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On February 11 2011 12:41 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 12:25 Markwerf wrote:I tested the build against grasseater who does a solid build order for the 4 gate. The thing is, even up till 3500 master people still suck at 4 gating by doing lousy versions of it. The best 4 gate by far is a 12 gate into 20 probe 4 gate which seems to hit just too early for this to manage. You can get out the immortal with some dancing etc. but the thing is it won´t do that much. The problem is immortals take 4 shots to kill a stalker, thus they overkill everytime. It is too easy for the 4 gater to avoid having his stalkers killed by your immortal and then you simply die because the 4 gater has a few more units. Here are 2 replays of a few test games we did: the first I win but it's really close and is mostly because of faulty stalker micro on his part. the second one my immortal can't reach his stalkers easily enough and the build just falls apart. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188168.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188169.jpg) Either way i'm sure this build does not reliable hold the GOOD 4 gate. Especially not if they go a little more zealot heavy, which makes it even harder to reach the stalkers with your immortals. And then I also slightly dislike the quick gas coupled with the late gate and scouting which makes the build very susceptible to cheese. You should still be able to hold it off but if you ever scout it late it will be damn hard. Only watched the 2nd replay. It seems pretty clear that the reason you lost that one was because you didn't warp in the 4th and 5th zealots till 6:15 after your immortal was about to die. If you lose your immortal for free like that, you're going to lose every time. If you execute cleanly, you have 5 zealots to his 1, so your zealots get in his way rather than the other way around. It'll hold--it just takes more practice. I'm sure your opponent had hundreds of games of 4 gate practice....
Yes it wasn't executed perfectly but I'm quite positive that with perfect executions on both sides the 4 gater will win. The first moment he pushes he has 6 stalkers 1 z vs at most 5z 1s. You already have to pull back and delay well then to get your immortal out.
After that he can have 5z 6s vs your 5z 1 immo for a while while you wait to get that 2nd immo out. Note that often you'll have just a slightly hiccup with the 2nd immo as you need to wait a bit on gas. You also don't have full chronoboost for the 2nd immo anymore so it takes a little longer. A good 4 gater can do enough damage imo in the time you are between your first and 2nd immo that you will lose.
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On February 11 2011 12:41 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 12:25 Markwerf wrote:I tested the build against grasseater who does a solid build order for the 4 gate. The thing is, even up till 3500 master people still suck at 4 gating by doing lousy versions of it. The best 4 gate by far is a 12 gate into 20 probe 4 gate which seems to hit just too early for this to manage. You can get out the immortal with some dancing etc. but the thing is it won´t do that much. The problem is immortals take 4 shots to kill a stalker, thus they overkill everytime. It is too easy for the 4 gater to avoid having his stalkers killed by your immortal and then you simply die because the 4 gater has a few more units. Here are 2 replays of a few test games we did: the first I win but it's really close and is mostly because of faulty stalker micro on his part. the second one my immortal can't reach his stalkers easily enough and the build just falls apart. Either way i'm sure this build does not reliable hold the GOOD 4 gate. Especially not if they go a little more zealot heavy, which makes it even harder to reach the stalkers with your immortals. And then I also slightly dislike the quick gas coupled with the late gate and scouting which makes the build very susceptible to cheese. You should still be able to hold it off but if you ever scout it late it will be damn hard. Only watched the 2nd replay. It seems pretty clear that the reason you lost that one was because you didn't warp in the 4th and 5th zealots till 6:15 after your immortal was about to die. If you lose your immortal for free like that, you're going to lose every time. If you execute cleanly, you have 5 zealots to his 1, so your zealots get in his way rather than the other way around. It'll hold--it just takes more practice. I'm sure your opponent had hundreds of games of 4 gate practice....
Believe it or not. I am better at macro then micro. What i am really bad at is multitasking. But to execute a build-order without big mistakes is not that hard. That game in the middle of all micro i somewhat got the warp-in 5 s to late, and he got thankfully also got his zealot warp in also to late.
