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At high levels, the current PvP metagame revolves around 2 conflicting goals:
(1) invest as much gas as possible into tech (read: collosi); and
(2) defend the 4-gate timing attack.
A properly executed 4-gate will kill a great number of potential openings, so almost nobody at high levels of play attempts to expand or tech quickly. A lot of very good players believe that the best way to defend an all-in 4 gate is to build 4 gateways yourself and to get a few extra probes and a second assimilator.
This defensive 4 gate is commonly referred to as an "eco 4-gate" and is a very common build at high levels because it allows you to get both gas geysers while defending a 4-gate. Players will typically follow this up by teching toward collosi (or sometimes blink). This is a conservative, safe build, but it's also somewhat wasteful because you wind up building 2 gateways that will never be used (unless the opponent does 4-gate), and you have to invest early gas into stalkers and sentries in order to be safe.
I've worked out a 2-gate robo opening using 1 gas that is best thought of as an alternative to the eco 4-gate. Like the eco 4-gate, this opening is capable of defending an optimal 6 minute 4-gate, and is also reasonably strong against other common PvP builds.
Build order:
+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon (1st chronoboost on 11th probe)
13 gate (scout with probe that builds gateway)
13 gas (will have to cut probe production for about 1 second here. chronoboost immediately after starting next probe)
15 pylon
core @ 100% gate
zealot @100 minerals
stalker and warpgate research @ 100% core (chronoboost both gateway and core at this point. this allows you to get your stalker earlier to deny scouting and makes it look like a 4 gate)
robo ASAP when you can deny scouting (chrono the stalker out and start the robo out of the probe's vision if it stays in your base to be hunted down by your stalker. you need an immortal by 6 minutes and there aren't many seconds to spare)
pylon
robo @ or before 100% stalker (see above regarding timing)
zealot @ 100 minerals
2nd gateway
pylon
immortal
zealot
@100% warpgate research, 2 more zealots and another immortal
Basically, it's gate-robo-gate with a slightly earlier gas to get the immortal earlier, 1 stalker to deny scouting, and as many zealots as you can afford.
You will spend your first 2 chronoboosts on your nexus, a chronoboost on your stalker, 2 chronoboosts on WG research, and 2 on your first immortal. This leaves you with 5 zealots, 1 stalker and 1 immortal at the 6 minute timing where an all-in 4-gate can have 1 zealot and 6 stalkers. If they attack now, it should be very easy to hold. Just micro your immortal and stalker to keep them alive and shooting at stalkers.
If your opponent waits for a round of zealots before attacking, you'll have time for 2 more zealots and most of a 2nd immortal. Back up and let him hit a building for a few seconds and then engage as your 2nd immortal finishes. 7 zealots, 2 immortals and a stalker beats 5 zealots and 6 stalkers. Remember to fight in an open area as far away from his pylon as possible and to keep your immortals moving away from zealots and shooting stalkers.
Building placement is important, as you don't want to lose a pylon at this point. Your ramp will be his territory, so keep your buildings back and put your stronger buildings in front of your pylons. Keep microing your immortals and chronoboosting your production facilities. You're reinforcing with stronger units, so you'll win.
Against tech builds, this opening does decently. You'll want to get your second gas ASAP, so send a scouting probe before a 4-gate would hit to check for signs of a 4-gate. If you don't see them, take your second gas.
Compared to an eco 4-gate, you'll mine a little less gas, but you won't have wasted gas on sentries and stalkers which suck in a collosus battle. You'll also have your robo up earlier than an eco 4-gate would, and you'll have saved 300 minerals that would have been wasted on unused gateways.
This opening is not as strong as an eco 4-gate against stargate openings, may be weaker against fast expand builds (tho you can still kill them--get a warp prism to immortal drop the main and then forcefield his army in his main while you kill the expo), and is better than an eco 4-gate against DT rushes.
Keep in mind that a key to this opening's success is that it looks like a 4-gate. If your opponent feels safe and fast expands or techs straight to collosi, you may fall behind.
