, but i think its better to use many drops to waste your bio units
also you kept building bio the whole game which i think is not useful at all. just build only mech and ghosts (tho you can get marauders here and there to use for drops since marauders are the best unit to snipe buildings with)
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I really gotta say, them thors with upgrades are reeaaaallllyyyy impressive. I have also been facing the extra 20 zealot warpin to clean up tanks when i go straight into mech, but this bio-first into mech is really nice. Ghosts are really essential for sure, but it seems like they are always laggin it and get to the fight to late for emps. But thats just me. But with enough of those thors, no amount of Templars will do jacksquat. And constant marauder drops can sometimes find tech switches like the techswitch into air. Its pretty easy to stop since u can just switch starports onto the rax that used to have reactors since marauder + ghosts should be the only bio you make. Constant pokes are great to find tech switches too. Hellion run by just tears up mineral lines and they are great vs the almost always high count of speedlots. I think us terrans can hold our own vs that protoss imball now ^^
Heres a replay:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/143132-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
I didn't exactly follow the guide since I wasnt exactly going for this type of build at first, but in the middle of the game, i remembered this thread and decided to just give it a shot. At one point, I had one thor cuz i remember some other post about how thors just tore stuff up and that really saved my arse from the brink of losing the game.
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On February 22 2011 06:25 link0 wrote:
Thanks for the post Predy. I have a question for you (personally at 3600 masters level):
When I try Mech (then eventually gave up), my main probolem is that I usually win the huge 200/200 clash against the Toss (usually near one of his bases since I tend to attack immediately when I max). However, my surviving army is usually small enough where 15 chargelots warping-in will immediately clean up the survivors before my reinforcements can arrive. They would then win the ensuing tempo game because I cannot reproduce as fast as him and defend all my bases against his more mobile army.
Oh, the Toss army will be predominately mass chargelot + immortal.
What is your big picture game-plan in this situation?
When you attack you need to queue pure hellions back to your army, and after you wipe out his army you need to unsiege, retreat and regroup reinforcements and then proceed to win. You're getting over eager and aren't patient enough and thats why the desperate zealot warp ins are so effective.
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Died to this style of play recently and it blew me away. Bio opening, harass into more harass with pulled scvs and a gigantic army of upgraded mech units. My first wonder was how he could afford this much stuff and still take a safe 3rd and later 4th. After watching the replay, I saw how the frequent expanding and mass orbitals at the end feeds the army the keeps the fast expansions safe.
My thoughts:
1. I'm protoss and hate hate hate when I can't zealot/immortal a fast and heavy mech play early and get stonewalled at the end. The bio opening has me going towards colossus/gateway expecting MMM+Vikings all day long and suddenly I'm confronted with enough hellions to make short work of my chargelots with a tank/thor backbone that remains alive after the vikings have dealt with my Colossi. I replace my army tending towards immortal/HT or immortal/airforce. Still, I'm coming at a Terran with a planetary at 4th and heavily upgraded units. Like going at a brick wall.
2. I wish my army could be as big as the Terran's. I wish I had a plan to put enough serious pressure on where Terran is scared to build the extra orbitals that let them sac SCVS for Big Armies. I still don't have the answer for this even after a lot of practice with 3.2k Terrans. Siege tanked expos with the hellions dicking around and Thors hanging with the tanks. Blue-flame hellion drops throughout the midgame and lategame. Don't have an answer for this yet.
3. Scouting/reaction is my job =P Okay this one is a lighthearted complaint. I'm the FE macro player that sends his observer out and sees the Terran's opener and my next structures/units counter it. Now, I see bio and then a bunch of factories and a third with the terran content to sit and upgrade while harassing with drops. But but, ou're supposed to attack into me as I go to attack you ... aww what the hell.
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I tried getting a reactor on the starport, its totally awesome if they get colossus, the Vikings and Tanks are so good together, here are the reps: [url blocked]
I wonder, if they go HT/Chargelot/Immortal, would getting a ghost academy instead of the reactor be good, maybe a 4th rax? Ghosts are expensive in gas- I just did the math, you should be able to afford everything but your factories would be delayed by a lot. Would have to bunker up I think, til' the facts get up.
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I played a game where i scouted the robo bay and when i didnt have vision anymore, the protoss player cancelled it and made a templar archives, and with the couple of vikings i got since i saw the robobay, i was able to scout around and see the tech switch. Scouting is just soooo soooo important with this play.
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Have you tried a Mass Thor composition with fewer tanks, PredY?
In my experience, Thors have a tendency to roll completely through Protoss armies if you have a slight advantage in units or with EMP. Even more so than tanks to some extent. Thor balls are literally steam rollers.
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I've encountered a big problem with my strategy against toss when I'm doing a 1 rax FE. The thing is, is when protoss get 2 gas at the start and they get on the offense, then they just forcefield my ramp preventing me from coming out. how can I prevent this? should I stop the macro to save for bunkers? I feel like if I don't continuously pump units he can just break my defense. how do I stop this? if a replay is needed pls reply
edit: I've tried laddering my units out of my base with medivacs but it's pretty risky as he can just walk into my base and forcefiled me out. I want to figure out a way to prevent this without falling too behind because as I am stuck in my base he's expanding and teching and I'm on 2 orbitals in one base getting mined out. Should I just stick to a 2 rax FE instead?
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EPT
