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United States8477 Posts
When I browse the forums, I see too many people asking, "How do I defend 4 gate?" This thread is meant to be a compilation of all the known builds that have been proven to to do so. In addition, I will be comparing and contrasting them. This "guide" is not as meant to teach you any of these builds. However, it does lay out the facts about these builds and provides the basis of discussion about which of these builds is best for your purpose. For example, you could value a high probe count or high gas count. Or perhaps you just want an easy build to learn. I purposely did not include the IMYounghwa build, becuase it is outdated nor any 1 gate robo builds because I'm not familiar with any of them, they are not very mainstream, and it's hard to compare them with gateway based builds.
The following are the metrics that I use:
Difficulty of execution: Is this build difficult to learn? Do you have to execute perfectly? Out of 10.
Probes at 5:45: Self explanatory
Required number of sentries: You generally want 0 or 1 sentries if possible.
2nd gas timing: 3 probes mine ~112 gas per minute, so you can calculate how much extra gas you will have with different builds via this metric.
Wall?: Indicates if the build requires a wall or not. Walls are generally not preferable in PvP and you want to avoid them if possible.
Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: If it looks like an offensive 4 gate, you
may force your oppenent to play less greedy.
How much does a gas steal hurt?: Early gas build cannot get gas stolen. On the other hand, some builds have difficulty dealing with gas steals. Out of 10.
Excess gas: Compared to a defensive 4 gate that gets gas at 6:00, how much extra gas does this build have? Does not include gas spent on sentries.
3 Stalker Rush
I can't even find a current replay of this build, probably because of the gas steal problem
Difficulty of execution: 5/10
Probes at 5:45: 23-24
Required number of sentries: 1
2nd gas timing: 4:20
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: Yes
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 8/10
Excess gas: 87
2 Gas into 3 stalker rush with 2 sentries
Replay
Difficulty of execution: 5/10
Probes at 5:45: 25
Required number of sentries: 2
2nd gas timing: 3:00
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: No
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 0/10
Excess gas: 136
MC's defensive 3 gate
Replay
Difficulty of execution: 8/10
Probes at 5:45:24-26
Required number of sentries: 1-2
2nd gas timing: 3:50
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: Yes
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 3/10
Excess gas: 30-130
Notes: Probe count depends on which version of the build that you do. An early 3rd pylon allows for more probes but looks less like a 4 gate.
You can get 1 sentry instead of 2 if you can rule out a 4 gate in time.
Outdated too "safe" builds
+ Show Spoiler +Defensive 4 gateI can't find a current replay of this bulid, as it is so rarely used in the pro scene. Difficulty of execution: 3/10 Probes at 5:45: 22 Required number of sentries: 0 2nd gas timing: There's no real standard, but 5:35-6:00 once you know a 4 gate isn't coming Wall?: No Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: Yes How much does a gas steal hurt?: 1/10 Excess gas: 0-47 Geiko's defensive 3 gateReplayDifficulty of execution: 2/10 Probes at 5:45: 22 Required number of sentries: 1 2nd gas timing: 3:50 Wall?: No Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: Depends on which version you use, but generally yes How much does a gas steal hurt?: 3/10 Excess gas: 130 Tod's defensive 3 gateReplayDifficulty of execution: 9/10 Probes at 5:45: 20+ Required number of sentries: 1 2nd gas timing: 3:00 Wall?: Yes, solid wall Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: No How much does a gas steal hurt?: 0/10 Excess gas: 236 Notes: Includes a gas steal
Other openings I haven't included yet:
2 gas into 3 stalker rush build that does not mine from 2nd gas for a while
European (mana/sase) defensive 3 gate
Mana's new defensive 3 gate
Kiwkikaki's 3 stalker rush opening
Day9/Tyler's 2 gate robo opening
*Note: I will include these builds if they either become more mainstream or the individual players that use them continuously use them more often.
