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Hi all,
So, pre-replay days you had folks like Tillerman and Maynard. Not long into SC, Grrr... started to take over. You had Elky and some Koreans starting to rise, too.
Boxer took the game over, with other greats like YellOw.
Some others started to gain prominence into Boxer's reign - xellos, reach, etc.
Nada started to go on a heater, and his macro was changing the game. Guys like iloveoov were also on fire during Nada's reign.
The Bisu/Jaedong/Flash/Stork's of the world were after my time, some of them I was a little familiar with, but they hadn't reached their prime.
I know little about their time period (I have pieced together though that sometime around 2008 is when the map style started to get really different sometimes - the very wide ramps, etc. I guess using that map creation hacked client where you can create features or place things where they shouldn't be, to use map design for creativity but also to iron out imbalances; I still never got fully out of my Lost Temple phase, myself) in the Kespa-era, but I understand Bisu/Jaedong/Flash were amazing, and Flash is widely considered the best ever. It's hard for me not to say Boxer 1, Nada 2, but, I can't fairly judge anyone after Nada's prime.
So, I take it broodwar just kind of continued on, as it had been, OSL/MSL type tournies, koreans dominating, etc. That era is fog of war for me, but when SC2 came out and beyond, is just a blackout. So, SC 2 gets released, I am guessing some players who were active in BW - pro, strong foriegner, or casual, switched to SC2?
Did the BW pro scene change? Disappear, etc?
Then Kespa crumbled near this time frame, is my impression. Match-fixing scandal, I think. I've been trying hard to get a good gauge on this type of info and not just post asking, but it's been hard to piece everything together.
Now, let's skip to present for a moment. I've never played SC2, and had never seen it. I just very recently saw some games and got a bit of a feel for it. It was a big surprise to me to see that some of the very top players, or arguably best (clem, serral, for example) are foriegners, much less even just having foriegn pros at all. The 12 workers, revealed fog of war style map, 2-player start positions, and a ton of automated things like workers rallying directly to minerals, and being able to hotkey multiple production buildings at once, and all of those types of things took me by surprise. It also really shocked me that it was still receiving balance patches, and that the community argued about balance. I recall balance complaints about BW being substantially less common, and the last balance patch was what, 2001?
Anyway, despite having not seen a BW game for about 5 years when SC2 came out, I was instinctively opposed to the game being made at all. It felt bad to me, because BW already seemed like such a high quality game, and that still was being played professionally, and had a big following. It seemed so unnecessary. In retrospect, I'm less stubborn. But I was pleasantly surprised to see that SC2 is still around, and still has an active pro scene. I'm under the impression that the game is at it's current skill/level of play peak, but the scale and frequency of pro tournies, and player count is no longer at it's prime. The lingo surprised me, too - bonjwa was a new term for me that hadn't been around. And gosu, hasu, chobo, "foriegner" for non-korean, etc. seem vastly less prevalent.
More pleasantly surprising to me was to find out that now only is BW still being played, but it has a bigger player base than SC2. I think that it is highly concentrated within the Korean demographic, though?
Anyway, when I see people talk about BW, I often see the post-Kespa era completely excluded. Or, there is this frequent distinction between kespa-era and post-kespa.
So here is what I am most curious about. Where is BW at, on the pro level? I see that there is an annual ASL, I take it that this is the equivalent now of OnGameNet Star League and such. I think Afreeca TV that it airs on, is a streaming channel, not cable?
It also looks like there is a gap between the OSL/MSL days, and when ASL started, by a good 4 or so years?
Was there a dark age of BW (after kespa, until ASL), or did it continually have a big scene?
I know almost nothing about e-sports, I just knew WCG had other games along with broodwar, and that broodwar's scene was sort of the origin of e-sports. This is why it surprises me when I hear some people refer to 2006-2010-ish as kinda the golden era of BW, or when it was it's biggest. For a game that was sooo popular, and so good, and even had massive live audiences, tens of thousands, to watch 2 guys play a computer game in space suits lol, and it was popular on tv, and via VODs around the world; it seems crazy to think it got even bigger. Did it really, or is part of that, more like, the Bisu/Jaedong/Flash era was so amazing skill wise, that it built on and improved from the garmito's, chojja's, foru's, etc. of the world.
