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On February 09 2011 08:13 gardis wrote:
i dont wanna be mean but..If he just warpin 4 stalkers u are in good shape with ur immortal, but i think u can get problems if he decide to just warpin zealots.
Yeah, I just tried the build and lost because my opponent didn't build the standard 6 stalkers but matched my zealot-count. My zealots died faster because stalkers are better vs zealots than immortals. I couldn't get around the zealots to attack the stalkers.
Imo it's very important to go aggressively into the zealot/stalker micro battle because this normally makes them warp in units not directly in front of or inside your main. This is exactly why the 2nd game was so much closer. Because in the first game he warped from the farther away pylon and the walking-time saved kcdc.
He can't avoid this micro-battle, otherwise his probe is unprotected.
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hey kcdc I would LOVE to 4 gate you to have the attackers point of view
Btw I dont believe you can defend 4gate vs an equal skill opponent
If you do it is because you are a better player
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On February 09 2011 09:22 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 08:13 gardis wrote:
i dont wanna be mean but..If he just warpin 4 stalkers u are in good shape with ur immortal, but i think u can get problems if he decide to just warpin zealots. Yeah, I just tried the build and lost because my opponent didn't build the standard 6 stalkers but matched my zealot-count. My zealots died faster because stalkers are better vs zealots than immortals. I couldn't get around the zealots to attack the stalkers. Imo it's very important to go aggressively into the zealot/stalker micro battle because this normally makes them warp in units not directly in front of or inside your main. This is exactly why the 2nd game was so much closer. Because in the first game he warped from the farther away pylon and the walking-time saved kcdc. He can't avoid this micro-battle, otherwise his probe is unprotected.
In a zealot vs zealot fight, immortals provide slightly better support (for cost) than stalkers do. They do the same DPS, but immortals can tank about double the hits. Given the same DPS, it's better to have one unit with double the health than spread the DPS over two units because at half damage, it's better to have an immortal at 50% health than have 1 of 2 stalkers die.
If you're fighting at an open area, you shouldn't have too much trouble getting your immortal in range of the stalkers.
Honestly tho, I haven't run into a 4 gate that attacks with more zealots than I've got. I'd imagine that would require different micro. If this opening becomes common, I suppose we might see more zealot-oriented 4 gates, but for now, zealots lack the mobility that makes 4-gates so hard to deal with once they're up your ramp.
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On February 09 2011 09:22 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 08:13 gardis wrote:
i dont wanna be mean but..If he just warpin 4 stalkers u are in good shape with ur immortal, but i think u can get problems if he decide to just warpin zealots. Yeah, I just tried the build and lost because my opponent didn't build the standard 6 stalkers but matched my zealot-count. My zealots died faster because stalkers are better vs zealots than immortals. I couldn't get around the zealots to attack the stalkers. Imo it's very important to go aggressively into the zealot/stalker micro battle because this normally makes them warp in units not directly in front of or inside your main. This is exactly why the 2nd game was so much closer. Because in the first game he warped from the farther away pylon and the walking-time saved kcdc. He can't avoid this micro-battle, otherwise his probe is unprotected.
Why don't you post a replay?
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How do you adapt to 2 gate adelscot?
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On February 09 2011 07:03 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 07:00 Salv wrote:
What if your opponent wasn't going to four gate you, and just did a standard three gate robo? With two immortals and observer, you would have very late colossus it seems. Also, if your opponent four gates and sees your prepared as he goes up the ramp, what's stopping them from warping in sentries and force fielding your ramp as they expand and tech to colossus themselves? I myself open three gate robo against all four-gates except korean, and I need that very quick colossus to bust down my ramp often. In my experience, 3 gate robo with 2 gas isn't safe vs 4 gate, so I don't know if it's a fair comparison. If they camp your ramp with forcefields, just make a warp prism and attack their main.
It's not safe versus every four gate, it's safe versus a more economic four gate - one where they aren't cutting probes as your probe is in their base. If they cut probes, then I four gate myself, and if they korean four gate, then I just simcity with cannons. I'm more concerned with how you would adapt to a player who does a style like the one I described above. You will be making immortals right away, as it's the entire point of the build, whereas someone else opening robo will make an observer, and then go right into colossus. That seems like it would put them at a significant lead.
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Canada13405 Posts
I have one question kcdc, what do you feel is a good transition or set of transitions?
