EPTOr because of some flaws in race design?
Or there are no uber level players because protoss race does not reward skill enough?
Why protoss always underperforms on pro level?
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SiarX
102 Posts
Or because of some flaws in race design? Or there are no uber level players because protoss race does not reward skill enough? | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia918 Posts
Matchups generally favoring differing skillsets Lack of P's destroying their wrists/arms/shoulders compared to T's and Z's | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
517 Posts
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TMNT
2656 Posts
There's no way it's just a coincidence that in both SC1 and SC2 we see the same trends: Protoss is boss at noob to mid level and sucks at pro level. Different games different units but the core design in fighting power of each race remains: Terran - range and dps, Zerg - sheer army volume (might be a bit too simplified for Zerg but you get the idea), Protoss - gimmicks and power units. And yes it can be fixed by maps (Protoss is strong on island maps) but for some reasons SC1 people just dont want to do it. Although it's nearly impossible to have a map that balances all 3 matchups, it's very easy to have matchup-specific maps, and it affects nothing with regards to the integrity of tournaments. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3352 Posts
Snow is also solid online for long stretches but has had issues offline. Didnt help that Soulkey is just on a rampage now so it feels worse than it is. Problem is P has almost no new blood, kinda sad that rain is top 2 P this season in SSL with low activity. T has speed, Z has soma but P if anything just keeps losing players (kal, jangbi) and the other active ones are arguably getting worse each season (looking at you bisu and best). From the little i follow of sc2 it seems the problem isnt nearly as dire though | ||
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TT1
Canada10004 Posts
On November 30 2024 04:11 CHEONSOYUN wrote: it is definitely a character issue. winner | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25035 Posts
That said I think it’s quite a big factor that no Toss player has managed to be god tier in both inter-faction matchups, and mirror as well. I’m not sure why that is, perhaps different matchups reward different skill sets and mentalities to such a degree that a singular player can’t excel at them all? It’s not purely the faction. I mean in latter-day Kespa if we took Bisu’s PvZ and made a composite player with say, Jangbi’s PvT that player is pretty bloody formidable. So it’s not purely playing Protoss that’s a bottleneck. Or in post-Kespa mash up Bisu’s PvZ with Snow’s PvT and Rain’s PvP and that’s a fucking ridiculous player. For whatever reason no Toss player has really managed to be that well-rounded, but the hypothetical potential is there. Z and T have probably had more players who are genuinely formidable in all matchups. Why that is I guess someone more knowledgeable can give some theories | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States652 Posts
winter to save brood war! :D | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States652 Posts
On November 30 2024 09:17 WombaT wrote: Peak Bisu wasn’t a million miles away. That said I think it’s quite a big factor that no Toss player has managed to be god tier in both inter-faction matchups, and mirror as well. I’m not sure why that is, perhaps different matchups reward different skill sets and mentalities to such a degree that a singular player can’t excel at them all? It’s not purely the faction. I mean in latter-day Kespa if we took Bisu’s PvZ and made a composite player with say, Jangbi’s PvT that player is pretty bloody formidable. So it’s not purely playing Protoss that’s a bottleneck. Or in post-Kespa mash up Bisu’s PvZ with Snow’s PvT and Rain’s PvP and that’s a fucking ridiculous player. For whatever reason no Toss player has really managed to be that well-rounded, but the hypothetical potential is there. Z and T have probably had more players who are genuinely formidable in all matchups. Why that is I guess someone more knowledgeable can give some theories Protoss has a bit more variance because the way the tech tree is setup, so it's more random than others I feel like. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands813 Posts
Terran has one straight build path from rack to fac to port to facility, each unlocking their addon and factory unlocking armory. A straight path. Zerg has pool unlocking den+lair+evo. Lair unlocks spire and nest. Hive unlocks deviler mound, ultralisk cavern and greater spire. straight path with floors/levels. they can pretty much pick anything from a floor all at once. den + spire. cavern + mound. no problem. Protoss has gate unlocking cyber unlocking robotics, stargate, and citadel. But each of these only unlocks one additional building. Protoss has an actual branching tech tree. This means protoss has less diverse options with their available options because once they choose a path on their tech tree they are fully locked into it until its finished. they have to "complete" the chosen tech tree before diverting from it. If the chosen path somewhat fails its usually over for the toss. Another is that arbiter needs time to become functional after already going through a long tech tree. Carrier needs a long time too after going through a long tech tree to get intercepters plus having to build additional stargates. want the carriers fast? less gateways which means exposed to a terran timing. neither zerg or terran is as exposed to timing attack as protoss is. Protoss also cant tech switch without a massive investment before being able to tech switch. zerg can build it all from their hatch. Terran can succeed without tech switches but does face the same problem toss does with a bio into mech switch in tvz. In that sense the meta moving away from carrier and arbiter builds has given toss more freedom. Shuttle meta requires less spending into one tech tree they have to finish. now I hope this makes sense because i am typing this at 5am haha Protoss has less freedom and it more algorythmitacly locked into its strategies. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey321 Posts