Oh, did anyone surpass Mondragon as best forigner? Did any ever make it into the pro ranks like in the Elky days, or even close? I guess an astrix for androide, hah, we didn't get to see him enough. And I think a chinese player or 2, as well. (EDIT: PJ was the main chinese player I was thinking of)
Finally, so, post-Kespa. What's the deal? Is the game more grass roots than before, or just as big? I see these new (or post-kespa) top players like Light, Soma, and Snow. I'm wondering, is this the highest level of play BW has ever seen, right now? Or has it been out SO long, that despite evolution over time, etc. there are players from the past who were so good, and the game was figured out for so long, that they were better then, than the best players now?
I'm sure eras can be hard to compare in some cases, and if we're talking about greatest versus best. Also, is the game just different? Like, do you still have the vast majority of pros almost exclusively play LAN games against their pro team mates in their pro house, and then show up to the offline tournies? I get the feeling that stuff might be different now. And if so, maybe people are practising less, not obligated to do so, etc. So maybe towards the end of the Kespa era was the skill peak, due to more polish, practice, etc?
I caught a few artosis casts from very recent (it was very cool to see he is still around, and tasteless, too; is Day still around, tasteless' brother? shouts to both of them) and the maps were sooo different, and the play style was sooo different. I did see snow's reaver micro, and wtf. my benchmark for reaver micro was reach. It's safe to say that snow elevated it... And I can't imagine it was elevated to that level or beyond during the kespa era - but that's just one specific metric. Seeing dark archons actually being used was interesting, and seeing tons of queens was also very interesting. A lot less firebat use.
It's funny, because in 2005, a lot of people thought bw had been largely 'figured out'. It makes sense that the meta-game continues to evolve and change. I'm sure in some ways, in terms of meta-game optimization, some newer players could beat a top pro in a time machine from the past, just by having a broader awareness of many factors. Basically, is the highest level of BW now, superior to BW at all other eras? Was there a time period post-kespa, before now, that it was higher? Was the Kespa Flash era the highest level ever?
And were the best mechanical players in the past, but now the game has just continued to be figured out and optimized sooo much, that builds and strats are alone making the present era the highest level?
Sorry for the novel, I'm hoping a few posters can pitch in just a little bit of insight, perspective, or opinion, about any of the things I touched on.
Murph 
EDIT: I specify very abbreviated, because I am not trying to take up a ton of someone's time. If someone wants to share more, the more the merrier, I'll be more than happy to read anything anyone has to share. Thanks fellas.
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Well that s a lot of points lol but i ll try a few:
After Mondragon, we had idra (and then ret) go to korea to train in the pro houses. They got really good, NonY made it to the final of the courage tournament there and Draco was also fairly solid.
In the foreign scene, sc2 had a big impact but a lot of clan leagues still endured (icccl, and bwcl. Bwcl is still running). A lot of people played both games.
For bw and sc2z blizzard somewhat flexed their muscle and their IP ownership to push kespa to sc2. We got the abomination of the hybrid sc2/bw proleague then full switch to sc2 then kespa died and the concept of team house with it.
During that era, bw was still very popular in korea but the main source of revenue slowly went to streaming and donations. There was the sonic starleague (SSL).
On the foreign side of things, a lot of the old community channels (and TL in someway) gave way to discord. That s where most of it still is. The community is still quite active which is great to see, and we do get a steady influx of newcomers or returnees (like yourself). Check out the CPL.
For the level of now vs then it s subjective. Players have said that now information flows more between all players so builds are more refined and the meta evolves more than in prohouse where it was more segregated per team. Overall i d say the level is higher but you see fewer of those crazy snipe builds you had in proleague.
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I am of the belief that the play level at the highest level actually got higher.
There are constantly things being figured out, Protoss players are tucking their forges vs. Zergs, Zergs are stacking lurkers under their overlords, Terrans are using backshot valk micro vs. Zergs, etc.
Soulkey really solved SK Terran, so Kespa Flash pre mech transition meta would probably lose to peak Soulkey
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Overall the level of play is higher because of better game knowledge, but in term of mech, speed, and multitasking that is not the case. And it's not uniform, some match-up especially mirror matches did not change much. Fantasy recently admitted that while he is better now at tvz and tvp, he would not beat his former self in tvt, and he said it quite confidently.
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Netherlands5218 Posts
Hmmm. No, I can't.
