On February 21 2025 08:11 HolySmokes wrote: I think the pros are already there. Something tells me Flash is behind this somehow, as I see his intelligence in their play. But Mini and Snow have been killing it against Zerg lately. They have a blistering 65% and 80!% win rate respectively over their last 20 PvZs. No freelo either, almost all games against Queen, SK, JD, Hero, and Action. Hydra busts have been no problem, and Mini even had a great win against SK the other day doing forge FE into 2 star. Just better play and better tactics, and maybe that's all they really needed.
That, and not being given away by the crowd through the transparent booths at SSL.
This coupled with the Protoss tech tree is the real reason why no Protoss was ever able to touch JangBang's achievements anymore.
Mini has been utilizing 2 star a few times now. Feels like he thinks its one of the better ways to get an advantage over zerg in the mid game rather than the norm. His most recent games that I watched against good zergs were: center 99, and 2x 2 star.
One thing I have noticed different between the pros and the regular protoss players is there is a comprehensive difference how a top player plays pvt different from pvz versus a regular player. Players like Snow and Flash are more likely to drop on top of siege tanks as a way to traverse faster and break up siege lines while a normal player tries to ball and drop near the sides like how you would normally play pvz, totally missing the gist of the protoss army. At least, that is what I assume.
On February 21 2025 08:11 HolySmokes wrote: I think the pros are already there. Something tells me Flash is behind this somehow, as I see his intelligence in their play. But Mini and Snow have been killing it against Zerg lately. They have a blistering 65% and 80!% win rate respectively over their last 20 PvZs. No freelo either, almost all games against Queen, SK, JD, Hero, and Action. Hydra busts have been no problem, and Mini even had a great win against SK the other day doing forge FE into 2 star. Just better play and better tactics, and maybe that's all they really needed.
That, and not being given away by the crowd through the transparent booths at SSL.
This coupled with the Protoss tech tree is the real reason why no Protoss was ever able to touch JangBang's achievements anymore.
Interestingly enough, judging by winrates, even he had most troubles with PvZ matchup.
On January 24 2025 16:04 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: I have seen shuttle, Mini and Snow all try to utiluze hallucinations vs terran multiple times. Hallucinations to tank shots from tanks to engage on large terran armies. It didnt work a single time because you ultimately do zero damage with the hallu units plus they end up blocking your own units. Hallu however was effective in escorting shuttle drops through turret lines to get storms off on scvs. Or to misdirect with fake arbiters. Also seen it used to fake out carrier movement by sending fake carriers through vision, and the real ones elsewhere. But that was one single time and it didnt make a difference lol.
It worked this time though:
My favorite Protoss moment last year =) but yeah it's extremely rare case.
That was awesome! Never seen this before. Thanks for sharing.
I think it's key to get the right number of clones, and maneuver them in a way so that they don't interfere with your units. Double damage is bad, but you get 2 clones, so you can still take a lot of damage. Interesting way to break into a high ground. Shuttle made a lot of zealot and archon clones, best units as they are the most tanky. Turning a shuttle into 3 is really good too.
What if you cast two hallucinations, one before, one after you make an Archon from a hallucinated HT+HT. You will end up with 2 hallucinated Archons and 2 real Archons. That's 1080HP for every 2HTs. That is freaking 6 Dragoons hp from 2 templars! PS: imagine saving 6 Dragoons every time you send 2 HTs with your other units. How long until you overwhelm and crush a zerg? I know for a fact this cannot be countered in the early game when zerg doesn't have lurkers.
On January 24 2025 16:04 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: I have seen shuttle, Mini and Snow all try to utiluze hallucinations vs terran multiple times. Hallucinations to tank shots from tanks to engage on large terran armies. It didnt work a single time because you ultimately do zero damage with the hallu units plus they end up blocking your own units. Hallu however was effective in escorting shuttle drops through turret lines to get storms off on scvs. Or to misdirect with fake arbiters. Also seen it used to fake out carrier movement by sending fake carriers through vision, and the real ones elsewhere. But that was one single time and it didnt make a difference lol.
My favorite Protoss moment last year =) but yeah it's extremely rare case.
That was awesome! Never seen this before. Thanks for sharing.
