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On March 18 2011 12:21 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 01:12 kcdc wrote:
After a lot more testing, I don't think this build stops a 100% perfect 4 gate where they warp in their first round at your ramp. With only 1 stalker, you don't have the map control to prevent a proxy pylon at your ramp, so if your scout probe sees an idle nexus, no third pylon and 70+ saved chrono energy, I'd recommend going defensive 4 gate. Of course, the only 4 gates that this build can't stop are 100% scoutable and give you sufficient time to respond.
I consider this to be an anti-robo build that's safe against 4 gates (assuming you respond to scouting information) because it gives you immortals, which when combined with a warp prism, are awesome against colossi. It's okay against blink openings, and it's bad against stargate openings. Bit confused here, so are you saying the build in the OP no longer works against a 'perfect' 4 gate? If so, how does a defensive 4 gate work (sorry i never seen it before)?
I'm saying it doesn't work against a standard 20 probe all-in 4 gate if they place their initial proxy pylon very aggressively.
But this doesn't make the opening bad because a 20 probe all-in 4 gate is scoutable. If you see one of:
(1) more than 2 chronos used on something other than WG research,
(2) continued activity on the nexus when you're past 22 supply
(3) a third pylon (BIG sign because it won't get cancelled)
(4) a second assimilator (make sure to see whether it completes--4 gaters fake a second assimilator frequently)
then you're safe to use this build. The only 4 gate it doesn't defend is an optimal all-in 4 gate, so if they're doing one of those things, you'll be safe. If you see none of those, get 4 gates and defend your ramp with a sentry.
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On March 19 2011 14:21 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 12:21 bankai wrote:On March 18 2011 01:12 kcdc wrote:
After a lot more testing, I don't think this build stops a 100% perfect 4 gate where they warp in their first round at your ramp. With only 1 stalker, you don't have the map control to prevent a proxy pylon at your ramp, so if your scout probe sees an idle nexus, no third pylon and 70+ saved chrono energy, I'd recommend going defensive 4 gate. Of course, the only 4 gates that this build can't stop are 100% scoutable and give you sufficient time to respond.
I consider this to be an anti-robo build that's safe against 4 gates (assuming you respond to scouting information) because it gives you immortals, which when combined with a warp prism, are awesome against colossi. It's okay against blink openings, and it's bad against stargate openings. Bit confused here, so are you saying the build in the OP no longer works against a 'perfect' 4 gate? If so, how does a defensive 4 gate work (sorry i never seen it before)? I'm saying it doesn't work against a standard 20 probe all-in 4 gate if they place their initial proxy pylon very aggressively. But this doesn't make the opening bad because a 20 probe all-in 4 gate is scoutable. If you see one of: (1) more than 2 chronos used on something other than WG research, (2) continued activity on the nexus when you're past 22 supply (3) a third pylon (BIG sign because it won't get cancelled) (4) a second assimilator (make sure to see whether it completes--4 gaters fake a second assimilator frequently) then you're safe to use this build. The only 4 gate it doesn't defend is an optimal all-in 4 gate, so if they're doing one of those things, you'll be safe. If you see none of those, get 4 gates and defend your ramp with a sentry.
Thanks kcdc! I think its an awesome BO you have come up with and im trying to practice with it and adopt as a standard since most PvP is 4gating anyway.
One thing that came up was I thought someone was 4 gating but instead they 3 gate blinked. Does this build counter 3 gate blink??
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I just played a weird 4 gate-all in that came at around 5:30/5:40 with around 1 zealot and 5 stalkers. That was really strange, I really never seen it before.
I do know that it was at the 11 minute mark though. I'll go find the replay.
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Canada13405 Posts
On March 21 2011 10:05 iChau wrote:
I just played a weird 4 gate-all in that came at around 5:30/5:40 with around 1 zealot and 5 stalkers. That was really strange, I really never seen it before.
I do know that it was at the 11 minute mark though. I'll go find the replay.
What was there at the 11 minute mark? and also the 5:30/5:40 1 zeal 5 stalker attack is normal for an aggressive 4gate.
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Meant 11 gate. And actually, no it's not. Standard 4 gate all-in is at the 5:45 mark with the standard 1 zealot 6 stalker 12 gate 4 gate all-in.
You have to factor in proxy pylon set-up, w8ing for your 2nd stalker (due to 3 stalker opening), map distances, etc.
However, if everything goes right somehow, it's at the 5:45.
This build came earlier though, it was roughly around 5:30 ish, which means your immortal does not come out in time.
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Found the replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/152554-1v1-protoss-metalopolis
Apparently, it's a 3 gate and it attacks at around 5:20 with 1 zealot 5 stalkers iirc.
I have really bad memory though, and I probably got some of those wrong. However, he attacked before the immortal could even come out.
