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GTR
51531 Posts
On February 03 2026 15:36 Piste wrote: Thank you. I didn't watch proleague back then. I watched only individual leagues. Which team did he represent? pirates of space (mbcgame hero) then hexatron dream team/enature top team (estro) most notable win he had was probably vs yellow | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2656 Posts
Also I don't think since SC2 launch there has been a point where it had less players than BW, even today, so not sure where you got that. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8797 Posts
On February 03 2026 04:49 Kraekkling wrote: "What if we put someones mind at 30-years-old with all his experience in his 16-years-old-body" is a meaningless thought experiment. Obviously there are things that deteriorate as someone ages, such as reflexes, I'm not arguing against this at all. Whatever it was that deteriorated since then, it was more than compensated by improvements in efficiency. If you click 20% slower but 30% more efficient, you still play better. Are modern players more efficient with their apm? Probably by a lot. Now, would one say that the mechanics got worse because someone clicks 20% slower? Maybe, I don't know, it just seems like meaningless arguing at that point. Whatever we can quantify as expression of skill in the game, such as micro and macro, improved compared to back then. please watch a few games from this era - those without bisu/jd/flash - and see for yourself. there's also some fpview in those VODs. old VODs on nevake how so? think of any conceivable supply/timing/tech benchmark and go compare old games with modern games. anything that can be measured and quantified is much more tight in modern games. macro cycles in modern games are not constrained by APM but by resource income. except theyre not more efficient with their apm. theyre more effective with it. thats a massive difference. making better choices on what to do with their apm isnt having better mechanics, its being smarter about the game. hence my initial point. the amount of times pros complain that they fumbled keyboard inputs, made misclicks or failed to react quick enough to something is off the charts. its not even a debate that their apm is less efficient and that their mechanics are worse. youre confusing better decision making with improved physical ability, which is just false. the reality is if the pros could go back to their late teens we would have been blessed with another level of starcraft that we will never ever see now | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10289 Posts
On February 03 2026 04:49 Kraekkling wrote: "What if we put someones mind at 30-years-old with all his experience in his 16-years-old-body" is a meaningless thought experiment. Obviously there are things that deteriorate as someone ages, such as reflexes, I'm not arguing against this at all. Whatever it was that deteriorated since then, it was more than compensated by improvements in efficiency. If you click 20% slower but 30% more efficient, you still play better. Are modern players more efficient with their apm? Probably by a lot. Now, would one say that the mechanics got worse because someone clicks 20% slower? Maybe, I don't know, it just seems like meaningless arguing at that point. Whatever we can quantify as expression of skill in the game, such as micro and macro, improved compared to back then. please watch a few games from this era - those without bisu/jd/flash - and see for yourself. there's also some fpview in those VODs. old VODs on nevake how so? think of any conceivable supply/timing/tech benchmark and go compare old games with modern games. anything that can be measured and quantified is much more tight in modern games. macro cycles in modern games are not constrained by APM but by resource income. As Pauline said, late game macro was so much better back then and players consistently keeping their money under 1k/1k even deep into big macro games. For those talking about how "skill" has gotten better since KeSPA, it really just depends on what definition of "skill" you're referring to and what you weight. I weight macro and micro (raw mechanics) over game knowledge and build order knowledge personally, so therefore I don't think that the players today are more skilled than the players of the past. Micro is a bit more interesting because obviously Snow's reaver micro is far better than it was back then. HOWEVER, he's also floating an ungodly amount of resources and idle probes when he does his reaver micro now compared to back then where this would not be happening in KeSPA A-team level Protosses. So.... eh, give or take on the micro aspect. I think evilfatshit lays it out well: Snow being more effective with his reaver micro is great, and typically his damage is worth the fact that he'll be floating 1.5k at 8 minutes and have 12 idle workers with a delayed 3rd base. But in all the jinjin videos of pros reacting to his reaver micro, they're still pointing out all the issues going on behind the reaver. | ||
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