• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:04
CEST 23:04
KST 06:04
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch0Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups4WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia8Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues29
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast
Tourneys
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
ASL20 General Discussion Soulkey on ASL S20 BW General Discussion ASL TICKET LIVE help! :D NaDa's Body
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group D [ASL20] Ro16 Group C Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Borderlands 3 Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
i'm really bored guys
Peanutsc
I <=> 9
KrillinFromwales
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1839 users

Why protoss always underperforms on pro level?

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 20 21 22 Next All
SiarX
Profile Joined December 2021
104 Posts
November 29 2024 18:50 GMT
#1
Is it because it does not have any bonjwa players like Flash, Soulkey etc?

Or because of some flaws in race design?

Or there are no uber level players because protoss race does not reward skill enough?
Soulforged
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Latvia918 Posts
November 29 2024 19:02 GMT
#2
Maps
Matchups generally favoring differing skillsets
Lack of P's destroying their wrists/arms/shoulders compared to T's and Z's
CHEONSOYUN
Profile Joined August 2017
533 Posts
November 29 2024 19:11 GMT
#3
it is definitely a character issue.
JAEDONG...!!! EFFORT IS ANGRY. ZERG...?!
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2836 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-11-29 19:48:57
November 29 2024 19:47 GMT
#4
It's a core design issue for sure.

There's no way it's just a coincidence that in both SC1 and SC2 we see the same trends: Protoss is boss at noob to mid level and sucks at pro level. Different games different units but the core design in fighting power of each race remains: Terran - range and dps, Zerg - sheer army volume (might be a bit too simplified for Zerg but you get the idea), Protoss - gimmicks and power units.

And yes it can be fixed by maps (Protoss is strong on island maps) but for some reasons SC1 people just dont want to do it. Although it's nearly impossible to have a map that balances all 3 matchups, it's very easy to have matchup-specific maps, and it affects nothing with regards to the integrity of tournaments.
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3392 Posts
November 29 2024 23:50 GMT
#5
Tbh this season was good with 2 P in ro4 and decent results before (except motive and free).

Snow is also solid online for long stretches but has had issues offline. Didnt help that Soulkey is just on a rampage now so it feels worse than it is.

Problem is P has almost no new blood, kinda sad that rain is top 2 P this season in SSL with low activity.

T has speed, Z has soma but P if anything just keeps losing players (kal, jangbi) and the other active ones are arguably getting worse each season (looking at you bisu and best).

From the little i follow of sc2 it seems the problem isnt nearly as dire though
Horang2 fan
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10010 Posts
November 30 2024 00:09 GMT
#6
On November 30 2024 04:11 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
it is definitely a character issue.


winner
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25677 Posts
November 30 2024 00:17 GMT
#7
Peak Bisu wasn’t a million miles away.

That said I think it’s quite a big factor that no Toss player has managed to be god tier in both inter-faction matchups, and mirror as well.

I’m not sure why that is, perhaps different matchups reward different skill sets and mentalities to such a degree that a singular player can’t excel at them all?

It’s not purely the faction. I mean in latter-day Kespa if we took Bisu’s PvZ and made a composite player with say, Jangbi’s PvT that player is pretty bloody formidable. So it’s not purely playing Protoss that’s a bottleneck.

Or in post-Kespa mash up Bisu’s PvZ with Snow’s PvT and Rain’s PvP and that’s a fucking ridiculous player.

For whatever reason no Toss player has really managed to be that well-rounded, but the hypothetical potential is there.

Z and T have probably had more players who are genuinely formidable in all matchups. Why that is I guess someone more knowledgeable can give some theories

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States655 Posts
November 30 2024 02:57 GMT
#8
On November 30 2024 09:09 TT1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2024 04:11 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
it is definitely a character issue.


winner


winter to save brood war! :D
Mostly a troll, bi-polar by design, occasionally brain malfunction. Please forgive me. xD
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States655 Posts
November 30 2024 03:20 GMT
#9
On November 30 2024 09:17 WombaT wrote:
Peak Bisu wasn’t a million miles away.

That said I think it’s quite a big factor that no Toss player has managed to be god tier in both inter-faction matchups, and mirror as well.

I’m not sure why that is, perhaps different matchups reward different skill sets and mentalities to such a degree that a singular player can’t excel at them all?

It’s not purely the faction. I mean in latter-day Kespa if we took Bisu’s PvZ and made a composite player with say, Jangbi’s PvT that player is pretty bloody formidable. So it’s not purely playing Protoss that’s a bottleneck.

