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Strivers
United States358 Posts
2 chronos for nexus, rest for warp gate 10/10 = gateway core asap wg tech stop probes at 19/19 throw up 3 gates asap 1 stalker asap 1 proxy pylon 1 proxy pylon to warp up enemy ramp I think this is what everyone fears in PVP, not so much 13/gate 4 gate which can be beat by 2 force fields too.. | ||
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oweng
10 Posts
It was even successful in a game on Steppes where a proxy Gateway Zealot rush killed a lot of my probes before I stopped it and then they switched to 4Gates with a huge econ advantage. With the early Immortal I was still able to hold. | ||
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Acridice
United States298 Posts
I either build a second gateway in my base, or build a proxy forge/gateway near their base and then chrono zealots out of my first gateway while the proxies build. Then I push into their base with cannons and zealots. Here, I show you. This is actually a very typical reaction I do when I see a 10 gate. 10 Gate Being Punished | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
Kcdc, really nice job yet again! | ||
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GrassEater
Sweden417 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137477-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war 12 gate 4 gate, attacks your ramp at 5:30 | ||
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JJoNeEightY
United States509 Posts
On February 10 2011 18:28 Strzyga wrote: This is a strategy I enjoy using in PvP games for a long time now. I, however, had modified it in a way that has proven exceptionally beneficial in my experience. I changed the build order slightly to get the build running for a good timing push or effective counter attack. By switching up the build order, you can get 4-6 zealots and BOTH immortals out by roughly 5:30-5:45 if performed flawlessly, all without cutting any probes. The 4-6 varies depending on how safe you feel early on and whether you produce your first zealot earlier or later. I didn't include the food count, but the desired order is there. You'll also note I purposely supply block myself momentarily by chronoboosting first. This is largely my personal preference and I have found it to be no detriment whatsoever compared to doing a pylon on 9. Just place everything the instant you can afford it. And remember that your goal is to get to the robo. Cut other structures and zealots/stalkers/sentries in so far as you feel safe. Chronoboost Pylon Gateway Gas Pylon Cybernetics Pylon Robo You want to chronoboost probes exclusively, then start saving chronoboost once you start the robo. Keep a steady output of zealots the moment you can afford them without cutting structures. Use your saved Chronoboost exclusively for the Immortals until they both come out. That's pretty much it. Throw down additional gateways as you can afford them. Obviously, you'll want to get the warpgate tech, but with this build you can delay it a fairly significant amount of time. Now I have my own little tactical twist that I also add for bonus kick, but it is by no means necessary and may even be a tad risky depending on the situation. BONUS: build your robo outside of your base. If you want to be a tad cheesy, you can proxy it closer to his base. If you want to be more on the safe side, then the important thing is only that it is across from your entrance out of view of your opponent's path. Exact location depends on map and positioning. Be creative. The idea here is two fold. 1) it hides your tech 2) if he attacks first, his stalkers will be taking up the rear. Your zealots will block off your ramp and occupy his zealots at the front, while your immortals come out from behind (where the stalkers will inevitably be) and take THEM up the proverbial "rear." You'll have done enough damage in that short time before he can bring reinforcements that everything after that will be cleanup. If he doesn't attack, you still have your effective composition and an effective timing push that can easily be game ending. If it doesn't end the game, you'll still be in good position to transition through mid game. This has also proven very useful against both Zerg and Terran, depending on their builds. Scouting is key. Weaknesses of this build should be fairly obvious (air and mass zealots), so scout, scout, scout to make sure it's viable. I've also adapted this build to a large number of circumstances where it held up even to builds that many would think could beat it with usually only subtle tweaks (such as sim-city and good micro) that let it function pretty much with little or no hiccups. If anyone has questions feel free to ask. It's late here and I'm getting ready to go to sleep, so I'm probably not in my best frame of mind to make clear, coherent sentences. Also, this is a PvP thread, so I didn't elaborate on using this against T or Z. If you have any questions on those match-ups, let me know and I can go into depth on those. Peace! This is absolute nonsense. If you can show me a replay where you have 6 zealots and 2 immortals out by 5:30 gametime I will drop out of school, quit my job, say goodbye to all of my friends and family, and then immediately fake my death so that I may labor as a slave for you for the rest of my lifetime. I will spend the next 70 years making your bed, doing your dishes, doing