EPT[G] PvP 1-gas 2-gate robo opening - Page 9
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
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GrassEater
Sweden417 Posts
On February 11 2011 09:00 Wr3k wrote: Tried this build out several times, only really works if they are stupid enough to make stalkers rather than just killing you with 4gate zealot and the stalkers they already have. 3k masters if it matters. Any 4gate that cuts after 20 probes will likely kill this if they warp in predominantly zealots when they reach you. i cut at 19 | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On February 11 2011 07:21 SeanShepard wrote: You are correct. I am 2900 masters and was just matched versus a 3000 masters pvp on xel naga. He went for this build and lost to my standard 12gate 1gas 4gate. The build flat doesn't work. Thanks for the post but should this thread be locked? Replay: http://replayfu.com/r/gZdrNp First, that guy didn't do the build discussed in this thread. He did something vaguely similar. Sort of. His build was gate, gate, robo, gate, and at 6 minutes, he had 3 zealots and a stalker and was still quite a ways from an immortal. At 6 minutes, my build has 5 zealots, a stalker, an immortal, and has started the second immortal. He also screwed up by letting you build your first proxy pylon at his ramp and he fought right there as soon as you came up. If he'd positioned his buildings back a bit from the ramp as I suggest in this guide, he would have had a much easier time defending. As for your comment that the build flat doesn't work and that the thread should be locked, I would think that you'd at least provide a replay where one of the players does the build laid out in the guide before making such strong statements. | ||
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SeanShepard
United States48 Posts
On February 11 2011 09:53 kcdc wrote: First, that guy didn't do the build discussed in this thread. He did something vaguely similar. Sort of. His build was gate, gate, robo, gate, and at 6 minutes, he had 3 zealots and a stalker and was still quite a ways from an immortal. At 6 minutes, my build has 5 zealots, a stalker, an immortal, and has started the second immortal. He also screwed up by letting you build your first proxy pylon at his ramp and he fought right there as soon as you came up. If he'd positioned his buildings back a bit from the ramp as I suggest in this guide, he would have had a much easier time defending. As for your comment that the build flat doesn't work and that the thread should be locked, I would think that you'd at least provide a replay where one of the players does the build laid out in the guide before making such strong statements. A 4gate hits at 5:45. Does it matter if you can get an immortal at 6 minutes? | ||
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GrassEater
Sweden417 Posts
On February 11 2011 10:00 SeanShepard wrote: A 4gate hits at 5:45. Does it matter if you can get an immortal at 6 minutes? no it hits at 5:30 if from a 12 gate. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On February 11 2011 00:53 GrassEater wrote: Okey let me post an replay: This is the 4 gate that you need to defend. all 10 gate 4 gates you can win by just getting some early gateways and chrono some stalkers and zealots and not warp tech and be ahead. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137477-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war I have 30 s free time in your base with 2 z 4s vs 2 z 1s. With that time i can snipe 2 pylons, or maybe a robo, but it is more risky, if i only gets it down to 100 health and your immortal spawns or some probes and stop your mining or anything. You were up the ramp at 5:37 which is really solid. Of course, you cheated a bit because you can't really get a pylon that close to the enemy base. Realistically, you're going to have to spend 5-10 more seconds walking over. And then remember that my buildings are as far away from the ramp as possible, and that my pylons are behind my gateways/robos. You're going to have 5-10 more seconds of walking to start hitting my builds. My immortal pops at 5:55. You might be able to get a probe, but there's no way you're killing a pylon. I'm pretty sure I can defend that consistently with this opening, but we can test it if you post your name.id. | ||
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Strzyga
United States2 Posts
This is absolute nonsense. If you can show me a replay where you have 6 zealots and 2 immortals out by 5:30 gametime I will drop out of school, quit my job, say goodbye to all of my friends and family, and then immediately fake my death so that I may labor as a slave for you for the rest of my lifetime. I will spend the next 70 years making your bed, doing your dishes, doing your homework (I'm exceptionally good with numbers, I've been told I am a phenomenal writer, my programming skills are a bit weak but I have a working knowledge of C++ and Java, I have a nice smile and can bullshit my way out of anything else, I've got you covered), doing your job (this may be difficult depending on what kind of work you get into, but I will do my absolute best to assist you in whatever way I can to help you maintain economic self-reliance) raising your children (I'm a fantastic teacher and an upstanding moral citizen), performing sexual favors (without going into detail, I'm excellent in this area as well), or anything else that may please you. Seriously. Despite my low post count, I lurk around