Or in post-Kespa mash up Bisu’s PvZ with Snow’s PvT and Rain’s PvP and that’s a fucking ridiculous player.

For whatever reason no Toss player has really managed to be that well-rounded, but the hypothetical potential is there.

Z and T have probably had more players who are genuinely formidable in all matchups. Why that is I guess someone more knowledgeable can give some theories



Protoss has a bit more variance because the way the tech tree is setup, so it's more random than others I feel like.
Mostly a troll, bi-polar by design, occasionally brain malfunction. Please forgive me. xD
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Profile Joined December 2023
Netherlands953 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-11-30 04:50:19
November 30 2024 04:21 GMT
#10
its protoss needing to build more tech structures to unlock further tech structures to unlock further units and or upgrades for specific units. Protoss is more locked into a build path than terran and zerg are. zerg is more fluid and terran is just one straight path forward.

Terran has one straight build path from rack to fac to port to facility, each unlocking their addon and factory unlocking armory. A straight path.

Zerg has pool unlocking den+lair+evo. Lair unlocks spire and nest. Hive unlocks deviler mound, ultralisk cavern and greater spire. straight path with floors/levels. they can pretty much pick anything from a floor all at once. den + spire. cavern + mound. no problem.

Protoss has gate unlocking cyber unlocking robotics, stargate, and citadel. But each of these only unlocks one additional building. Protoss has an actual branching tech tree. This means protoss has less diverse options with their available options because once they choose a path on their tech tree they are fully locked into it until its finished. they have to "complete" the chosen tech tree before diverting from it. If the chosen path somewhat fails its usually over for the toss.

Another is that arbiter needs time to become functional after already going through a long tech tree. Carrier needs a long time too after going through a long tech tree to get intercepters plus having to build additional stargates. want the carriers fast? less gateways which means exposed to a terran timing. neither zerg or terran is as exposed to timing attack as protoss is. Protoss also cant tech switch without a massive investment before being able to tech switch. zerg can build it all from their hatch. Terran can succeed without tech switches but does face the same problem toss does with a bio into mech switch in tvz.

In that sense the meta moving away from carrier and arbiter builds has given toss more freedom. Shuttle meta requires less spending into one tech tree they have to finish.

now I hope this makes sense because i am typing this at 5am haha

Protoss has less freedom and it more algorythmitacly locked into its strategies.
JDON MY SOUL!
mtcn77
Profile Joined September 2013
Turkey436 Posts
November 30 2024 09:06 GMT
#11
I think the recent Hiya vs Invasion game demonstrates in a PvT game what you should do as a protoss to gain a lead.
The fundamental hierarchy of the game time revolves around rushes and it goes from zerg to terran to protoss - protoss being the slowest. Rushes are fundamentally how you force the opponent into spending resources for defence late and out of time. Normally you should not be able to get a lead on another race with protoss by rushing to corner the opponent into an early end game since you are the slowest race, but this game shows how it can be done in mid game since you are also the strongest race. By stripping terrans of valuable midgame resources and also a successful drop, a protoss can generate a game breaking worker count advantage forcing the terran into a dilemma. Terran is left with his standing army and nothing more late game due to the worker count mismatch. What turns out is an aggressive push not backed by further reinforcements. Protoss weathers this and can prolong the response and therefore wins.
As explained, you need that much control in the game to win as a protoss. The game mechanics punish protoss for being slow and therefore victory comes late even with a seismic gap lead in development.
Turrican
prosatan
Profile Joined September 2009
Romania8290 Posts
November 30 2024 15:24 GMT
#12
On November 30 2024 18:06 mtcn77 wrote:
I think the recent Hiya vs Invasion game demonstrates in a PvT game what you should do as a protoss to gain a lead.
The fundamental hierarchy of the game time revolves around rushes and it goes from zerg to terran to protoss - protoss being the slowest. Rushes are fundamentally how you force the opponent into spending resources for defence late and out of time. Normally you should not be able to get a lead on another race with protoss by rushing to corner the opponent into an early end game since you are the slowest race, but this game shows how it can be done in mid game since you are also the strongest race. By stripping terrans of valuable midgame resources and also a successful drop, a protoss can generate a game breaking worker count advantage forcing the terran into a dilemma. Terran is left with his standing army and nothing more late game due to the worker count mismatch. What turns out is an aggressive push not backed by further reinforcements. Protoss weathers this and can prolong the response and therefore wins.
As explained, you need that much control in the game to win as a protoss. The game mechanics punish protoss for being slow and therefore victory comes late even with a seismic gap lead in development.