But after playing vs it i believe that it often comes down to a micro battle and the one with the best execution wins.
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Is there anyone on the NA server who would be interesting in running the vs 4gate tests with me? I'd like to follow this up in the spirit of the scientific method. I can hit either side of this BO, don't care. But let's figure out if we can improve this at all or what.
EDIT:
Improved the BO, will have a replay soon.
9 Pylon
10 Probe*
11 Probe*
13 Gateway and Scout
13 Assimilator > +3
16 Pylon
17 Cybernetics Core
18 Zealot
21 pylon
21 Stalker*
23 Warpgate***
25 Robotics Facility then Immortal*
26 Gateway then Transform to Warpgate then Stalker
27 Zealot then Transform to Warpgate then Zealot
29 Pylon
35 Pylon
I cut off 20-30s. You get 1 Stalker in place of a Zealot and your Immortal is 20+s sooner. I think this will hold a 4gate easy. Congrats KCDC at almost getting the optimal build.
EDIT 2:
I think 1 Gate 2 gas Robo is better... 2 Immortals before 6:30, Sentry by 5:45, 3 Z, 1 S, and another Sentry by 6:15 so you can FF into 2 Immortals and throw up another Gate if needed.
9 Pylon
10 Probe*
11 Probe*
13 Gateway and Scout
13 Assimilator > +3
16 Pylon
17 Cybernetics Core
18 Zealot
21 pylon
21 Stalker*
23 Warpgate***
25 Robotics Facility
25 Zealot
28 Assimilator > +3
29 Pylon
29 Zealot
31 Immortal*
36 Pylon
37 Transform to Warpgate
37 Sentry
39 Immortal*
44 Pylon
45 Sentry
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I watched the replay from steppes from markwerf. I think it boiled down to 2 things for you. 1) losing that first unit to his initial units. 2) your second 2 zealot warp in i believe warped in on top of units that could attack them. One of them i believe died before attacking and the other one took shield damage. IMO you should just run and warp in somewhere safe. Additionally I felt the probe pull was a little premature as your immortal was about to come out and he couldnt have sniped a building before it did. I think if you had wait a bit to probe pull and used them to prevent stalker kiting a bit you would have held it in the first game. I guess thats actually 3 things, but in a build that requires such precision to counter (unless 4 gating yourself in which case it takes more micro precision) I dont think these mistakes will allow you to hold it.
Ive only been able to ladder a little bit to test this build out but its pretty easy to execute and im 2-0 with it. I was afraid it might lose to a delayed 4 gate or something but the second immortal really shuts that down. My last game ~3k masters i ended up with more collossuss, range, my 2 leftover immortals, and a warp prism. in my attack I just used the prism to drop the immortals at the feet of the prism and shift click the two he was able to produce by then after transitioning to 4 gate. 2 gate 1 robo army was vastly superior to his 4 gate + robo army but if i had wait a little longer that may have not been the case. I think its important to constantly check up on them with the observer after the early stages of the game to find your timing. Actually in both games ive done this build ive done the warp prism technique.. i can see it becoming a staple... its really powerful. I drop the immortals where i need them usually without any troubles (their switch to collossus means they have fuckall for stalkers)... then one i drop them i fly the prism into the mineral line and warp in 2 zealots.
The one thing I havent really decided is if I should add a third gate or not as a standard at some point.
This is a strong opener, KCDC is now the author of two of my favorite builds (though I need more time with this one)
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Look the major problem in those reps is you made too many probes, you cant expect to get away with more probes. Kcdc noted how you guys are comparing a well honed 4gate, to a newer build.
Here is 20probe BO you can test:
9p, 13Gate-s, 13gas, 16p, 17core, 18z, 22wg+stalker, 24robo+Gate+zealot, 26p, zealot, immortal, pylon, warp 2zealot.