If I see collossus off one base and heavy zealots then perhaps a stargate to get voidrays to attak the collosus is a good transition? I will try this build out in about 10 - 15 minutes against PC to learn the timings and practice then take this to ladder.
Im 2700 diamond and will return with my findings and experiences. Im not very good and im about average but I think with practice this may help me out with my PvP and not just 4 or 3 gating.
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On February 09 2011 09:44 Volka wrote:
How do you adapt to 2 gate adelscot?
2 gate adelscott is so ezily scouted, and you haven't even started this build really. So you just play how you normally would against the adelscott... However you want. Put up a 2nd gate, and then tech or just 4gate him.
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I still need some more work with this build, but it seems crucial to me that once you get your 2nd immortal out, and they haven't pushed YOU should push. And when you do, start warping in stalkers just in case you run into voids. I can't imagine them having a void ray when you actually do push at the 7 min mark because that would have meant they went like 2 gate stargate which is very risky to say the least.
The 4gate would have come by 6:30 at the latest, so once you see that, get your 2nd gas and start warping in stalkers now and make a push. You should have a favorable army at this time. I think it's also worth it to make a warp prism while you're pushing as it allows for a lot of flexibility in your attack, like warping in behind him, and keeping him under pressure if you fall backa bit.
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On February 09 2011 09:48 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 07:03 kcdc wrote:On February 09 2011 07:00 Salv wrote:
What if your opponent wasn't going to four gate you, and just did a standard three gate robo? With two immortals and observer, you would have very late colossus it seems. Also, if your opponent four gates and sees your prepared as he goes up the ramp, what's stopping them from warping in sentries and force fielding your ramp as they expand and tech to colossus themselves? I myself open three gate robo against all four-gates except korean, and I need that very quick colossus to bust down my ramp often. In my experience, 3 gate robo with 2 gas isn't safe vs 4 gate, so I don't know if it's a fair comparison. If they camp your ramp with forcefields, just make a warp prism and attack their main. It's not safe versus every four gate, it's safe versus a more economic four gate - one where they aren't cutting probes as your probe is in their base. If they cut probes, then I four gate myself, and if they korean four gate, then I just simcity with cannons. I'm more concerned with how you would adapt to a player who does a style like the one I described above. You will be making immortals right away, as it's the entire point of the build, whereas someone else opening robo will make an observer, and then go right into colossus. That seems like it would put them at a significant lead.
This build is really best against 1 gas builds. If they go 2 gas early enough for your probe to scout them mining gas, you don't have to worry about a hard 4 gate and you can do something that takes advantage of a 2 gas build (hard 4 gate, fast expand, get 2 gas yourself, etc). You'd choose this build if you're worried about defending a 4 gate, but you want to go robo and don't want to waste resources on gateways/sentries.
You can play it against 2 gas builds, but you'll want to fake a 4 gate so that they have to burn some gas on sentries. Against a 2 gas build, you'll want to take your 2nd gas as soon as their probe has been chased off, and then you want to sell a 4 gate to keep the tech race even. Try attacking with your first zealot/stalker and putting a pylon outside their front. It costs you 100 minerals, but they'll make 3 sentries which will even out the gas differential.
Alternatively, you could try to take advantage of your mineral advantage and expand quickly. It's something I haven't tested, but it might be doable against tech builds.
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On February 09 2011 10:08 Acridice wrote:
I still need some more work with this build, but it seems crucial to me that once you get your 2nd immortal out, and they haven't pushed YOU should push. And when you do, start warping in stalkers just in case you run into voids. I can't imagine them having a void ray when you actually do push at the 7 min mark because that would have meant they went like 2 gate stargate which is very risky to say the least.
The 4gate would have come by 6:30 at the latest, so once you see that, get your 2nd gas and start warping in stalkers now and make a push. You should have a favorable army at this time. I think it's also worth it to make a warp prism while you're pushing as it allows for a lot of flexibility in your attack, like warping in behind him, and keeping him under pressure if you fall backa bit.
Eh, I've tried it and discovered that you can't really break a sentry defense. You absolutely can make a warp prism and immortal drop for free kills. Tech builds are very low on stalkers, so you drop your immortals on the edge of their base to hit a pylon. The stalkers run over to defend, so you kill as many as you can and then pick up your immortals. The key is not to let your warp prism get hit. It takes some practice, but it can be worth doing. One game, I managed to tally something like 6 stalker kills, 2 pylons and a collosus. That's pretty atypical tho.
