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On February 09 2011 05:37 rolfe wrote:
how does this do against the korean 4 gate?
10gateway 13gas with pulled probes is all scoutable with your first scouting probe. He pulls probes off gas, the gateway is early, and his nexus energy is higher than ever. You haven't placed your robo yet and can safely do whatever opening you prefer against Korean 4 Warpgate play. This does not typically involve a robo (no stalkers / variations with very few stalkers) so you're not continuing in the gateway - robo - gate build order.
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You are AWESOME dude, I just did this against a 10 gate - w4gate less than a minute ago and it works AMAZINGLY well, I even had a super delayed second gate because of RL stuff and it still held the 4gate off with ease.
Props man, this is gonna be my standard opening from now on, safe against fucking everything, except maybe a 1gate expand
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On February 09 2011 05:50 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 05:37 rolfe wrote:
how does this do against the korean 4 gate? 10gateway 13gas with pulled probes is all scoutable with your first scouting probe. He pulls probes off gas, the gateway is early, and his nexus energy is higher than ever. You haven't placed your robo yet and can safely do whatever opening you prefer against Korean 4 Warpgate play. This does not typically involve a robo (no stalkers / variations with very few stalkers) so you're not continuing in the gateway - robo - gate build order.
Exactly. Against K4G, you just do whatever you'd normally do against K4G. This opening saves quite a lot of chrono, so you should be fine.
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On February 09 2011 05:52 Dommk wrote:
You are AWESOME dude, I just did this against a 10 gate - w4gate less than a minute ago and it works AMAZINGLY well, I even had a super delayed second gate because of RL stuff and it still held the 4gate off with ease.
Props man, this is gonna be my standard opening from now on, safe against fucking everything, except maybe a 1gate expand
Thanks, glad you like it.
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I used to use a similar build (1gate robo into 2 gates) a lot and still use it like half the time, but what made me stop using it as much was the fact that I lost to a stargate build once. Obs is really late since you need immortals to hold off 4gate, but if he goes stargate, it's really strong since you only have 2 gates to start warping in stalkers AFTER you see his units, and the gates have been pumping only zealots so far. Stargate builds aren't too common, though, but it still gives kind of a coinflip sense to PvP.
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Nice that you worked out the timings so well. I've suspected that a VERY early robo should be able to beat a 4 gate because of the early immortal, but I never really had the guts to try it out.
Maybe there's hope left in PvP after all.
Just one question. In your build you scout after gateway - aren't you afraid of losing against cheese? I have my worst win-rates against cheese even though I scout at 9...
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On February 09 2011 06:28 sleepingdog wrote:
Just one question. In your build you scout after gateway - aren't you afraid of losing against cheese? I have my worst win-rates against cheese even though I scout at 9...
I can say without a doubt I lost to a cheese last night that would have been prevented if I had 9 scouted like i normally do. Ive always just gone with what liquid`tyler said a while back god knows where... that if you pylon scout you 13 gate and if you gateway scout you 12 gate and that those two things depend on what you're looking for and the map you're on. Seems like gateway scouting on 4 player maps would be best and pylon scouting on 1v1 maps best to me.
the worst is when you get cheesed like twice in a row then lose a standard game! I hate that so much... its not the cheese so much as I know im going to have to work really hard to get that standard win even though I just lost a game in like 4 minutes.
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On February 09 2011 05:45 kcdc wrote:
I don't like 12 gate. With 12 gate, you have to cut probes to start the core right as the gate finishes. If you don't cut probes, the 13 gate gets the core at almost the exact same time.
Yes but your Core is still a little delayed with the 13 gate. It has to be. The slight probe production stutter at 12 and then again at 17 shave off a bit of time which means that if your opponent hits with a 4 gate at ~ 5:50 and your 2 gates only come up at 6:00, those 10 seconds can really cost you, at least in my experience (I'm only high Diamond though so I'll defer to you on this obviously). But I don't know of another matchup than PvP where those few extra seconds matter so very much.
Love the build though, I'll definitely give it a shot, thanks so much for yet another awesome contribution to the arsenal of Toss builds.
Quick question about scouting on 13 though: isn't that a bit risky in terms of responding to things like proxy 2 Gate? by getting to their base that much later, especially on larger maps, I'd imagine it would be very difficult to adjust, and this build doesn't really pay off defensively until a bit later it seems? Do you always scout on 13?
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On February 09 2011 06:18 Enervate wrote:
I used to use a similar build (1gate robo into 2 gates) a lot and still use it like half the time, but what made me stop using it as much was the fact that I lost to a stargate build once. Obs is really late since you need immortals to hold off 4gate, but if he goes stargate, it's really strong since you only have 2 gates to start warping in stalkers AFTER you see his units, and the gates have been pumping only zealots so far. Stargate builds aren't too common, though, but it still gives kind of a coinflip sense to PvP.
Yeah, this opening suffers from a lack of anti-air. Stargate openings die to 4-gate for the most part (too gas intensive, and the resulting units aren't good against zealot/stalker), so this opening hedges its lack of AA by appearing to be a 4-gate. If they go stargate, they're effectively gambling that you're not going to 4 gate, and in the current PvP environment, that's not a good gamble. If this build becomes popular, however, that will change the calculus.
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Kcdc your guides are always excellent, i can't wait to check this out!