~5:50 5z/1stalker/1immortal
Perfect 20probe 4gate would be around 6stalker/1z <5:45, +4z ~6:15.
As you can see there is still the gap just before immortal and just after. This is what gives 4gate some edge. Which is why the no stalker version deserves consideration for the faster immortals. The BO is not much different than the above to test.
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On February 11 2011 14:00 Knickknack wrote:
Look the major problem in those reps is you made too many probes, you cant expect to get away with more probes. Kcdc noted how you guys are comparing a well honed 4gate, to a newer build.
Here is 20probe BO you can test:
9p, 13Gate-s, 13gas, 16p, 17core, 18z, 22wg+stalker, 24robo+Gate+zealot, 26p, zealot, immortal, pylon, warp 2zealot.
~5:50 5z/1stalker/1immortal
Perfect 20probe 4gate would be around 6stalker/1z <5:45, +4z ~6:15.
As you can see there is still the gap just before immortal and just after. This is what gives 4gate some edge. Which is why the no stalker version deserves consideration for the faster immortals. The BO is not much different than the above to test.
Yes, I wasn't specific about probe cuts in the BO because there are a lot of variables that change how many probes you can afford to get. If you see 12 gate with core ahead of yours, max saved chrono, and probe cutting well before the stalker is out, that's got a different response than a 13 gate with 75 saved energy that isn't cutting probes in view of your scout.
Against the 100% scoutable 19 or 20 probe 4 gate with max saved energy, my preferred BO cuts probes at 28/34 (or 27/34 is I lost my scout) which leaves me with 22 probes (21 if I lost my scout). I seem to defend the 4 gates I run into on ladder at ~3250 Masters pretty easily. It's possible that I've just outplayed my opponents all of those times, but I think this build really has a significant edge against aggressive 4 gates. If people want to run more tests, please execute at least reasonably cleanly. It's pretty easy to get the 5 z, 1 s, and 1 immo by 6 min (you should really have it @ 5:55-5:57), so if you're 10 seconds late on the immortal or the zealots and you lose, run another test before submitting the replay. It's like going eco 4 gate against hard 4 gate and engaging when you're a warp cycle behind. If you don't execute well, you lose no matter what build you choose.
Also, if you observed a 5 second gap where the 4 gater has the stronger army, that's really not a problem at all. Even if he's warping at your ramp inside your main, that's not enough time for him to make it to your probe line. Realistically, you can expect a 4 gater to warp in at least ~5-10 sec away from your ramp, and it will take another ~5-10 sec to make it to your buildings at which point he can start hitting a pylon. A pylon will take 5 shots to kill, so you can afford to wait another ~3 seconds there before you really have to engage.
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On February 11 2011 13:12 Sleight wrote:
Is there anyone on the NA server who would be interesting in running the vs 4gate tests with me? I'd like to follow this up in the spirit of the scientific method. I can hit either side of this BO, don't care. But let's figure out if we can improve this at all or what.
EDIT:
Improved the BO, will have a replay soon.
9 Pylon
10 Probe*
11 Probe*
13 Gateway and Scout
13 Assimilator > +3
16 Pylon
17 Cybernetics Core
18 Zealot
21 pylon
21 Stalker*
23 Warpgate***
25 Robotics Facility then Immortal*
26 Gateway then Transform to Warpgate then Stalker
27 Zealot then Transform to Warpgate then Zealot
29 Pylon
35 Pylon
I cut off 20-30s. You get 1 Stalker in place of a Zealot and your Immortal is 20+s sooner. I think this will hold a 4gate easy. Congrats KCDC at almost getting the optimal build.
EDIT 2:
I think 1 Gate 2 gas Robo is better... 2 Immortals before 6:30, Sentry by 5:45, 3 Z, 1 S, and another Sentry by 6:15 so you can FF into 2 Immortals and throw up another Gate if needed.