Replays:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187624.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187625.jpg)
And one posted by Acridice:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/135863-2v2-protoss-lost-temple#rd:buildorder
Also, I should include a hat tip to Liquid'Tyler from whom I got the idea for this build. He mentioned in his stream that he had a robo opening that can defend 4-gate on Scrap Station, and that zealot-immortal is really sweet against 4-gate after they've broken your ramp. This might be similar to the build Tyler referred to and it might not be similar, but this one does indeed hold 4-gate on Scrap Station.
Edit:
I've settled on a transition against tech builds that I think is strong, but relies on active scouting. If the 4 gate doesn't come, I've been expanding after my 1st or 2nd immortal depending on what I scout. If I see a significant number of stalkers that suggests blink, I'll obviously wait for the 2nd immortal. If I see sentries, I'll expand faster. If I see a lot of gateway units suggesting he was defensively 4 gating, I won't expand. If my opponent stays on 1 base, I stay with immortals+gateways and grab a warp prism to drop my immos on the collosi. This seems like a really good tactic because 1 base collosi doesn't have gas for stalkers, so the warp prism flies freely. If my opponent techs collosi and then counter-expands, I respond by teching collosi. He might have an extra collosus or two, but I have a better econ with more support units. It seems to work out fine. I just ran into 3 PvP's in a row in ladder, so I'll upload them.
The first and third make it to the expansion stage. The second is an easy win vs a 4 gate.
If you're wondering what to do against an opponent that expands and then tries to build up his colossus count instead of attacking, it turns out that you have a strong attack timing shortly after his expansion completes.
If you don't like PvP, seriously, try this out. Popping immortals in and out of a warp prism onto colossi might be the most fun micro in the game.
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Really interesting build. Kinda funny how funky Starcraft logic is sometimes. 2gate robo has a hard time holding off 4gate rush? What's the solution? 1gate robo. thanks for posting this.
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atm i'm @ 2.7k masters and i've been doing this some time now, but i am pretty bad so i can't say if it is indeed working for pro's. i can say it works against those poorly executed 4gates people on the ladder throw at me.
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I'm sold that this works pretty well against 4 gating, but I'm worried that its weaknesses to the other builds might not be worth the risk.
Don't most 4 gating people have a stalker out to deny the scouting of their 4 gate so that you can't send in a probe to scout?
All in all it's interesting and I will keep on eye on this thread.
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I know blink openers at least in NA have fallen out of favor for the most part. Have you had a chance to try this vs a blink opener? If one of the reps is a blink opener im sorry, but im unable to view the replays at this time
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On February 09 2011 04:38 Jayrod wrote:
I know blink openers at least in NA have fallen out of favor for the most part. Have you had a chance to try this vs a blink opener? If one of the reps is a blink opener im sorry, but im unable to view the replays at this time
Well, you're opening immortal, so you certainly CAN beat blink stalker openings. There are a lot of different ways to do a blink opening, so the optimal response will vary. If it's not an all-in, I'd recommend expanding and getting blink yourself. Then go stalker/immortal with a couple collosi to break forcefields/kill any zealots and win the macro game. I'm a big fan of blink openings tho, so I wouldn't say this build "counters" blink openings. I'd say it gives you a good shot to win.
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On February 09 2011 04:36 AirbladeOrange wrote:
I'm sold that this works pretty well against 4 gating, but I'm worried that its weaknesses to the other builds might not be worth the risk.
Don't most 4 gating people have a stalker out to deny the scouting of their 4 gate so that you can't send in a probe to scout?
All in all it's interesting and I will keep on eye on this thread.
Eco 4-gate is not optimal against tech builds (you can't kill them, and you haven't teched as quickly as possible), but eco 4-gate is VERY common in high level PvP. I consider this opening to be an alternative to an eco 4-gate. You're safe against an all-in, and your tech is decent. It's designed to look like a 4-gate, so your opponent can't know he's safe to tech straight to collosus.
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I have been doing a 2-Gate Robo build PvP recently and is working well for me. Instead of 1 gas though I get second gas at 20 and chrono 1 Zealot, 1 Stalker and 2 Sentrys out of my first gate I make my second gate in time for Warp Gate tech. I get my robo ASAP and chrono Immortals until I push out. If they are 4-Gating I can get 3 Sentrys some gateway units and an Immortal in time. From there I will endlessly FF my ramp until they back off. If they contain me I go for Colossus tech. This works well because it I get 3 Immortals fast and can usually do a lot of damage if they expanded.