Please put a link to the game if you can, mtcn77...
Lee JaeDong Fighting! The only church that illuminates is the one that burns.
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Profile Joined December 2023
Netherlands953 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-11-30 17:33:56
November 30 2024 17:32 GMT
#13
On December 01 2024 00:24 prosatan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2024 18:06 mtcn77 wrote:
I think the recent Hiya vs Invasion game demonstrates in a PvT game what you should do as a protoss to gain a lead.
The fundamental hierarchy of the game time revolves around rushes and it goes from zerg to terran to protoss - protoss being the slowest. Rushes are fundamentally how you force the opponent into spending resources for defence late and out of time. Normally you should not be able to get a lead on another race with protoss by rushing to corner the opponent into an early end game since you are the slowest race, but this game shows how it can be done in mid game since you are also the strongest race. By stripping terrans of valuable midgame resources and also a successful drop, a protoss can generate a game breaking worker count advantage forcing the terran into a dilemma. Terran is left with his standing army and nothing more late game due to the worker count mismatch. What turns out is an aggressive push not backed by further reinforcements. Protoss weathers this and can prolong the response and therefore wins.
As explained, you need that much control in the game to win as a protoss. The game mechanics punish protoss for being slow and therefore victory comes late even with a seismic gap lead in development.


Please put a link to the game if you can, mtcn77...


think he means this one:



also if soulkey did not exist snow would have won last two ASL seasons, 90% confidence. you could argue maybe light would have won SSL and beaten snow in semi.
JDON MY SOUL!
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6635 Posts
November 30 2024 20:09 GMT
#14
On December 01 2024 02:32 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2024 00:24 prosatan wrote:
On November 30 2024 18:06 mtcn77 wrote:
I think the recent Hiya vs Invasion game demonstrates in a PvT game what you should do as a protoss to gain a lead.
The fundamental hierarchy of the game time revolves around rushes and it goes from zerg to terran to protoss - protoss being the slowest. Rushes are fundamentally how you force the opponent into spending resources for defence late and out of time. Normally you should not be able to get a lead on another race with protoss by rushing to corner the opponent into an early end game since you are the slowest race, but this game shows how it can be done in mid game since you are also the strongest race. By stripping terrans of valuable midgame resources and also a successful drop, a protoss can generate a game breaking worker count advantage forcing the terran into a dilemma. Terran is left with his standing army and nothing more late game due to the worker count mismatch. What turns out is an aggressive push not backed by further reinforcements. Protoss weathers this and can prolong the response and therefore wins.
As explained, you need that much control in the game to win as a protoss. The game mechanics punish protoss for being slow and therefore victory comes late even with a seismic gap lead in development.


Please put a link to the game if you can, mtcn77...


think he means this one:
https://youtu.be/Cqlj08sfLjc?si=ENE9P4OXBWKflhvh


also if soulkey did not exist snow would have won last two ASL seasons, 90% confidence. you could argue maybe light would have won SSL and beaten snow in semi.

Snow Always find a way to no win tho. Since season 14 i was expecting Snow to reach ASL finals. I was left speechless When Royal eliminated him in season 16 after having a 80+ winrate or some shit that guy TMNT posted. The maps never been so good for protoss these days. And the funny part is that those maps are in someway helping Soulkey to become a Bonjwa smh. I truly fear for the next season MP. Afreeca will try for sure to put a hold to SK streak.
prosatan
Profile Joined September 2009
Romania8290 Posts
November 30 2024 20:18 GMT
#15
Thank you friends
Lee JaeDong Fighting! The only church that illuminates is the one that burns.
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Profile Joined December 2023
Netherlands953 Posts
December 01 2024 00:06 GMT
#16
On December 01 2024 05:09 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2024 02:32 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
On December 01 2024 00:24 prosatan wrote:
On November 30 2024 18:06 mtcn77 wrote:
I think the recent Hiya vs Invasion game demonstrates in a PvT game what you should do as a protoss to gain a lead.
The fundamental hierarchy of the game time revolves around rushes and it goes from zerg to terran to protoss - protoss being the slowest. Rushes are fundamentally how you force the opponent into spending resources for defence late and out of time. Normally you should not be able to get a lead on another race with protoss by rushing to corner the opponent into an early end game since you are the slowest race, but this game shows how it can be done in mid game since you are also the strongest race. By stripping terrans of valuable midgame resources and also a successful drop, a protoss can generate a game breaking worker count advantage forcing the terran into a dilemma. Terran is left with his standing army and nothing more late game due to the worker count mismatch. What turns out is an aggressive push not backed by further reinforcements. Protoss weathers this and can prolong the response and therefore wins.
As explained, you need that much control in the game to win as a protoss. The game mechanics punish protoss for being slow and therefore victory comes late even with a seismic gap lead in development.


