EPTSentries aren't BAD in colo phase of the game btw. FF is obv a lot worse, but it can still be used somewhat to block lots from getting to your army sometimes. And the most important thing ofc is gs. Reducing 4dmg per colohit is pretty huge. So it's not waste if you have 2 sentries in lategame.
[G] PvP 1-gas 2-gate robo opening - Page 5
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
Sentries aren't BAD in colo phase of the game btw. FF is obv a lot worse, but it can still be used somewhat to block lots from getting to your army sometimes. And the most important thing ofc is gs. Reducing 4dmg per colohit is pretty huge. So it's not waste if you have 2 sentries in lategame. | ||
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gardis
Switzerland18 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:30 turbopasca1 wrote: watch my replays on 1st page , the reason why my bo differes from kcdc (12 gate , no stalker) is because a good executed 4 gate push comes at 5.35-5.45 minute mark , and u wont have immortal out by that time if u follow kcdc build order . agree  | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:30 turbopasca1 wrote: watch my replays on 1st page , the reason why my bo differes from kcdc (12 gate , no stalker) is because a good executed 4 gate push comes at 5.35-5.45 minute mark , and u wont have immortal out by that time if u follow kcdc build order . Nearly forgot to question that: The timings are getting a bit ridiculous. Show me ONE pro-gamer-replay were the 4 gate push HITS (!) at 5:35. I'm not talking about warpgate-tech finishing or warpgate-transformation finishing or stalker-warp-in finishing. I'm talking about the exact point in time when one zealot and 6 stalkers are starting to do nasty stuff to your base. Because that's when you need the immortal out. You don't need it when he starts warping in his stalkers, you don't even need it when he walks up the ramp. You need it once he realizes that you are, in fact, waiting for an immortal and are not 4-gating yourself. And I have never seen a game where this was the case at 5:35. So please, if somebody could show me a game where something like that happened, I'd appreciate it. After a 12 gate of course, 10 gates don't matter obviously. | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:51 iChau wrote: 13 gate 15 gas 16 pylon 18 core 19 zealot (chrono to attack) 22 pylon stalker + warp gate (chrono to attack) stalker you will have around 28-32 supply while moving out, you will have a huge amount of minerals (300+) throw down a nexus + pylon 2 gates and a robo chrono depends on the terran you can chrono your probes if you see a passive FE terran attack with your scouting probe, zealot, and stalker (together) and you'll be able to take out marines if he has any or possibly marauders. trading a zealot for a marauder is always good. Sweet, definitely gonna try out this type of FE asap. When exactly do you throw down the additional gates and robo? do you save up after throwing down the nexus or do you wait to get mining going there first? @KCDC -- Do you have any replays you can post of this? Or is there a thread out already? | ||
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loklok
Germany161 Posts
If you are interested in timings: He attacked me exactly (first hit) at 6:00 with 4 Stalker and 3 Zeals against 3 zeals 1 stalker ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187806.jpg) | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
Quick question, If you defend the initial wave but he just keeps hitting you over and over, at any point do you drop a 3rd gate, or build more probes, or tech, or do you just have to keep warping in off 2 gates and getting immortals? At some point I gotta think he'll make more zealots than stalkers, so some adjustment may need to be made at that point. | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On February 10 2011 01:44 Khaladas wrote: I'm definitely going to try this. Quick question, If you defend the initial wave but he just keeps hitting you over and over, at any point do you drop a 3rd gate, or build more probes, or tech, or do you just have to keep warping in off 2 gates and getting immortals? At some point I gotta think he'll make more zealots than stalkers, so some adjustment may need to be made at that point. Some of that was already addressed, I believe the zeal/ immortal combo will beat their stalker/ zeal combo. Other than that, not sure about the timings or path you take... I, personally, like the expo after defending the initial 1 or 2 pushes. If you see them turn around and try to get their expo up, I expo and push because they cannot do a round of warps/ get probes/ and expo all at the same time. | ||
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loklok
Germany161 Posts
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On February 10 2011 01:55 loklok wrote: That was my problem, he saw my immortals and made only zeals. It is nearly impossible to make a defense out of 2 gate against 8 zeals. I tryed to add 3rd gate but it was too late. Probably warping in 1 sentry after you have defended the first 1-2 waves and cut the coming zeals into half on the ramp while the third gate is building. Sounds like a good idea. I have not tried this out too much yet, as I just saw it today, but I would assume colossus tech would help out in this situation. Or would that be too late? | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
I hit after the first wave on maps with ramps (re: all of them) because the 2nd wave, while huge, gets stuck at the choke, as such, they are 5:30-5:40 with Stalkers or Zealot Sentry depended on what I scouted. I really have not seen any build besides 10 gate into 3 gate or a 4 gate of your own hold off a properly executed 4 gate at any high level. | ||
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loklok
Germany161 Posts
Sounds like a good idea. I have not tried this out too much yet, as I just saw it today, but I would assume colossus tech would help out in this situation. Or would that be too late? First wave is easy. The second one is often again a zeal stalker mix and then he goes for only zeals. You can't tech to colossus, it would be way too late. I ended up with 2 immos (1 very low) some zeals and one stalker. Lost my zeals against the enemy zeals because my zeals were already wounded and then it's an easy game for the 4gate zeals because 2 zeals out of your 2 gate can't hold the line. Next time i try to warp 1 or 2 sentries after i defended the first waves and try to half the incoming zeals. | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On February 10 2011 02:15 loklok wrote: First wave is easy. The second one is often again a zeal stalker mix and then he goes for only zeals. You can't tech to colossus, it would be way too late. I ended up with 2 immos (1 very low) some zeals and one stalker. Lost my zeals against the enemy zeals because my zeals were already wounded and then it's an easy game for the 4gate zeals because 2 zeals out of your 2 gate can't hold the line. Next time i try to warp 1 or 2 sentries after i defended the first waves and try to half the incoming zeals. Another gate it is! I would assume that would be good enough? | ||