I think it's key to get the right number of clones, and maneuver them in a way so that they don't interfere with your units. Double damage is bad, but you get 2 clones, so you can still take a lot of damage. Interesting way to break into a high ground. Shuttle made a lot of zealot and archon clones, best units as they are the most tanky. Turning a shuttle into 3 is really good too.
What if you cast two hallucinations, one before, one after you make an Archon from a hallucinated HT+HT. You will end up with 2 hallucinated Archons and 2 real Archons. That's 1080HP for every 2HTs.
That could definitely be a play to bolster some timing attack. I agree, the meatshielding capabilities of hallucination need to be explored more.
On January 24 2025 16:04 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: I have seen shuttle, Mini and Snow all try to utiluze hallucinations vs terran multiple times. Hallucinations to tank shots from tanks to engage on large terran armies. It didnt work a single time because you ultimately do zero damage with the hallu units plus they end up blocking your own units. Hallu however was effective in escorting shuttle drops through turret lines to get storms off on scvs. Or to misdirect with fake arbiters. Also seen it used to fake out carrier movement by sending fake carriers through vision, and the real ones elsewhere. But that was one single time and it didnt make a difference lol.
My favorite Protoss moment last year =) but yeah it's extremely rare case.
That was awesome! Never seen this before. Thanks for sharing.
I think it's key to get the right number of clones, and maneuver them in a way so that they don't interfere with your units. Double damage is bad, but you get 2 clones, so you can still take a lot of damage. Interesting way to break into a high ground. Shuttle made a lot of zealot and archon clones, best units as they are the most tanky. Turning a shuttle into 3 is really good too.
What if you cast two hallucinations, one before, one after you make an Archon from a hallucinated HT+HT. You will end up with 2 hallucinated Archons and 2 real Archons. That's 1080HP for every 2HTs. That is freaking 6 Dragoons hp from 2 templars! PS: imagine saving 6 Dragoons every time you send 2 HTs with your other units. How long until you overwhelm and crush a zerg? I know for a fact this cannot be countered in the early game when zerg doesn't have lurkers.
But illusions receive double damage... Also storm effectively saves up more of your units by killing enemy units in mass, I think
On January 24 2025 16:04 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: I have seen shuttle, Mini and Snow all try to utiluze hallucinations vs terran multiple times. Hallucinations to tank shots from tanks to engage on large terran armies. It didnt work a single time because you ultimately do zero damage with the hallu units plus they end up blocking your own units. Hallu however was effective in escorting shuttle drops through turret lines to get storms off on scvs. Or to misdirect with fake arbiters. Also seen it used to fake out carrier movement by sending fake carriers through vision, and the real ones elsewhere. But that was one single time and it didnt make a difference lol.
My favorite Protoss moment last year =) but yeah it's extremely rare case.
That was awesome! Never seen this before. Thanks for sharing.
I think it's key to get the right number of clones, and maneuver them in a way so that they don't interfere with your units. Double damage is bad, but you get 2 clones, so you can still take a lot of damage. Interesting way to break into a high ground. Shuttle made a lot of zealot and archon clones, best units as they are the most tanky. Turning a shuttle into 3 is really good too.
What if you cast two hallucinations, one before, one after you make an Archon from a hallucinated HT+HT. You will end up with 2 hallucinated Archons and 2 real Archons. That's 1080HP for every 2HTs. That is freaking 6 Dragoons hp from 2 templars! PS: imagine saving 6 Dragoons every time you send 2 HTs with your other units. How long until you overwhelm and crush a zerg? I know for a fact this cannot be countered in the early game when zerg doesn't have lurkers.
But illusions receive double damage... Also storm effectively saves up more of your units by killing enemy units in mass, I think
2 storms on your initial investment vs 1 archons + 2 illusions with 1archon hp to tank.
I mean, we've had P take championships 4 times in the ASL/KSL era:
ASL shuttle (s1) rain (s5) mini (s12)
KSL rain (s3)
Not to mention plenty of deep runs into the semifinals/finals by Bisu, Mini, and the like (can you really blame them for losing to Flash, Light, Soulkey, her0?).
I'd say that while P may be weak in certain metas, they absolutely have the ability to show up and kick ass. For the record, I'm a Zerg player, and while I'll always be team Jaedong, some of my favorite players to watch are Protoss (Bisu, Mini, Best, Shuttle).
JangBang's achievements anymore.
EPT