Please put a link to the game if you can, mtcn77...


think he means this one:
https://youtu.be/Cqlj08sfLjc?si=ENE9P4OXBWKflhvh


also if soulkey did not exist snow would have won last two ASL seasons, 90% confidence. you could argue maybe light would have won SSL and beaten snow in semi.


Snow Always find a way to no win tho. Since season 14 i was expecting Snow to reach ASL finals. I was left speechless When Royal eliminated him in season 16 after having a 80+ winrate or some shit that guy TMNT posted. The maps never been so good for protoss these days. And the funny part is that those maps are in someway helping Soulkey to become a Bonjwa smh. I truly fear for the next season MP. Afreeca will try for sure to put a hold to SK streak.



Season 17 SnOw looked like the 2nd strongest player after Soulkey. SSL1 he looked like the strongest after Soulkey and Light.

Also don't be surprised by RoyaL. When RoyaL's form peaks he is stupidly good. He just peaks so infrequently and inconsistently. RoyaL's been doing well against SnOw on occasions, winning sets of 7 or 9.`

And yeah this SSL season had mostly bad maps for zerg, and one crazy good map for zerg in Monty Hall.
JDON MY SOUL!
sertas
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden888 Posts
December 01 2024 01:14 GMT
#17
Protoss just seem to suffer versus zerg when played at the absolute highest levels
Garrl
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Scotland1974 Posts
December 01 2024 01:19 GMT
#18
(Wiki)Kongdoo/Afreeca Starleague Statistics

From last 6 ASLs top 20 is: 7 zerg, 7 terran, 6 protoss, which is as balanced a spread as you can get with 3 races.

Protoss isn't underrepresented here.
G5
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States2906 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-12-01 04:39:06
December 01 2024 04:37 GMT
#19
I think historically Protoss has had the least stable build orders in the game and is the easiest race to take advantage of if you play whatever the current text-book standard is for the meta. Because of this, there is inherently more variance in build orders for Protoss players than other races and Protoss players inherently take more risks than Zergs and Terrans from within the meta game because of how the race is designed.

Although taking these risks can yield decent win rates in overall games, it's a hard thing to place bets on different build orders and be correct against the best players in the world enough times to win an ASL.

The top Zerg players have also denied the best Protoss players from potential titles many times. Due to the match up design, it's almost impossible to be ahead of Zerg in whatever the current meta is. Zerg is typically setting the meta and Protoss is trying to come up with solutions to whatever the current meta is of Zerg.

Once you get past the mechanics and execution of Starcraft, it mostly just comes down to decision making which usually involves understanding the current meta and what the probability is of what the opponent is doing or going to do and what is the risk assessment involved with what your response is going to be. Protoss players' decision making involves higher amounts of risk imo. Which again, makes it hard to run through an entire tournament like ASL and come out on top.
SiarX
Profile Joined December 2021
104 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-12-02 12:11:30
December 01 2024 21:36 GMT
#20
misclick
1 2 3 4 5 20 21 22 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 12h 56m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 514
UpATreeSC 232
NeuroSwarm 169
SteadfastSC 162
IndyStarCraft 130
ForJumy 13
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 16123
Shuttle 172
Dewaltoss 158
Larva 65
Aegong 32
Sexy 21
Dota 2
Fuzer 192
monkeys_forever26
Counter-Strike
flusha262
Stewie2K258
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King51
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu516
Other Games
summit1g5154
FrodaN1536
Sick1125
fl0m790
mouzStarbuck275
ToD258
C9.Mang0155
PPMD49
Trikslyr41
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta19
• Reevou 4
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
• intothetv
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 5050
• Noizen28
League of Legends
• Doublelift3736
• imaqtpie907
• TFBlade831
• Shiphtur224
Other Games
• WagamamaTV408
• Scarra9
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
12h 56m
Zoun vs Classic
Map Test Tournament
13h 56m
Korean StarCraft League
1d 5h
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
1d 10h
RSL Revival
1d 12h
Reynor vs Cure
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Online Event
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
LiuLi Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.