|
United States8476 Posts
When I browse the forums, I see too many people asking, "How do I defend 4 gate?" This thread is meant to be a compilation of all the known builds that have been proven to to do so. In addition, I will be comparing and contrasting them. This "guide" is not as meant to teach you any of these builds. However, it does lay out the facts about these builds and provides the basis of discussion about which of these builds is best for your purpose. For example, you could value a high probe count or high gas count. Or perhaps you just want an easy build to learn. I purposely did not include the IMYounghwa build, becuase it is outdated nor any 1 gate robo builds because I'm not familiar with any of them, they are not very mainstream, and it's hard to compare them with gateway based builds.
The following are the metrics that I use:
Difficulty of execution: Is this build difficult to learn? Do you have to execute perfectly? Out of 10.
Probes at 5:45: Self explanatory
Required number of sentries: You generally want 0 or 1 sentries if possible.
2nd gas timing: 3 probes mine ~112 gas per minute, so you can calculate how much extra gas you will have with different builds via this metric.
Wall?: Indicates if the build requires a wall or not. Walls are generally not preferable in PvP and you want to avoid them if possible.
Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: If it looks like an offensive 4 gate, you
may force your oppenent to play less greedy.
How much does a gas steal hurt?: Early gas build cannot get gas stolen. On the other hand, some builds have difficulty dealing with gas steals. Out of 10.
Excess gas: Compared to a defensive 4 gate that gets gas at 6:00, how much extra gas does this build have? Does not include gas spent on sentries.
3 Stalker Rush
I can't even find a current replay of this build, probably because of the gas steal problem
Difficulty of execution: 5/10
Probes at 5:45: 23-24
Required number of sentries: 1
2nd gas timing: 4:20
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: Yes
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 8/10
Excess gas: 87
2 Gas into 3 stalker rush with 2 sentries
Replay
Difficulty of execution: 5/10
Probes at 5:45: 25
Required number of sentries: 2
2nd gas timing: 3:00
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: No
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 0/10
Excess gas: 136
MC's defensive 3 gate
Replay
Difficulty of execution: 8/10
Probes at 5:45:24-26
Required number of sentries: 1-2
2nd gas timing: 3:50
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: Yes
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 3/10
Excess gas: 30-130
Notes: Probe count depends on which version of the build that you do. An early 3rd pylon allows for more probes but looks less like a 4 gate.
You can get 1 sentry instead of 2 if you can rule out a 4 gate in time.
Outdated too "safe" builds
+ Show Spoiler +Defensive 4 gateI can't find a current replay of this bulid, as it is so rarely used in the pro scene. Difficulty of execution: 3/10 Probes at 5:45: 22 Required number of sentries: 0 2nd gas timing: There's no real standard, but 5:35-6:00 once you know a 4 gate isn't coming Wall?: No Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: Yes How much does a gas steal hurt?: 1/10 Excess gas: 0-47 Geiko's defensive 3 gateReplayDifficulty of execution: 2/10 Probes at 5:45: 22 Required number of sentries: 1 2nd gas timing: 3:50 Wall?: No Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: Depends on which version you use, but generally yes How much does a gas steal hurt?: 3/10 Excess gas: 130 Tod's defensive 3 gateReplayDifficulty of execution: 9/10 Probes at 5:45: 20+ Required number of sentries: 1 2nd gas timing: 3:00 Wall?: Yes, solid wall Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: No How much does a gas steal hurt?: 0/10 Excess gas: 236 Notes: Includes a gas steal
Other openings I haven't included yet:
2 gas into 3 stalker rush build that does not mine from 2nd gas for a while
European (mana/sase) defensive 3 gate
Mana's new defensive 3 gate
Kiwkikaki's 3 stalker rush opening
Day9/Tyler's 2 gate robo opening
*Note: I will include these builds if they either become more mainstream or the individual players that use them continuously use them more often.
Updates in red:
8/25/11: added a new metric: excess gas.
added some clarification notes
1/24/12: Moved some outdated builds around and added a link for 3 stalker rush.
|
Good idea for a thread - especially because it gives people an idea of the current meta-game-problem in PvP: Which is how much safety you are willing to give up in order to gain an advantage over a non 4 gating opponent.
The only thing I don't really think is necessary/useful is including the wall-yes/no....you can pretty much include a wall with every build, even one gate robo into 2 more gates. The pros and cons of a wall are imo a different topic that's not really related to the structure of the respective build.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 19 2011 17:35 sleepingdog wrote:
Good idea for a thread - especially because it gives people an idea of the current meta-game-problem in PvP: Which is how much safety you are willing to give up in order to gain an advantage over a non 4 gating opponent.
The only thing I don't really think is necessary/useful is including the wall-yes/no....you can pretty much include a wall with every build, even one gate robo into 2 more gates. The pros and cons of a wall are imo a different topic that's not really related to the structure of the respective build.
Some builds require a wall while others don't. For example, tod's build, mana/sase's build, and mana's new build all require walls for them to work.
|
Probes at 5:45: 20+
Having played Tod quite a bit on ladder, I can say he never has more then 20 probes at that moment. Not only does he walls off, but he builds buildings behind his wall, so you can't warpin on the highground.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 19 2011 18:43 AA.spoon wrote:Having played Tod quite a bit on ladder, I can say he never has more then 20 probes at that moment. Not only does he walls off, but he builds buildings behind his wall, so you can't warpin on the highground.
I've seen a replay of sase doing tod's build. He rules out 4 gate early on and gets 24 probes out.
|
Great idea for a thread, i've been using Geiko's opening to great success and haven't lost a single PvP in a 6 min+ game. Never even knew about MC's build and know i ought to try it out.
(500p master)
|
Im quite sure that Geikos build demands a wall, where only zealots/probes can pass through. (Advice from my Master/GM friend)
Otherwise opponent can get a pylon up inside the base + stalkers can get into your base.
With proper placement you will be 100% safe from 4gate as only 1 stalker can shoot the pylon powering your 2 gateways on your ramp and FF will be deadly.
Also, the wall removes the problem of zealots warping into your main as they will be quite useless.
White-Ra does this, infact, even if you lose 1 gate on your ramp you are still going to win with 2 gates.
Just my 2 cents...
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 19 2011 20:28 julius33 wrote:
Im quite sure that Geikos build demands a wall, where only zealots/probes can pass through. (Advice from my Master/GM friend)
Otherwise opponent can get a pylon up inside the base + stalkers can get into your base.
With proper placement you will be 100% safe from 4gate as only 1 stalker can shoot the pylon powering your 2 gateways on your ramp and FF will be deadly.
Also, the wall removes the problem of zealots warping into your main as they will be quite useless.
White-Ra does this, infact, even if you lose 1 gate on your ramp you are still going to win with 2 gates.
Just my 2 cents...
Nope, read his guide/watch the replays in his guide.
|
Hurray, a thread to link to to all those asking about PvP openers (was getting tired of having to search for 3 - 4 links every time I answered one of those questions)
Haven't been laddering that much and I have NO idea what ToD's build is. I've been trying to find a safe way to gas steal in PvP but didn't think of walling off as an option to save some minerals.
2 out of 10 yeaaah ^^
On August 19 2011 20:28 julius33 wrote:
Im quite sure that Geikos build demands a wall, where only zealots/probes can pass through. (Advice from my Master/GM friend)
Otherwise opponent can get a pylon up inside the base + stalkers can get into your base.
With proper placement you will be 100% safe from 4gate as only 1 stalker can shoot the pylon powering your 2 gateways on your ramp and FF will be deadly.
Also, the wall removes the problem of zealots warping into your main as they will be quite useless.
White-Ra does this, infact, even if you lose 1 gate on your ramp you are still going to win with 2 gates.
Just my 2 cents...
No my build doesn't require a wall off. You can do one if you want to be EVEN MORE (!!!) safe from 4 gate but it isn't at all mandatory. I don't do it because wall-offs are a huge liability in the mid game vs aggressive blink builds.
|
How about 10 gate tech? (Day[9] + Tyler build)
|
On August 20 2011 01:14 ShatterZer0 wrote:
How about 10 gate tech? (Day[9] + Tyler build)
On August 19 2011 17:19 4kmonk wrote:
I purposely did not include the IMYounghwa build, becuase it is outdated nor any 1 gate robo builds because I'm not familiar with any of them, they are not very mainstream, and it's hard to compare them with gateway based builds.
|
Dominican Republic913 Posts
i would be nice if u include
This Build lose to:
This Build is Good against:
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 01:33 EliteReplay wrote:
i would be nice if u include
This Build lose to:
This Build is Good against:
Lol, for all of them I'd put
This build lose to: nothing particularly
This build is good against: 4 gate
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 00:56 Geiko wrote:Hurray, a thread to link to to all those asking about PvP openers (was getting tired of having to search for 3 - 4 links every time I answered one of those questions) Haven't been laddering that much and I have NO idea what ToD's build is. I've been trying to find a safe way to gas steal in PvP but didn't think of walling off as an option to save some minerals. 2 out of 10 yeaaah ^^
Do you not agree? It could be higher, but I wanted to get the point across that I think it's easier than any of the other builds, including defensive 4 gate.
|
Thanks a ton for all the info! PvP has been my downfall as of late, and it is sometimes hard to see which builds and guides have the TL community's "stamp of approval"
The Easiness rating is especially useful for some of us scrubs trying to work our way up the 4-gate infested ladder.
I tried to find it elsewhere, but couldn't: How do you transition out of a defensive 4-gate after you have held theirs or discovered they were not going 4 gate? Is it best to expand, or to put pressure back without the expansion? I had been stopping four gates this way, but I felt lost after I managed to survive.
|
Dominican Republic913 Posts
ok where is the Robo build?
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 01:45 WigginOut wrote:
Thanks a ton for all the info! PvP has been my downfall as of late, and it is sometimes hard to see which builds and guides have the TL community's "stamp of approval"
The Easiness rating is especially useful for some of us scrubs trying to work our way up the 4-gate infested ladder.
I tried to find it elsewhere, but couldn't: How do you transition out of a defensive 4-gate after you have held theirs or discovered they were not going 4 gate? Is it best to expand, or to put pressure back without the expansion? I had been stopping four gates this way, but I felt lost after I managed to survive.
Generally, get a 2nd gas as soon as you can rule out 4 gate and add either a robo or a twilight. Pressure back with the units that you do have. Don't go stargate however, as you won't get pheonix in time to even properly punish a collosi build.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 01:48 EliteReplay wrote:
ok where is the Robo build?
??? Did you read my entire post?
|
I solved the Gas steal problem with the 3 Stalker opening a long time ago. Let me look for a replay later today... Actually would you like to just create a replay sometime on bnet? PM me if so. If not I'll try to get one.
|
On August 20 2011 01:41 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 00:56 Geiko wrote:Hurray, a thread to link to to all those asking about PvP openers (was getting tired of having to search for 3 - 4 links every time I answered one of those questions) Haven't been laddering that much and I have NO idea what ToD's build is. I've been trying to find a safe way to gas steal in PvP but didn't think of walling off as an option to save some minerals. 2 out of 10 yeaaah ^^ Do you not agree? It could be higher, but I wanted to get the point across that I think it's easier than any of the other builds, including defensive 4 gate.
I wholeheartedly agree.That's what I like about my build, I have 5 minute to check out teamliquid at the beginning of every PvP :p
|
On August 20 2011 01:50 4kmonk wrote:
Generally, get a 2nd gas as soon as you can rule out 4 gate and add either a robo or a twilight. Pressure back with the units that you do have. Don't go stargate however, as you won't get pheonix in time to even properly punish a collosi build.
Thanks. What about expanding? My assumption is: If I stopped a 4gate, expand to press my advantage after I throw down a tech structure. If they didn't 4gate, pressure them while my tech is building but don't expand. Is this right, or should I stick to 'the first one to expand in PvP loses'?
|
Could you possibly include a replay or video of each of these builds. Would make understanding how they are executed much easier. I've seen Geiko's defensive 3gate and MC's 3gate, but builds like Tod's gas steal I haven't seen before.
|
Dominican Republic913 Posts
On August 20 2011 01:51 4kmonk wrote:??? Did you read my entire post?
ohhhhhhhh yes, i read it, i just forget.
|
On August 20 2011 02:25 Payson wrote:
Could you possibly include a replay or video of each of these builds. Would make understanding how they are executed much easier. I've seen Geiko's defensive 3gate and MC's 3gate, but builds like Tod's gas steal I haven't seen before.
Lol, has no one read the OP at all ? ^^
|
Add this one was practicing all day yesterday
Liquid`Tyler/Day[9]'s 2 Gate Robo
Pro Replay | Plat Replay
Difficulty of execution: 9/10
Probes at 5:45: 20
Required number of sentries: 1-3
2nd gas timing: 3:50
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: No
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 10/10
Notes: has super thin timings and force fields required to hold until you have immortals out. Once you hold off the the 4 gate it's almost a guaranteed win. (Whether it be expanding then out macroing, adding a 3 gate then going on the offensive, teching up to colossi/voidray/blink.)
|
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away.
|
actually the chronoboosts on the stalkers are a dead giveaway too but i guess u can transition a 3 stalker rush into a 4 gate
|
On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away.
Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can.
|
On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can.
Well you can turn anything into a 4 gate... just a bit delayed. I think what we're referring to as "looks like an offensive 4 gate" is "looks like your standard 12 gate 4 gate that's not delayed at all."
|
decently high masters player here, lately ive been using a gate and gas on 13 build where i open zealot sentry sentry (scout for 2nd gas) then go either stalker if he isnt 4 gating and sentry if he is. Opening zealot 3 sentries seems absurd in pvp but it is 4gate proof if u 3gate robo behind it and the timings and $$ amounts all line up so well. Ill post a guide once i can start threads (just signed up).
Worst case scenario he doesnt 4gate and i end up with 3 sentries but ff's are helpful if i go into colli and multiple guardian shields if i spread my army during a big battle. Plus halluc immorts could be a nice touch as well.
Youd think this would be really dangerous vs 3 staker openings but if u crono the 2nd sentry out you have stalker sentry sentry vs 3 stalks which if you ff even remotely properly not only holds it off but usually ends up with them losing a stalk and me losing nothing. This build only works for small ramp maps obviously.
also by opening zealot sentry you have extra monies for a gas steal which alot of times keeps the initial units from toss pinned in his base anyway. And if he leaves it pretty much forces the 4 gate which this build crushes.
I usually transition into 3gate blink + 2 immortals for a timing push vs a colli build, or just go right up to colli and turtle alot on 2 base if i see zealot archon. This crushes any blink build too with the immortals and blink so the biggest issue is the 1 base colli builds since the big fight requires alot of micro but can for sure be won.
If its the rare mirror (only ran into a handful of people doing the same build) i try to either outproduce/outmicro or go up to colli and hit after i get 3 colli since the 3gate blink immort push is really only effective vs 1-2 colli.
anyways, the thread is about 4gate stoppers so perhaps i went to far. But looking forward to typing up a guide for my build since ive put alot of work into pvp and dont dislike it anymore like i used to (i just find it a little boring).
|
On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can.
You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius.
Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931
Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 02:02 CecilSunkure wrote:
I solved the Gas steal problem with the 3 Stalker opening a long time ago. Let me look for a replay later today... Actually would you like to just create a replay sometime on bnet? PM me if so. If not I'll try to get one.
Well I know 2 solutions to the "gas steal problem". One is getting your 2nd gas early but not mining from it. This is the "other version of 2 gas into 3 stalker rush build" that I refer to. The other solution is getting an early zealot before your 3 stalker rush. This is kiwikaki's version of the 3 stalker rush build.
|
In my opinion it's not 4gate-proof if someone who is in the midst of doing a 4gate can scout your build, abandon the 4gate, safely be greedier than you, and end up with a tech advantage.
A 4gate counter build has to look like a 4gate right up to the point where you can deny further scouting. Or it has to look sufficiently threatening that your opponent won't dare be greedier than you.
And yes, I took "4 gate" to mean "Optimal 4 gate, not depending on metagaming fake-outs to work". If it loses to an optimal 4 gate, then it's not a "real" 4 gate.
edit: Removed misleading content.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 04:47 drybones wrote:
decently high masters player here, lately ive been using a gate and gas on 13 build where i open zealot sentry sentry (scout for 2nd gas) then go either stalker if he isnt 4 gating and sentry if he is. Opening zealot 3 sentries seems absurd in pvp but it is 4gate proof if u 3gate robo behind it and the timings and $$ amounts all line up so well. Ill post a guide once i can start threads (just signed up).
Worst case scenario he doesnt 4gate and i end up with 3 sentries but ff's are helpful if i go into colli and multiple guardian shields if i spread my army during a big battle. Plus halluc immorts could be a nice touch as well.
Youd think this would be really dangerous vs 3 staker openings but if u crono the 2nd sentry out you have stalker sentry sentry vs 3 stalks which if you ff even remotely properly not only holds it off but usually ends up with them losing a stalk and me losing nothing. This build only works for small ramp maps obviously.
also by opening zealot sentry you have extra monies for a gas steal which alot of times keeps the initial units from toss pinned in his base anyway. And if he leaves it pretty much forces the 4 gate which this build crushes.
I usually transition into 3gate blink + 2 immortals for a timing push vs a colli build, or just go right up to colli and turtle alot on 2 base if i see zealot archon. This crushes any blink build too with the immortals and blink so the biggest issue is the 1 base colli builds since the big fight requires alot of micro but can for sure be won.
If its the rare mirror (only ran into a handful of people doing the same build) i try to either outproduce/outmicro or go up to colli and hit after i get 3 colli since the 3gate blink immort push is really only effective vs 1-2 colli.
anyways, the thread is about 4gate stoppers so perhaps i went to far. But looking forward to typing up a guide for my build since ive put alot of work into pvp and dont dislike it anymore like i used to (i just find it a little boring).
You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP
|
On August 20 2011 04:47 drybones wrote:
decently high masters player here, lately ive been using a gate and gas on 13 build where i open zealot sentry sentry (scout for 2nd gas) then go either stalker if he isnt 4 gating and sentry if he is. Opening zealot 3 sentries seems absurd in pvp but it is 4gate proof if u 3gate robo behind it and the timings and $$ amounts all line up so well. Ill post a guide once i can start threads (just signed up).
Worst case scenario he doesnt 4gate and i end up with 3 sentries but ff's are helpful if i go into colli and multiple guardian shields if i spread my army during a big battle. Plus halluc immorts could be a nice touch as well.
Youd think this would be really dangerous vs 3 staker openings but if u crono the 2nd sentry out you have stalker sentry sentry vs 3 stalks which if you ff even remotely properly not only holds it off but usually ends up with them losing a stalk and me losing nothing. This build only works for small ramp maps obviously.
also by opening zealot sentry you have extra monies for a gas steal which alot of times keeps the initial units from toss pinned in his base anyway. And if he leaves it pretty much forces the 4 gate which this build crushes.
I usually transition into 3gate blink + 2 immortals for a timing push vs a colli build, or just go right up to colli and turtle alot on 2 base if i see zealot archon. This crushes any blink build too with the immortals and blink so the biggest issue is the 1 base colli builds since the big fight requires alot of micro but can for sure be won.
If its the rare mirror (only ran into a handful of people doing the same build) i try to either outproduce/outmicro or go up to colli and hit after i get 3 colli since the 3gate blink immort push is really only effective vs 1-2 colli.
anyways, the thread is about 4gate stoppers so perhaps i went to far. But looking forward to typing up a guide for my build since ive put alot of work into pvp and dont dislike it anymore like i used to (i just find it a little boring).
I have 2 big issues with PvP builds that blindly get a lot of sentries early on:
1) It's not the best way to deal with a 4 gate that pylons right below your ramp for the first wave of warp-ins.
2) Sentries are not the most efficient use of gas if neither side 4 gates. It also puts no pressure at all on your opponent, and he can safely do a greedy tech build without any sentries and will have the mid game advantage.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can. You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius. Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong.
You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate.
|
On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:47 drybones wrote:
decently high masters player here, lately ive been using a gate and gas on 13 build where i open zealot sentry sentry (scout for 2nd gas) then go either stalker if he isnt 4 gating and sentry if he is. Opening zealot 3 sentries seems absurd in pvp but it is 4gate proof if u 3gate robo behind it and the timings and $$ amounts all line up so well. Ill post a guide once i can start threads (just signed up).
Worst case scenario he doesnt 4gate and i end up with 3 sentries but ff's are helpful if i go into colli and multiple guardian shields if i spread my army during a big battle. Plus halluc immorts could be a nice touch as well.
Youd think this would be really dangerous vs 3 staker openings but if u crono the 2nd sentry out you have stalker sentry sentry vs 3 stalks which if you ff even remotely properly not only holds it off but usually ends up with them losing a stalk and me losing nothing. This build only works for small ramp maps obviously.
also by opening zealot sentry you have extra monies for a gas steal which alot of times keeps the initial units from toss pinned in his base anyway. And if he leaves it pretty much forces the 4 gate which this build crushes.
I usually transition into 3gate blink + 2 immortals for a timing push vs a colli build, or just go right up to colli and turtle alot on 2 base if i see zealot archon. This crushes any blink build too with the immortals and blink so the biggest issue is the 1 base colli builds since the big fight requires alot of micro but can for sure be won.
If its the rare mirror (only ran into a handful of people doing the same build) i try to either outproduce/outmicro or go up to colli and hit after i get 3 colli since the 3gate blink immort push is really only effective vs 1-2 colli.
anyways, the thread is about 4gate stoppers so perhaps i went to far. But looking forward to typing up a guide for my build since ive put alot of work into pvp and dont dislike it anymore like i used to (i just find it a little boring).
You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP
Also, if the guy scouts that many sentries early on, can't he just do whatever the hell he wants? Like throw down a tech building (or a nexus even?) without you being able to pressure him at all.
|
On August 20 2011 05:00 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can. You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius. Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong. You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate.
Well...can't he scout the fact that you built an early second gate but don't chrono the first stalker? It's the first stalker -- there won't be anything available to force the probe out. You also skip the zealot I assume? Seems like there are some significant differences from an optimal 4 gate there.
|
ty so much for this guide. because right now in eu high masters pvp it just looks like everyone besides Grubby just aggreeded to not 4-gate anymore.even when most people use unsafe builds.
edit:
only because you see a 2 gate opening which normally means 3stalker rush, doesn't mean that 4gate is less powerful. it's only delayed by a couple of seconds.
|
On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:
You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP
you dont have to, the way the timing works you ff the bottom of the ramp, if he really wants to warp 4 zealots in you can either ff the rest of the ramp so they cant come in then get 3 more stakers or just warp 3 zealots urself and fight them head on with ur 4 zealots total while leaving the rest of his army down the ramp. this requires backing up a bit and microing the sentries but it works just fine. by the time of his 2nd warpin i usually have an immort up as well so u can just cut off half his army and its already gg.
|
On August 20 2011 05:02 drybones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:
You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP you dont have to, the way the timing works you ff the bottom of the ramp, if he really wants to warp 4 zealots in you can either ff the rest of the ramp so they cant come in then get 3 more stakers or just warp 3 zealots urself and fight them head on with ur 4 zealots total while leaving the rest of his army down the ramp. this requires backing up a bit and microing the sentries but it works just fine. by the time of his 2nd warpin i usually have an immort up as well so u can just cut off half his army and its already gg.
your opponent can just attack with the first zealot+stalker which will cost you 2 more forcefields?
and you need a wall-in in order to deny the high-ground-warp-in, at least on standard ramps
|
On August 20 2011 04:56 galivet wrote:
In my opinion it's not 4gate-proof if someone who is in the midst of doing a 4gate can scout your build, abandon the 4gate, safely be greedier than you, and end up with a tech advantage.
Taking the 3 stalker rush example: If I'm going 4 gate and scout a second gateway go down while the cybercore is building, I can just immediately drop a robo and be head. Yes, 3 stalker rush would counter me if I foolishly continued my 4 gate, but since I scout the 3 stalker rush in time I can be slightly greedier than that build (while remaining safe) and get a tech advantage.
A 4gate counter build has to look like a 4gate right up to the point where you can deny further scouting. Or it has to look sufficiently threatening that your opponent won't dare be greedier than you.
You can keep scouting with a worker until ~10s before the stalker comes out. If you want to be so greedy that you drop the robo in the guys face, he can actually move across the map with 3 stalkers and a probe while dropping 2 more gates, and roll you over with the first warp-in. Also you aren't necessarily ahead in tech/econ. 3 stalker rush gets a faster second gas and doesn't cut as many probes as a hardcore 4gate.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 02:23 WigginOut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 01:50 4kmonk wrote:
Generally, get a 2nd gas as soon as you can rule out 4 gate and add either a robo or a twilight. Pressure back with the units that you do have. Don't go stargate however, as you won't get pheonix in time to even properly punish a collosi build. Thanks. What about expanding? My assumption is: If I stopped a 4gate, expand to press my advantage after I throw down a tech structure. If they didn't 4gate, pressure them while my tech is building but don't expand. Is this right, or should I stick to 'the first one to expand in PvP loses'?
Are you talking about specifically the defensive 4 gate build or in general? If you've stopped a 4 gate, you should make an immediate judgement of how far ahead you are. If you're just slightly ahead after the 4 gate, then expanding can lose you the game and it's safer just to tech and stay on 1 base. If you're way ahead, it's probably better to just blink stalker allin him, as there's close to no way of defending this after a really bad failed 4 gate. Expanding in this situation can also open the game up and cause you to possibly lose in the offchance.
|
On August 20 2011 05:00 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:On August 20 2011 04:47 drybones wrote:
decently high masters player here, lately ive been using a gate and gas on 13 build where i open zealot sentry sentry (scout for 2nd gas) then go either stalker if he isnt 4 gating and sentry if he is. Opening zealot 3 sentries seems absurd in pvp but it is 4gate proof if u 3gate robo behind it and the timings and $$ amounts all line up so well. Ill post a guide once i can start threads (just signed up).