your homework (I'm exceptionally good with numbers, I've been told I am a phenomenal writer, my programming skills are a bit weak but I have a working knowledge of C++ and Java, I have a nice smile and can bullshit my way out of anything else, I've got you covered), doing your job (this may be difficult depending on what kind of work you get into, but I will do my absolute best to assist you in whatever way I can to help you maintain economic self-reliance) raising your children (I'm a fantastic teacher and an upstanding moral citizen), performing sexual favors (without going into detail, I'm excellent in this area as well), or anything else that may please you. Seriously. Despite my low post count, I lurk around here quite a bit. Tons of people make these ridiculous claims about being able to have incredible numbers of units out by certain points in the game and I've found that it usually simply isn't possible. I don't use any of these build order creators that people seem to covet, and I'm not saying that they can't be useful tools, but if they are telling you that you can pull things like this off, you have to take their results with a grain of salt. I guess I came off as sort of upset there... That was supposed to be more humorous than anything else but it ended up sounding like a rant, I'm not bashing on you or anything, just saying that it would make things a lot nicer around here if people stopped making claims like this without first testing them. Onto the topic at hand... This build is excellent! You have found the perfect answer to the dreaded 1 gas 20 probe 4 gate that plagues PvP at almost every level. It is easy to execute (none of this hyper-tuned adding and pulling of single probes off of and onto gas at multiple points in the game, which frees up our minds to focus on where the game is going), maintains the illusion of being aforementioned scary 4 gate until the point where you can deny scouting (forcing your opponent to prepare for the all in and not make some strong economic or very fast tech play), and doesn't lock you into one particular path (you have sooooo many options after holding off the 4 gate all in, you will be very far ahead on tech, ahead economically, generally able to expand safely, and very close to your opponent in terms of pure fighting power!) If you misread him and it is an economic variant of the 4 gate, you will be on an even footing economically, lightyears ahead in tech, and ahead in army power, again, giving you a ridiculous amount of options as to how to proceed. Seriously, it's brilliant! I use your 1 gate expand vs Terran build all the time as well, you have a great mind for this sort of thing and I just wanted to thank you for your contributions to ze community. I am no longer filled with dread and dismay when I see a fellow protoss on the loading screen. Kudos to you Sir, Kudos to you! | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On February 10 2011 05:21 CecilSunkure wrote: I don't see why you only have 2 gates. You have an accumulation of resources off of two gates and a robo that could easily be put into pylons and zealots. I went ahead and made two build orders: 3 Gate Voidray and 3 Gate Immortal. After a lot of tweaking I'm able to get the voidray out at 6:15, and the immortal can come out just before 6 minutes. Both scenarios leave you with 1 zealot 1 stalker + 3 warpin units and 2 chronoboosts (the 3 gate immortal build can be slightly modified to allow a zealot to be built while the immortal is being built, but I think you have to delay one of your warpins slightly, but it may be worth it). If you allow the 4 gater to get a very close proxy pylon, this becomes very risky. After about 20 games with a fellow Master level toss named CCalms, I decided that unless you have some way of forcing the enemy to proxy their pylon somewhere else other than at your ramp you have a very good chance of loosing. Since this is rather hard with only a zealot and a stalker I plan to try and create an aggressive opening that transitions into either immortals or voidrays (steal adel opening perhaps??). 3 Gate Voidray and 3 Gate Immortal: http://www.mediafire.com/?sv1oc7nw3gp7bpl My immortal comes out faster than kcdc's and you are left with another warpgate to use. You also scout at 9 with both variations. However, I don't believe it's possible to have a voidray come out with 3 warped in units from 3 warpgates any faster than 6 minutes 10 seconds. The gas timings may look a bit difficult, but if you just practice both builds a little bit it becomes simple; the stargate build requires 150 vespene after you order a stalker and warpgate tech. Just make sure you end up with exactly 150 vespene and 150 minerals - if you have more than enough vespene that is less minerals for you which means delayed warpgates. For example: in the robo build you can very easily put 1 probe into the vespene after the first gate, and 2 more in at 17 supply (18 if scout probe doesn't die), and end up with the correct timing. [In the stargate build] Once you lay down your stargate you temporarily don't need any vespene, so pull off probes from vespene so you have at least 18 mining minerals so you can get those two gates and a pylon down asap. | ||
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Roblicious
United States64 Posts
