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On February 10 2011 06:36 VanGooL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 13:37 Dsn4001 wrote:Dude, I love you kcdc. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187722.jpg) Had a game PvP with a 2700 Masters player, he does the proper 4 gate at 5:40. Manage to hold. I even go afk a bit since I know I'm so far ahead. He didnt do it right, he had only 5 units at 5:40 and not even at your door. A proper 4 gate has 1 zealot 6 stalker at 5:45-5:55 at your door, and a pylon near the ramp/ledge to warp in and go through forcefields, besides, his micro was horrible. kcdc, i was trying to do this with a friend last night, we tried for like 6-7 games con xel naga caverns, and all the time a perfect 4 gate would crush it and it was not even close, so we gave up. The huge problem was to stop the 2nd warpin of 4 zealots that comes just about the ramp/lege pylon finishes. Im no great protoss, just 2700 master, but i thought i should share what i saw. Do you have any replays against a well-microed, well-timed 4g? Thanks in advance. PD : I'm attaching one of last night replays. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187872.jpg)
Thanks for submitting a good replay with your comment. I don't have a perfect replay ready to go because it's not easy to find a game where both players play perfectly, but I can suggest some reasons you might not have had success in your testing. In that replay, I believe your opponent was opening with a gateway on 10. I won't make any promises as to whether this build is safe against a 4-gate after a gateway on 10. I do think that you could have held his attack, however, with a little better execution. Your warpgate tech was late--I don't think it finished until 6:14. His attack came at 6:00 even, at which time you could have 5 zealots, but you were at 3. You also fought at the ramp instead of backing up and fighting in the open, and perhaps most importantly, you let your immortal and stalker shoot his zealot. I think your immortal+stalker shot 4 times at a zealot which should have been 1.5 dead stalkers. I know that doesn't sound like it'd make the difference in that replay, but having 2 more zealots and killing 2 more stalkers at that first fight tips the scales significantly in the reinforcement war.
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I'm the one who 4 gated, but taking the critiques and maybe we'll try it again later.
I think the whole problem IS to stop a 10 gate 4 gate, a 13 gate 4 gate is much less all-inish and gives you more time.
I personally believe that even with that micro you suggest, its way hard to stop the reinforcements from the 4 gater, and i'm not even getting into chronoboosting your 4 warp gates(Around the 3rd warpin) when you're at 100/100, i think my last 2 reinforcements were like 20 seconds apart...
Have you had luck against a well timed-well microed (I don't know if mine is, but certainly waaaaaaaaaaay better than the 4gate the other guy posted) 10gate, 4gate?
I don't think your build is bad at all, i do think it need some serious tweaking but you're on the right path, and maybe if we all try together we can make something solid of the PvP matchup!
Thanks for reading.
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I try not to waste my time on the forums anymore, but props to people that share good info. SC2 is way farther along than sc was in that regard. This build is the best mix of tech/power, but as others point out there is potential for a slight timing mismatch. That is mainly why poster on page1 showed 20probe no stalker version of this bo...so you can have 7z/2immo ~6:20, which is basically the ideal counter composition. Of course often you will be able to get away with more probes than 20 depending on how the game goes. Not much need for reps, just image all the slight variations and timing differences possible. As for 20probe 4gate, off 13gate-scout 6stalker/1z can be done ~5:45, with 6stalker/5z before 6:20 as ideal real numbers.
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it's a pretty good idea but... how does zealot/immortal beat zealot/stalker? lol
the 4-gater doesn't even have to engage with his zealots right away. he can just freely pick off enemy zealots until he greatly outnumbers him.
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damn, this is solid. as fun as 4gating every game is, (all i play are pvps), i think i may change it up with this a little. hope to see positive results
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On February 10 2011 08:33 lasershark wrote:
it's a pretty good idea but... how does zealot/immortal beat zealot/stalker? lol
the 4-gater doesn't even have to engage with his zealots right away. he can just freely pick off enemy zealots until he greatly outnumbers him.
Because an immortal does 50 damage. Can a stalker do that?
Also, an immortal = 2 stalkers, but the immortal doesn't have it's dps "cut in half when it's shields are down. The 2 stalkers however, lose 50% dps when one goes down.
It doesn't matter if he tries to focus the immortals, that just means the zealots get free shots because immortals are powerful tanks. Also, it's quite hard to kite a unit that has 1 less range, even if it's faster.
Pretend for example, your stalker attacks an immortal 4 times, but if the immortal strikes once, then it has done 10 more damage. The stalker only does a pathetic 14 damage vs armored, but hardened shields allow it to be 10 only.
Also, immortals don't over-kill.
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I'm liking 1gate1robo a lot better than 2gaterobo. My micro is really good so I have no problems and it works nicely against a marauder/tank/thor build too. I also hate 4gate/PvP but this makes it fun again.
2600 diamond
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On February 10 2011 07:14 VanGooL wrote:
I think the whole problem IS to stop a 10 gate 4 gate, a 13 gate 4 gate is much less all-inish and gives you more time.
but 10gate is like : Ok guy i'm going to all in you, get ready.
Meh, quite easy.
12/13 gate is more sneaky, so more effective.
Edit: @kcdc: your build seems cool, but i ffel you need a better/even micro.