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Barty
France64 Posts
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loklok
Germany161 Posts
Another gate it is! I would assume that would be good enough? Jap i think thats the point. Will try that in some games. I'd like to see a replay of this build vs. proper 4 gate hitting @5:40 with 1 zealot and 6 stalkers, then warping 3 zeals/1 stalk per cycle because that's what I would do. I assume you will absolutely need a sentry to kill all these meaty zealots, because producing out of two gates is ... well it offers little support for your immos. It depends on map and how you manage the early stages. Do your enemy walk out with his first 3 units and trys to prevent your proxy pylon? With a bit poking you can delay the 4 gate and win some seconds. But that is not really the point. I mean people are adapting a build and try to execute it in their league and with their skill as best as possible. If it is working - mission completed. If they are becoming better and better they have to improve their build execution. I think that is not reasonable to compare a strategy with "pro gamer timings" and say "no it is no good in the pro levels" Edit: Barty why don't we try it out in some games? Just PM me your acc and i will contact you | ||
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Bratsche
United States46 Posts
When I've run this opening against a 4 gate, I've found that its weakness is the lack of gateways. IF your opponent gets to warp in up your ramp, and if he chooses to warp in 4 zealots, it might be GG. However, the immortals make quick work of proxy pylons near your main (can usually take them out from the high ground), and immortals do to stalkers what banelings do to marines. It's awesome. Tactics wise, if my opponent is 4 gating with mainly stalkers, I like to cut the stalker and make a sentry. This is a fine line i admit (and i've chosen to do this at the wrong times plenty, haha) but with a forcefield you can trap stalkers inside your ramp thus forcing them to engage your immortal(s). This is only viable if your warp cooldown timing at the moment allows for it, and of course is dependent on his composition. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On February 10 2011 01:07 GreEny K wrote: Sweet, definitely gonna try out this type of FE asap. When exactly do you throw down the additional gates and robo? do you save up after throwing down the nexus or do you wait to get mining going there first? @KCDC -- Do you have any replays you can post of this? Or is there a thread out already? If you see a crap-load of MM, throw down 3 gates. If you see reasonable MM + tech, go 2 gates + robo. When you get your nexus down, throw down a pylon near it. Now save up money and throw down the buildings, and get the 2nd gas. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887 | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On February 10 2011 00:54 sleepingdog wrote: Nearly forgot to question that: The timings are getting a bit ridiculous. Show me ONE pro-gamer-replay were the 4 gate push HITS (!) at 5:35. I'm not talking about warpgate-tech finishing or warpgate-transformation finishing or stalker-warp-in finishing. I'm talking about the exact point in time when one zealot and 6 stalkers are starting to do nasty stuff to your base. Because that's when you need the immortal out. You don't need it when he starts warping in his stalkers, you don't even need it when he walks up the ramp. You need it once he realizes that you are, in fact, waiting for an immortal and are not 4-gating yourself. And I have never seen a game where this was the case at 5:35. So please, if somebody could show me a game where something like that happened, I'd appreciate it. After a 12 gate of course, 10 gates don't matter obviously. Agree. You need your immortal before he's able to kill pylons/probes. You can use your first zealot and stalker to make sure he has to plant his proxy pylon a good distance from your ramp. You should also set your buildings back a distance from your ramp to buy more seconds. I'm ~3200 Masters and I get 4-gated A LOT. I'm obviously not facing pro level 4-gates, but I suspect that not many of you are either. When I execute cleanly, I don't have trouble getting the immortal in time to defend. I just ran a test against the computer. I had the immortal out at 5:55 exactly with 3 zealots and a stalker, and my 2 additional zealots warped in at 6:00 even. Off of a 12 gate, I'd imagine that you'd have to let them build a proxy pylon inside your main in order to lose a pylon by 5:55. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On February 10 2011 01:44 Khaladas wrote: I'm definitely going to try this. Quick question, If you defend the initial wave but he just keeps hitting you over and over, at any point do you drop a 3rd gate, or build more probes, or tech, or do you just have to keep warping in off 2 gates and getting immortals? At some point I gotta think he'll make more zealots than stalkers, so some adjustment may need to be made at that point. If you control your ramp and they're still being aggressive with 4 gate, just make a sentry and tech to collosi. The reason I don't make a sentry at the start is because the 100 gas delays the immortal too much, but at any point that you can afford a sentry, forcefields are still really good at defending gateways units coming through a choke. | ||
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Gool
Argentina204 Posts
On February 09 2011 13:37 Dsn4001 wrote: Dude, I love you kcdc. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187722.jpg) Had a game PvP with a 2700 Masters player, he does the proper 4 gate at 5:40. Manage to hold. I even go afk a bit since I know I'm so far ahead. He didnt do it right, he had only 5 units at 5:40 and not even at your door. A proper 4 gate has 1 zealot 6 stalker at 5:45-5:55 at your door, and a pylon near the ramp/ledge to warp in and go through forcefields, besides, his micro was horrible. kcdc, i was trying to do this with a friend last night, we tried for like 6-7 games con xel naga caverns, and all the time a perfect 4 gate would crush it and it was not even close, so we gave up. The huge problem was to stop the 2nd warpin of 4 zealots that comes just about the ramp/lege pylon finishes. Im no great protoss, just 2700 master, but i thought i should share what i saw. Do you have any replays against a well-microed, well-timed 4g? Thanks in advance. PD : I'm attaching one of last night replays. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187872.jpg) | ||
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