|
On March 26 2011 06:41 Janaz wrote:Great and easy opening which i now use every time in PvP!  About the 1 base collosi, has anyone tried to expand and get 5 gates + blink or +1? That's my biggest struggle right now since i suck at microing and droping immortals on the colossus isn't really my thing (still cool and fun though)
I don't think you have enough time/economy to hold that push with blink. The immortal pop tactic is more cost-friendly because you already have the tech and immortals ready to go.
|
kcdc, have you had any success with this build on Taldarim LE? Against 4 gate ofc.
|
On March 29 2011 08:25 iChau wrote:
kcdc, have you had any success with this build on Taldarim LE? Against 4 gate ofc.
Haven't tried it, but I don't think I will. I don't see how you'd deal with a 1z/2s push before his WGs finish.
|
Thanks kcdc, I never get tired of your BO's One question tho, is this autoloss vs stargate play?
|
Hey kcdc thanks for this great post and build, it's a lot of fun.
I have a question about how to hold vs someone who opened with a blind Stargate? I use this build on most maps PvP unless I feel like going DTs.
My normal transition is to grab my 2nd gas and get an Obs after the second Immortal pops, followed by expanding with Col tech (my minerals are usually pretty spiked at this point). I'm usually pretty active with my Obs to make sure I don't get DT'd, and rarely does it end up at their base before my Col den finishes. By this point I start to realize that shit looks pretty grim because they haven't expanded.
Anyways I guess my question is: Can this hold vs a 1base Stargate play? Should I be gas stealing every single time to prevent/delay these kind of tech rushes? I was feeling really good with this build up until my last game where this happened.
I didn't make any Colossus, but I couldn't crank out enough Stalkers in time to hold off his attack off of my 2 Gates (added more but didn't get any use before the attack hit).
|
+ Show Spoiler +Not only would I break this with 4gate. ( 6 stalkers 5 zealots at 6:15-6:20 already fight at the top of a ramp).. What if the other player simply changed his tech path to 3 gate stargate after chasing your probe out, and starts spending those cboost on void rays and attacks while you're desperately squeezing out zealot immortal and then getting an observer while saving gas for colossi tech.... You're pretty much flipping a coin. If you try and get the observer out to scout with your immortal won't come even close to in time for a possible 4gate attack.
From the replay i watched " zeal_immo_4_gate__[Star2.org] "
Your opponent did a list of things that just added up to his 4gate being a failure:
+ Show Spoiler +
-No pairing of workers
-late first zealot
-extremely early third pylon, for an attacking 4gate
-didn't make any additional units out of his first gate after the first stalker (you can easily squeeze out a second stalker)
-cut his probes late
-gave you a zealot for free
-didn't put pylons at your ramp to warp up immediately
-didn't warp in units as often as he could, especially early on when having 4 units 15 seconds earlier makes all the difference in a pvp
-had semi poor micro, he practically walked into your zealots and immortals with his stalkers
-he just randomly decides to engage with his 4gate rush.. He doesn't wait for his warp cycle or try on and reduce the damage he takes with proper micro etc, he just randomly starts pushing up the ramp while not even warping in men at the right time, and when a good portion of his army is dead/missing a lot of heal he decides it's time to warp in..
Just going to re-emphasize that 4gate has 6 stalkers and 5 zealots around 6:15.. with another round of whatever units he wants (2 stalker 2 zealot, or 4zealot) around 6:50.. if you do the math that's 15 units compared to the 8 units he brought into your base at 6:45..
Idk. I think a good 4gater would break this, or someone who like you wants a 12 minute game timing attack, but scouts your robo going down before your stalker finishes, and knows if he builds a stargate with economy and attacks with a few void ray, 3gate army around 11:00 he wins.
The only build I see this being strong against is poorly executed 4gate build orders, and hopeful gimmicky dt play. It could crush blink stalkers, if you have enough random immortals out before colossus, otherwise blink stalkers might just waste you, not to mention even then it comes down to a battle of brute force vs superior mobility... and often turns into a hard to win base trade vs units with higher mobility.