Updates in red:
8/25/11: added a new metric: excess gas.
added some clarification notes
1/24/12: Moved some outdated builds around and added a link for 3 stalker rush.
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Good idea for a thread - especially because it gives people an idea of the current meta-game-problem in PvP: Which is how much safety you are willing to give up in order to gain an advantage over a non 4 gating opponent.
The only thing I don't really think is necessary/useful is including the wall-yes/no....you can pretty much include a wall with every build, even one gate robo into 2 more gates. The pros and cons of a wall are imo a different topic that's not really related to the structure of the respective build.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 19 2011 17:35 sleepingdog wrote:
Good idea for a thread - especially because it gives people an idea of the current meta-game-problem in PvP: Which is how much safety you are willing to give up in order to gain an advantage over a non 4 gating opponent.
The only thing I don't really think is necessary/useful is including the wall-yes/no....you can pretty much include a wall with every build, even one gate robo into 2 more gates. The pros and cons of a wall are imo a different topic that's not really related to the structure of the respective build.
Some builds require a wall while others don't. For example, tod's build, mana/sase's build, and mana's new build all require walls for them to work.
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Probes at 5:45: 20+
Having played Tod quite a bit on ladder, I can say he never has more then 20 probes at that moment. Not only does he walls off, but he builds buildings behind his wall, so you can't warpin on the highground.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 19 2011 18:43 AA.spoon wrote:Having played Tod quite a bit on ladder, I can say he never has more then 20 probes at that moment. Not only does he walls off, but he builds buildings behind his wall, so you can't warpin on the highground.
I've seen a replay of sase doing tod's build. He rules out 4 gate early on and gets 24 probes out.
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Great idea for a thread, i've been using Geiko's opening to great success and haven't lost a single PvP in a 6 min+ game. Never even knew about MC's build and know i ought to try it out.
(500p master)
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Im quite sure that Geikos build demands a wall, where only zealots/probes can pass through. (Advice from my Master/GM friend)
Otherwise opponent can get a pylon up inside the base + stalkers can get into your base.
With proper placement you will be 100% safe from 4gate as only 1 stalker can shoot the pylon powering your 2 gateways on your ramp and FF will be deadly.
Also, the wall removes the problem of zealots warping into your main as they will be quite useless.
White-Ra does this, infact, even if you lose 1 gate on your ramp you are still going to win with 2 gates.
Just my 2 cents...
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United States8477 Posts
On August 19 2011 20:28 julius33 wrote:
Im quite sure that Geikos build demands a wall, where only zealots/probes can pass through. (Advice from my Master/GM friend)
Otherwise opponent can get a pylon up inside the base + stalkers can get into your base.
With proper placement you will be 100% safe from 4gate as only 1 stalker can shoot the pylon powering your 2 gateways on your ramp and FF will be deadly.
Also, the wall removes the problem of zealots warping into your main as they will be quite useless.
White-Ra does this, infact, even if you lose 1 gate on your ramp you are still going to win with 2 gates.
Just my 2 cents...
Nope, read his guide/watch the replays in his guide.
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Hurray, a thread to link to to all those asking about PvP openers (was getting tired of having to search for 3 - 4 links every time I answered one of those questions)
Haven't been laddering that much and I have NO idea what ToD's build is. I've been trying to find a safe way to gas steal in PvP but didn't think of walling off as an option to save some minerals.
2 out of 10 yeaaah ^^
On August 19 2011 20:28 julius33 wrote:
Im quite sure that Geikos build demands a wall, where only zealots/probes can pass through. (Advice from my Master/GM friend)
Otherwise opponent can get a pylon up inside the base + stalkers can get into your base.
With proper placement you will be 100% safe from 4gate as only 1 stalker can shoot the pylon powering your 2 gateways on your ramp and FF will be deadly.
Also, the wall removes the problem of zealots warping into your main as they will be quite useless.