The fundamental hierarchy of the game time revolves around rushes and it goes from zerg to terran to protoss - protoss being the slowest. Rushes are fundamentally how you force the opponent into spending resources for defence late and out of time. Normally you should not be able to get a lead on another race with protoss by rushing to corner the opponent into an early end game since you are the slowest race, but this game shows how it can be done in mid game since you are also the strongest race. By stripping terrans of valuable midgame resources and also a successful drop, a protoss can generate a game breaking worker count advantage forcing the terran into a dilemma. Terran is left with his standing army and nothing more late game due to the worker count mismatch. What turns out is an aggressive push not backed by further reinforcements. Protoss weathers this and can prolong the response and therefore wins. As explained, you need that much control in the game to win as a protoss. The game mechanics punish protoss for being slow and therefore victory comes late even with a seismic gap lead in development. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7977 Posts
On November 30 2024 18:06 mtcn77 wrote: I think the recent Hiya vs Invasion game demonstrates in a PvT game what you should do as a protoss to gain a lead. The fundamental hierarchy of the game time revolves around rushes and it goes from zerg to terran to protoss - protoss being the slowest. Rushes are fundamentally how you force the opponent into spending resources for defence late and out of time. Normally you should not be able to get a lead on another race with protoss by rushing to corner the opponent into an early end game since you are the slowest race, but this game shows how it can be done in mid game since you are also the strongest race. By stripping terrans of valuable midgame resources and also a successful drop, a protoss can generate a game breaking worker count advantage forcing the terran into a dilemma. Terran is left with his standing army and nothing more late game due to the worker count mismatch. What turns out is an aggressive push not backed by further reinforcements. Protoss weathers this and can prolong the response and therefore wins. As explained, you need that much control in the game to win as a protoss. The game mechanics punish protoss for being slow and therefore victory comes late even with a seismic gap lead in development. Please put a link to the game if you can, mtcn77... | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands813 Posts
On December 01 2024 00:24 prosatan wrote: Please put a link to the game if you can, mtcn77... think he means this one: also if soulkey did not exist snow would have won last two ASL seasons, 90% confidence. you could argue maybe light would have won SSL and beaten snow in semi. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6555 Posts
On December 01 2024 02:32 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: think he means this one: https://youtu.be/Cqlj08sfLjc?si=ENE9P4OXBWKflhvh also if soulkey did not exist snow would have won last two ASL seasons, 90% confidence. you could argue maybe light would have won SSL and beaten snow in semi. Snow Always find a way to no win tho. Since season 14 i was expecting Snow to reach ASL finals. I was left speechless When Royal eliminated him in season 16 after having a 80+ winrate or some shit that guy TMNT posted. The maps never been so good for protoss these days. And the funny part is that those maps are in someway helping Soulkey to become a Bonjwa smh. I truly fear for the next season MP. Afreeca will try for sure to put a hold to SK streak. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7977 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands813 Posts
On December 01 2024 05:09 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Snow Always find a way to no win tho. Since season 14 i was expecting Snow to reach ASL finals. I was left speechless When Royal eliminated him in season 16 after having a 80+ winrate or some shit that guy TMNT posted. The maps never been so good for protoss these days. And the funny part is that those maps are in someway helping Soulkey to become a Bonjwa smh. I truly fear for the next season MP. Afreeca will try for sure to put a hold to SK streak. Season 17 SnOw looked like the 2nd strongest player after Soulkey. SSL1 he looked like the strongest after Soulkey and Light. Also don't be surprised by RoyaL. When RoyaL's form peaks he is stupidly good. He just peaks so infrequently and inconsistently. RoyaL's been doing well against SnOw on occasions, winning sets of 7 or 9.` And yeah this SSL season had mostly bad maps for zerg, and one crazy good map for zerg in Monty Hall. | ||
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sertas
Sweden883 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
 Kongdoo/Afreeca Starleague StatisticsFrom last 6 ASLs top 20 is: 7 zerg, 7 terran, 6 protoss, which is as balanced a spread as you can get with 3 races. Protoss isn't underrepresented here. | ||
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G5
United States2898 Posts
Although taking these risks can yield decent win rates in overall games, it's a hard thing to place bets on different build orders and be correct against the best players in the world enough times to win an ASL. The top Zerg players have also denied the best Protoss players from potential titles many times. Due to the match up design, it's almost impossible to be ahead of Zerg in whatever the current meta is. Zerg is typically setting the meta and Protoss is trying to come up with solutions to whatever the current meta is of Zerg. Once you get past the mechanics and execution of Starcraft, it mostly just comes down to decision making which usually involves understanding the current meta and what the probability is of what the opponent is doing or going to do and what is the risk assessment involved with what your response is going to be. Protoss players' decision making involves higher amounts of risk imo. Which again, makes it hard to run through an entire tournament like ASL and come out on top. | ||
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SiarX
102 Posts
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