+ Show Spoiler [Yes, there was a dark age] +
The dark age was right after SC2 and the matchfixing scandal in which Savior and many many other progamers were caught in. If it wasn't for some very fine individuals on the staff team and a handful of renowned TL members still going out their way to cover BW, I don't think the BW section would have survived on TL. I'm proud of all those guys including myself that TL is still THE hub for BW nowadays. Although... Yes, Discord and Twitch chat took a lot of traffic away from TL, and LR pretty much died as a result of stream chats becoming more popular. Kinda like how battle reports died when replays became a thing.
+ Show Spoiler [Surprise, the big 2 made their return] +
Tastosis went full SC2 soon after its release and dropped BW like a brick. They came back only when SC2 was in hard decline and a future in casting profesionally was starting to look dire. They casted KSL, then later also picked up ASL via their infamous 10k patreon. Good job on them, but as someone who stuck with BW during their absence it was so fucking painful to listen to them cast it, especially having been a fan of them before they dropped BW. They were unbelievable bad at casting BW. They had no clue of what was going on for the longest time, and it was obvious they didn't do any of their homework to cover like a 10 year gap of BW history, both on players and meta, nor imo paid any respect to those that did provide cover and care of BW since all that time. That all doesn't really matter, because they have their complete own crazy fan base that probably made up >80% of that infamous patreon. If you're wondering what I consider a crazy fan base, just hop into Artosis' streams to find out.
While they did bring a large following back to BW, they also effectively flushed out (imo better) up-and-coming competition, simply because they're more known. I like to use the analogy of 2 big fat fish coming back to the (BW) pound and just eating and flushing out the small fish (caster competition). Yeah, I'm still a bit salty about that, and while their casts have become better, if you ask me it's still mediocre now, but luckily the official Korean streams are still as exciting as ever.
You can even watch your favorite Korean pros stream live ASL if that's of your fancy, some of them are more popular than the official live stream.
+ Show Spoiler [Great BW shows] +Oldboy with Nal_rA was the best fucking thing ever (just before the matching fixing scandal and BW's dark age started). Eventhough Sonic (see SSL) was a crook, I don't think Korean BW would have survived the dark age at all. Both KSL and ASL (and all of us BW fans) benefitted from his efforts. Before Sonic was caught, he was airing a show in similar fashion to Oldboy, starring a team of "amateurs" training to become pros which included  Sharp.
+ Show Spoiler [Some other shit you may have missed] +-  Larva getting his nickname footstargamer. - Kim Carrier was forced to retire due to some porn-controversy, I think it was because he used his fame as a BW caster to promote his porn related work. - The coingate scandal: Basically pump and dump shenanigans involving several pros, including "clean pros" like  Bisu and Flash. KCM tried his best to use his leverage to ban Flash from BW just like Savior was banned and I believe also how he tried to ban players who played with Savior in Chinese tournaments. Yeah, during the early dark ages, Savior, Sea, Movie and some others played in quite a few Chinese tournaments to make easy extra money. Flash was supposedly one of the masterminds in a big pump and dump and took forever to apologize, unlike other players. He ultimately did after he first threw his mom in front the bus, and now it looks like he is just clear enough of controversy that he can enter ASL again for the upcoming season. Flash has mentioned he will only enter if he's confident he can win it all. Basically he's afraid it will hurt his reputation if he can't get a gold. He simply refuses to enter if he can't. - Fantasy came back randomly to cash in big by winning a Saudi hosted BW tournament while Jaedong struggled to regain his Tyrant form ever since he came back. - Soulkey lost all his savings by getting scammed some years ago, but that (and Flash's absence cuz of military service and the coingate scandal) motivated him to reach his best form ever and win ASL back-to-back 4 times over. I could go on and on, but I care way too much about details to give abbreviated versions.
TL;DR:
A lot of BW players, teams, casters, tournament hosters are riddled with bad omen.
This is sadly also true for foreign BW... lmao
Do yourself a favor and stay away from RaPiD & Rus_Brain + Show Spoiler +
Despite so much drama, properly hosted BW tournaments are still LOTS of fun.
I can't wait for next ASL.