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What if your opponent wasn't going to four gate you, and just did a standard three gate robo? With two immortals and observer, you would have very late colossus it seems. Also, if your opponent four gates and sees your prepared as he goes up the ramp, what's stopping them from warping in sentries and force fielding your ramp as they expand and tech to colossus themselves? I myself open three gate robo against all four-gates except korean, and I need that very quick colossus to bust down my ramp often.
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On February 09 2011 06:28 sleepingdog wrote:
Just one question. In your build you scout after gateway - aren't you afraid of losing against cheese? I have my worst win-rates against cheese even though I scout at 9...
I do prefer to scout after gateway on 13 rather than the more common 9 scout on most maps. I check common cheese locations where it makes sense, but yeah, 9 scout is probably a little safer against cheese in a lot of situations. On a map like Xel'Naga Caverns, I feel totally comfortable with a 13 scout. I just bounce to the far corner of my base and then the area outside the ramp where everyone cannons and if I don't see cheese there, I feel confident he's building stuff in his base. On a map like Scrap Station, there's about a million places to hide a proxy, and it takes too long to get to their main for you to react in time after a scout on 13, so I 9 scout on Scrap Station. Lost Temple is somewhere in between. They can put 2 gates behind the grass on the low ground outside their main, and if you scout that position last after a 13 scout, you'll lose, but that's pretty rare. If you like to 9 scout, go ahead. Those extra minerals won't break the build. In general tho, I don't feel that much safer with a 9 scout than with a 13 scout, so I usually take the minerals.
I don't know if I should tell the world this, but my cheese defense is largely centered around whether his probe is acting weird. If the probe disappears for any length of time, I send a second probe to poke around looking for proxies and cannons. Smart cannon rushers should send 2 probes so the first can locate the base and act normal while the second acts like an asshole putting cannons everywhere.
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On February 09 2011 07:00 Salv wrote:
What if your opponent wasn't going to four gate you, and just did a standard three gate robo? With two immortals and observer, you would have very late colossus it seems. Also, if your opponent four gates and sees your prepared as he goes up the ramp, what's stopping them from warping in sentries and force fielding your ramp as they expand and tech to colossus themselves? I myself open three gate robo against all four-gates except korean, and I need that very quick colossus to bust down my ramp often.
In my experience, 3 gate robo with 2 gas isn't safe vs 4 gate, so I don't know if it's a fair comparison. If they camp your ramp with forcefields, just make a warp prism and attack their main.
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On February 09 2011 07:03 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 07:00 Salv wrote:
What if your opponent wasn't going to four gate you, and just did a standard three gate robo? With two immortals and observer, you would have very late colossus it seems. Also, if your opponent four gates and sees your prepared as he goes up the ramp, what's stopping them from warping in sentries and force fielding your ramp as they expand and tech to colossus themselves? I myself open three gate robo against all four-gates except korean, and I need that very quick colossus to bust down my ramp often. In my experience, 3 gate robo with 2 gas isn't safe vs 4 gate, so I don't know if it's a fair comparison. If they camp your ramp with forcefields, just make a warp prism and attack their main.
I 2nd the fact that any 2 gas robo build with sentries will not hold a properly executed 4 gate.
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@kcdc
Do you have a replay where a 1gate expand counters this build? Isn't it possible to transition into 4gates and crush the fe? The only fe builds in pvp which really worked were in my experience with cannonsupport - and 1-2 immortals should do pretty well against them (atleast in a cerain time frame).
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This is pretty new wow, but anyways yeah the build works great. Any early immortal with good micro against a 4gate will do well. Don't know why I see more pros doing this. Perhaps because it is strict on the micro and is "risky" because of that? (Ex: accidentally losing the immortal).
Would love to see someone get a warp prism + immortal with perfect control and rape a 4 gate xD. I'll look forward to the future 
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On February 09 2011 07:36 ABCSFirebird wrote:
@kcdc
Do you have a replay where a 1gate expand counters this build? Isn't it possible to transition into 4gates and crush the fe? The only fe builds in pvp which really worked were in my experience with cannonsupport - and 1-2 immortals should do pretty well against them (atleast in a cerain time frame).
No, don't have any. People don't often go 1 gate FE because it dies against the most common PvP builds. Immortals are bad for aggression tho. Unlike warpgate units, they have to slowly walk across the map. They also get owned by forcefields. You can run some tests tho if you like. It's possible you can just walk over and kill it with your first immortal + zealots.
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i dont wanna be mean but..
i watch the replay now and a "well excuted 4 Gate 1 Gas allin" will hit u @ 5:45~ 5:50
with 5 Stalker or 1 Zealot 4 Stalker
~ in the first replay u got 2 Zealot 1 Stalker + 3/4 of ur immortal @ this time
his attack is like 20 seconds to late
second replay
timinig of his attack was good, but he just had 3 Warpgates.
so im not so sure what i have to think about it
i think it depends on what the player is warping in. If he just warpin 4 stalkers u are in good shape with ur immortal, but i think u can get problems if he decide to just warpin zealots.
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For note, I've seen TLO do this build quite a bit. And form my personal experience it's quite solid, however if your opponent goes the extremely fast colossus route, the only option i've found to deal with the range advantage is to get a warp prism and drop on the colossus. Just thought i'd mention it.
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EPT