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Someone posted their attempts at this on the first page. They skipped the stalker and got the immortal out 30 seconds sooner. I think this might work given that so many player run their probe away around the time the stalker is coming out.
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Canada13405 Posts
I have another question, what about on maps with two ramps into your main such as blistering and jungle basin (if it is ever returned to map pool)?
With an immortal Zealot force I can see the opponent who 4 gates being able to really abuse the 2 entrances and the lower mobility of your units. I mean sure you can pull back to your nexus but the problem then is you are contained and if you try to attack them and push out they can come in through the back and kill stuff while you are out of position. So to avoid this you cant really go anywhere and are effectively contained allowing the 4 gater to expo. In these situations what is your perspective and experience?
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I really like this opening. At last a way to make early use of Immortals (they are boss!), even against 4 Gate. Hopefully it becomes as effective as your 1 Gate FE in PvT. Cheers to kcdc! :D
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Ah, good to see you've made this into a proper guide. If you want, I can do some more testing with you on it to see if you can expand immediately vs 2 gas builds, or what possibilities there are for punishing 2 gas builds.
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I've been playing with this build on YABOT all evening and I think there is a very slight bump when you're getting your 2nd gate, your 2nd zealot, the robo is half way done and you need a pylon in order not to get supply blocked for the immortal that you're about to queue.
Given that you're still on 1 gas at that point and that you're already fully saturated on the minerals, I think it's beneficial to cut a couple probes in order for everything to line up better. Otherwise it's very, very tough to have the 5 Zealots 1 Stalker and the Immortal ready at the 6 minute mark. Usually it's more like 6:15-6:20, and if the 4 gater is really good he'll hit around 5:45-5:50 so you really really need to be fully ready at the 6 minute mark in my opinion.
Very, very tight build but really neat if everything works out!
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suppose your 4gating opponent stops building stalkers, mostly builds zeal/sentry, contains you and expands?
do you get 1base colossus and win, or is it too slow vs their expo?
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Canada13405 Posts
Ive been using this so far tonight and i found that if the opponent decides to get mostly zealots on the warp ins even after the stalkers die then you are at a disadvantage since your immortals cant kill them quickly enough though perhaps i am mismicroing the attack
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On February 09 2011 11:43 RedusK wrote:
I've been playing with this build on YABOT all evening and I think there is a very slight bump when you're getting your 2nd gate, your 2nd zealot, the robo is half way done and you need a pylon in order not to get supply blocked for the immortal that you're about to queue.
Given that you're still on 1 gas at that point and that you're already fully saturated on the minerals, I think it's beneficial to cut a couple probes in order for everything to line up better. Otherwise it's very, very tough to have the 5 Zealots 1 Stalker and the Immortal ready at the 6 minute mark. Usually it's more like 6:15-6:20, and if the 4 gater is really good he'll hit around 5:45-5:50 so you really really need to be fully ready at the 6 minute mark in my opinion.
Very, very tight build but really neat if everything works out!
Yes, you do need to cut probes against a hard 4 gate that stops probe production after 20. That's scoutable tho. And you've correctly noted the spot that I like to cut probes. If you cut probes at 28/34, you have food to start a zealot and an immortal before you need your next pylon to finish. This seems to be the best spot to steal a few extra seconds with probe cuts.
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Considering this is designed to counter the 4 gate 1 gas build, why do you need to hide the fact that you are going 1 gate robo? You have a probe in their base so you can rule out any 2/3 non warpgate agression that would really crush a 1 gate robo build.
Metagame wise, wouldn't you want them to see the robo because 1. its a faster immortal and 2. the standard response is to 4 gate 1 gas against a robo (most people believe its impossible/highly improbable for a robo before 3 gates build to hold a 4 gate 1 gas, especially a 1 gate robo)
Well if they go stargate upon seeing it you have a build order loss (again, assuming equal skill, 3 gate stargate phoenix will crush any robo build) but I don't think many protoss do that right now--other than me because i love phoenix pvp =D.
I guess if they 2 gas robo and colossi tech in response it might be a slight problem but you still aren't really behind because you still have your robo and immortals are really freaking beast--one of the most under rated units in the game imo. You can just take your 2nd gas at ~6 minutes after the timing for a 4gate 1 gas and be fine against everything.
Personally I would love if they 1 gate robo'd to my 1 gate robo in response because I really don't think pvp is that bad past all the all-in crap.
This build is theoretically amazing for scrap station because i fking hate that map for pvp atm so thanks for posting this.
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EPT