+ Show Spoiler [Why BW is alive on TL] +Because of these guys, including more, contributing:
BigFan, BLinD-RawR , nevake, Freakling, snipealot, Stratos, BurnedToast, Sayle, Qikz, Shamtoo, FlaShFTW, BisuDagger, v1, Simplistik, Nyoken and co-casters, 2PAC, Elegant, Kwark, ZZZero and co (BSL), TMNT, Tec27 and co (ShieldBattery), Scan, GTR, Nazgul, Airneach and co (IPSL), everyone updating LP with results.
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On February 01 2026 10:43 Murph wrote:
Finally, so, post-Kespa. What's the deal? Is the game more grass roots than before, or just as big? I see these new (or post-kespa) top players like Light, Soma, and Snow. I'm wondering, is this the highest level of play BW has ever seen, right now? Or has it been out SO long, that despite evolution over time, etc. there are players from the past who were so good, and the game was figured out for so long, that they were better then, than the best players now?
I'm sure eras can be hard to compare in some cases, and if we're talking about greatest versus best. Also, is the game just different? Like, do you still have the vast majority of pros almost exclusively play LAN games against their pro team mates in their pro house, and then show up to the offline tournies? I get the feeling that stuff might be different now. And if so, maybe people are practising less, not obligated to do so, etc. So maybe towards the end of the Kespa era was the skill peak, due to more polish, practice, etc?
It's funny, because in 2005, a lot of people thought bw had been largely 'figured out'. It makes sense that the meta-game continues to evolve and change. I'm sure in some ways, in terms of meta-game optimization, some newer players could beat a top pro in a time machine from the past, just by having a broader awareness of many factors. Basically, is the highest level of BW now, superior to BW at all other eras? Was there a time period post-kespa, before now, that it was higher? Was the Kespa Flash era the highest level ever?
And were the best mechanical players in the past, but now the game has just continued to be figured out and optimized sooo much, that builds and strats are alone making the present era the highest level?
only answering the above paragraphs.
the game is more grass roots than before, yes. just because its surviving community is larger than its successor unfortunately doesnt mean bw is still just as big. in the peak of bw, korean teams had corporate sponsorship, dedicated team houses, a proper league with heavy sponsorship broadcast on 2 dedicated tv channels and 2 major individual tournaments each operated by different organisers. now its just soop (afreeca) carrying the remnants of the bw scene on its back alone. we get roughly 3? tournaments a year all hosted by soop (afreeca) and no such thing as pro teams or team houses. now its all ex pros just streaming individually and playing on ladder or in artificially created "proleagues", which is basically just a form of joint streaming content between the ex pros in order to replicate what they can of the old proleague.
despite this, the meta has continued to evolve and the ex pros now are better than they used to be in their actual progaming days, in the sense that their understanding of the game is far superior. years of streaming with each other has allowed for much more shared research and knowledge transfer between players leading to many ex pros now claiming that if they went back in time they would beat their old selves. unfortunately age has caught up with people and so on the physical side of the game, the quality has gotten worse. mechanical mistakes are more common and quite often we see ex pros fail to execute their game plan properly because their fingers cant keep up. the days where players like jaedong and bisu (both players being examples of players that dominated their opponent through sheer mechanical ability) beat opponents through brute force are a thing of the past. with that mechanical edge gone in a lot of players the skill level between the last generation of pros has become more standardised, with the exception of flash. light and snow are examples of players that were solid in the last generation of kespa, but have grown (or the top players regressed) into becoming top players in the current crop. soma is the only true new face in the post kespa era.
basically your last sentence in the quoted post is indeed correct.
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amazing post Peeano !!  
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I implore anyone to go and watch, like, a random day of 2008 Proleague games, and compare it to a random day of todays Proleague.
It should be incredibly obvious that the mechanics aspect did not get worse but improved A LOT - macro/micro/multitask, all of it.
IMO progamers have a somewhat idealized view of their past selves. Also many have fucked up wrists from years of grinding so of course it feels worse for them now. But it doesn't mean that they were using their extra "raw apm" back then in any efficient manner which translated to skill.
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With the support of the Afreeca/SOOP website and the rapid development of live streaming, StarCraft has once again flourished in South Korea. A large number of fans have provided sponsorship, a large number of former professional players have returned, and a large number of new players (especially female streamers/players) have joined in. Since 2021, the emergence of Daily Proleagues, Starcraft Universitys and StarCraft Univ. League has marked that South Korea's StarCraft has entered a new stage of development characterized by by streamers, communities and entertainment.