Worst case scenario he doesnt 4gate and i end up with 3 sentries but ff's are helpful if i go into colli and multiple guardian shields if i spread my army during a big battle. Plus halluc immorts could be a nice touch as well.
Youd think this would be really dangerous vs 3 staker openings but if u crono the 2nd sentry out you have stalker sentry sentry vs 3 stalks which if you ff even remotely properly not only holds it off but usually ends up with them losing a stalk and me losing nothing. This build only works for small ramp maps obviously.
also by opening zealot sentry you have extra monies for a gas steal which alot of times keeps the initial units from toss pinned in his base anyway. And if he leaves it pretty much forces the 4 gate which this build crushes.
I usually transition into 3gate blink + 2 immortals for a timing push vs a colli build, or just go right up to colli and turtle alot on 2 base if i see zealot archon. This crushes any blink build too with the immortals and blink so the biggest issue is the 1 base colli builds since the big fight requires alot of micro but can for sure be won.
If its the rare mirror (only ran into a handful of people doing the same build) i try to either outproduce/outmicro or go up to colli and hit after i get 3 colli since the 3gate blink immort push is really only effective vs 1-2 colli.
anyways, the thread is about 4gate stoppers so perhaps i went to far. But looking forward to typing up a guide for my build since ive put alot of work into pvp and dont dislike it anymore like i used to (i just find it a little boring).
You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP Also, if the guy scouts that many sentries early on, can't he just do whatever the hell he wants? Like throw down a tech building (or a nexus even?) without you being able to pressure him at all.
well because i opened 3 sentries i have alot of money left over to do the same. basically it denies any early pressure and allows me to tech up just fine. The biggest issue is like i said if he doesnt end up 4gating i have 3 sentries lying around but i described how they can be useful. also if they expo they wont have anything massive in time to help vs my ff's and i can crush his army outside his nat.
also i try to hide my 3rd sentry unless i absolutely need it. You are right though i cant pressure right away but i have really strong 8-10 minute pushes depending on what hes going i vary my mixture, and at this point my sentries build up tons of energy whereas he just has early stalks or zeals which add no benefit just sitting around.
shrug i can just tell u it works really well and pvp is for sure my best matchup. I feel like my overall build isnt weak against any single strategy a protoss player can use which takes out the rock paper scissor aspect and just gives an overall really well rounded build.
Its very reactionary too which im sure makes it hard to tell what im doing when ur scouting and isnt easily counted by any build, you just have to outplay me basically since theres no build order wins vs me
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 05:02 drybones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:
You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP you dont have to, the way the timing works you ff the bottom of the ramp, if he really wants to warp 4 zealots in you can either ff the rest of the ramp so they cant come in then get 3 more stakers or just warp 3 zealots urself and fight them head on with ur 4 zealots total while leaving the rest of his army down the ramp. this requires backing up a bit and microing the sentries but it works just fine. by the time of his 2nd warpin i usually have an immort up as well so u can just cut off half his army and its already gg.
What's to prevent him from warping over those forcefields? In addition, another problem with your opening is that your opponent can force out forcefileds by walking up your ramp with 1 zealot + 1 stalker.
|
edit: Removed misleading post.
|
and if he 4gates its not like hes just gonna turn around. ive never seen anyone not even try unless i kill their proxy pylon (which can be done with 3 sentries just gotta be careful)
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 05:01 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 05:00 4kmonk wrote:On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can. You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius. Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong. You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate. Well...can't he scout the fact that you built an early second gate but don't chrono the first stalker? It's the first stalker -- there won't be anything available to force the probe out. You also skip the zealot I assume? Seems like there are some significant differences from an optimal 4 gate there.
You don't actually have to chorno the first stalker to do the 3 stalker rush. In addition, you don't drop your 3rd and 4th gateway until your first stalker is just about to come out. This build ends up with 1 zealot 6 stalkers 20 probes at the exact same time as the traditional "optimal 4 gate". Kiwikaki does this build a lot and naniwa has used this build both in TSL and GSTL.
|
Thanks for the clarifications 4monk, I believe you. I was just ignorant of those variations.
|
On August 20 2011 05:12 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 05:02 drybones wrote:On August 20 2011 04:57 4kmonk wrote:
You can't deny proxy pylons at the bottom of your ramp if you open 3 sentries. Also, 3 sentries is generally very bad in PvP you dont have to, the way the timing works you ff the bottom of the ramp, if he really wants to warp 4 zealots in you can either ff the rest of the ramp so they cant come in then get 3 more stakers or just warp 3 zealots urself and fight them head on with ur 4 zealots total while leaving the rest of his army down the ramp. this requires backing up a bit and microing the sentries but it works just fine. by the time of his 2nd warpin i usually have an immort up as well so u can just cut off half his army and its already gg. What's to prevent him from warping over those forcefields? In addition, another problem with your opening is that your opponent can force out forcefileds by walking up your ramp with 1 zealot + 1 stalker.
they do warp over the ff's but it doesnt matter. again either i ff the bottom of the ramp so i can ff again after the new zealots spawn or i just warp 3 more zealots to fight them and back up a little bit. Going zealot 3 sentry youd be amazed how long you can constantly ff even when "wasting" ff's you just have so friggin many at your disposal. and if u warp 3 zealots instead of stalkers hes just gonna lose all them trying to get to ur sentries. ill have to dig up some replays where ive held 4gates this way i promise you the 4gate isnt a problem its really only against a greedy 2/3gate colli build that i struggle with but even that ive beaten very fair % of
also you just ff the zealot or the stalker by itself and kill it without losing a unit. im not fantastic at micro and i can do this every time they walk up the ramp. the key is crono the 2nd sentry and its always zealot +2 sentries vs either zealot stalk or 3 stalks all of which can either be denied outright or even better just trap one. if u trap both kill the stalk first and micro against the zealot.
not sure what happens if i mis ff vs 3 stalks but it has yet to happen because again worst case you just throw a second ff and barf a little bit
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 05:13 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 05:08 Amui wrote:On August 20 2011 04:56 galivet wrote:
In my opinion it's not 4gate-proof if someone who is in the midst of doing a 4gate can scout your build, abandon the 4gate, safely be greedier than you, and end up with a tech advantage.
Taking the 3 stalker rush example: If I'm going 4 gate and scout a second gateway go down while the cybercore is building, I can just immediately drop a robo and be head. Yes, 3 stalker rush would counter me if I foolishly continued my 4 gate, but since I scout the 3 stalker rush in time I can be slightly greedier than that build (while remaining safe) and get a tech advantage.
A 4gate counter build has to look like a 4gate right up to the point where you can deny further scouting. Or it has to look sufficiently threatening that your opponent won't dare be greedier than you. You can keep scouting with a worker until ~10s before the stalker comes out. If you want to be so greedy that you drop the robo in the guys face, he can actually move across the map with 3 stalkers and a probe while dropping 2 more gates, and roll you over with the first warp-in. Also you aren't necessarily ahead in tech/econ. 3 stalker rush gets a faster second gas and doesn't cut as many probes as a hardcore 4gate. Well, "immediately" was a stupid word to use on my part. Obviously it's not immediate since my own cybercore will still be building at that point. My point is that I can see a three-stalker push coming in plenty of time to do a safe build that is also greedier than three-stalker rush, even if I was on my way to a 4 gate previously. You don't cut probes in an optimal 4 gate until well after your cybercore is finished.
The 3 stalker rush build you give is a bad example, because you can transition to the hardcore 4 gate even with what looks like a 3 stalker rush opening as I have detailed in my previous posts. However, the 2 gas into 3 stalker rush opening is a build that doesn't look like a 4 gate at all. While I do agree a greedy player can get ahead of a build like this, they don't get significantly ahead. Also, this is supposed to be a close to complete list of builds that stop 4 gate, so it would be wrong to forget about these types of builds.
|
Isn't there a 8s2z (or 9s1z?) 4g that open 3SR that acts as a defensive 4g and if it doesn't come them you hit with your own delayed 4g?
And I think you need a "Works on TDA/Crev./BSB" section, cause most of those don't.
|
|
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 05:24 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Isn't there a 8s2z (or 9s1z?) 4g that open 3SR that acts as a defensive 4g and if it doesn't come them you hit with your own delayed 4g?
And I think you need a "Works on TDA/Crev./BSB" section, cause most of those don't.
I kinda know what you're talking about but no one does that build anymore. And what's BSB?
I already have one of those reps in my guide =P.
|
On August 20 2011 05:00 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can. You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius. Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong. You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate.
Except that you can't bring the 2nd and 3rd stalker in time at the ramp. The 2nd you can, maybe, but you will have to skip the 3rd if you want the closest timing.
So it's not really a 3 stalker rush anymore. More like a 'trade the zealot for a mind-gamish gateway that will not be used". Not saying that's a bad build but still  .
And if you manage to bring 3 stalkers at a good timing at the ramp, you can't warp 4 stalkers (not enough gas), so you have to warp a slow zealot from a far away pylon, and delay the push while waiting the zealot. Quite ugly imo.
(You can try that yourself or actually see that on the Naniwa vs Genius game I believe, he can only warp 3 stalkers, then a late zealot that is not actually used at all)
Edit: Btw, I don't even think that you can bring a 2nd stalker in the classic 4gate, but yeah, it's rare that you can just do this build "in the face" to your opponent without him delaying it a little.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 05:44 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 05:00 4kmonk wrote:On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can. You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius. Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong. You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate. xcept that you can't bring the 2nd and 3rd stalker in time at the ramp. The 2nd you can, maybe, but you will have to skip the 3rd if you want the closest timing. So it's not really a 3 stalker rush anymore. More like a 'trade the zealot for a mind-gamish gateway that will not be used". Not saying that's a bad build but still . And if you manage to bring 3 stalkers at a good timing at the ramp, you can't warp 4 stalkers (not enough gas), so you have to warp a slow zealot from a far away pylon, and delay the push while waiting the zealot. Quite ugly imo. (You can try that yourself or actually see that on the Naniwa vs Genius game I believe, he can only warp 3 stalkers, then a late zealot that is not actually used at all)
My point is that for all practical purposes, it's a hardcore 4 gate from your opponent's perspective in that he has to defend it in the same way and can't go a greedy build.
|
On August 20 2011 05:47 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 05:44 ZenithM wrote:On August 20 2011 05:00 4kmonk wrote:On August 20 2011 04:49 ZenithM wrote:On August 20 2011 04:38 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 20 2011 04:17 galivet wrote:
3 stalker rush doesn't look like an offensive 4 gate does it? The second gateway started while the cybercore is still building is the dead give-away. Actually it looks like a 4 Gate except they get an earlier second gate and skip a Zealot. You can absolutely chrono WG research and get 3 Stalkers out (not-chrono'd) and just 4 Gate. I don't know how delayed WG research is however, I'd imagine not by much if any at all, though one of the gates is probably delayed. I'm not sure because I've never actually done it, I just know you can. You can maybe check out Naniwa vs Genius in the Ace match of GSTL F.United vs MVP. Naniwa did precisely a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate and faked out Genius. Link: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65931Imo you cannot actually do a hardcore 5:35-40 4gate with that build, but I could be wrong. You can do a hardcore 4 gate off the 3 stalker rush opening. You just don't chorno your first stalker and delay your 2nd and 3rd stalker in favor of the 3rd and 4th gateway. Your opponent will not be able to tell the difference between a 3 stalker rush and this 4 gate. xcept that you can't bring the 2nd and 3rd stalker in time at the ramp. The 2nd you can, maybe, but you will have to skip the 3rd if you want the closest timing. So it's not really a 3 stalker rush anymore. More like a 'trade the zealot for a mind-gamish gateway that will not be used". Not saying that's a bad build but still . And if you manage to bring 3 stalkers at a good timing at the ramp, you can't warp 4 stalkers (not enough gas), so you have to warp a slow zealot from a far away pylon, and delay the push while waiting the zealot. Quite ugly imo. (You can try that yourself or actually see that on the Naniwa vs Genius game I believe, he can only warp 3 stalkers, then a late zealot that is not actually used at all) My point is that for all practical purposes, it's a hardcore 4 gate from your opponent's perspective in that he has to defend it in the same way and can't go a greedy build.
Yeah, I agree of course
|
[QUOTE]On August 20 2011 05:44 4kmonk wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 20 2011 05:24 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Isn't there a 8s2z (or 9s1z?) 4g that open 3SR that acts as a defensive 4g and if it doesn't come them you hit with your own delayed 4g?
And what's BSB?
[/QUOTE]
Bel'shir Beach
|
Ok before this great thread turns into a discussion without any data, here's a replay on Tal'darim with me using 3 Stalker rush into 4 Gate against a standard 4 Gate.
I messed up the beginning and got behind like 3 seconds on everything, so at the end of the day my first warp-in was around 10 seconds slower with both of us sharing the same economy but me having 3S vs 1Z/2S
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-227252.jpg)
|
Nice thread , but the Tod's one is in fact from Naniwa .
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 06:11 Lazzi wrote:
Nice thread , but the Tod's one is in fact from Naniwa .