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So what?
What are you going to do if you see im going for a 10 gate 4 gate? A forge?
If you went 13 gate and you try to 4gate you're already behind, and i won't need much micro to roflstomp you.
The thing about 4 gate in PvP is even scouted, you ALMOST can't stop it if you don't do the same.
The only thing i see "viable" is to chrono a shitload of sentries and double ff the ramp (top and bottom), but if you screw it up you have no firepower at all...
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On February 10 2011 09:34 VanGooL wrote:
If you went 13 gate and you try to 4gate you're already behind, and i won't need much micro to roflstomp you.
i don't think so :/
On February 10 2011 09:34 VanGooL wrote:
The thing about 4 gate in PvP is even scouted, you ALMOST can't stop it if you don't do the same.
agree. Same for 2gates
Btw builds that rely on fast warp can be held by BO that make units (from 3 gates, 4th later) and warp a bit slower, then upgrade warp come and you get a free production cycle.
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The thing with 2 gate is, if it's proxied, you can defend it with gate forge(If it's in base you can even destroy the gates in the process), and if it isn't, going 2gate yourself stops it cold because of the distance between bases, even in SoW. It isn't like you can throw a forge when i have 4 gates because i can easily expand and you just sank 450 mins into the toilet.
In a 10-gate 4 gate, the first gateway is almost always active, producing zealot-stalker-stalker. That removes the advantage you could have due to the distance between bases, and me getting gate and core asap gets me wg earlier which makes everything earlier.
Try to do what i did in my replay with a 13 gate, and then show me the real-life timings.
Everytime someone went for 13 gate 4 gate and i went for 10 gate, it was easier for me.
If both go 10 gate 4 gate, then it's where mindgames occur, generally the defending player has the advantage.
PS : I apologize if my grammar isn't perfect, english isn't my main language. If you don't understand something please let me know.
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VanGooL, 10 gate is an obvious sign your going to attack very early. If close positions (LT, Steps, Metal), the zelot could probaby kill a probe or two from a 12-13 gate. But the opponent will still have a probe or two advantage and eventually prevail with defenders advantage and better economy.
Im sure if scouted, gate-robo-gate wouldnt be used.
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Good build, I ended up trying it last night opponent around 3k masters. He went 3 gates and a robo and i was 2 gates and a robo. I actually expanded while he was on one base. He attacked me with 2 ranged collossus while i had 2 collo without range 2 immortals a prism and some gateway stuff. I just had my immortals loaded up in the warp prism and dropped them behind his zealots and stalkers at the feet of his collossus. they just took out the collossus on their own extremely quickly.
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On February 10 2011 09:57 VanGooL wrote:
The thing with 2 gate is, if it's proxied, you can defend it with gate forge(If it's in base you can even destroy the gates in the process), and if it isn't, going 2gate yourself stops it cold because of the distance between bases, even in SoW. It isn't like you can throw a forge when i have 4 gates because i can easily expand and you just sank 450 mins into the toilet.
In a 10-gate 4 gate, the first gateway is almost always active, producing zealot-stalker-stalker. That removes the advantage you could have due to the distance between bases, and me getting gate and core asap gets me wg earlier which makes everything earlier.
Try to do what i did in my replay with a 13 gate, and then show me the real-life timings.
Everytime someone went for 13 gate 4 gate and i went for 10 gate, it was easier for me.
If both go 10 gate 4 gate, then it's where mindgames occur, generally the defending player has the advantage.
PS : I apologize if my grammar isn't perfect, english isn't my main language. If you don't understand something please let me know.
12/13 4gate > 10 4gate simply because of the fact that what winds up limiting your warp in speed is how fast you get your 4 gates up, which is obviously facilitated by a better economy. If getting wg ASAP was the main goal of the 1 gas 4gate people wouldnt use 3 chronos on probes and 1 on a stalker.
Also against 10 gate you can just mirror what he does and win by simple economy
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Not only do i get an earlier gateway, but i also cut probes at 20.
There's no way you can hold an all in 4 gate by getting 13 gate and having more probes than i do, assuming we both are at the same skill level. Pylon at ramp not only removes defender advantage but also removes FF.
if you overmake probes that doesn't give you an advantage against an all-in, it's more of a disadvantage. That's the whole point of this, stopping an all-in 4 gate not doing the same while standing in a defensive position, and be better off to tech once the agression has been fend off.
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On February 10 2011 10:07 VanGooL wrote:
Not only do i get an earlier gateway, but i also cut probes at 20.
There's no way you can hold an all in 4 gate by getting 13 gate and having more probes than i do, assuming we both are at the same skill level. Pylon at ramp not only removes defender advantage but also removes FF.
if you overmake probes that doesn't give you an advantage against an all-in, it's more of a disadvantage. That's the whole point of this, stopping an all-in 4 gate not doing the same while standing in a defensive position, and be better off to tech once the agression has been fend off.
Are you on US server? We can run a test off of 10 gate if you want. What's your id.#?
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SsTVanGooL.831
I'd be happy to!
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at 5:30 i have 2 zealots and 4 stalkers down your ramp and i have 1 stalker walking halfway between the bases. This from a 12 gate opening.
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EPT