Meanwhile, traditional events such as ASL, and KCM have received more attention and achieved more sustainable development.
This is what I wrote in poor English. I sincerely invite everyone to make corrections, additions and improvements.
 Portal:Progaming
Leagues
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On February 02 2026 21:09 Kraekkling wrote:
I implore anyone to go and watch, like, a random day of 2008 Proleague games, and compare it to a random day of todays Proleague.
It should be incredibly obvious that the mechanics aspect did not get worse but improved A LOT - macro/micro/multitask, all of it.
IMO progamers have a somewhat idealized view of their past selves. Also many have fucked up wrists from years of grinding so of course it feels worse for them now. But it doesn't mean that they were using their extra "raw apm" back then in any efficient manner which translated to skill.
anyone who thinks that their mechanics got better is deluding themselves. them getting smarter isnt the same as their mechanics getting better. you dont even have to ask pros (which has been done, and every single one of them say their mechanics have gotten worse), but just look at literally any gamer anywhere that has played at a high level for a long period of time. no ones mechanics get better with age. mouse precision, keyboard precision, reflexes all get worse slightly and that minute difference is all it takes at the highest levels.
the only gamers that could claim their mechanics got better with age are people who were low skill to begin with and their skill increased at a faster rate than their mechanics could deteriorate.
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After being away from the game for over 25 years this has been an awesome thread to read. @Murph thanks for typing that up, really enjoyed it. @Peeano brilliant response. Really enjoying catching up 🤙
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On February 02 2026 21:09 Kraekkling wrote:
I implore anyone to go and watch, like, a random day of 2008 Proleague games, and compare it to a random day of todays Proleague.
It should be incredibly obvious that the mechanics aspect did not get worse but improved A LOT - macro/micro/multitask, all of it.
IMO progamers have a somewhat idealized view of their past selves. Also many have fucked up wrists from years of grinding so of course it feels worse for them now. But it doesn't mean that they were using their extra "raw apm" back then in any efficient manner which translated to skill.
I think it's difficult to really evaluate mech, speed, multitasking by watching tv proleague. Imo you really need to analyze replays. I will always point out to the same games which shows easily the difference between kespa era and present day. Check these 2 Jaedong games on Circuit Breaker vs Bisu from that famous pro house rep pack and see for yourself, especially the most terrifying is the mineral spending rate which is near constant up to 20 minutes on 5 bases. Hell, even JD said that peak mech year was Lecaf Oz Jaedong. But this topic has been addressed plenty of time, it becomes redundant. So from my part that's the last coin I insert.
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United States10298 Posts
On February 02 2026 21:09 Kraekkling wrote:
I implore anyone to go and watch, like, a random day of 2008 Proleague games, and compare it to a random day of todays Proleague.
It should be incredibly obvious that the mechanics aspect did not get worse but improved A LOT - macro/micro/multitask, all of it.
IMO progamers have a somewhat idealized view of their past selves. Also many have fucked up wrists from years of grinding so of course it feels worse for them now. But it doesn't mean that they were using their extra "raw apm" back then in any efficient manner which translated to skill.
Raw APM and macro wise, definitely much better back in the day.
As it relates to micro and smaller micro tricks, definitely better today because of refinement and discovering new movements/techniques. Snow's reaver micro is obviously class today whereas reaver micro back in the day would look amateur compared to how it is now. Unit interactions are a lot more solved too.
I mean, FlaSh said it best, if he were to play his 2000-2010 peak self, he would smash the past him based on meta knowledge alone. Then after a week or two, past FlaSh would learn the meta and steamroll current FlaSh. So yeah, if knowledge is equivalent, then the mechanical beasts of peak KeSPA would 100% dominate the current crop of players.
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"What if we put someones mind at 30-years-old with all his experience in his 16-years-old-body" is a meaningless thought experiment. Obviously there are things that deteriorate as someone ages, such as reflexes, I'm not arguing against this at all. Whatever it was that deteriorated since then, it was more than compensated by improvements in efficiency. If you click 20% slower but 30% more efficient, you still play better. Are modern players more efficient with their apm? Probably by a lot.