You're probably referring to the game vs kiwi in the MLG Dallas finals. However, that game was in a different patch and didn't involve naniwa gas stealing. Thus, I feel safe giving Tod credit.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 20 2011 05:59 Binabik wrote:Ok before this great thread turns into a discussion without any data, here's a replay on Tal'darim with me using 3 Stalker rush into 4 Gate against a standard 4 Gate. I messed up the beginning and got behind like 3 seconds on everything, so at the end of the day my first warp-in was around 10 seconds slower with both of us sharing the same economy but me having 3S vs 1Z/2S
What point are you trying to make exactly?
|
I use the 3 stalker rush, but I get 2 additional stalkers which finish right when warpgate finishes, totalling 5 stalkers but my WG research is a tad slower than my opponents if they were hardcore 4gating. However with 5 stalkers on the edge of the cliff, they almost instantly deny any proxy pylons. I will usually make 2 additional gates as well with a little bit later 2nd gas (around 26, or a tad after that), but if I do not suspect a 4gate I will cancel 1 of the gates and make a robo to transition into collosus. Also, if I know for sure my opponent is teching, and I see their second gas I am still able to skip my 2 additional stalkers to get out my tech faster to keep up with my opponent (which would just be the regular 3 stalker rush than).
I don't believe this type of build has been mentioned yet, as the builds you listed all include a sentry. I've had a lot of success with this build beating high masters and a few GM players too.
|
On August 20 2011 11:38 4kmonk wrote:
What point are you trying to make exactly?
Just aggreeing with you that 3 Stalker Rush can transition into offensive 4-gate.
|
On August 20 2011 00:56 Geiko wrote:Hurray, a thread to link to to all those asking about PvP openers (was getting tired of having to search for 3 - 4 links every time I answered one of those questions) Haven't been laddering that much and I have NO idea what ToD's build is. I've been trying to find a safe way to gas steal in PvP but didn't think of walling off as an option to save some minerals. 2 out of 10 yeaaah ^^ Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 20:28 julius33 wrote:
Im quite sure that Geikos build demands a wall, where only zealots/probes can pass through. (Advice from my Master/GM friend)
Otherwise opponent can get a pylon up inside the base + stalkers can get into your base.
With proper placement you will be 100% safe from 4gate as only 1 stalker can shoot the pylon powering your 2 gateways on your ramp and FF will be deadly.
Also, the wall removes the problem of zealots warping into your main as they will be quite useless.
White-Ra does this, infact, even if you lose 1 gate on your ramp you are still going to win with 2 gates.
Just my 2 cents... No my build doesn't require a wall off. You can do one if you want to be EVEN MORE (!!!) safe from 4 gate but it isn't at all mandatory. I don't do it because wall-offs are a huge liability in the mid game vs aggressive blink builds.
I just find that the wall takes stalkers completly(mostly) out of the 4gate, + since you are getting blink, your own stalkers wont be stuck in your base. But, maybe its just my awful unit control 
|
It was mentioned that Defensive 4 Gate isn't done nearly as much lately. Can someone explain why? Is it because the economic advantage isn't really enough to capitalize on?
|
Italy12246 Posts
Question about Geiko's build: i find that it's a bit harder to beat a 4gate with pylons straight beneath your ramp because with one stalker and one sentry it's hard to kill those pylons, and often the second and third stalkers arrive a little too late.
In that case, does it make sense to put your buildings a bit closer to your ramp (say, halfway between your nex and the ramp rather than next to the nexus in a simcity) to get the extra stalkers there 5 ish seconds faster, or is it just bad execution on my part?
|
On August 20 2011 18:46 Teoita wrote:
Question about Geiko's build: i find that it's a bit harder to beat a 4gate with pylons straight beneath your ramp because with one stalker and one sentry it's hard to kill those pylons, and often the second and third stalkers arrive a little too late.
In that case, does it make sense to put your buildings a bit closer to your ramp (say, halfway between your nex and the ramp rather than next to the nexus in a simcity) to get the extra stalkers there 5 ish seconds faster, or is it just bad execution on my part?
Yes, it makes sense having your buildings close to your ramp (but not too close). Also a pylon at your ramp is a good idea (fast warp ins, but also adds an obstacle to 4 gaters when they try to push up your ramp so they can't just a-move their stuff.)
You shouldn't try to kill the pylons under the ramp, your 2 additional stalkers will arrive in time to shoot at the warping in units though.
|
Italy12246 Posts
On August 20 2011 18:50 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 18:46 Teoita wrote:
Question about Geiko's build: i find that it's a bit harder to beat a 4gate with pylons straight beneath your ramp because with one stalker and one sentry it's hard to kill those pylons, and often the second and third stalkers arrive a little too late.
In that case, does it make sense to put your buildings a bit closer to your ramp (say, halfway between your nex and the ramp rather than next to the nexus in a simcity) to get the extra stalkers there 5 ish seconds faster, or is it just bad execution on my part? Yes, it makes sense having your buildings close to your ramp (but not too close). Also a pylon at your ramp is a good idea (fast warp ins, but also adds an obstacle to 4 gaters when they try to push up your ramp so they can't just a-move their stuff.) You shouldn't try to kill the pylons under the ramp, your 2 additional stalkers will arrive in time to shoot at the warping in units though.
Thank you very much <3 also thanks for the build, it's sooo good ^^
|
I have some dumb questions"
1) What is the difference between the "3 stalker rush" and 2 gas into "3 stalker rush 2 sentries" builds? I thought the 2 gas 3 stalker build was just a slight variant of the 3 stalker rush build where u get your 2nd gas on 18supply to stop gas steals, while the other build gets the 2nd gas during/after the 2nd gateway building??
2) Why does the 2gas 3 stalker build need 2 sentries?? Again, isnt it exactly like the 3 stalker rush where u rely on superior stalker count to defend 4gate?
3) Slightly off track from the anti-4gate discussion but.....Watching the TTone vs oGSMC replay for 2gas3stalkers, I am noticing they both go 13 gate then scout. On big 4 player maps, if you scout this late, will you miss scouting things like cannon rushes or proxy gates in time?? If so, how does the 2 gas 3 stalker build adjust for this?
|
On August 19 2011 17:35 sleepingdog wrote:
Good idea for a thread - especially because it gives people an idea of the current meta-game-problem in PvP: Which is how much safety you are willing to give up in order to gain an advantage over a non 4 gating opponent.
The only thing I don't really think is necessary/useful is including the wall-yes/no....you can pretty much include a wall with every build, even one gate robo into 2 more gates. The pros and cons of a wall are imo a different topic that's not really related to the structure of the respective build.
I feel like liquipedia should have a section for this (if it doesn't already) and should have sections for other anti-builds like anti-roach/ling all-in, anti-2rax, anti-1/1/1 etc.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 22 2011 08:07 bankai wrote:
I have some dumb questions"
1) What is the difference between the "3 stalker rush" and 2 gas into "3 stalker rush 2 sentries" builds? I thought the 2 gas 3 stalker build was just a slight variant of the 3 stalker rush build where u get your 2nd gas on 18supply to stop gas steals, while the other build gets the 2nd gas during/after the 2nd gateway building??
2) Why does the 2gas 3 stalker build need 2 sentries?? Again, isnt it exactly like the 3 stalker rush where u rely on superior stalker count to defend 4gate?
3) Slightly off track from the anti-4gate discussion but.....Watching the TTone vs oGSMC replay for 2gas3stalkers, I am noticing they both go 13 gate then scout. On big 4 player maps, if you scout this late, will you miss scouting things like cannon rushes or proxy gates in time?? If so, how does the 2 gas 3 stalker build adjust for this?
There are 4 variations of 3 stalker rush that I know of:
- 3 stalker rush: normal variation vulnerable to gas steals.
- 2 gas into 3 stalker rush: gets a quick gas and starts mining from it right away. You get 2 sentries with this variation, because that's how the resources line up. You get 100/200 exactly when your gateways free up, so you make 2 sentries.
- variation of 2 gas into 3 stalker rush: gets a quick gas but doesn't mine from it till later. Requires 1 sentry.
- kiwikaki variation of 3 stalker rush: gets a zealot before the 3 stalker rush so less vulnerable to gas steals
Also, their early game scouting patterns have nothing to do with their opening builds. They 12 scout, probably because it's MLG metal. Also, I didn't watch the replay, but I bet they run through the middle of the map to check for proxies.
|
On August 22 2011 11:54 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 08:07 bankai wrote:
I have some dumb questions"
1) What is the difference between the "3 stalker rush" and 2 gas into "3 stalker rush 2 sentries" builds? I thought the 2 gas 3 stalker build was just a slight variant of the 3 stalker rush build where u get your 2nd gas on 18supply to stop gas steals, while the other build gets the 2nd gas during/after the 2nd gateway building??
2) Why does the 2gas 3 stalker build need 2 sentries?? Again, isnt it exactly like the 3 stalker rush where u rely on superior stalker count to defend 4gate?
3) Slightly off track from the anti-4gate discussion but.....Watching the TTone vs oGSMC replay for 2gas3stalkers, I am noticing they both go 13 gate then scout. On big 4 player maps, if you scout this late, will you miss scouting things like cannon rushes or proxy gates in time?? If so, how does the 2 gas 3 stalker build adjust for this? There are 4 variations of 3 stalker rush that I know of: - 3 stalker rush: normal variation vulnerable to gas steals.
- 2 gas into 3 stalker rush: gets a quick gas and starts mining from it right away. You get 2 sentries with this variation, because that's how the resources line up. You get 100/200 exactly when your gateways free up, so you make 2 sentries.
- variation of 2 gas into 3 stalker rush: gets a quick gas but doesn't mine from it till later. Requires 1 sentry.
- kiwikaki variation of 3 stalker rush: gets a zealot before the 3 stalker rush so less vulnerable to gas steals
Also, their early game scouting patterns have nothing to do with their opening builds. They 12 scout, probably because it's MLG metal. Also, I didn't watch the replay, but I bet they run through the middle of the map to check for proxies.
Yes actually your spot on, they did go straight through the map and scouted cross position first I dont understand why though...wouldnt a proxy be hidden behind a natural or something (thinking like Metalopolis for example)? Or do you rely on the first 3 stalkers to check those areas??
Ohhh...can you give me a link to a replay or tell me the build order for kiwikaki's variation? is it pretty much just getting a zealot instead of the 2nd gas on 18 supply?
|
nice collection, i like the difficulty rating :D
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 22 2011 13:19 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 11:54 4kmonk wrote:On August 22 2011 08:07 bankai wrote:
I have some dumb questions"
1) What is the difference between the "3 stalker rush" and 2 gas into "3 stalker rush 2 sentries" builds? I thought the 2 gas 3 stalker build was just a slight variant of the 3 stalker rush build where u get your 2nd gas on 18supply to stop gas steals, while the other build gets the 2nd gas during/after the 2nd gateway building??
2) Why does the 2gas 3 stalker build need 2 sentries?? Again, isnt it exactly like the 3 stalker rush where u rely on superior stalker count to defend 4gate?
3) Slightly off track from the anti-4gate discussion but.....Watching the TTone vs oGSMC replay for 2gas3stalkers, I am noticing they both go 13 gate then scout. On big 4 player maps, if you scout this late, will you miss scouting things like cannon rushes or proxy gates in time?? If so, how does the 2 gas 3 stalker build adjust for this? There are 4 variations of 3 stalker rush that I know of: - 3 stalker rush: normal variation vulnerable to gas steals.
- 2 gas into 3 stalker rush: gets a quick gas and starts mining from it right away. You get 2 sentries with this variation, because that's how the resources line up. You get 100/200 exactly when your gateways free up, so you make 2 sentries.
- variation of 2 gas into 3 stalker rush: gets a quick gas but doesn't mine from it till later. Requires 1 sentry.
- kiwikaki variation of 3 stalker rush: gets a zealot before the 3 stalker rush so less vulnerable to gas steals
Also, their early game scouting patterns have nothing to do with their opening builds. They 12 scout, probably because it's MLG metal. Also, I didn't watch the replay, but I bet they run through the middle of the map to check for proxies. Yes actually your spot on, they did go straight through the map and scouted cross position first I dont understand why though...wouldnt a proxy be hidden behind a natural or something (thinking like Metalopolis for example)? Or do you rely on the first 3 stalkers to check those areas?? Ohhh...can you give me a link to a replay or tell me the build order for kiwikaki's variation? is it pretty much just getting a zealot instead of the 2nd gas on 18 supply?
No, proxy gates are always hidden in one of 2 places in on MLG metal. You can't just blind put the gates in his natural, because you can't scout the natural in time.
As for kiwikaki's build look for his reps vs Huk from NA blizzcon invitational.
|
|
|
United States8476 Posts
Game 1:
At 6:34, you have 6 stalkers and a sentry versus 3 and back off for some reason. You should stay on top of your ramp and hit pylons. If he start warping in units or his 3 stalkers try to get up your ramp, then you forcefield him off. Just bad decision making on your part. It has nothing to do with the build or your micro.
Game 2:
You won the game so, not going to comment.
|
Great idea for a thread mate. I really like the difficulty to execute score for each of the builds.