White-Ra does this, infact, even if you lose 1 gate on your ramp you are still going to win with 2 gates.
Just my 2 cents...
No my build doesn't require a wall off. You can do one if you want to be EVEN MORE (!!!) safe from 4 gate but it isn't at all mandatory. I don't do it because wall-offs are a huge liability in the mid game vs aggressive blink builds.
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How about 10 gate tech? (Day[9] + Tyler build)
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On August 20 2011 01:14 ShatterZer0 wrote:
How about 10 gate tech? (Day[9] + Tyler build)
On August 19 2011 17:19 4kmonk wrote:
I purposely did not include the IMYounghwa build, becuase it is outdated nor any 1 gate robo builds because I'm not familiar with any of them, they are not very mainstream, and it's hard to compare them with gateway based builds.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
i would be nice if u include
This Build lose to:
This Build is Good against:
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United States8477 Posts
On August 20 2011 01:33 EliteReplay wrote:
i would be nice if u include
This Build lose to:
This Build is Good against:
Lol, for all of them I'd put
This build lose to: nothing particularly
This build is good against: 4 gate
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United States8477 Posts
On August 20 2011 00:56 Geiko wrote:Hurray, a thread to link to to all those asking about PvP openers (was getting tired of having to search for 3 - 4 links every time I answered one of those questions) Haven't been laddering that much and I have NO idea what ToD's build is. I've been trying to find a safe way to gas steal in PvP but didn't think of walling off as an option to save some minerals. 2 out of 10 yeaaah ^^
Do you not agree? It could be higher, but I wanted to get the point across that I think it's easier than any of the other builds, including defensive 4 gate.
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Thanks a ton for all the info! PvP has been my downfall as of late, and it is sometimes hard to see which builds and guides have the TL community's "stamp of approval"
The Easiness rating is especially useful for some of us scrubs trying to work our way up the 4-gate infested ladder.
I tried to find it elsewhere, but couldn't: How do you transition out of a defensive 4-gate after you have held theirs or discovered they were not going 4 gate? Is it best to expand, or to put pressure back without the expansion? I had been stopping four gates this way, but I felt lost after I managed to survive.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
ok where is the Robo build?
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United States8477 Posts
On August 20 2011 01:45 WigginOut wrote:
Thanks a ton for all the info! PvP has been my downfall as of late, and it is sometimes hard to see which builds and guides have the TL community's "stamp of approval"
The Easiness rating is especially useful for some of us scrubs trying to work our way up the 4-gate infested ladder.
I tried to find it elsewhere, but couldn't: How do you transition out of a defensive 4-gate after you have held theirs or discovered they were not going 4 gate? Is it best to expand, or to put pressure back without the expansion? I had been stopping four gates this way, but I felt lost after I managed to survive.
Generally, get a 2nd gas as soon as you can rule out 4 gate and add either a robo or a twilight. Pressure back with the units that you do have. Don't go stargate however, as you won't get pheonix in time to even properly punish a collosi build.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 20 2011 01:48 EliteReplay wrote:
ok where is the Robo build?
??? Did you read my entire post?
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I solved the Gas steal problem with the 3 Stalker opening a long time ago. Let me look for a replay later today... Actually would you like to just create a replay sometime on bnet? PM me if so. If not I'll try to get one.
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On August 20 2011 01:41 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 00:56 Geiko wrote:Hurray, a thread to link to to all those asking about PvP openers (was getting tired of having to search for 3 - 4 links every time I answered one of those questions) Haven't been laddering that much and I have NO idea what ToD's build is. I've been trying to find a safe way to gas steal in PvP but didn't think of walling off as an option to save some minerals. 2 out of 10 yeaaah ^^ Do you not agree? It could be higher, but I wanted to get the point across that I think it's easier than any of the other builds, including defensive 4 gate.
I wholeheartedly agree.That's what I like about my build, I have 5 minute to check out teamliquid at the beginning of every PvP :p
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EPT