2500+ Diamond
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On February 09 2011 04:36 AirbladeOrange wrote:
I'm sold that this works pretty well against 4 gating, but I'm worried that its weaknesses to the other builds might not be worth the risk.
Don't most 4 gating people have a stalker out to deny the scouting of their 4 gate so that you can't send in a probe to scout?
All in all it's interesting and I will keep on eye on this thread.
Thats kinda how it always goes scouting against 4 gate. You can get enough information to tell you how hard to prepare for the 4 gate by the time the stalker comes out though. This is where the energy on their nexus comes in. He hints at this when he says to CB the cybercore and the stalker if possible to make it look like a 4 gate. Basically your scout and his scout will then get the exact same information so it may encourage him to either set up a defensive 4 gate or an aggressive one. If this build holds both then its valid and the only challenge is being able to see how far ahead you are on tech and when you can add the second gas.
I wonder if this build can punish a player expanding behind a 4 gate fast enough?
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On February 09 2011 04:48 camster91 wrote:
I have been doing a 2-Gate Robo build PvP recently and is working well for me. Instead of 1 gas though I get second gas at 20 and chrono 1 Zealot, 1 Stalker and 2 Sentrys out of my first gate I make my second gate in time for Warp Gate tech. I get my robo ASAP and chrono Immortals until I push out. If they are 4-Gating I can get 3 Sentrys some gateway units and an Immortal in time. From there I will endlessly FF my ramp until they back off. If they contain me I go for Colossus tech. This works well because it I get 3 Immortals fast and can usually do a lot of damage if they expanded.
2500+ Diamond
Well I think one of the key points of his build is creating an army that can take on a 4gate straight up without the use of a bunch of sentries, which delay your tech. What you described is the very common 2 gate robo opener. He's delaying gas, getting an immortal by the time an aggessive 4 gate hits, and using a mostly zealot heavy army presumably to buy time for a second immortal to come out.
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I was skeptical in the other thread but after trying this a bunch it is a very good, safe way to get to a robo midgame.
Econ 4 gate is still IMO the safest way to get to a blink/charge midgame.
So everyone should learn how to do both ^^
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On February 09 2011 04:52 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 04:36 AirbladeOrange wrote:
I'm sold that this works pretty well against 4 gating, but I'm worried that its weaknesses to the other builds might not be worth the risk.
Don't most 4 gating people have a stalker out to deny the scouting of their 4 gate so that you can't send in a probe to scout?
All in all it's interesting and I will keep on eye on this thread. Thats kinda how it always goes scouting against 4 gate. You can get enough information to tell you how hard to prepare for the 4 gate by the time the stalker comes out though. This is where the energy on their nexus comes in. He hints at this when he says to CB the cybercore and the stalker if possible to make it look like a 4 gate. Basically your scout and his scout will then get the exact same information so it may encourage him to either set up a defensive 4 gate or an aggressive one. If this build holds both then its valid and the only challenge is being able to see how far ahead you are on tech and when you can add the second gas. I wonder if this build can punish a player expanding behind a 4 gate fast enough?
Yes, this opening saves a lot of chronoboost (only 2 used on nexus), so when you use chrono on your gate and your core right when the core finishes, it sends 4-gate alarm bells off in your opponent's head. The only tells are the slightly earlier gas and the third pylon. The slightly earlier gas isn't a big deal--it's pretty unlikely that they'll notice it, and even if they do, you can still do a hard 4 gate after a 13 gas. The third pylon is a significant tell that you're not doing an optimal hard 4 gate, but the suboptimal hard 4 gate with the 3rd pylon before added gates isn't that much weaker. If you want to really fake a hard 4 gate, cut probes at 22 and don't build your 3rd pylon until you chase their probe off. Then resume probe production and get your robo.
As for punishing an expansion, immortal dropping the main and then forcefielding to kill the expo is effective an expansion before blink or collosus. It's a difficult technique because you have to lure enough of their army in and you can't afford to lose your immortals, but it should work with practice.