Going to have to try some of these build that I was not aware of.
|
bump to keep on top page, great idea for a thread.
|
(putting this here because I don't want to make a thread about it until I'm sure this is viable)
There's this build that i've been working on for a silver league friend (long story short he just rejoined sc2, and asked me what a good build is for PvT, PvZ, and PvP, I told him about the first two but had no idea what to say for PvP) that abuses the sentry build time decrease when building from a gateway to get 3 sentries and 1 zealot by the time a 4gate gets 2 stalkers 1 zealot, and warps in an additional 3 stalkers at 5:45 to deal with the 4gate. I've managed to get 26 probes, 3 stalkers, 3 sentries (all with enough energy for guardian shield, constant guardian shield lowers stalker dps by so much that the dps loss from getting a sentry is almost completely made up for) and a zealot by 5:45, and on unit test map my best performance in terms of microing (before 30 secs are up and the next warpin comes) is all of his units being dead and 2 stalkers of mine are alive (both badly damaged). I know that with micro the 4gater might be able to win, but I can sustain constant warpins of 3 stalkers, while the 4gater will be warping in mainly zealots.
The best way, I find, to deal with the 4gate warpins (after the first attack) is to focus the stalkers then kite the zealots around. Your constant stalker warpins, will eventually dwindle down the inconsistent (after the first 3) stalker zealot warpins of the 4gater. What the build gives you, more than anything else, is a huge economic advantage (7 more probes mining than the 4gater). If I had to show the build like in the OP, it would be:
SheffiTB's defensive 3gate
(I could provide a replay if you guys think it might be viable, bear in mind i'm a gold/plat terran player, not a protoss, and I was developping this build for a friend)
Difficulty of execution: 5/10 (i guess? it's more difficult than defensive 4gate for sure)
Probes at 5:45: 26
Required number of sentries: 3
Second gas timing: 3:00
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4gate?: No
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 0/10
Is this build worth a thread on? How can I provide replays if i'm not a protoss, or high level for that matter? Should I just keep the build to myself until either me or my friend are higher level? Should I abandon it completely?
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:15 SheffiTB wrote:
(putting this here because I don't want to make a thread about it until I'm sure this is viable)
There's this build that i've been working on for a silver league friend (long story short he just rejoined sc2, and asked me what a good build is for PvT, PvZ, and PvP, I told him about the first two but had no idea what to say for PvP) that abuses the sentry build time decrease when building from a gateway to get 3 sentries and 1 zealot by the time a 4gate gets 2 stalkers 1 zealot, and warps in an additional 3 stalkers at 5:45 to deal with the 4gate. I've managed to get 26 probes, 3 stalkers, 3 sentries (all with enough energy for guardian shield, constant guardian shield lowers stalker dps by so much that the dps loss from getting a sentry is almost completely made up for) and a zealot by 5:45, and on unit test map my best performance in terms of microing (before 30 secs are up and the next warpin comes) is all of his units being dead and 2 stalkers of mine are alive (both badly damaged). I know that with micro the 4gater might be able to win, but I can sustain constant warpins of 3 stalkers, while the 4gater will be warping in mainly zealots.
The best way, I find, to deal with the 4gate warpins (after the first attack) is to focus the stalkers then kite the zealots around. Your constant stalker warpins, will eventually dwindle down the inconsistent (after the first 3) stalker zealot warpins of the 4gater. What the build gives you, more than anything else, is a huge economic advantage (7 more probes mining than the 4gater). If I had to show the build like in the OP, it would be:
SheffiTB's defensive 3gate
(I could provide a replay if you guys think it might be viable, bear in mind i'm a gold/plat terran player, not a protoss, and I was developping this build for a friend)
Difficulty of execution: 5/10 (i guess? it's more difficult than defensive 4gate for sure)
Probes at 5:45: 26
Required number of sentries: 3
Second gas timing: 3:00
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4gate?: No
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 0/10
Is this build worth a thread on? How can I provide replays if i'm not a protoss, or high level for that matter? Should I just keep the build to myself until either me or my friend are higher level? Should I abandon it completely?
Probably/definitely not viable, although we'd need a replay to confirm. Even if it were somehow viable, anti 4 gate builds with 3 sentries are not very good.
|
On August 26 2011 02:22 4kmonk wrote:
Probably/definitely not viable, although we'd need a replay to confirm. Even if it were somehow viable, anti 4 gate builds with 3 sentries are not very good.
I will provide a replay then (though it will be against AI, is that OK? I'm a terran so ladder games will be hard to get).
Just wondering, why are builds with heavy sentry bad? Is it because of the lack of dps? Delay of tech? If it's either of those, I believe I adressed both in my post (this theoretically, with a second round of stalkers, could punish/kill greedy tech builds, and guardian shield makes up for lack of dps against 4gate).
The advantage with this build, more than anything else, is the amount of probes you can get while being safe against a 4gate. With better mechanics than mine (not that hard, I'm gold/plat and terran at that) you could get 27 probes out at 5:45. After that you will have to cut probes to defend the 4gate, but that's miles ahead of any PvP anti-4gate build I've seen, including MC's one (if I'm not mistaken, 26 probes is only if he scouts that 4gate isn't actually coming as he thought? Even if it's not I have one more probes than the megagosu's build)
Thanks.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:42 SheffiTB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:22 4kmonk wrote:
Probably/definitely not viable, although we'd need a replay to confirm. Even if it were somehow viable, anti 4 gate builds with 3 sentries are not very good.
I will provide a replay then (though it will be against AI, is that OK? I'm a terran so ladder games will be hard to get). Just wondering, why are builds with heavy sentry bad? Is it because of the lack of dps? Delay of tech? If it's either of those, I believe I adressed both in my post (this theoretically, with a second round of stalkers, could punish/kill greedy tech builds, and guardian shield makes up for lack of dps against 4gate). The advantage with this build, more than anything else, is the amount of probes you can get while being safe against a 4gate. With better mechanics than mine (not that hard, I'm gold/plat and terran at that) you could get 27 probes out at 5:45. After that you will have to cut probes to defend the 4gate, but that's miles ahead of any PvP anti-4gate build I've seen, including MC's one (if I'm not mistaken, 26 probes is only if he scouts that 4gate isn't actually coming as he thought? Even if it's not I have one more probes than the megagosu's build) Thanks.
Heavy sentries builds are bad because they use up too much gas. As you may know, gas is usually the limiting resource in PvP. Sentries are also generally useless units in late game PvP. You also cannot punish greedy tech builds with sentries.
MC's build can get 26 probes even versus a 4 gate. There are 2 different variations, one that attempts to look like an offensive 4 gate more and one that attempts to look like it less. The one that looks like it more can get 24-25 probes while the one that looks like it less can get 25-26 probes. I'll add a notes section in my guide to account for this.
As for the replay, you'd probably have to post one versus an actual protoss. To be honest though, I'm fairly certain your build won't hold up to a well executed 4 gate.
|
After patch 1.4, its looking like the key to stopping 4-gate (and being safe against Blink) is basically just:
get a Sentry to wallof ramp, now as of patch 1.4 they can't get vision to the top of the ramp.
and
Build an Immortal. As of patch 1.4 Immortals have equal range with Stalkers, so normal Stalkers will get roflstomped pretty hard, and even Blink Stalkers will struggle a lot with them.
I think it is clear that Blizzard wants a more stable PvP, and if that means making robo opening "standard" and reasonably safe, so be it. The nice thing is that Immortals will also be stronger vs. Colossi and Guardin Shield now works against them, so while Robo openings will become much more standard in PvP, I actually think lategame War of the Worlds will be significantly reduced.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 26 2011 03:36 awesomoecalypse wrote:
After patch 1.4, its looking like the key to stopping 4-gate (and being safe against Blink) is basically just:
get a Sentry to wallof ramp, now as of patch 1.4 they can't get vision to the top of the ramp.
and
Build an Immortal. As of patch 1.4 Immortals have equal range with Stalkers, so normal Stalkers will get roflstomped pretty hard, and even Blink Stalkers will struggle a lot with them.
I think it is clear that Blizzard wants a more stable PvP, and if that means making robo opening "standard" and reasonably safe, so be it. The nice thing is that Immortals will also be stronger vs. Colossi and Guardin Shield now works against them, so while Robo openings will become much more standard in PvP, I actually think lategame War of the Worlds will be significantly reduced.
I actually disagree with a point. Because of the immortal buff and blink nerf, I actually predict more collosi builds.
|
On August 26 2011 03:44 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:36 awesomoecalypse wrote:
After patch 1.4, its looking like the key to stopping 4-gate (and being safe against Blink) is basically just:
get a Sentry to wallof ramp, now as of patch 1.4 they can't get vision to the top of the ramp.
and
Build an Immortal. As of patch 1.4 Immortals have equal range with Stalkers, so normal Stalkers will get roflstomped pretty hard, and even Blink Stalkers will struggle a lot with them.
I think it is clear that Blizzard wants a more stable PvP, and if that means making robo opening "standard" and reasonably safe, so be it. The nice thing is that Immortals will also be stronger vs. Colossi and Guardin Shield now works against them, so while Robo openings will become much more standard in PvP, I actually think lategame War of the Worlds will be significantly reduced.
I actually disagree with a point. Because of the immortal buff and blink nerf, I actually predict more collosi builds.
I thought chargelot archon was beeat stalker colossus until super lategame? Then again I'm not P, so idk.
|
I actually disagree with a point. Because of the immortal buff and blink nerf, I actually predict more collosi builds.
Colossi without Extended Thermal Lance now have equal range to Immortals, and GS working against Colossus (and stacking with Guardian Shield), means that one Colossi without Extended Lance really isn't that scary. It'll take it 15 shots, or just under 25 seconds, to kill an Immortal, whereas an Immortal will kill a Colossi in 8 shots or 11.6 seconds--and now that GS will be defending your army, they won't simply be melted by Colossi fire in the meantime (it takes a Colossi 7 shots to bring down a Gateway Unit protected by GS). To say nothing of the fact that Immortals cost 50/100 less than Colossus straight up, and thats not even factoring the huge tech cost of the robo bay and researching extended thermal lance.
If one player goes for Colossi, it will take them 200/200 and 65 seconds to get the Robo Bay. Then 300/200 and 75 seconds (50 with CB) for the first Colossus. Meanwhile ETL will cost you 200/200 and 140 seconds (94 with CB) after the Robo Bay completed, and getting a 2nd Colossus will cost you another 300/200 and somewhere between 75 and 50 seconds.
So, the entire process will take about 165 seconds if you use the maximum amount of CB, and will cost 1000/800. After that, they'll have 2 Colossi and Extended Lance, at which point their opponent is a bit screwed.
But in that window, they are pretty damn vulnerable. Their is no way their army strength will be better until a couple Colossi pop out, and their Colossi will be super vulnerable to Immortal fire until ETL finishes. For instance, if you push out at a player teching Colossi, its possible to have 2 Immortals and a Warp Prism finished and on their way to their base, while the Colossi player will still only have one Colossus on the field, and will be a minute away from their second Colossus and ETL.
|
I have tried a funky build that worked quite well. It involves 3 cannons to block the ramp 1 sentry to hold off zealots and trap units and phoenix as well as immortals. i opened with one gate into core into forge into stargate three cannons into robo. once the 4 gate comes the three cannons and the sentry make it impossible to come up the ramp. now you need 5 phoenixes (no more. but always try to maintain 5) and the rest is immortals and zealots a transition into . the oponent will probably try to get either blink stalkers, expand, get collossus or maybe try warp prisms.
with phoenixes you can harass the mineral line and scout. if a warp prism rush comes you can kill off the warp prism very easily and kill off the warped in units with zealots+immortal+phoenixes.
if you spot an expansion you can expand yourself and keep harassing the mineral line.
if the opponent tries colossus you can just attak and kill the stalkers with zealot immortal and lift any immortals the opponent has. any collosus that are already out can be harassed by phoenixes
i had good results against 4 gaters but probably thats because my opponents were bad lol.
anyway if you are tired of 4 gate vs. 4gate this might be a good build for you
|
On August 26 2011 07:32 farnham wrote:
I have tried a funky build that worked quite well. It involves 3 cannons to block the ramp 1 sentry to hold off zealots and trap units and phoenix as well as immortals. i opened with one gate into core into forge into stargate three cannons into robo. once the 4 gate comes the three cannons and the sentry make it impossible to come up the ramp. now you need 5 phoenixes (no more. but always try to maintain 5) and the rest is immortals and zealots a transition into . the oponent will probably try to get either blink stalkers, expand, get collossus or maybe try warp prisms.
with phoenixes you can harass the mineral line and scout. if a warp prism rush comes you can kill off the warp prism very easily and kill off the warped in units with zealots+immortal+phoenixes.
if you spot an expansion you can expand yourself and keep harassing the mineral line.
if the opponent tries colossus you can just attak and kill the stalkers with zealot immortal and lift any immortals the opponent has. any collosus that are already out can be harassed by phoenixes
i had good results against 4 gaters but probably thats because my opponents were bad lol.
anyway if you are tired of 4 gate vs. 4gate this might be a good build for you
Really seems like the opponent would just see your cannons and drop a nexus immediately, before even warping in a significant number of units. In PVZ it's pretty easy to defend 3 bases from phoenix, couldn't a protoss player easily defend 2? You commit 600 minerals early on to cannons that he's just putting in a nexus and probes.
|
On August 26 2011 15:05 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:32 farnham wrote:
I have tried a funky build that worked quite well. It involves 3 cannons to block the ramp 1 sentry to hold off zealots and trap units and phoenix as well as immortals. i opened with one gate into core into forge into stargate three cannons into robo. once the 4 gate comes the three cannons and the sentry make it impossible to come up the ramp. now you need 5 phoenixes (no more. but always try to maintain 5) and the rest is immortals and zealots a transition into . the oponent will probably try to get either blink stalkers, expand, get collossus or maybe try warp prisms.
with phoenixes you can harass the mineral line and scout. if a warp prism rush comes you can kill off the warp prism very easily and kill off the warped in units with zealots+immortal+phoenixes.
if you spot an expansion you can expand yourself and keep harassing the mineral line.
if the opponent tries colossus you can just attak and kill the stalkers with zealot immortal and lift any immortals the opponent has. any collosus that are already out can be harassed by phoenixes
i had good results against 4 gaters but probably thats because my opponents were bad lol.
anyway if you are tired of 4 gate vs. 4gate this might be a good build for you Really seems like the opponent would just see your cannons and drop a nexus immediately, before even warping in a significant number of units. In PVZ it's pretty easy to defend 3 bases from phoenix, couldn't a protoss player easily defend 2? You commit 600 minerals early on to cannons that he's just putting in a nexus and probes.
usually im ahead in probes as 4 gaters cut probes
also i can scout the nexus and throwdown a nexus myself
also harass with phoenixes to reduce his probes
|
I see you added the "extra gas" criteria which is a good thing.