But yeah in this replay at 6:25
+ Show Spoiler +you have 3 zealots a stalker and an immortal, and unfortunately 6 stakers, 5 zealots pretty much crush right through that and in 35 seconds you're going to be looking at another 4 zealots before money even gets tight for the 4gater, just massively outproducing you trying to chrono out immortals and 2gate zealots... and that is the all-important timing to keep in mind. At this point in time he will kill all of your zealots microing his stalkers away from your immortal attacking his zealots, he will kill your zealots before you kill his because 5zealots and 6 stalkers have superior dps vs 3 zealots a stalker and an immortal with even remotely proper micro, and now he's got 1-2 zealots attacking your last remaining immortal/stalker as your second immortal finishes up, so does another wave of 4 zealots right next to his army, making it a breeze to reposition. Not only that he can damage your zealots as they warp in and you really can't do jack about his warping in units. You don't have a second gas so you can't really squeeze a sentry out anywhere, not forgetting to mention that it's pointless to get a sentry out since your build relies just camping in your base with at most one immortal and one or two stalkers, a protoss can easily protect his pylons vs such a low count of ranged units, and then start warping 4 zealots up the ramp with the ramp vision trick. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=201964 Take a look at this. While I didn't flawlessly execute the build order (sliiightly slow 3rd probe on gas cost me a few seconds, sliiightly slow pylons at ramp and semmmmi bad micro with ramp battle) I just hopped into a game real quick after making this post to show you the timings I'm talking about, comparing them to those in the replays that I watched. I didn't warp up the ramp because I knew I didn't have to worry about forcefield.
The difference between my 4gate and the 4gate of the dude you went up against may not look that different, but that's the difference of a master level 4gate and a mid diamond. You can really take the build into any level of play (in pvp) depending on the level of execution, and understanding the timings of the popular formats of this build are crucial in learning how to defend, delay, or do do yourself.
While I have come close to losing vs these quick robo builds, (while 4gating) it is usually just my fault for not judging the travel distance across maps and making proxy pylons etc.
|
Thanks for that post chipman, it pretty much explains all the problems I've found with this build the higher and higher I climb up the ladder. The switch to 3-gate Star is auto-loss and impossible to scout.
The other issue I'm having now is like you described, I can't win the micro battle. My Zealots are taking Zealot + Stalker damage and my Immortals are fighting just to get shots off on the Stalkers. It usually ends up with them warping in 4 Zealots mid-fight to convincingly win the battle and subsequently the game.
|
I was just put onto this build by a friend after mentioning how bad my pvp has become that it's almost an auto-loss (and because I hate pvp "LOL I BUILD DA 4GATE" metagame of the matchup)
But I've just been giving it a go in 3v3s and yes I know it's not meant for it, but this actually does really nicely in team games - having a little extra gas early helps, and if you go down the path of many immortals it can really help the team.
Going to start it up in 1s tomorrow Thanks for the guide kcdc
|
On April 09 2011 21:03 chipman wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Not only would I break this with 4gate. ( 6 stalkers 5 zealots at 6:15-6:20 already fight at the top of a ramp).. What if the other player simply changed his tech path to 3 gate stargate after chasing your probe out, and starts spending those cboost on void rays and attacks while you're desperately squeezing out zealot immortal and then getting an observer while saving gas for colossi tech.... You're pretty much flipping a coin. If you try and get the observer out to scout with your immortal won't come even close to in time for a possible 4gate attack. From the replay i watched " zeal_immo_4_gate__[Star2.org] " Your opponent did a list of things that just added up to his 4gate being a failure: + Show Spoiler +
-No pairing of workers
-late first zealot
-extremely early third pylon, for an attacking 4gate
-didn't make any additional units out of his first gate after the first stalker (you can easily squeeze out a second stalker)
-cut his probes late
-gave you a zealot for free
-didn't put pylons at your ramp to warp up immediately
-didn't warp in units as often as he could, especially early on when having 4 units 15 seconds earlier makes all the difference in a pvp
-had semi poor micro, he practically walked into your zealots and immortals with his stalkers
-he just randomly decides to engage with his 4gate rush.. He doesn't wait for his warp cycle or try on and reduce the damage he takes with proper micro etc, he just randomly starts pushing up the ramp while not even warping in men at the right time, and when a good portion of his army is dead/missing a lot of heal he decides it's time to warp in..
