On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote: That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate?
To hit that super early timing, they have to cut probes early, use only 2 chrono on something other than WG research, no second gas, and no third pylon before 3 extra gates. You should always keep track of how aggressive your opponent can be given what you've scouted. This opening is pretty strong defensively once you get to ~6 minutes. If their build can attack well before that, you need to adjust.
Wondering how you would adjust accordingly, I've scouted them last on 4 player maps so 2 gating isn't an option even after pylon scout. Say your plan was to open with this, but scouted 10 gate 4 gate as opposed to 12, what do you advise?
For K4G, I like to cut probes at 20, take 2 probes off gas after 100, and chrono out as many zealots as possible while adding gates. You're too far behind on WG research to defend with warpgates, so you need to just have enough stuff ahead of time to weather the storm till WG finishes.
Will keep that in mind, I've also been seeing a lot of 10 gate-4 gate with stalker play, though I'm pretty sure pulling probes still puts me ahead in econ if I need to hold that.
Back on topic of the original post, I use this build in pvp and have yet to lose to a 4 gate with it if I don't make any mistakes. I usually tech to 1 base colossus after the 6 30 mark if I don't get 4 gated. I've changed it slightly to add a 3rd gate as opposed to the earlier zealots, but that is only because I like the spike in production since I've hit delayed 4 gates from time to time.
Also, I think this is still usable on Tal Darim Altar. Since by the time his second stalker arrives to do the poke you'll have a second zeal to push them back, unless they decide to micro around inside your base, I don't see it as being too much of an issue.
Do you really run in to...late 4 gates that this works against very often? Generally I either face a defensive 4 gate which this would obviously be fine against (you could even be a little more greedy with an early 2nd gas) or an offensive 4 gate with 2 chrono's on probes, 1 on gateway, and rest on warpgate. No way this would work against that. He'd have your 3 units dead before the immo even popped (2 zealot 1 stalker *WONT* stop proxy pylon)
On April 16 2011 05:12 Complete wrote: Do you really run in to...late 4 gates that this works against very often? Generally I either face a defensive 4 gate which this would obviously be fine against (you could even be a little more greedy with an early 2nd gas) or an offensive 4 gate with 2 chrono's on probes, 1 on gateway, and rest on warpgate. No way this would work against that. He'd have your 3 units dead before the immo even popped (2 zealot 1 stalker *WONT* stop proxy pylon)
The reason 4 gates end up being late is because from their scout probe, this looks like a 4 gate, unless there's some other read they get, they won't know it's a fast robo build. Most people just defensively 4 gate, when they don't get hit, they go offensive with it.
As far as the "balls-to-the-wall 4 gate" goes, this build works against it fine, there are replays. If you mean my take on it, it also works, and I can provide replays as well.
Forgot to address one other point, you don't need to stop their proxy pylon, the timings work out anyway. If they attack you, you can push them back (since they have to kite your 2 zealots) long enough for your immortal to pop, at which point retreat into your base and start the micro war.
This build demolishes every 4gate except for the fastest ones, which are pretty easy to scout and adapt too. I use this build on maps without ramps and even then have no problems.
One big thing I've found with it is that you really can't afford to delay your Robo. It's almost affordable before the 3rd Pylon but not quite [gas restriction] (if you drop it at Pylon 24, Robo at 25/26), and it can't go down much later than that for this to hold. Keep this in mind when placing your 2nd Pylon, as you may need to tuck that Robo away somewhere if you are keen on denying scouting. In any case, your Stalker pops very shortly after you want to be warping it in, so you can get that Probe out of your base asap.
Also important is to make sure you are saving Chrono so that you have at least 2 to dump into your first Immortal. I like to only use 2 on Probes, 1 on first Zealot, then 1 on Stalker + Warpgate to make it look like a 4-gate. From there it's just banked for Immortals.
You can pretty much make Probes nonstop until the attack happens, and sometimes even through it but I like to hold them, preserve units and not miss Pylons (obviously). It's ok to add a 3rd gate if you get nervous and is very affordable without missing production.