I have been 2 gating into 4 gate in all of my pvps lately and its been working great but last night I lost to someone who had 2 sentries out when I showed up with my push around the 6 minute mark and he just got immortals out and stomped me. Before that I used to do 2/3 gate robo with 2 gas and 3 sentries to hold off the ramp til my immortals came out. | ||
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GrassEater
Sweden417 Posts
On February 11 2011 04:21 Roblicious wrote: Man I would feel so much safer getting that sentry instead of stalker first and then using the 75 minerals saved to get that 2nd gas going and putting a probe or 2 in there just to make up for the 50 gas difference of a sentry compared to a stalker, that FF 'should' buy you enough time to get the immortal and stalker out and you should have enough for another FF by the time the 4 gate comes. I have been 2 gating into 4 gate in all of my pvps lately and its been working great but last night I lost to someone who had 2 sentries out when I showed up with my push around the 6 minute mark and he just got immortals out and stomped me. Before that I used to do 2/3 gate robo with 2 gas and 3 sentries to hold off the ramp til my immortals came out. You cant get sentry firth on most maps. because 1 zealot+1 stalker > 1 zealot+ 1 sentry, and you can forcefield once to keep the zealot stalker out but then you have a sentry without forcefield that does very low dps. | ||
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ppterodactyl
33 Posts
On February 11 2011 02:50 JJoNeEightY wrote: + Show Spoiler + On February 10 2011 18:28 Strzyga wrote: This is a strategy I enjoy using in PvP games for a long time now. I, however, had modified it in a way that has proven exceptionally beneficial in my experience. I changed the build order slightly to get the build running for a good timing push or effective counter attack. By switching up the build order, you can get 4-6 zealots and BOTH immortals out by roughly 5:30-5:45 if performed flawlessly, all without cutting any probes. The 4-6 varies depending on how safe you feel early on and whether you produce your first zealot earlier or later. I didn't include the food count, but the desired order is there. You'll also note I purposely supply block myself momentarily by chronoboosting first. This is largely my personal preference and I have found it to be no detriment whatsoever compared to doing a pylon on 9. Just place everything the instant you can afford it. And remember that your goal is to get to the robo. Cut other structures and zealots/stalkers/sentries in so far as you feel safe. Chronoboost Pylon Gateway Gas Pylon Cybernetics Pylon Robo You want to chronoboost probes exclusively, then start saving chronoboost once you start the robo. Keep a steady output of zealots the moment you can afford them without cutting structures. Use your saved Chronoboost exclusively for the Immortals until they both come out. That's pretty much it. Throw down additional gateways as you can afford them. Obviously, you'll want to get the warpgate tech, but with this build you can delay it a fairly significant amount of time. Now I have my own little tactical twist that I also add for bonus kick, but it is by no means necessary and may even be a tad risky depending on the situation. BONUS: build your robo outside of your base. If you want to be a tad cheesy, you can proxy it closer to his base. If you want to be more on the safe side, then the important thing is only that it is across from your entrance out of view of your opponent's path. Exact location depends on map and positioning. Be creative. The idea here is two fold. 1) it hides your tech 2) if he attacks first, his stalkers will be taking up the rear. Your zealots will block off your ramp and occupy his zealots at the front, while your immortals come out from behind (where the stalkers will inevitably be) and take THEM up the proverbial "rear." You'll have done enough damage in that short time before he can bring reinforcements that everything after that will be cleanup. If he doesn't attack, you still have your effective composition and an effective timing push that can easily be game ending. If it doesn't end the game, you'll still be in good position to transition through mid game. This has also proven very useful against both Zerg and Terran, depending on their builds. Scouting is key. Weaknesses of this build should be fairly obvious (air and mass zealots), so scout, scout, scout to make sure it's viable. I've also adapted this build to a large number of circumstances where it held up even to builds that many would think could beat it with usually only subtle tweaks (such as sim-city and good micro) that let it function pretty much with little or no hiccups. If anyone has questions feel free to ask. It's late here and I'm getting ready to go to sleep, so I'm probably not in my best frame of mind to make clear, coherent sentences. Also, this is a PvP thread, so I didn't elaborate on using this against T or Z. If you have any questions on those match-ups, let me know and I can go into depth on those. Peace! This is absolute nonsense. If you can show me a replay where you have 6 zealots and 2 immortals out by 5:30 gametime I will drop out of school, quit my job, say goodbye to all of my friends and family, and then immediately fake my death so that I may labor as a slave for you for the rest of my lifetime. ! Well according to the build order program, its possible to have 6 zealots and two immortals out at 5:47. Of course, no one would be able to get one out at that exact time since the program calculates it can be done faster than most humans really can. Thats with cutting tons of probes though. With constant probes itd come out at 6:10 or so. | ||