here quite a bit. Tons of people make these ridiculous claims about being able to have incredible numbers of units out by certain points in the game and I've found that it usually simply isn't possible. I don't use any of these build order creators that people seem to covet, and I'm not saying that they can't be useful tools, but if they are telling you that you can pull things like this off, you have to take their results with a grain of salt. I guess I came off as sort of upset there... That was supposed to be more humorous than anything else but it ended up sounding like a rant, I'm not bashing on you or anything, just saying that it would make things a lot nicer around here if people stopped making claims like this without first testing them. Onto the topic at hand... It is neither lies, hogwash, OR poppycock, for that matter. You'll also notice I gave some ranges there. 6 zealot and two immortals is best case scenario and rarely plays out that way. 4 zealots and 2 immortals is far more likely in many circumstances. The time range is also BETWEEN 5:30 and 5:45. Even in the later end of that time range, it is well within time for an effective defense/counter attack. And 4 zealots is more than enough to block off your ramp long enough for the Immortals to give them one hell of a bad day. Also, as I said, it relies on the the idea that he will be relatively stalker heavy, which is fairly likely. And if you scout that he isn't, there is room to adjust. Also I'll note that I have not for this build, or EVER for that matter, used one of the automated build mods that you mention. I'm all home grown. It's been a while since I've done this build as I have moved on to experimenting with other things, but I'll see if I can get a decent replay of my build in action. It may or may not take me a few days as I won't have much time free between today and Monday. And I did play this build...I practiced it myself without input from anyone else. Not claiming to be the best player on earth (far from it), but I did practice this build a lot. It's got tight tolerances, but it can be done. | ||
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GrassEater
Sweden417 Posts
On February 11 2011 10:09 kcdc wrote: You were up the ramp at 5:37 which is really solid. Of course, you cheated a bit because you can't really get a pylon that close to the enemy base. Realistically, you're going to have to spend 5-10 more seconds walking over. And then remember that my buildings are as far away from the ramp as possible, and that my pylons are behind my gateways/robos. You're going to have 5-10 more seconds of walking to start hitting my builds. My immortal pops at 5:55. You might be able to get a probe, but there's no way you're killing a pylon. I'm pretty sure I can defend that consistently with this opening, but we can test it if you post your name.id. I am on eu GrassEater.681 | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Nevertheless a slightly less then ideal 4 gate realistically hits at the base is 5 min 40. In practice you willl have to put the proxy pylon a bit further away which delays the build. Either way I´m having serious doubts IF the 1 gas robo build can be tuned to beat this. The problem is this intricated but there are some limitations to what you can do: 1. you need the gate before gas or the build is simply too vulnerable to cheese. 2. you need a stalker fairly early in the build to stop scouting as a result of 1 and 2 you can't get an immortal out before 5:40 while also being able to quee up a 2nd immortal right away. If you don't do so you will either have a big problem with the first 5 or 6 stalkers or with the 2nd wave attack of 5z + 6s. Only by cutting the stalker have I found it possible to get the immortals out in time, but that seriously alters the build as that makes the build easy to scout then. If you don't really worry about being scouted (or just hope they pull back their scout because they suspect your first unit after cybercore will be a stalker) you might as well go with a sentry first strategy which can defend a 4 gate with good micro and forcefields. For example I like this build for a 2 gate robo defense with 2 gas: 9 pylon 13 gate + scout 14 gas 16 pylon 18 cyber 18 2nd gas -zealot @ 100% cyber, sentry and WG tech. chrono both. pylon robo stalker after sentry 2nd gate pylon 2nd sentry When they push you'll have 1 sentry with a 2nd just about to pop. The first guardian shield should be able to delay enough for your 2nd sentry to pop and the 2nd shield enough for your immortal to come out. As long as you split them every time they come up the ramp you can pick off zealots without losing anything and you can hold the 4 gate. Problem with the build is that it's easy to scout and has problems against a fast expand build, which is basically the problem with any sentry heavy build... | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 10 pylon 10 Gateway and scout 10 probe* 11 probe* 14 Assimilator >+3 15 Pylon 16 Cybernetics Core 17 Zealot* (Chrono the last 10 seconds and it goes perfect into the Stalker) 21 Pylon 21 Stalker 23 Warpgate*** 24 Assimilator >+3 25 Stalker (cut probes here and you can make it a 2 gate Robo) 28 Robotics Facility 29 Zealot 32 Pylon [2] 33 Transform to Warpgate 34 Immortal** 38 Sentry 41 Pylon 42 Observer -This can be an immortal if you are getting 4 gated by cutting probes and making the next unit a Zealot 43 Sentry The BO gets Zealot, Stalker (these hit before the opponent can get his own Zealot Stalker on most 2 player maps), Stalker, Zealot, Sentry, Immortal by 6 minutes, follow it up with a Sentry at 6:10ish. Your first sentry is early enough to FF, your 2nd sentry FFs, and your first 1 gets more energy for a 3rd, so you try to cut the 4gate in half the first and 2nd times while blocking it the last time. It's tight but you can hold it. I am working on getting a replay against a decent P so that I can show it holds against ideal play decently and is very strong against non-perfects. Im Master's with an infy bonus pool cause I haven't ladderred since med school exams got intense. | ||