Personally, I would also like to see the criteria : Does this build work against Adelscott's PvP Build ?
|
good thread, nice to read.. keep it up :-)
|
As most of the builds listed can stop a 4gate with relative ease now, it might be prudent to list how those builds fare against the version that aims to stick a 1-2 pylons on top of the ramp. From my experience a FAST probe pull can deal with one pylon on top of the ramp almost regardless of build provided you can kill the probe, and a lowground pylon is fairly worthless with the new patch. Perhaps even 2 pylons on high ground can be dealt with by a probe pull but maybe 3 pylons?
|
On August 26 2011 17:36 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 15:05 sylverfyre wrote:On August 26 2011 07:32 farnham wrote:
I have tried a funky build that worked quite well. It involves 3 cannons to block the ramp 1 sentry to hold off zealots and trap units and phoenix as well as immortals. i opened with one gate into core into forge into stargate three cannons into robo. once the 4 gate comes the three cannons and the sentry make it impossible to come up the ramp. now you need 5 phoenixes (no more. but always try to maintain 5) and the rest is immortals and zealots a transition into . the oponent will probably try to get either blink stalkers, expand, get collossus or maybe try warp prisms.
with phoenixes you can harass the mineral line and scout. if a warp prism rush comes you can kill off the warp prism very easily and kill off the warped in units with zealots+immortal+phoenixes.
if you spot an expansion you can expand yourself and keep harassing the mineral line.
if the opponent tries colossus you can just attak and kill the stalkers with zealot immortal and lift any immortals the opponent has. any collosus that are already out can be harassed by phoenixes
i had good results against 4 gaters but probably thats because my opponents were bad lol.
anyway if you are tired of 4 gate vs. 4gate this might be a good build for you Really seems like the opponent would just see your cannons and drop a nexus immediately, before even warping in a significant number of units. In PVZ it's pretty easy to defend 3 bases from phoenix, couldn't a protoss player easily defend 2? You commit 600 minerals early on to cannons that he's just putting in a nexus and probes. usually im ahead in probes as 4 gaters cut probes also i can scout the nexus and throwdown a nexus myself also harass with phoenixes to reduce his probes
Sorry, that's really not viable. You're saying you'll spend 600 minerals on static defense, and if he responds by spending 400 on a Nexus, you'll build a Nexus yourself. How are you going to defend an expansion when your opponent has a 600 mineral army advantage over you?
|
My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430
|
On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430
I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does.
|
On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does.
You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely)
|
On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely)
Nah I'm on EU 
But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate.
Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were
-5:31 with 1 CB on nexus
-5:39 with 2 CB on nexus
Is your immortal out in time with your build ?
|
On October 06 2011 01:15 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely) Nah I'm on EU But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate. Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were -5:31 with 1 CB on nexus -5:39 with 2 CB on nexus Is your immortal out in time with your build ?
Best I've done is 5z/1s/1 immo at ~5:50. So maybe. It depends where your pylon is and if you lose units trying to warp your first round in my base.
I put my pylons and buildings at my nexus so that I don't have anything up near the ramp to kill. So you have to get up my ramp and back to my nexus before you can start shooting stuff. I don't have problems with 4 gate unless I screw up, but 5:31 is faster than I've seen since the WG nerf.
|
On October 06 2011 01:22 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 01:15 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely) Nah I'm on EU But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate. Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were -5:31 with 1 CB on nexus -5:39 with 2 CB on nexus Is your immortal out in time with your build ? Best I've done is 5z/1s/1 immo at ~5:50. So maybe. It depends where your pylon is and if you lose units trying to warp your first round in my base. I put my pylons and buildings at my nexus so that I don't have anything up near the ramp to kill. So you have to get up my ramp and back to my nexus before you can start shooting stuff. I don't have problems with 4 gate unless I screw up, but 5:31 is faster than I've seen since the WG nerf.
Opening 10pylon 10gate and going Stalker-Zealot-Robo-Gate-Zealot let's you get 2 Zealots, 1 stalker, and an Immortal by 5:30, and you add on 2 stalkers by 5:40 from Warpgates and 1 sentry 1 zealot by 6:10, obviously. Since you open 10 gate into Chrono'd Stalker you can deny proxy pylons unless they go 1 Z 2 Stalkers before warpgate finishes. The reason you warp in a 1 Z 1 Sentry with your 2nd round is that while 3 Stalkers 2 Zealots and 1 Immortal beats 1 Z 5 Stalkers with 1-2 units lost, 3 Stalkers, 4 Zealots, 1 Immortal loses to 4-5 Z 5 Stalker which is their 2nd rnd of warp ins, so you need the sentry to cut in half at ramp.
You can also open 9pylon 11 gate 11 gas, or 9 Pylon 12gate 13 gate and get to this same point. The problem is each time you delay your Zealot gives 4 gate more time to get Zealot Stalker Probe out against your lone Stalker. In all cases, you can deny scouting and get a Robo right around 3:55, looking like a 10gate 4gate, and still get a smooth immortal out. You will, however, not be able to afford a 2nd immortal to stop a 4gate, but I don't think that's needed.
|
On August 19 2011 17:19 NrGmonk wrote:2 Gas into 3 stalker rush with 2 sentriesReplayDifficulty of execution: 5/10 Probes at 5:45: 25 Required number of sentries: 2 2nd gas timing: 3:00 Wall?: No Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: No How much does a gas steal hurt?: 0/10 Excess gas: 136
I'm pretty sure a gas-steal hurts 10/10 in this build
|
I do a 1 gate DT expand which auto wins against the 5:45-6:00 4gate builds.
|
United States8476 Posts
On October 06 2011 02:22 Nolot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 17:19 NrGmonk wrote:2 Gas into 3 stalker rush with 2 sentriesReplayDifficulty of execution: 5/10 Probes at 5:45: 25 Required number of sentries: 2 2nd gas timing: 3:00 Wall?: No Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: No How much does a gas steal hurt?: 0/10 Excess gas: 136 I'm pretty sure a gas-steal hurts 10/10 in this build
You get the gas before he can steal you normally. If he gas steals you really early, you can do a different build, because you haven't committed to anything at that time.
|
United States8476 Posts
On October 06 2011 02:23 Pandepic wrote:
I do a 1 gate DT expand which auto wins against the 5:45-6:00 4gate builds.
No it doesn't.
|
I've been doing kcdc's 1 gas immortal build lately with a ton of success. Especially on Tal'Darim where people still 4-gate, it's wonderful. Takes decent micro of course, but every build in PvP does.
My followup is expanding as soon as his 4 gate is done (or I know it isn't coming). Zealots plus tons of immortals will hold blink pushes fairly easily, Colossus all-ins now require thermal lance to be at all effective against immortal armies and the warp prism buff means immortal drops work great against colossus too. 1 base colossus is just bad lately, imo.
I'm not sure whether I should be transitioning into 2 base colossus or charge and archons after I hold the expo, but it's a very solid gameplan so far for me.
|
On October 06 2011 02:14 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 01:22 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 01:15 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely) Nah I'm on EU But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate. Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were -5:31 with 1 CB on nexus -5:39 with 2 CB on nexus Is your immortal out in time with your build ? Best I've done is 5z/1s/1 immo at ~5:50. So maybe. It depends where your pylon is and if you lose units trying to warp your first round in my base. I put my pylons and buildings at my nexus so that I don't have anything up near the ramp to kill. So you have to get up my ramp and back to my nexus before you can start shooting stuff. I don't have problems with 4 gate unless I screw up, but 5:31 is faster than I've seen since the WG nerf. Opening 10pylon 10gate and going Stalker-Zealot-Robo-Gate-Zealot let's you get 2 Zealots, 1 stalker, and an Immortal by 5:30, and you add on 2 stalkers by 5:40 from Warpgates and 1 sentry 1 zealot by 6:10, obviously. Since you open 10 gate into Chrono'd Stalker you can deny proxy pylons unless they go 1 Z 2 Stalkers before warpgate finishes. The reason you warp in a 1 Z 1 Sentry with your 2nd round is that while 3 Stalkers 2 Zealots and 1 Immortal beats 1 Z 5 Stalkers with 1-2 units lost, 3 Stalkers, 4 Zealots, 1 Immortal loses to 4-5 Z 5 Stalker which is their 2nd rnd of warp ins, so you need the sentry to cut in half at ramp. You can also open 9pylon 11 gate 11 gas, or 9 Pylon 12gate 13 gate and get to this same point. The problem is each time you delay your Zealot gives 4 gate more time to get Zealot Stalker Probe out against your lone Stalker. In all cases, you can deny scouting and get a Robo right around 3:55, looking like a 10gate 4gate, and still get a smooth immortal out. You will, however, not be able to afford a 2nd immortal to stop a 4gate, but I don't think that's needed.
My philosophy in PvP is that, generally speaking, building sentries or stalkers puts you behind. There are some exceptions (if your opponent has flying units, you need stalkers), but for the most part, zealots are the strongest unit in PvP, and immortals keep zealots safe from stalker kiting. So if you give me a choice between two relatively safe builds where one has 3 stalkers and a sentry and the other has only zealot+immortal+1 stalker, I'll take the latter.
I haven't run into anyone that plays PvP like I do tho, so maybe I'm doing something completely wrong. But at the high masters/low GM level, my style works very well.
|
On October 06 2011 02:35 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 02:14 Sleight wrote:On October 06 2011 01:22 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 01:15 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely) Nah I'm on EU But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate. Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were -5:31 with 1 CB on nexus -5:39 with 2 CB on nexus Is your immortal out in time with your build ? Best I've done is 5z/1s/1 immo at ~5:50. So maybe. It depends where your pylon is and if you lose units trying to warp your first round in my base. I put my pylons and buildings at my nexus so that I don't have anything up near the ramp to kill. So you have to get up my ramp and back to my nexus before you can start shooting stuff. I don't have problems with 4 gate unless I screw up, but 5:31 is faster than I've seen since the WG nerf. Opening 10pylon 10gate and going Stalker-Zealot-Robo-Gate-Zealot let's you get 2 Zealots, 1 stalker, and an Immortal by 5:30, and you add on 2 stalkers by 5:40 from Warpgates and 1 sentry 1 zealot by 6:10, obviously. Since you open 10 gate into Chrono'd Stalker you can deny proxy pylons unless they go 1 Z 2 Stalkers before warpgate finishes. The reason you warp in a 1 Z 1 Sentry with your 2nd round is that while 3 Stalkers 2 Zealots and 1 Immortal beats 1 Z 5 Stalkers with 1-2 units lost, 3 Stalkers, 4 Zealots, 1 Immortal loses to 4-5 Z 5 Stalker which is their 2nd rnd of warp ins, so you need the sentry to cut in half at ramp. You can also open 9pylon 11 gate 11 gas, or 9 Pylon 12gate 13 gate and get to this same point. The problem is each time you delay your Zealot gives 4 gate more time to get Zealot Stalker Probe out against your lone Stalker. In all cases, you can deny scouting and get a Robo right around 3:55, looking like a 10gate 4gate, and still get a smooth immortal out. You will, however, not be able to afford a 2nd immortal to stop a 4gate, but I don't think that's needed. My philosophy in PvP is that, generally speaking, building sentries or stalkers puts you behind. There are some exceptions (if your opponent has flying units, you need stalkers), but for the most part, zealots are the strongest unit in PvP, and immortals keep zealots safe from stalker kiting. So if you give me a choice between two relatively safe builds where one has 3 stalkers and a sentry and the other has only zealot+immortal+1 stalker, I'll take the latter. I haven't run into anyone that plays PvP like I do tho, so maybe I'm doing something completely wrong. But at the high masters/low GM level, my style works very well.