Just going to re-emphasize that 4gate has 6 stalkers and 5 zealots around 6:15.. with another round of whatever units he wants (2 stalker 2 zealot, or 4zealot) around 6:50.. if you do the math that's 15 units compared to the 8 units he brought into your base at 6:45..
Idk. I think a good 4gater would break this, or someone who like you wants a 12 minute game timing attack, but scouts your robo going down before your stalker finishes, and knows if he builds a stargate with economy and attacks with a few void ray, 3gate army around 11:00 he wins. The only build I see this being strong against is poorly executed 4gate build orders, and hopeful gimmicky dt play. It could crush blink stalkers, if you have enough random immortals out before colossus, otherwise blink stalkers might just waste you, not to mention even then it comes down to a battle of brute force vs superior mobility... and often turns into a hard to win base trade vs units with higher mobility. But yeah in this replay at 6:25 + Show Spoiler +you have 3 zealots a stalker and an immortal, and unfortunately 6 stakers, 5 zealots pretty much crush right through that and in 35 seconds you're going to be looking at another 4 zealots before money even gets tight for the 4gater, just massively outproducing you trying to chrono out immortals and 2gate zealots... and that is the all-important timing to keep in mind. At this point in time he will kill all of your zealots microing his stalkers away from your immortal attacking his zealots, he will kill your zealots before you kill his because 5zealots and 6 stalkers have superior dps vs 3 zealots a stalker and an immortal with even remotely proper micro, and now he's got 1-2 zealots attacking your last remaining immortal/stalker as your second immortal finishes up, so does another wave of 4 zealots right next to his army, making it a breeze to reposition. Not only that he can damage your zealots as they warp in and you really can't do jack about his warping in units. You don't have a second gas so you can't really squeeze a sentry out anywhere, not forgetting to mention that it's pointless to get a sentry out since your build relies just camping in your base with at most one immortal and one or two stalkers, a protoss can easily protect his pylons vs such a low count of ranged units, and then start warping 4 zealots up the ramp with the ramp vision trick. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=201964 Take a look at this. While I didn't flawlessly execute the build order (sliiightly slow 3rd probe on gas cost me a few seconds, sliiightly slow pylons at ramp and semmmmi bad micro with ramp battle) I just hopped into a game real quick after making this post to show you the timings I'm talking about, comparing them to those in the replays that I watched. I didn't warp up the ramp because I knew I didn't have to worry about forcefield. The difference between my 4gate and the 4gate of the dude you went up against may not look that different, but that's the difference of a master level 4gate and a mid diamond. You can really take the build into any level of play (in pvp) depending on the level of execution, and understanding the timings of the popular formats of this build are crucial in learning how to defend, delay, or do do yourself. While I have come close to losing vs these quick robo builds, (while 4gating) it is usually just my fault for not judging the travel distance across maps and making proxy pylons etc.
That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
|
On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote:
That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate?
|
On April 12 2011 08:19 gr8ape wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote:
That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate?
A more obvious giveaway is the way their force looks. 2 stalker 1 zealot is a good indication that 4 more stalkers at 5:45 are coming.
|
On April 12 2011 08:26 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:19 gr8ape wrote:On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote:
That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate? A more obvious giveaway is the way their force looks. 2 stalker 1 zealot is a good indication that 4 more stalkers at 5:45 are coming.
thats much harder to scout in time though
and I dont know why you say that, if anything it might suggest he wants to delay your proxy?
|
On April 12 2011 08:19 gr8ape wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote:
That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate?
To hit that super early timing, they have to cut probes early, use only 2 chrono on something other than WG research, no second gas, and no third pylon before 3 extra gates. You should always keep track of how aggressive your opponent can be given what you've scouted. This opening is pretty strong defensively once you get to ~6 minutes. If their build can attack well before that, you need to adjust.
|
On March 29 2011 08:35 LagT_T wrote:Thanks kcdc, I never get tired of your BO's One question tho, is this autoloss vs stargate play?