This a very good build indeed, and I'm suprised I don't see more people using it.
The problem with other robo builds that rely on sentry is you 100% give up on map control and you won't be able to put out pressure. You are basicly stuck in your base and leave your opponent to do what he wants. This build fakes a 4gate which means people have to respect that and prepare accordingly.
Ever since I started using this on ladder I'm actually happy when I get a PvP
I've started using this build a lot lately againsts all races actually. I found that an immortal more powerful than 2 Stalkers by a lot although they can't shoot air. So by forgoing the ability to shoot air, you get a more powerful ground unit. Nice thing is that people rarely go early air nowadays aside from protoss void rays... but void rays are fragile ...a few stalkers when you see them should be able to hold. (unless they mix in phoenix to do lifts... then you're now in trouble)
Againsts terran, immortal just murders marauders. The more marauders they have, the easier you will be able to hold.
Same thing with Zerg's Roaches. The problem I had was when they go heavy heavy zergling...
Is this build still viable post 1.3.3 patch now?? Do we need to 'sacrifice' economy as much now for that early immortal due to the 4WG 20second delay??
My question is, is this a good optimal opener for PvP now?
On May 13 2011 09:49 bankai wrote: Is this build still viable post 1.3.3 patch now?? Do we need to 'sacrifice' economy as much now for that early immortal due to the 4WG 20second delay??
My question is, is this a good optimal opener for PvP now?
This build is alive because it only needed 10 more seconds to be safe vs 4 gate and it got 20. Noone knows how pvp will be affected by the 1.3.3 but this build is a good start maybe it will be viable 1 month from now maybe not.
Robo builds are strong vs blink stalker and they are not very weak vs stargate.
To all ye who have been asking: I still find this quite viable post-patch.
I've been doing this since just before 1.3.3 when I was at about 25% win ratio in PvPs - I'm still currently around 75% after doing this.
Do this build and with good scouting and reaction to said scouting - you WILL win. As noted, it counters 3gate blink, DT, and 4gate - plus you have the early transition into colossus IF you need to do it.
Other viable transitions I've found are:
- Mass chargelot (smashes people who do many stalkers without blink) - Heavy Immortals (smashes people who attempt to expo behind a 4gate/weird-5gate)
This build is completely inferior to a 2 gas gate-robo-gate build now. Getting a fast 2nd gas and 1 sentry will make the build better at stopping 4 gates AND better against other stuff.
On maps with a wide ramp this build is still suicide, 4 gate zealot/stalker beats 2 gate robo zealot/immortal with proper micro.
On June 12 2011 19:54 Markwerf wrote: This build is completely inferior to a 2 gas gate-robo-gate build now. Getting a fast 2nd gas and 1 sentry will make the build better at stopping 4 gates AND better against other stuff.
On maps with a wide ramp this build is still suicide, 4 gate zealot/stalker beats 2 gate robo zealot/immortal with proper micro.
How fast is the 2nd gas? And does that still include getting the first gas at 13?
I'm still finding 13/13 viable, but I might give that a go instead.
Question about this I do a variation on this. After my core I put down a robotics bay with the first 100 gas. Then stalker then immortal and cronobost it, put down a second gas then do warpgates. and then second gateway. Is the OP way better?
On June 20 2011 10:14 jere wrote: Question about this I do a variation on this. After my core I put down a robotics bay with the first 100 gas. Then stalker then immortal and cronobost it, put down a second gas then do warpgates. and then second gateway. Is the OP way better?
Despite the fact that (in theory) your Immortal will be out a bit quicker - you are incredibly vulnerable to the 3stalker push and/or 1zeal/1stalker early attack.
I wouldn't really advise skipping the stalker. Also not to mention - you'll have no viable way to check for proxy pylons either, unless you use a probe - which is also detrimental.
Sometimes I have almost lost purely because of the 3stalker rush, but normally the immo pops out just in time anyway - thus there really isn't any need to skip the early stalker unless you're doing some non-standard immortal attack.