I completely hear what you are saying, but those aren't the only differences. The build I suggest has 2 gas and is 10 seconds faster. The only gas I spend more than you is what is mined from that 2nd gas BUT when you go Tech, I have had mine up longer, so even at time zero, where we stop the 4gate, I am ahead, and every time I cut a Stalker for Zealot, I get that much more ahead.
Furthermore, you only need all those Stalkers vs. 4 gate. notice you build 1 and then warp in 2 more. So if I see 2 fast gas or a build that is obviously not 4-gating, I can go fast 2nd immortal (the cost of 2 stalkers I now don't have to warp in), a Twilight, a Robo Bay, Stargate, or even expand with more gas support. Not to mention, as Geiko pointed out, the 4gates I face come at 5:40 like clockwork, which this build is safe against, and 10 seconds without FF access seems like an eternity.
So for me, playing a slightly safer build (re: earlier stalker, faster Warpgate,, and Immortal, option for a Sentry), even if it "wastes" money on Stalkers and a 2nd gas after the 2nd gate, means if I were to execute it horribly making it by 5:50, where apparently you experience 4gates, I would still be incredibly safe.
|
United States8476 Posts
On October 06 2011 02:35 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 02:14 Sleight wrote:On October 06 2011 01:22 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 01:15 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely) Nah I'm on EU But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate. Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were -5:31 with 1 CB on nexus -5:39 with 2 CB on nexus Is your immortal out in time with your build ? Best I've done is 5z/1s/1 immo at ~5:50. So maybe. It depends where your pylon is and if you lose units trying to warp your first round in my base. I put my pylons and buildings at my nexus so that I don't have anything up near the ramp to kill. So you have to get up my ramp and back to my nexus before you can start shooting stuff. I don't have problems with 4 gate unless I screw up, but 5:31 is faster than I've seen since the WG nerf. Opening 10pylon 10gate and going Stalker-Zealot-Robo-Gate-Zealot let's you get 2 Zealots, 1 stalker, and an Immortal by 5:30, and you add on 2 stalkers by 5:40 from Warpgates and 1 sentry 1 zealot by 6:10, obviously. Since you open 10 gate into Chrono'd Stalker you can deny proxy pylons unless they go 1 Z 2 Stalkers before warpgate finishes. The reason you warp in a 1 Z 1 Sentry with your 2nd round is that while 3 Stalkers 2 Zealots and 1 Immortal beats 1 Z 5 Stalkers with 1-2 units lost, 3 Stalkers, 4 Zealots, 1 Immortal loses to 4-5 Z 5 Stalker which is their 2nd rnd of warp ins, so you need the sentry to cut in half at ramp. You can also open 9pylon 11 gate 11 gas, or 9 Pylon 12gate 13 gate and get to this same point. The problem is each time you delay your Zealot gives 4 gate more time to get Zealot Stalker Probe out against your lone Stalker. In all cases, you can deny scouting and get a Robo right around 3:55, looking like a 10gate 4gate, and still get a smooth immortal out. You will, however, not be able to afford a 2nd immortal to stop a 4gate, but I don't think that's needed. My philosophy in PvP is that, generally speaking, building sentries or stalkers puts you behind. There are some exceptions (if your opponent has flying units, you need stalkers), but for the most part, zealots are the strongest unit in PvP, and immortals keep zealots safe from stalker kiting. So if you give me a choice between two relatively safe builds where one has 3 stalkers and a sentry and the other has only zealot+immortal+1 stalker, I'll take the latter. I haven't run into anyone that plays PvP like I do tho, so maybe I'm doing something completely wrong. But at the high masters/low GM level, my style works very well.
I feel like stalkers are essential in PvP. Whoever has more stalkers at almost any time in the matchup has map control. If you have map control, you can rule out many possibilities from your opponent and can play much more greedy.
|
On October 06 2011 02:47 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 02:35 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 02:14 Sleight wrote:On October 06 2011 01:22 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 01:15 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely) Nah I'm on EU But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate. Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were -5:31 with 1 CB on nexus -5:39 with 2 CB on nexus Is your immortal out in time with your build ? Best I've done is 5z/1s/1 immo at ~5:50. So maybe. It depends where your pylon is and if you lose units trying to warp your first round in my base. I put my pylons and buildings at my nexus so that I don't have anything up near the ramp to kill. So you have to get up my ramp and back to my nexus before you can start shooting stuff. I don't have problems with 4 gate unless I screw up, but 5:31 is faster than I've seen since the WG nerf. Opening 10pylon 10gate and going Stalker-Zealot-Robo-Gate-Zealot let's you get 2 Zealots, 1 stalker, and an Immortal by 5:30, and you add on 2 stalkers by 5:40 from Warpgates and 1 sentry 1 zealot by 6:10, obviously. Since you open 10 gate into Chrono'd Stalker you can deny proxy pylons unless they go 1 Z 2 Stalkers before warpgate finishes. The reason you warp in a 1 Z 1 Sentry with your 2nd round is that while 3 Stalkers 2 Zealots and 1 Immortal beats 1 Z 5 Stalkers with 1-2 units lost, 3 Stalkers, 4 Zealots, 1 Immortal loses to 4-5 Z 5 Stalker which is their 2nd rnd of warp ins, so you need the sentry to cut in half at ramp. You can also open 9pylon 11 gate 11 gas, or 9 Pylon 12gate 13 gate and get to this same point. The problem is each time you delay your Zealot gives 4 gate more time to get Zealot Stalker Probe out against your lone Stalker. In all cases, you can deny scouting and get a Robo right around 3:55, looking like a 10gate 4gate, and still get a smooth immortal out. You will, however, not be able to afford a 2nd immortal to stop a 4gate, but I don't think that's needed. My philosophy in PvP is that, generally speaking, building sentries or stalkers puts you behind. There are some exceptions (if your opponent has flying units, you need stalkers), but for the most part, zealots are the strongest unit in PvP, and immortals keep zealots safe from stalker kiting. So if you give me a choice between two relatively safe builds where one has 3 stalkers and a sentry and the other has only zealot+immortal+1 stalker, I'll take the latter. I haven't run into anyone that plays PvP like I do tho, so maybe I'm doing something completely wrong. But at the high masters/low GM level, my style works very well. I completely hear what you are saying, but those aren't the only differences. The build I suggest has 2 gas and is 10 seconds faster. The only gas I spend more than you is what is mined from that 2nd gas BUT when you go Tech, I have had mine up longer, so even at time zero, where we stop the 4gate, I am ahead, and every time I cut a Stalker for Zealot, I get that much more ahead. Furthermore, you only need all those Stalkers vs. 4 gate. notice you build 1 and then warp in 2 more. So if I see 2 fast gas or a build that is obviously not 4-gating, I can go fast 2nd immortal (the cost of 2 stalkers I now don't have to warp in), a Twilight, a Robo Bay, Stargate, or even expand with more gas support. Not to mention, as Geiko pointed out, the 4gates I face come at 5:40 like clockwork, which this build is safe against, and 10 seconds without FF access seems like an eternity. So for me, playing a slightly safer build (re: earlier stalker, faster Warpgate,, and Immortal, option for a Sentry), even if it "wastes" money on Stalkers and a 2nd gas after the 2nd gate, means if I were to execute it horribly making it by 5:50, where apparently you experience 4gates, I would still be incredibly safe.
I'm don't doubt that the 10-gate immortal build is safe, and I acknowledge that it has more gas which a lot of people think is the key to winning PvP. I happen to disagree on that point; I like zealots, and gas doesn't buy you zealots. You could consider my build a PvP FE build (~45 food is pretty fast for PvP) whereas the 10-gate 2 gas build won't have enough minerals to expand safely, so it leads to tech builds. FWIW, if the two builds go head-to-head, the 1-gas build will have a lead on most maps, particularly on maps with open naturals.
|
On October 06 2011 02:53 NrGmonk wrote:
Whoever has more stalkers at almost any time in the matchup has map control.
I'm not sure that's true. Regular stalkers are more or less useless once about 3 immortals are out, and after 4 immortals, blink stalkers are only useful for harass. They have a speed advantage, so to that extent, they can be out on the map scouting and holding watchtowers, but they have to give way if the immortals want to move out. Blink stalkers can loop around for a counter to try to pin the immortal army in a defensive position, but that can be dealt with using good scouting and positioning.
Early stalkers 100% have map control. But in the mid-game, it's not so clear. It's a little like saying speedlings have map control against a 6-gate stalker/sentry ball. The faster speedlings can be in more places at once, but the 6-gate ball can still go wherever it wants.
|
On October 06 2011 03:14 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 02:53 NrGmonk wrote:
Whoever has more stalkers at almost any time in the matchup has map control.
I'm not sure that's true. Regular stalkers are more or less useless once about 3 immortals are out, and after 4 immortals, blink stalkers are only useful for harass. They have a speed advantage, so to that extent, they can be out on the map scouting and holding watchtowers, but they have to give way if the immortals want to move out. Blink stalkers can loop around for a counter to try to pin the immortal army in a defensive position, but that can be dealt with using good scouting and positioning. Early stalkers 100% have map control. But in the mid-game, it's not so clear. It's a little like saying speedlings have map control against a 6-gate stalker/sentry ball. The faster speedlings can be in more places at once, but the 6-gate ball can still go wherever it wants.
How does your build do against Stargate openings ? You don't really mention those in your guide ?
|
On October 06 2011 04:33 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 03:14 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 02:53 NrGmonk wrote:
Whoever has more stalkers at almost any time in the matchup has map control.
I'm not sure that's true. Regular stalkers are more or less useless once about 3 immortals are out, and after 4 immortals, blink stalkers are only useful for harass. They have a speed advantage, so to that extent, they can be out on the map scouting and holding watchtowers, but they have to give way if the immortals want to move out. Blink stalkers can loop around for a counter to try to pin the immortal army in a defensive position, but that can be dealt with using good scouting and positioning. Early stalkers 100% have map control. But in the mid-game, it's not so clear. It's a little like saying speedlings have map control against a 6-gate stalker/sentry ball. The faster speedlings can be in more places at once, but the 6-gate ball can still go wherever it wants. How does your build do against Stargate openings ? You don't really mention those in your guide ?
He mentions it in a post on the latest page.
The big downside is that phoenix openings are much better post-1.4 and phoenix openings own this opening pretty hard. It's still my best opening in PvP, and I think, on balance, its place in the metagame has improved since I first posted the guide.
|
Oops, missed that Thx for answer.
|
Are any of these builds any different with the patch?
I think you mean "formerly" not "formally"
|
in fact, the diffrent is that 4 Gate doesnt work anymore 
Maybe on Taldarim and this beach map, but not more ;=)
|
On October 06 2011 04:48 DarkQ wrote:in fact, the diffrent is that 4 Gate doesnt work anymore Maybe on Taldarim and this beach map, but not more ;=)
This is a REALLY common misconception. 4gate is alive and well. It is now one option in a number of valid options that are based on what you see your opponent do. If you see him skip a Zealot without a quick 2nd gate, that basically cues me to 4 gate. Most builds count on 1 Sentry to generate enough time to warp in another, but frankly, with an aggressive pylon and quick Zealot-Stalker, it's very much alive.
|
On October 06 2011 04:59 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 04:48 DarkQ wrote:in fact, the diffrent is that 4 Gate doesnt work anymore Maybe on Taldarim and this beach map, but not more ;=) This is a REALLY common misconception. 4gate is alive and well. It is now one option in a number of valid options that are based on what you see your opponent do. If you see him skip a Zealot without a quick 2nd gate, that basically cues me to 4 gate. Most builds count on 1 Sentry to generate enough time to warp in another, but frankly, with an aggressive pylon and quick Zealot-Stalker, it's very much alive.
Yeah I'm actually seeing 4 gates more now than I did in the previous patch, which is kind of counter intuitive but works because players who no longer try to 4 gate tend to be more greedy than before the patch. I've been trying a three stalker robo into eventual blink build but I'm still having difficulty denying the probe from getting into my base and throwing up pylons, and that negates all the usefulness of a sentry.