I was delayed by roughly ~15 seconds on my build though, however, it would have not mattered because he actually attacked with 5:20, where this build can only just start the immortal. The things he did that made it faster was skipping chrono on stalker, and he actually skipped the 4th gate for a faster stalker and iirc it timed quite well with the 3 gates.
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Day9's current daily made me think of this build the entire time. He basically recreated this build from scratch, but skipped the stalker and got 3 gateways out xD
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On March 21 2011 10:27 iChau wrote:Found the replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/152554-1v1-protoss-metalopolisApparently, it's a 3 gate and it attacks at around 5:20 with 1 zealot 5 stalkers iirc. I have really bad memory though, and I probably got some of those wrong. However, he attacked before the immortal could even come out. I was delayed by roughly ~15 seconds on my build though, however, it would have not mattered because he actually attacked with 5:20, where this build can only just start the immortal. The things he did that made it faster was skipping chrono on stalker, and he actually skipped the 4th gate for a faster stalker and iirc it timed quite well with the 3 gates.
those stalkers really only started to warp in 7 seconds faster than a good 4 gate 1 gas (5:23 v. 5:30) in a trade for 1 less stalker/1 less gate. The fact that he got his pylon right outside your base probably made it seem a bit faster than it really was.
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On March 09 2011 15:59 Strivers wrote:
So whats the adjustment if you scout K4G?
i would recomend sending your first zlot towards his base if you scout a gate on 10.
the k4g i do doesnt build any units until warp gate tech is finished, so by sending your first zealot you force him to either wall in with a gateway or build a zealot.
if he walls in you just have to kill his proxy probe.....he is walled in and it will screw him royally.
if he builds a zealot you will delay his rush significantly and you should still be able to do damage.
if he doesnt see it coming you can kill some probes or if he is really bad, the single pylon that powers all of his buildings and insta win.
normally if i see a gate on 10 and he takes gas i just build 2 gates and send some zealots at him. hasnt failed me yet.
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Canada13405 Posts
On March 21 2011 10:20 iChau wrote:
Meant 11 gate. And actually, no it's not. Standard 4 gate all-in is at the 5:45 mark with the standard 1 zealot 6 stalker 12 gate 4 gate all-in.
You have to factor in proxy pylon set-up, w8ing for your 2nd stalker (due to 3 stalker opening), map distances, etc.
However, if everything goes right somehow, it's at the 5:45.
This build came earlier though, it was roughly around 5:30 ish, which means your immortal does not come out in time.
I saw the replay now and see what you meant by 5:30 mark. That is quicker than expected, though I thought you meant he was at your ramp at ~5:30 so thats where my confusion came from 
Yeah but like somebody else already said a 4 gate would have hit at almost the same time as this attack though I guess this attack is a bit safer in the sense that its easier to get to your ramp with that extra stalker.
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On March 21 2011 12:45 Noak3 wrote:
Day9's current daily made me think of this build the entire time. He basically recreated this build from scratch, but skipped the stalker and got 3 gateways out xD
Yeah, that's better in terms of combat value, but you can't deny scouting. If your opponent sees a robo that early, they can 1 gate FE and win every time. A lot of people run their probe out early assuming the 2nd unit is a stalker, so it can still work. Just something to consider.
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nice build sir. I love your 1 Gate FE PvT, but I was wondering whether you could use a similar build against a 1 base terran, especially one that opens 3 rax. I'm theory crafting here, but if you adjust your unit composition , maybe cut a zealot and replace it with a sentry or two , do you think it is till viable?
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On March 22 2011 01:23 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 12:45 Noak3 wrote:
Day9's current daily made me think of this build the entire time. He basically recreated this build from scratch, but skipped the stalker and got 3 gateways out xD Yeah, that's better in terms of combat value, but you can't deny scouting. If your opponent sees a robo that early, they can 1 gate FE and win every time. A lot of people run their probe out early assuming the 2nd unit is a stalker, so it can still work. Just something to consider.
Skipping the stalker sucks for another major reason. You won't have anything to snipe probe's with at any time. This makes it harder to force their proxy pylon further away and even worse, you won't be able to stop him from making pylons INSIDE your base while the push happens (something I've had done to me which can be hard to deal with for a lack of stalkers). Also a 1 gate FE is not even the thing I really worry about with this strat, I feel comfortable enough with a colo push to have a decent shot against that. What is really worrysome however for this strat is a quick phoenix opening. Without enough stalkers and alot of gas wasted on robo + immortals there is simply no way to beat superquick phoenix.
Also I still believe this build can hold the perfect 12 gate 4 gate if you do it well. The trick is to stop that first proxy pylon from getting too close to your base which you can do because you'll be having 2 zealots 1 stalker vs their 1 zealot 1 stalker for a while.