Not auto-loss, but you're definitely behind. Phoenixes are really good against immortals.
|
Ive had someone rush void rays when I did this. Insta-loss indeed. (I was practicing the build and doing it blindly)
|
On April 12 2011 08:32 gr8ape wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:26 tehemperorer wrote:On April 12 2011 08:19 gr8ape wrote:On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote:
That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate? A more obvious giveaway is the way their force looks. 2 stalker 1 zealot is a good indication that 4 more stalkers at 5:45 are coming. thats much harder to scout in time though and I dont know why you say that, if anything it might suggest he wants to delay your proxy?
Totally my mistake I basically misread the post. What I said only applies to what type of 4 gate to expect, not whether or not the opponent is 4gating.
Look for 12 gate (compare building HP to yours to find out if its earlier or later), then two pylons, then the placing of the cybercore. If he saves his CB on his nexus after using 2 (compare to how many you have used and ur energy), that's a sign that some 4gate variant is coming.
|
On April 12 2011 09:36 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:19 gr8ape wrote:On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote:
That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate? To hit that super early timing, they have to cut probes early, use only 2 chrono on something other than WG research, no second gas, and no third pylon before 3 extra gates. You should always keep track of how aggressive your opponent can be given what you've scouted. This opening is pretty strong defensively once you get to ~6 minutes. If their build can attack well before that, you need to adjust.
Wondering how you would adjust accordingly, I've scouted them last on 4 player maps so 2 gating isn't an option even after pylon scout. Say your plan was to open with this, but scouted 10 gate 4 gate as opposed to 12, what do you advise?
|
yea the 2 stalkers and zealot is a really good indication
|
On April 12 2011 13:28 CaptainHaz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:36 kcdc wrote:On April 12 2011 08:19 gr8ape wrote:On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote:
That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate? To hit that super early timing, they have to cut probes early, use only 2 chrono on something other than WG research, no second gas, and no third pylon before 3 extra gates. You should always keep track of how aggressive your opponent can be given what you've scouted. This opening is pretty strong defensively once you get to ~6 minutes. If their build can attack well before that, you need to adjust. Wondering how you would adjust accordingly, I've scouted them last on 4 player maps so 2 gating isn't an option even after pylon scout. Say your plan was to open with this, but scouted 10 gate 4 gate as opposed to 12, what do you advise?
The 10 gate 4gate is really strong but is entirely contingent on the forward pylon not being threatened. If that forward pylon is gone, the 10 gate timing loses it's 15 second advantage and the player is now behind because you cut more probes when ramping up for a 10 gate 4gate. Advice: Try and find the forward pylon, it should be placed close by, as late as 5:00 minutes into the game, but usually a little before that because of how income/supply ends up working out.
|
On April 12 2011 13:28 CaptainHaz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 09:36 kcdc wrote:On April 12 2011 08:19 gr8ape wrote:On April 12 2011 05:55 kcdc wrote:
That was a lot of text, but basically, don't use this opening against the super fast 4 gates. This holds 6 minute 4 gates, but it doesn't hold 5:40-5:50 4 gates. If you know how to scout the difference, you'll be fine.
10 and 13 chrono on the nexus into 4gate? To hit that super early timing, they have to cut probes early, use only 2 chrono on something other than WG research, no second gas, and no third pylon before 3 extra gates. You should always keep track of how aggressive your opponent can be given what you've scouted. This opening is pretty strong defensively once you get to ~6 minutes. If their build can attack well before that, you need to adjust. Wondering how you would adjust accordingly, I've scouted them last on 4 player maps so 2 gating isn't an option even after pylon scout. Say your plan was to open with this, but scouted 10 gate 4 gate as opposed to 12, what do you advise?
For K4G, I like to cut probes at 20, take 2 probes off gas after 100, and chrono out as many zealots as possible while adding gates. You're too far behind on WG research to defend with warpgates, so you need to just have enough stuff ahead of time to weather the storm till WG finishes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