9 Pylon
10 Probe*
11 Probe*
13 Gateway and Scout
13 Assimilator > +3
16 Pylon
17 Cybernetics Core
18 Zealot
21 pylon
21 Stalker*
23 Warpgate***
25 Robotics Facility
25 Zealot
28 Assimilator > +3
29 Pylon
29 Zealot
31 Immortal*
36 Pylon
37 Transform to Warpgate
37 Sentry
39 Immortal*
44 Pylon
45 Sentry
The first build is very close to what I laid out in the OP. The differences were that you only spend 1 chrono on probes which I'm 100% ok with and getting a 2nd stalker. I believe that saving an extra chrono does speed up your defense by 5-10 seconds. I'm not a fan of the building the 2nd stalker because I find that doing so delays your second immortal.
As for the 2nd BO, I don't think you can count on holding your ramp with that BO, so I don't see a purpose for the extra gas or sentries. You're saying you have 1 FF at 5:45 which will probably be early enough, but you won't have another FF till 6:15 which leaves a hole that he can walk up. Additionally, since so much of your DPS is in zealots, I'm not sure it would be good to fight at the ramp even if you could. You have an immortal, but his ranged damage is still better, particularly against zealots which tend to take the hits in these ramp battles. I don't think fighting at the choke is the way to go with this.
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I tested it some more and i'm under the impression that you definately need at least chrono's on your warpgate tech you get that first warpgate round in time. This makes me believe the correct build order is uses 2 chrono on nexus, 1 on first gate, 3 on WG tech and all others on immortal.
To compensate for the fact that your first immortal won't be chronoboosted as much as in a other variation you want to start your robo really fast. You can do this by going zealot-zealot-stalker instead of zealot-stalker-zealot and cutting probes at 22 (which is neccesary to fight of the 4 gate really).
That way you can put down the robo really fast and you can generally bank on your strategy not being scouted because they will pull back their first probe thinking your 2nd unit will be a stalker (especially since you boost it).
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I've been playing with this build on ladder quite a bit (2800 diamond) and I've had mixed results. Against a 4 gater that is being very aggressive and actively trying to break me, it does great. The issue is when they go up my ramp, see my unit composition, withdraw right away and go home to make a Stargate and pump out Phoenixes.
When the opponent withdraws you're pretty stuck in your base as a bunch of Zealots and Immortals have a really hard time going down a ramp and moving around the map because they are so slow. If the opponent has a Sentry, this becomes even more difficult to handle.
So you're a bit in the dark and need to make an Observer and don't know whether it's safe to get the 2nd gas. If you do take the 2nd gas and start going down Colossi tech, you must pretty much make nothing but zealots as the robo production takes almost 100% of your gas. This leaves you unable to create Stalkers to counter the Phoenixes even if your Observer spots them. I've also had the scenario on DQ where the opponent goes home, gets VRs, charge and expands and there isn't a whole lot I can do about that either.
That's been my #1 struggle. Basically if they try to kill me it's great, if they go back home it sucks.
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I tried this and can see how t can hold 4gate. but I just encountered k4g and this does not do well at l vs that.
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creator of 1gate FE strikes again.
Awesome build dude keep up the work!
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On February 12 2011 16:39 fighter2_40 wrote:
I tried this and can see how t can hold 4gate. but I just encountered k4g and this does not do well at l vs that.
It's been discussed before. From my previous post:
10gateway 13gas with pulled probes is all scoutable with your first scouting probe. He pulls probes off gas, the gateway is early, and his nexus energy is higher than ever. You haven't placed your robo yet and can safely do whatever opening you prefer against Korean 4 Warpgate play. This does not typically involve a robo (no stalkers / variations with very few stalkers) so you're not continuing in the gateway - robo - gate build order.
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I've been using a similar gate-robo-gate opening in PvT for some time now, but I really like this. Thanks!