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SaJa
France84 Posts
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
On February 11 2011 10:44 SaJa wrote: Sentry is a joke, do you know why ? Because it won't save you on some maps like scrab station or blistering -.- So do a different build on those maps -.- | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
On February 11 2011 10:44 SaJa wrote: Sentry is a joke, do you know why ? Because it won't save you on some maps like scrab station or blistering -.- Why do people think all BOs are supposed to work on all maps? One BO, One map, One MU. If it works other places that's great. I base my BOs on Meta and XC. | ||
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fatty77
United States41 Posts
I've always played the typical 4Gate but I've wanted to do something else besides the norm, that and I didn't like not being about to get a second scout out so late because of the timing of the observer. With this PvP build, it seems I will also feel much more comfortable with being able to get an observer out after the second immortal. I'm already using your PvT FE against Terran and will start practicing this one against Protoss. For Zerg, I'm trying to work on a Gateway,Forge,Stargate,Gateway,Gateway build against Zerg where I try to pump out 4 Phoenixes asap to kill Queens/Overlords while then transitioning to Zealot/Stalker after Zerg tries to counter the Phoenixes. Forge is used for defense if necessary but mainly for the attack upgrade against zerglings. This build is still rough around the edges but I'm now looking for examples around here where there are replays with a nice tight build order. It's just really fun to play with three distinctly different build orders. I'm still in Platinum and working my way toward Diamond but just wanted to say thanks, your help is greatly appreciated. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On February 11 2011 10:31 Markwerf wrote: Ye it seems the build will have some trouble vs a perfectly performed 4 gate, which is basically the one that grasseater is using in his replay vs the computer. The only mistake in grasseaters build is getting 19 instead of 20 probes as the 20th probe means you can actually afford to warp in 4 zealots for your 2nd round whereas with 19 you are slightly cutting it, remember there is 1 probe needed for the proxy so 20 probes means 16 on minerals, ie the ideal number. Nevertheless a slightly less then ideal 4 gate realistically hits at the base is 5 min 40. In practice you willl have to put the proxy pylon a bit further away which delays the build. Either way I´m having serious doubts IF the 1 gas robo build can be tuned to beat this. The problem is this intricated but there are some limitations to what you can do: 1. you need the gate before gas or the build is simply too vulnerable to cheese. 2. you need a stalker fairly early in the build to stop scouting as a result of 1 and 2 you can't get an immortal out before 5:40 while also being able to quee up a 2nd immortal right away. If you don't do so you will either have a big problem with the first 5 or 6 stalkers or with the 2nd wave attack of 5z + 6s. Only by cutting the stalker have I found it possible to get the immortals out in time, but that seriously alters the build as that makes the build easy to scout then. If you don't really worry about being scouted (or just hope they pull back their scout because they suspect your first unit after cybercore will be a stalker) you might as well go with a sentry first strategy which can defend a 4 gate with good micro and forcefields. For example I like this build for a 2 gate robo defense with 2 gas: 9 pylon 13 gate + scout 14 gas 16 pylon 18 cyber 18 2nd gas -zealot @ 100% cyber, sentry and WG tech. chrono both. pylon robo stalker after sentry 2nd gate pylon 2nd sentry When they push you'll have 1 sentry with a 2nd just about to pop. The first guardian shield should be able to delay enough for your 2nd sentry to pop and the 2nd shield enough for your immortal to come out. As long as you split them every time they come up the ramp you can pick off zealots without losing anything and you can hold the 4 gate. Problem with the build is that it's easy to scout and has problems against a fast expand build, which is basically the problem with any sentry heavy build... I've run probably 15 test games against 4 gates in the last few days against mid-masters players (unfortunately not high masters--highest ranked was XiExo at ~3200) and the 2-gate robo build beat the all-in 4 gate handily all but one of those times. It requires good execution and micro, but defending 4 gate always does. I need Minigun to help me run some tests for an injection of credibility. | ||
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Gool
Argentina204 Posts
I believe it's a solid build, just not invincible. | ||
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TemplarCo.