Also you're welcome Geiko.
|
On October 06 2011 02:35 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 02:14 Sleight wrote:On October 06 2011 01:22 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 01:15 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:53 kcdc wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Geiko wrote:On October 06 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:My single gas immortal build works. Some people don't like it because it doesn't have enough gas for a colossus transition, but the key is transitioning instead to charge (and then archons if you need to break forcefields) since you're going zealot-heavy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430 I'd love to try this I'm working on my 4 gate timing (5:32 warped in best time ! ^^) so I'm willing to 4gate anyone who wants to see how this build does. You on NA? (Also, my build is designed against 12 or 13 gate. If opponent 10 gates, you can't go straight to robo safely) Nah I'm on EU But I'm talking about 12 gate 4gate not 10 gate. Best times I could manage (finished warping in) were -5:31 with 1 CB on nexus -5:39 with 2 CB on nexus Is your immortal out in time with your build ? Best I've done is 5z/1s/1 immo at ~5:50. So maybe. It depends where your pylon is and if you lose units trying to warp your first round in my base. I put my pylons and buildings at my nexus so that I don't have anything up near the ramp to kill. So you have to get up my ramp and back to my nexus before you can start shooting stuff. I don't have problems with 4 gate unless I screw up, but 5:31 is faster than I've seen since the WG nerf. Opening 10pylon 10gate and going Stalker-Zealot-Robo-Gate-Zealot let's you get 2 Zealots, 1 stalker, and an Immortal by 5:30, and you add on 2 stalkers by 5:40 from Warpgates and 1 sentry 1 zealot by 6:10, obviously. Since you open 10 gate into Chrono'd Stalker you can deny proxy pylons unless they go 1 Z 2 Stalkers before warpgate finishes. The reason you warp in a 1 Z 1 Sentry with your 2nd round is that while 3 Stalkers 2 Zealots and 1 Immortal beats 1 Z 5 Stalkers with 1-2 units lost, 3 Stalkers, 4 Zealots, 1 Immortal loses to 4-5 Z 5 Stalker which is their 2nd rnd of warp ins, so you need the sentry to cut in half at ramp. You can also open 9pylon 11 gate 11 gas, or 9 Pylon 12gate 13 gate and get to this same point. The problem is each time you delay your Zealot gives 4 gate more time to get Zealot Stalker Probe out against your lone Stalker. In all cases, you can deny scouting and get a Robo right around 3:55, looking like a 10gate 4gate, and still get a smooth immortal out. You will, however, not be able to afford a 2nd immortal to stop a 4gate, but I don't think that's needed. My philosophy in PvP is that, generally speaking, building sentries or stalkers puts you behind. There are some exceptions (if your opponent has flying units, you need stalkers), but for the most part, zealots are the strongest unit in PvP, and immortals keep zealots safe from stalker kiting. So if you give me a choice between two relatively safe builds where one has 3 stalkers and a sentry and the other has only zealot+immortal+1 stalker, I'll take the latter. I haven't run into anyone that plays PvP like I do tho, so maybe I'm doing something completely wrong. But at the high masters/low GM level, my style works very well.
I saw you play on some dudes stream, you really like your immortals with archons/zealots.
No one got a replay of the 3 stalker rush build?
|
I still think you got the 3 stalker builds wrong :/
Here is my take on the traditional 3 Stalker rush:
3 Stalker rush
I can't even find a current replay of this build
Difficulty of execution: 8/10
Probes at 5:45: 20-25
Required number of sentries: 0
2nd gas timing: Variable
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: No
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 2/10
I do this one pretty often, because I like to 4 Gate people lately, as people just have poor builds as of late that die easily. The reason I like to do this one is because people commonly gas steal and think they're king of the world, then you just 4 Gate them. Although a gas steal does hurt slightly in the event that you don't want to 4 Gate, and as such it will slightly delay your vespene income, though the trade should be about even in terms of resource cost (not necessarily in information cost).
Then there's the modern 3 Stalker rush that I also run very often. Here is my take:
2 Gas into 3 stalker Rush
Replay
Difficulty of execution: 9/10 - 7/10
Probes at 5:45: 24+
Required number of sentries: 0-1
2nd gas timing: As second Gate goes down.
Wall?: No
Does it look like an offensive 4 gate?: No
How much does a gas steal hurt?: 0/10
Excess gas: Variable
The reason you don't actually require a Sentry, is because you can hold with just a Stalker ball if you keep the opponent's Stalker count low, assuming you defensively 3 Gate with a delayed 4th Gate. I've seen White-Ra do this multiple times, I've done it multiple times, and I've seen Hwangsin do something similar multiple times. However if you do get a Sentry, you can hold easier so the difficulty goes down a bit to 7. The rest of the fields are pretty variable, as the opening is very versatile - gas steal doesn't even do anything since you haven't commit by then. You can also skip your Sentry and get a fast tech off of 2 Gates if you feel safe, and you can defensively 3 Gate + Tech, or even defensively 4 Gate.
|
That last thing is the opener in your twilight PvP, right Cecil?
|
On October 06 2011 05:20 Indrium wrote:
That last thing is the opener in your twilight PvP, right Cecil?
Yeah actually, though the first and second one are super similar. Also you can get zealot/sentry instead of 4th/5th stalker.
|
I can vouch for the build being effective but super hard then. Took it off the guide and played around with it at one point.
Hmm the zealot sentry thing is interesting. Might try that.
|
On October 06 2011 04:59 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 04:48 DarkQ wrote:in fact, the diffrent is that 4 Gate doesnt work anymore Maybe on Taldarim and this beach map, but not more ;=) This is a REALLY common misconception. 4gate is alive and well. It is now one option in a number of valid options that are based on what you see your opponent do. If you see him skip a Zealot without a quick 2nd gate, that basically cues me to 4 gate. Most builds count on 1 Sentry to generate enough time to warp in another, but frankly, with an aggressive pylon and quick Zealot-Stalker, it's very much alive.
4gate absolutely still works. I've had people skip zealot, spend more chrono than me AND gas steal me while taking their own. That's absolutely not safe and when I get called a noob afterwards for exploiting his build, I chuckle to myself and enjoy the ladder points. People don't realize that the most aggressive version of 4gate(put 2 pylons on low ground, or my goto now if possible 1 low 1 high) actually didn't change very much. Without going for fast 3 stalkers, it's difficult at best to snipe the probe before 2 pylons go up on low ground if you skipped zealot, and a fast sentry will be forced to pop the ff or die to zealot+stalker while the game ending pylon goes up on the high ground.
But overall the matchup has finally got room to develop. It might still be a matchup where expanding before 50 is paramount to suicide, but it's growing and for the first time since people started 4gating pvp, I'm actually having macro PvP games.
|
ok think im starting to get the hang of the MC defensive 3gate
I've always had a problem though transitioning afterwards....
Assume that I stop the 4 gate attack with 3 gates, I immediately drop my robo at 6mins - but they camp outside my base with superior unit count (since they got 4gates), then they expand behind the contain (at like 6:45ish). Meanwhile I wait to get my observer to confirm what he is doing, and build up more units to break the contain but I feel like im behind.
Based on this, what is the best transition after stopping 4gate and them expanding behind it?
|
United States8476 Posts
On October 20 2011 15:03 bankai wrote:ok think im starting to get the hang of the MC defensive 3gate I've always had a problem though transitioning afterwards.... Assume that I stop the 4 gate attack with 3 gates, I immediately drop my robo at 6mins - but they camp outside my base with superior unit count (since they got 4gates), then they expand behind the contain (at like 6:45ish). Meanwhile I wait to get my observer to confirm what he is doing, and build up more units to break the contain but I feel like im behind. Based on this, what is the best transition after stopping 4gate and them expanding behind it?
You should probably have posted this in the MC defensive 3 gate thread =P.
Generally in this situation, you should have a probe or pylon outside your base so you can scout his base to see if he expands. If he tries to contain you, he won't have units to guard his base from scouts.
Anyways, if they camp your ramp with a sentry and expand behind it, the best transition is blink. At worst for them, you will be able to surprise them and kill their units below the ramp. Even if they back off in time, you will be able to deny his expansion.
Your other options include getting a warp prism to ferry units below your ramp or go for a collosi push. Many times, if your opponent goes for an expansion after a failed 4 gate, his econ won't be good enough when you finally push.
That being said, blink and robo are the only two transitions you should do after your opponent fails a 4 gate. They are the 2 most solid builds and should most likely win if you are ahead. On the other hand, you can potentially throw away a lead with dt or pheonix followups.
|
On October 20 2011 16:46 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 15:03 bankai wrote:ok think im starting to get the hang of the MC defensive 3gate I've always had a problem though transitioning afterwards.... Assume that I stop the 4 gate attack with 3 gates, I immediately drop my robo at 6mins - but they camp outside my base with superior unit count (since they got 4gates), then they expand behind the contain (at like 6:45ish). Meanwhile I wait to get my observer to confirm what he is doing, and build up more units to break the contain but I feel like im behind. Based on this, what is the best transition after stopping 4gate and them expanding behind it? You should probably have posted this in the MC defensive 3 gate thread =P. Generally in this situation, you should have a probe or pylon outside your base so you can scout his base to see if he expands. If he tries to contain you, he won't have units to guard his base from scouts. Anyways, if they camp your ramp with a sentry and expand behind it, the best transition is blink. At worst for them, you will be able to surprise them and kill their units below the ramp. Even if they back off in time, you will be able to deny his expansion. Your other options include getting a warp prism to ferry units below your ramp or go for a collosi push. Many times, if your opponent goes for an expansion after a failed 4 gate, his econ won't be good enough when you finally push. That being said, blink and robo are the only two transitions you should do after your opponent fails a 4 gate. They are the 2 most solid builds and should most likely win if you are ahead. On the other hand, you can potentially throw away a lead with dt or pheonix followups.
Thanks a lot for the good advice
Yeah sorry, was thinking about which thread this would belong in...happy to just copy/paste the post into the other one so other ppl can see this discussion.
Yes I was thinking that blink would be a solid transition and then I would expand behind that myself instead. But based on your PvP Robo Twilight guide, I took the advice that I should drop the robo so I can get an observer and confirm what they are doing (I dont trust myself making scouting reads based on his unit comp yet ) so I always drop a robo as soon as I am safe from 4gate. So I felt that after I drop my robo, its too late to get blink because by the time it finishes, his expansion would have paid off already??
Cool idea though with the warp prism...theres no gas requirement, and if he contains, maybe i can backstab his base with a zealot drop??
|
So what is the sense of wall-in in PvP???
I feel like until you get colo+range, it is useless since stalker + obs can just take your gate for free if not cybercore...
|
United States8476 Posts
On October 21 2011 07:39 Corsica wrote:
So what is the sense of wall-in in PvP???
I feel like until you get colo+range, it is useless since stalker + obs can just take your gate for free if not cybercore...
In the last patch, walls served a bigger purpose. It restricted warpins on your ramp and above the ramp. It also forced opposing zealots to walk up your ramp single file. However, with the new patch, I'm not sure if walls serve a big purpose anymore.
I will eventually update this thread once the PvP metagame stabilizes
|
My personal favorite is the 3gate stalker rush but sometimes i will not find the probe or i lack on the side of scouting and i still get four gates, ugh pvp can be so upsetting sometimes.
|
On October 06 2011 05:37 Indrium wrote:
Hmm the zealot sentry thing is interesting. Might try that.
The problem with going zealot sentry is if they come straight into your base with their zealot and stalker you either have to burn you forcefield before they even have warp gate up, or you do no have the fire power win the fight. This can let them simply put a pylon at the top of your ramp instead of the bottom. My experience is you will loose to a very aggressive player.
|
Anyone else figured out that the new units in hots won't change 4 gate one bit )
|
You're probably all going to laugh, but for the '2 Gas into 3 stalker rush with 2 sentries' I should be watching Stork right? I was a little thrown off because MC wins but Stork is the one who gets 3 stalkers and 2 sentries. Great thread monk, you have so many of them!
|
United States8476 Posts
On January 14 2012 06:57 Zawmb wrote:
You're probably all going to laugh, but for the '2 Gas into 3 stalker rush with 2 sentries' I should be watching Stork right? I was a little thrown off because MC wins but Stork is the one who gets 3 stalkers and 2 sentries. Great thread monk, you have so many of them!
Yes, stork is TT1.
I also edited the OP a lot for it to be more current.
|
|
|
I´m sorry to bump this but i have a question.
In a PvP i do a 3 stalker rush and my opponent steals me a gas geyser, what should I do next?
|
On December 14 2012 22:43 kaNt- wrote:
I´m sorry to bump this but i have a question.
In a PvP i do a 3 stalker rush and my opponent steals me a gas geyser, what should I do next?
Don't let yourself get gas stolen.
Either put a probe to block or get an earlier gas in your build if you suspect he will try this.
If your gas is stolen, you can either chrono out a zealot and pull one or two probes to kill the geyser,or you can go for a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate with the same 5:45 timing, or you can go for a fake 4 gate, 1 gate FE.
|
I still wonder if 3 stalker rush is the best way to deny a 4 gate, isn´t the 2 gate robo more effective? I still can´t find my bread and butter opening in PvP (safe against 4 gate).
Btw I´m top platinum level.
|
On December 14 2012 23:00 kaNt- wrote:
I still wonder if 3 stalker rush is the best way to deny a 4 gate, isn´t the 2 gate robo more effective? I still can´t find my bread and butter opening in PvP (safe against 4 gate).
Btw I´m top platinum level.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117
All these are 1 gate tech builds that are safe against 4 gate nowadays.
Plenty of builds also use the zealot sentry zealot sentry opening to be safe (HerO Stargate opener for example)
|
Ive been seen alot of high levels player not probe scout in pvp and just blind 3 stalker rush in pvp. Is this safe vs 4 gate?
|
Italy12246 Posts
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