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On February 12 2011 05:04 RedusK wrote:
I've been playing with this build on ladder quite a bit (2800 diamond) and I've had mixed results. Against a 4 gater that is being very aggressive and actively trying to break me, it does great. The issue is when they go up my ramp, see my unit composition, withdraw right away and go home to make a Stargate and pump out Phoenixes.
When the opponent withdraws you're pretty stuck in your base as a bunch of Zealots and Immortals have a really hard time going down a ramp and moving around the map because they are so slow. If the opponent has a Sentry, this becomes even more difficult to handle.
So you're a bit in the dark and need to make an Observer and don't know whether it's safe to get the 2nd gas. If you do take the 2nd gas and start going down Colossi tech, you must pretty much make nothing but zealots as the robo production takes almost 100% of your gas. This leaves you unable to create Stalkers to counter the Phoenixes even if your Observer spots them. I've also had the scenario on DQ where the opponent goes home, gets VRs, charge and expands and there isn't a whole lot I can do about that either.
That's been my #1 struggle. Basically if they try to kill me it's great, if they go back home it sucks.
I actually intentionally left the guide very vague beyond 6 minutes because I think there are a lot of different ways to go at this point. You could go for a timing attack against a FE, you could expand, or you could tech to collosi or void rays. You can add a sentry at any point if you want more defense.
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On February 11 2011 02:34 Acridice wrote:If you see a 10gate, just immediately put some early pressure on them I either build a second gateway in my base, or build a proxy forge/gateway near their base and then chrono zealots out of my first gateway while the proxies build. Then I push into their base with cannons and zealots. Here, I show you. This is actually a very typical reaction I do when I see a 10 gate. 10 Gate Being Punished
This is awesome, thanks
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Thanks kcdc for posting this, will try it asap since im sick of stupid 4gate laming
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On February 12 2011 05:04 RedusK wrote:
I've been playing with this build on ladder quite a bit (2800 diamond) and I've had mixed results. Against a 4 gater that is being very aggressive and actively trying to break me, it does great. The issue is when they go up my ramp, see my unit composition, withdraw right away and go home to make a Stargate and pump out Phoenixes.
When the opponent withdraws you're pretty stuck in your base as a bunch of Zealots and Immortals have a really hard time going down a ramp and moving around the map because they are so slow. If the opponent has a Sentry, this becomes even more difficult to handle.
So you're a bit in the dark and need to make an Observer and don't know whether it's safe to get the 2nd gas. If you do take the 2nd gas and start going down Colossi tech, you must pretty much make nothing but zealots as the robo production takes almost 100% of your gas. This leaves you unable to create Stalkers to counter the Phoenixes even if your Observer spots them. I've also had the scenario on DQ where the opponent goes home, gets VRs, charge and expands and there isn't a whole lot I can do about that either.
That's been my #1 struggle. Basically if they try to kill me it's great, if they go back home it sucks.
I've never had this problem (2800 Diamond also). I take my second gas just after my first few zealot warp ins because you can't spend your minerals on just Zealots and Immortals, try that, if they look like they are going to stall then chrono an obsever.
My biggest problem was when they go blind Voidray (Proxy Stargate) Stalker push, that was really difficult to hold off, even if it was delayed (they went 1 gas until probe was gone)
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this is just a very bad executed 4g. In a normal case there is no way you can defend against the 4g with this build
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I've never tried going for such an early immortal to defend 4-gates, but assuming it works, I do not see the benefit of this over 3-gate. With 3-gate you can get your 2nd gas earlier, have a heavier stalker army, can hold your ramp better (so it is less risky), can delay their proxy pylons (again, less risky) and it leaves your tech path more open.
I see little advantages of getting the early robo comparatively as your army composition of mostly zealot/immortal will not be as strong pushing back or breaking a contain. For example if you hold w/ 3-gates w/ a stalker heavy army, you can smoothly transition into blink stalkers and end the game much quicker since you'll have both an army, tech, and eco advantage compared to your opponent.
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EPT