Mexico2870 Posts
Problem 1: You're left with mostly zealots, this doesn't help a lot against 4gates cause players get mostly stalkers, and with good stalker micro , you're zealots will die fast. Problem 2: If the build goes as you say and when the 4gate comes you have 1 Stalker and 1 Immortal, after your zealots die you're kind of left in a bad spot, possibly you could have 1 more Immortal in production, and 2 Stalkers from the Warp Gates, assuming the person that does the 4gate reinforces you're screwed even if you pull probes. So the problem is that I find myself out of gas. The build is very good I like it a lot :D but I don't have enough gas so that I can get at least 2 sentries with out leaving my power units low. Try doing the build with 2 gases, it comes better with me. Nice Job :D | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
The thing is, even up till 3500 master people still suck at 4 gating by doing lousy versions of it. The best 4 gate by far is a 12 gate into 20 probe 4 gate which seems to hit just too early for this to manage. You can get out the immortal with some dancing etc. but the thing is it won´t do that much. The problem is immortals take 4 shots to kill a stalker, thus they overkill everytime. It is too easy for the 4 gater to avoid having his stalkers killed by your immortal and then you simply die because the 4 gater has a few more units. Here are 2 replays of a few test games we did: the first I win but it's really close and is mostly because of faulty stalker micro on his part. the second one my immortal can't reach his stalkers easily enough and the build just falls apart. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188168.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188169.jpg) Either way i'm sure this build does not reliable hold the GOOD 4 gate. Especially not if they go a little more zealot heavy, which makes it even harder to reach the stalkers with your immortals. And then I also slightly dislike the quick gas coupled with the late gate and scouting which makes the build very susceptible to cheese. You should still be able to hold it off but if you ever scout it late it will be damn hard. edit: How well the strat works also seems to depend a fair bit on how efficient the geyser you got it. Some geysers get a little less gas and then you are really in trouble, always make sure to get a 'good' geyser with this strat. | ||
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Gool
Argentina204 Posts
I think this build can put up a nice fight if done well, i just don't think it's a guaranteed victory. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On February 11 2011 12:25 Markwerf wrote: I tested the build against grasseater who does a solid build order for the 4 gate. The thing is, even up till 3500 master people still suck at 4 gating by doing lousy versions of it. The best 4 gate by far is a 12 gate into 20 probe 4 gate which seems to hit just too early for this to manage. You can get out the immortal with some dancing etc. but the thing is it won´t do that much. The problem is immortals take 4 shots to kill a stalker, thus they overkill everytime. It is too easy for the 4 gater to avoid having his stalkers killed by your immortal and then you simply die because the 4 gater has a few more units. Here are 2 replays of a few test games we did: the first I win but it's really close and is mostly because of faulty stalker micro on his part. the second one my immortal can't reach his stalkers easily enough and the build just falls apart. Either way i'm sure this build does not reliable hold the GOOD 4 gate. Especially not if they go a little more zealot heavy, which makes it even harder to reach the stalkers with your immortals. And then I also slightly dislike the quick gas coupled with the late gate and scouting which makes the build very susceptible to cheese. You should still be able to hold it off but if you ever scout it late it will be damn hard. Only watched the 2nd replay. It seems pretty clear that the reason you lost that one was because you didn't warp in the 4th and 5th zealots till 6:15 after your immortal was about to die. If you lose your immortal for free like that, you're going to lose every time. If you execute cleanly, you have 5 zealots to his 1, so your zealots get in his way rather than the other way around. It'll hold--it just takes more practice. I'm sure your opponent had hundreds of games of 4 gate practice.... | ||
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