There's also the option of counter-expanding. You'll have a mineral advantage since you only made 2 gateways, so expanding isn't a bad way to go. I'd actually like to test out how early it's possible to expand against 1-base collosus. I've run a few tests with mixed results, but I'd like to be able to say something like, "An expansion after starting your robo support bay is safe against 1-base collosus." I'm not sure at this point exactly how greedy you can be in your transition.
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there are around 2 or 3 builds that involve robo tech to hold of 3 gates and this is just 1 of them. the problem is i dont see how this build interact with non-offensive build.
for example, if you are getting 2 immo, when is the timing of the obs and the timing of robo bay if you only hv 1 gas? how this will result in late game with such a high zealots count and a stalkers count is almost 0? Once i experimented with this and i held off a 4 gates push perfectly, the guy went back and get blink and simply snipe my 1st colossi due to the high zealots count...
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Few things to improve your build , which will allow you to get immortal quicker and have more zealots to defend :
Use only 1 chrono on nexus rest on wg and imortals ;
Build gate at 12 , gas at 13 ; chrono your wg to match his wg timing ;
Make robo right after cyber , skipping stalker;
Build zealots exclusevly in begining instead of stalker, u dont need it to defend a zealot / stalker poke;
Stay on top of your ramp to have positioning advantage.
Replays of me and my friend (both 3300+ master league)
Replay1
Replay2
Replay3
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how does this do against the korean 4 gate?
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On February 09 2011 05:37 rolfe wrote:
how does this do against the korean 4 gate?
You'd probably adapt after scouting a Korean 4 Gate, and adapt to your own liking. I myself like cannons or a clever sim-city.
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On February 09 2011 05:34 turbopasca1 wrote:few things to improve your build : Use only 1 chrono on nexus rest on wg and imortals ; Build gate at 12 , gas at 13 ; chrono your wg to match his wg timing ; Build zealots exclusevly in begining instead of stalker, u dont need it to defend a zealot / stalker poke, stay on top of your ramp to have positioning advantage. Replays me and my friend are both 3000+ master league. Replay1replay2
I thought the point of getting stalker is to kill the scouting probe?
I'm sure high level play your going to see that probe alive for a long long time
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On February 09 2011 05:30 NB wrote:
there are around 2 or 3 builds that involve robo tech to hold of 3 gates and this is just 1 of them. the problem is i dont see how this build interact with non-offensive build.
for example, if you are getting 2 immo, when is the timing of the obs and the timing of robo bay if you only hv 1 gas? how this will result in late game with such a high zealots count and a stalkers count is almost 0? Once i experimented with this and i held off a 4 gates push perfectly, the guy went back and get blink and simply snipe my 1st colossi due to the high zealots count...
The goal is to determine what your opponent is doing ASAP. You can get your 2nd gas as soon as you know your opponent isn't going hard 4-gate, and you should know this by 6 min at the latest. With reasonable scouting, you should have a good sense earlier. I'd recommend getting your observer after your 2nd immortal. By this point, with just a probe scout and a knowledge of timings, you can rule out aggressive 4 gate, aggressive blink, fast expand, and phoenix openings. So you basically know he's going 1-base tech (either collosus or void) before your observer gets close to his base. In my experience, you're a little better off against 1-base collosus than you would have been had you gone eco 4-gate.
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On February 09 2011 05:34 turbopasca1 wrote:few things to improve your build : Use only 1 chrono on nexus rest on wg and imortals ; Build gate at 12 , gas at 13 ; chrono your wg to match his wg timing ; Build zealots exclusevly in begining instead of stalker, u dont need it to defend a zealot / stalker poke, stay on top of your ramp to have positioning advantage. Replays me and my friend are both 3000+ master league. Replay1replay2
I don't like 12 gate. With 12 gate, you have to cut probes to start the core right as the gate finishes. If you don't cut probes, the 13 gate gets the core at almost the exact same time.
If you want, you can save an extra chrono, but I find that you can get away with spending 2 on your nexus, so why wouldn't you?
The stalker is necessary to deny scouting. This opening is at a disadvantage against 1-gate FE and phoenix openings, so a good player will consistently beat this opening if you skip the stalker.
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On February 09 2011 05:37 rolfe wrote:
how does this do against the korean 4 gate?
That's what I am wondering, although you could scout this opening and make adjustments. What these adjustments would be, IDK.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-191942.jpg)
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