Uh oh, necro posting ITT. This build is slightly outdated and should not be used post 1.3.3. Please don't revive the thread by posting how it works for you. Any build CAN work but this build is inferior to 2 gas robo builds in every way post 1.3.3. Let the build rest in peace.
On July 06 2011 09:45 Packeteer wrote: Uh oh, necro posting ITT. This build is slightly outdated and should not be used post 1.3.3. Please don't revive the thread by posting how it works for you. Any build CAN work but this build is inferior to 2 gas robo builds in every way post 1.3.3. Let the build rest in peace.
I really can't agree with this. I want to revive this because it's a sweet build that I've used with lots of success lately. It's safe against 4-gate, pretty much destroys blink openings, and gets you fast colossus. And it looks like a 4-gate, which 2-gas fast robo does not. And personally I've found 2 gas fast robo into super-fast colossus is a bit weak to really good blink timings, which is a weakness this 1-gas robo build does not have (imo). If you are doing this build and your opponent is doing 2 gas fast robo, he might have a small advantage, but that's no reason to totally stop discussion of this build!
I'm also reviving this thread because I've made a video demonstrating it which I hope will illustrate some of the great concepts:
PvP is not just about build orders. Mindgames play a huge role in the matchup. If I get my gas stolen and don't manage to steal my opponent's gas I always go for a Robo right after I chased out my opponent's scouting probe because I'm scared of blink and DTs. This build may be inferior to 2 gas Robo builds but in certain circumstances it's a good thing to do in my opinion.
This opening has a somewhat different feel in 1.4. 4-gate is no longer much of an issue, but I think that plays to the strength of this build in certain ways. Many times, your opponent lets you see something that tells you they can't 4-gate hard (2 gas, 3rd pylon, constant probe production, stealing your gas, etc), which allows you to continue probe production and head straight for an ultra-fast observer before your first immortal. In close air positions, this allows you to play reactively much earlier than you can with other builds.
Additionally, people are teching straight to colossi pretty frequently now that 4 gate is less scary, and immortal popping (particularly with the immortal range and warp prism health buffs) owns colossi builds if you have the micro.
Blink builds gave me problems before the patch because I am so zealot heavy, but the timing is now late enough to hold easily. You can't expand quickly into a blink build like you can against a robo build, but you should have the quick obs to react to his opening and you're safer to tech now.
The big downside is that phoenix openings are much better post-1.4 and phoenix openings own this opening pretty hard. It's still my best opening in PvP, and I think, on balance, its place in the metagame has improved since I first posted the guide.
Is there any reason to still do it as a 1-gas build? Previously the idea was to have a very streamlined build so that it could handle a 4gate, but as sentries are now the key to early game defence in any PvP with a ramp, would it now always be better to get the second gas?
On September 27 2011 03:32 Jumbled wrote: Is there any reason to still do it as a 1-gas build? Previously the idea was to have a very streamlined build so that it could handle a 4gate, but as sentries are now the key to early game defence in any PvP with a ramp, would it now always be better to get the second gas?
A 2 gas version would really be an entirely different build. With 2 gas, you defend with sentries, and you play a colossus build.
With this build, I play aggressively with zealots and immortals, and typically stay on 1 gas the whole game if my opponent goes robo. While you can configure a robo build that takes a second gas and is safe against 4 gate, you won't have the minerals to play my anti-robo style where I'm able to expand AND deny a colossus player's expansion.
I've had an unreasonable amount of success against this build with a Phoenix build, as kcdc mentions. If they go for obs first from their robo, I can often just lift the sentry and walk up their ramp and kill them. However, if the robo player does manage to hold, I've found it a bit more difficult to finish them off, due to the fact that Phoenix's aren't great at just outright killing people.
I still prefer the Phoenix build to the robo, but that's based entirely on metagame right now. You can basically do it blindly and most players will robo with an observer first.
EDIT: Even if they don't build a sentry, it's still a pretty easy win most of the time. I'll usually just wait until I have an additional Phoenix at that point before pushing out to attack to lift and attempt to give myself the unit advantage on the ground.
EPT