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Hane
France210 Posts
You really don't want to lose your 1st immo. Once your 2nd is out it's almost gg. | ||
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TheAwesomeAll
Netherlands1609 Posts
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Roblicious
United States64 Posts
On February 11 2011 04:26 GrassEater wrote: You cant get sentry firth on most maps. because 1 zealot+1 stalker > 1 zealot+ 1 sentry, and you can forcefield once to keep the zealot stalker out but then you have a sentry without forcefield that does very low dps. Anyway to get zealot, stalker, sentry + 2nd gas and still get that first immortal out in a decent timespan? Will FFing the front buy you enough time to do so? If not then forget what I said and skip the sentry entirely lol EDIT: I have seen strat videos and replays with pros who do a 4 gate vs 2/3 gate robo with pylon near the wall to warp in up top and they still get stomped by sentry FFs and then immortals right after. Im sure their 4 gate comes at the 5:45 min or whatever as well. All the while still producing gateway units/teching to collossi (when resources become available) | ||
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GrassEater
Sweden417 Posts
On February 11 2011 04:39 Roblicious wrote: Anyway to get zealot, stalker, sentry + 2nd gas and still get that first immortal out in a decent timespan? Will FFing the front buy you enough time to do so? If not then forget what I said and skip the sentry entirely lol If you get only one sentry a forcefield is 15 s so you can maybe get that immortal out at 5:50, the 4 gater has one more warpin that he will wait for then so i think you might still be overwhelmed. I played a lot of 4 gate vs 3 gate robo against a friend today and i won 15/16 with my 4 gate, i did loose when my timeing was 5 s late. It might be possible to hold a 4 gate with a 3 gate robo. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On February 11 2011 04:49 GrassEater wrote: If you get only one sentry a forcefield is 15 s so you can maybe get that immortal out at 5:50, the 4 gater has one more warpin that he will wait for then so i think you might still be overwhelmed. I played a lot of 4 gate vs 3 gate robo against a friend today and i won 15/16 with my 4 gate, i did loose when my timeing was 5 s late. It might be possible to hold a 4 gate with a 3 gate robo. You guys should stop the theory-crafting in a [G] thread. If you want to make a claim then back it up with replays like I did. If you want to theory-craft go start your own thread. Posts like this clog up discussion of the build that was the original topic's focus. | ||
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Battousai13
United States638 Posts
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GrassEater
Sweden417 Posts
On February 11 2011 05:04 CecilSunkure wrote: You guys should stop the theory-crafting in a [G] thread. If you want to make a claim then back it up with replays like I did. If you want to theory-craft go start your own thread. Posts like this clog up discussion of the build that was the original topic's focus. I have backed up the claim that a 4 gate from a 12 gate comes 30 s b4 he is ready to defend it, which is what kcdc:s build claims to be able to defend. and noone has commented on it. And when i lock for responces i see someone suggest kcdc can change his build and get a sentry firth then i felt obligated to explain why this isn't possible. | ||
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SeanShepard
United States48 Posts
On February 11 2011 05:20 GrassEater wrote: I have backed up the claim that a 4 gate from a 12 gate comes 30 s b4 he is ready to defend it, which is what kcdc:s build claims to be able to defend. and noone has commented on it. And when i lock for responces i see someone suggest kcdc can change his build and get a sentry firth then i felt obligated to explain why this isn't possible. You are correct. I am 2900 masters and was just matched versus a 3000 masters pvp on xel naga. He went for this build and lost to my standard 12gate 1gas 4gate. The build flat doesn't work. Thanks for the post but should this thread be locked? Replay: http://replayfu.com/r/gZdrNp | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On February 11 2011 05:20 GrassEater wrote: I have backed up the claim that a 4 gate from a 12 gate comes 30 s b4 he is ready to defend it, which is what kcdc:s build claims to be able to defend. and noone has commented on it. And when i lock for responces i see someone suggest kcdc can change his build and get a sentry firth then i felt obligated to explain why this isn't possible. You posted it 5 hours ago. I'm busy w/ work. I'll check it out when I can. | ||
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GrassEater
Sweden417 Posts
On February 11 2011 07:36 kcdc wrote: You posted it 5 hours ago. I'm busy w/ work. I'll check it out when I can. No hurry. :p I think however your thread is great outside of master league. It will help many people. And will make them think about gas and what impacts it does have on your resources. | ||
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