Now, would one say that the mechanics got worse because someone clicks 20% slower? Maybe, I don't know, it just seems like meaningless arguing at that point. Whatever we can quantify as expression of skill in the game, such as micro and macro, improved compared to back then.
please watch a few games from this era - those without bisu/jd/flash - and see for yourself. there's also some fpview in those VODs.
old VODs on nevake
[...] macro wise, definitely much better back in the day.
how so?
think of any conceivable supply/timing/tech benchmark and go compare old games with modern games. anything that can be measured and quantified is much more tight in modern games. macro cycles in modern games are not constrained by APM but by resource income.
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Assem was also a foreign pro Terran in Korea. Or was he a training partner? I can't remember. I didn't really see any updates from him while he was there.
Draco, Idea, Nony and ret were already mentioned.
Mondragon is a legend of foreign scene, but I don't think any foreign had the success in Korean pro scene like Elky and Grrr had
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51536 Posts
assem was pro and played numerous games in proleague - he is the only foreigner to win courage as well
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On February 03 2026 13:02 GTR wrote:
assem was pro and played numerous games in proleague - he is the only foreigner to win courage as well
Thank you. I didn't watch proleague back then. I watched only individual leagues. Which team did he represent?
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Hey. I used AI to summarize your questions cause your post hurts my brain. it's cool you're interested though.
My opinions:
What happened to the BW pro scene after SC2 released—did it decline, disappear, or transform?
Transform, hard to say it could be attributed to SC2 though but more to the rise in prominence of streaming, which has had a tremendously positive impact on both the players and viewers.
Was there a “dark age” for BW between the end of KeSPA and the start of ASL?
Yes but again, mostly because streaming has had such a powerful impact.
Why is BW’s post-KeSPA era often excluded from discussions of BW history?
Don't know. Game is just more dead than it was before SC2 for... reasons.
4. How does ASL compare to OSL/MSL in scale, prestige, and competitiveness?
I dunno, same as like the way Fortnite compares to Counter-Strike 1.6 or Quake 3 Arena. It just doesn't. Maybe not as extreme but you get the point. It was a different time.
5. Is BW now more grassroots than during KeSPA, or still comparable in size?
Outside Korea I feel the game has always really been grassroots.
6. Did the match-fixing scandal directly cause KeSPA’s collapse?
No I don't think so but I could be wrong. It had a huge impact for sure but personally I think people blow it out of proportion. I am biased and I liked Savior and believe the bw scene would have been better off if he had been penalised but not perma banned. Sad state of affairs really.
7. Is the current BW era the highest level of play ever, overall?
Yes
8. Was peak Flash-era BW mechanically and strategically superior due to heavier practice and team houses?
Mechanically, yes.
9. Are modern players stronger mainly because of meta optimization and strategic knowledge?
Yes and no
10. Could modern BW pros beat past legends purely due to evolved understanding?
Yes
11. Did any foreign players surpass Mondragon or reach true pro-level success post-KeSPA?
Yeah probably
12. How do modern stars (Light, Soma, Snow) compare historically to KeSPA-era greats?
I'm pretty sure both Light and Snow are from the old era? I could be wrong but I remember Light being a 2v2 player? Everyone gets superseded eventually.
13. How and why did SC2 become balanced around foreigners dominating at the top?
Good question, dunno. I don't follow sc2.
14. Why does SC2 still receive balance patches when BW largely never did?
Good question. Probably because they tried to create BW 2 but failed :D
15. Do modern BW pros still practice in team-house-style environments, or is preparation looser now?
Alot looser seems to me.
16. Did reduced institutional structure lower or raise the overall skill ceiling?
Lower.
17. Was 2006–2010 truly BW’s golden age in scale, or only in perceived skill?
Again, I would call it similar to the golden age of anything, like Rock music, FPS or console releases (PS1, Mega Drive, SNES, N64 etc.) can you really compare the PS5 to these? No. Is the PS5 "better"? Yeah. Is it worthless? No. Was the golden age still better? Yes.
18. Has BW continued to evolve past what people once thought was a “solved” game?
Absolutely
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Game skill would be fairly hard to absolutely guess.
I have this feeling that due to game houses, very specific builds and timings were designed to win matches that could look very clean (as in, players never reaching 500 minerals during sub 15 minute games).
Today, I don't know if the way the game is played and how maps have influenced it just make it less clean by result, but with more variability even with the same builds.
Personally, I would say the skill has increased. By a substantial margin.
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EPT