Executing the build cleanly is difficult compared to a 4 gate so it is always difficult to test optimally. A 4 gater can't screw up that much whereas this build has neat timings that all have to work together.. Can't accidentally place your robo too late, can't forget boosting your WG exactly 3 times, can't forget the 2nd gate on time etc etc.
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Canada13405 Posts
On March 22 2011 09:11 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 01:23 kcdc wrote:On March 21 2011 12:45 Noak3 wrote:
Day9's current daily made me think of this build the entire time. He basically recreated this build from scratch, but skipped the stalker and got 3 gateways out xD Yeah, that's better in terms of combat value, but you can't deny scouting. If your opponent sees a robo that early, they can 1 gate FE and win every time. A lot of people run their probe out early assuming the 2nd unit is a stalker, so it can still work. Just something to consider. Skipping the stalker sucks for another major reason. You won't have anything to snipe probe's with at any time. This makes it harder to force their proxy pylon further away and even worse, you won't be able to stop him from making pylons INSIDE your base while the push happens (something I've had done to me which can be hard to deal with for a lack of stalkers). Also a 1 gate FE is not even the thing I really worry about with this strat, I feel comfortable enough with a colo push to have a decent shot against that. What is really worrysome however for this strat is a quick phoenix opening. Without enough stalkers and alot of gas wasted on robo + immortals there is simply no way to beat superquick phoenix. Also I still believe this build can hold the perfect 12 gate 4 gate if you do it well. The trick is to stop that first proxy pylon from getting too close to your base which you can do because you'll be having 2 zealots 1 stalker vs their 1 zealot 1 stalker for a while. Executing the build cleanly is difficult compared to a 4 gate so it is always difficult to test optimally. A 4 gater can't screw up that much whereas this build has neat timings that all have to work together.. Can't accidentally place your robo too late, can't forget boosting your WG exactly 3 times, can't forget the 2nd gate on time etc etc.
The thing with countering a 4 gate is that delaying that pylon is the only thing you need to do regardless of the build you go. so while i don't discount this build from Kcdc at all, denying that proxy is the most important thing regardless and as such as long as you can do this any build is viable. See the games between hasuobs and HuK from the TSL3 this past weekend. Three gate is able to beat 4 as long as you deny the pylon. though the nice thing is this way robo tech is well on the way much quicker giving you a good timing to kill your opponent.
holding a perfect 12 gate 4 gate is not going to work with this if you cant deny that first pylon regardless of how cleanly you execute as KCDC has already said. The problem is that the 5 stalkers with vision and range 6 can actually do more damage from the bottom of the ramp than your zealots and immortal can. T
he immortal kill zealots at roughly the same speed stalkers do and with 5 stalkers fighting to help your 4 zealots on the ramp, the robotech opponent can do little to beat you. the stalkers outrange the immortal so they can fire on the zealots fighting the warped in on the ramp zealots and make it an even exchange. When warping in round 2 of zealots the zealots on the ramp are diminished and with time the 4 gater will win a war of attrittion where the zealots can get hits on the immortal(s) and the stalkers can clean up as well. Stalkers die quickly to immortals but when the robo player is highly outnumbered there isnt much you can do. is the control required to do this high? Sure but so is the control required to try and keep the immortals alive and with good 4 gate control its far far more difficult to defend than to attck in the scenario of a "hard" four gate where the pylon at ramp goes up. Do not forget that the range of power is 8 and the range of an immortal is 5 so where a stalker can hit the pylon by the ramp the immortal cannot even though it does more damage to the pylon then a stalker (assuming the proxylon is put up in a good position).
I hope this sums up kcdcs thoughts on the "perfect" 4 gate and how this build cant really stop it.
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On March 22 2011 09:32 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 09:11 Markwerf wrote:On March 22 2011 01:23 kcdc wrote:On March 21 2011 12:45 Noak3 wrote:
Day9's current daily made me think of this build the entire time. He basically recreated this build from scratch, but skipped the stalker and got 3 gateways out xD Yeah, that's better in terms of combat value, but you can't deny scouting. If your opponent sees a robo that early, they can 1 gate FE and win every time. A lot of people run their probe out early assuming the 2nd unit is a stalker, so it can still work. Just something to consider. Skipping the stalker sucks for another major reason. You won't have anything to snipe probe's with at any time. This makes it harder to force their proxy pylon further away and even worse, you won't be able to stop him from making pylons INSIDE your base while the push happens (something I've had done to me which can be hard to deal with for a lack of stalkers). Also a 1 gate FE is not even the thing I really worry about with this strat, I feel comfortable enough with a colo push to have a decent shot against that. What is really worrysome however for this strat is a quick phoenix opening. Without enough stalkers and alot of gas wasted on robo + immortals there is simply no way to beat superquick phoenix. Also I still believe this build can hold the perfect 12 gate 4 gate if you do it well. The trick is to stop that first proxy pylon from getting too close to your base which you can do because you'll be having 2 zealots 1 stalker vs their 1 zealot 1 stalker for a while. Executing the build cleanly is difficult compared to a 4 gate so it is always difficult to test optimally. A 4 gater can't screw up that much whereas this build has neat timings that all have to work together.. Can't accidentally place your robo too late, can't forget boosting your WG exactly 3 times, can't forget the 2nd gate on time etc etc. The thing with countering a 4 gate is that delaying that pylon is the only thing you need to do regardless of the build you go. so while i don't discount this build from Kcdc at all, denying that proxy is the most important thing regardless and as such as long as you can do this any build is viable. See the games between hasuobs and HuK from the TSL3 this past weekend. Three gate is able to beat 4 as long as you deny the pylon. though the nice thing is this way robo tech is well on the way much quicker giving you a good timing to kill your opponent. holding a perfect 12 gate 4 gate is not going to work with this if you cant deny that first pylon regardless of how cleanly you execute as KCDC has already said. The problem is that the 5 stalkers with vision and range 6 can actually do more damage from the bottom of the ramp than your zealots and immortal can. T he immortal kill zealots at roughly the same speed stalkers do and with 5 stalkers fighting to help your 4 zealots on the ramp, the robotech opponent can do little to beat you. the stalkers outrange the immortal so they can fire on the zealots fighting the warped in on the ramp zealots and make it an even exchange. When warping in round 2 of zealots the zealots on the ramp are diminished and with time the 4 gater will win a war of attrittion where the zealots can get hits on the immortal(s) and the stalkers can clean up as well. Stalkers die quickly to immortals but when the robo player is highly outnumbered there isnt much you can do. is the control required to do this high? Sure but so is the control required to try and keep the immortals alive and with good 4 gate control its far far more difficult to defend than to attck in the scenario of a "hard" four gate where the pylon at ramp goes up. Do not forget that the range of power is 8 and the range of an immortal is 5 so where a stalker can hit the pylon by the ramp the immortal cannot even though it does more damage to the pylon then a stalker (assuming the proxylon is put up in a good position). I hope this sums up kcdcs thoughts on the "perfect" 4 gate and how this build cant really stop it.
I didn't understand much of that. If you have zealots against stalkers, don't fight at the ramp. That would be dumb. Also, immortals outrange pylon power. If you have an immortal that isn't busy killing units, it will kill the pylon very quickly.
The problem I've had is that I only have 1 stalker which makes it hard to venture out into the map to deny proxy pylons and kill forward probes. If they run straight at your ramp with zealot+stalker+probe and throw down 2 pylons, they're going to get to warp in units before you can kill the pylons, and if they warp in that close, they'll be in your base early enough to win. The 3 stalker opening suffers from the same problem, but with the extra stalkers, you've got a better shot to snipe the probe before it gets down 2 pylons. In my experience, the 3 stalker opening to 3-gate robo also loses to a perfectly executed 4 gate.
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On March 22 2011 01:23 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 12:45 Noak3 wrote:
Day9's current daily made me think of this build the entire time. He basically recreated this build from scratch, but skipped the stalker and got 3 gateways out xD Yeah, that's better in terms of combat value, but you can't deny scouting. If your opponent sees a robo that early, they can 1 gate FE and win every time. A lot of people run their probe out early assuming the 2nd unit is a stalker, so it can still work. Just something to consider.
There is no way to deny scouting the robo in that daily's build, he robos as soon as the core finishes very few (read: only bad) players will leave the base with their scouting probe as soon as the first zealot comes out.
Leaving the opponent all the time in the world to scout it and switch to a stalker->expand instead of a 4gate or even a stargate build.
Also fwiw you can do the 9 pylon 13gate -> scout 13gas opener with no probe cuts on most maps with good probe stacking. You do have to delay your 2nd chrono boost til 14 though.
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I have been trying this build and because of the early gas (and slight cutting of probes) I am finding it hard to adjust to what I scout in my opponent's base that is NOT a four gate. It feels like if I use this build, I am committing to something and gambling on the opponent 4gating.
So I have a few questions:
1) If I scout 2 gases, I assume this is a tech build of some sort (e.g. colossus). If they go for Colossus, what should my BO response be?
2) If I scout 2 gases, and then they go 3 Gate Blink, what should my response be?
My questions are around responding to 3 Gate Blink or 1 Base Colossus assuming I went for this 1 Gate Robo (13gas build).
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This build is bad with no ramps (taldarim).
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Great and easy opening which i now use every time in PvP!
About the 1 base collosi, has anyone tried to expand and get 5 gates + blink or +1?
That's my biggest struggle right now since i suck at microing and droping immortals on the colossus isn't really my thing (still cool and fun though)
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To drop properly make a D click on your prism when this one is moving over colossi.
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EPT
