EPTWhy protoss always underperforms on pro level? - Page 20
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sas.Sziky
Hungary290 Posts
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
On February 15 2025 20:22 Soulforged wrote: As far as the Queen's game goes, I don't think taking 4th expo or getting +2 was necessarily a mistake, hatchery and a few larva is not that significant of an investment at that stage. I think he definitely got it too early. It wasn't just a few larva, he made a wave of I think 9 drones to send to his 4th when the Protoss army was imminent. Didn't get the return on it because he died shortly after, and reminds me of games I lose when I drone up too hard and don't have enough to fight P army. Agree with the PvT analogy, and similarly I would say the P made a mistake and should've been less greedy and had more units / tech to deal with T army. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia918 Posts
I was referring to those 9 drones as 'a few larva'. Realistically, at 150 supply before the main engagement, a group of units is not too critical, for either side. That's like "one more money storm acceptable" for Z. He'd be fine if he didn't take that much damage from storm. Like 3 storms hit(and killed) 5+ hydra, and a couple more landed and killed a full group. The opening of the fight was trading 10 hydras for 1 HT, then changing the screen and losing something like 5 and a lurker more to another storm. Remove just 2 of those and have a synchronized flank and he holds, then overwhelms with production later. And if Queen did the slow-down tactics/snipe attempts and storm baits on the move, had a better balanced flank ratio(rather than 20 supply out and 80 in), and actually moved out from most of the storms, it'd be a crushing victory. 12:30 to 13:20 was just not well handled. If you're gonna build a 60+ hydras, and not snipe templars with mutas, you better not stand in storm. Not gonna go into whole counter-attack-immediately-while-adding-sunkens-to-defense-line and other options. I can agree that defender has more stuff to do than the attacker there, but that's a pattern across all macthups, when it comes to holding dedicated timing attacks. A P, even at a progamer level, can lose a 50 supply advantage game to a poor engage vs a late-midgame terran push, this is no different. When that happens, we call it a throw. | ||
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
But I think it was what happened before that led to 12:30 being such a bad and difficult moment. If he had the 12 hydras from the 3rd to have more presence in the center, or if he wanted to keep them there (which I think was not necessarily a bad move, but he needed to make up for the lack of presence which he did not) and made 9 hydras instead of the drones (which was around 11:10 and 108 supply, a much more delicate moment in the game IMO because that's when they were contesting for control in the center), he would've been in a much better situation to handle Shuttle's push. But he just didn't have enough presence to do the tactics that normally Zergs can do as you said, and got pushed into a corner with too many storms on deck. You can't fight a P army with that many storms in an area that's not that open. I agree that SK probably would've handled it better, and that the better strategy would've been to have more lurkers to resist Shuttle's push. I mean usually that is what happens. But I guess Queen thought he was more ahead than he really was. | ||
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G5
United States2898 Posts
Shuttle traded Zealots out to force lings instead of drones and he microd them well. Effectively slowing his tech and army size a bit to slow down Queen's eco. Shuttle then went for enough sair to try and force Queen to stay on ground whilst rushing Templar so he doesn't die to a hydra bust. Queen makes hydra and forces a bunch of cannons while Shuttle tries to get his hair/ HT tech up. Then Shuttle hard cuts probes and does a 2 base all-in. Queen probably had enough to stop it but didn't pick off any HTs or Obs and he was out of position and micro'd poorly, so he died. How Shuttle played this was similar to how he beat Queen in ASL qualifiers last year and isn't a bad strat against Queen who's biggest flaw according to basically every pro is that he tries to play "too perfect" meaning that if you do something like this, hard cutting probes and 2 base all-inning, you might catch him over droning. In this game it was even easier for Shuttle because Queen was simply out of position during the move out and didn't micro well. Those arguing this game was super ADV one player or the other is wrong imo. Seemed like a pretty even game, maybe slightly Z favored, and Shuttle just went for a hard all-in and it worked. I dont really see what's so odd about this game. I've seen this exact game play out hell of times. Sometimes Z holds, sometimes they don't. A lot of it comes down to positioning and micro and Queen was out of position and Shuttle micro'd better. Simple as that as far as I can see. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1546 Posts
Protoss going 2 bases all in is the most difficult push to counter from my perspective because zerg needs near-optimal situation to engage with good micro but this one is all on Zero imo. He messed up pretty bad. | ||
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TMNT
2656 Posts
On February 16 2025 04:16 G5 wrote: I truly don't understand the Shuttle vs Queen game debates. Shuttle traded Zealots out to force lings instead of drones and he microd them well. Effectively slowing his tech and army size a bit to slow down Queen's eco. Shuttle then went for enough sair to try and force Queen to stay on ground whilst rushing Templar so he doesn't die to a hydra bust. Queen makes hydra and forces a bunch of cannons while Shuttle tries to get his hair/ HT tech up. Then Shuttle hard cuts probes and does a 2 base all-in. Queen probably had enough to stop it but didn't pick off any HTs or Obs and he was out of position and micro'd poorly, so he died. How Shuttle played this was similar to how he beat Queen in ASL qualifiers last year and isn't a bad strat against Queen who's biggest flaw according to basically every pro is that he tries to play "too perfect" meaning that if you do something like this, hard cutting probes and 2 base all-inning, you might catch him over droning. In this game it was even easier for Shuttle because Queen was simply out of position during the move out and didn't micro well. Those arguing this game was super ADV one player or the other is wrong imo. Seemed like a pretty even game, maybe slightly Z favored, and Shuttle just went for a hard all-in and it worked. I dont really see what's so odd about this game. I've seen this exact game play out hell of times. Sometimes Z holds, sometimes they don't. A lot of it comes down to positioning and micro and Queen was out of position and Shuttle micro'd better. Simple as that as far as I can see. Maybe you didn't watch it carefully enough. His first zealots didn't trade well. The first 2-3 trade decently with lings (meaning no one came out ahead), but after that he sent another 3 that got surrounded and died quickly. He also sent out 2 DTs which died for nothing and totally lost map control. His Sairs didn't do much, and he was forced to build a bunch of deadweigh cannons. At their level, those losses are huge especially when they keep adding up like that. The biggest indicator that Shuttle was far behind is Queen catching up with him in supply when they were both around 100, WHILE ALSO having a 4th. You can randomly pick a bunch of PvZ games from pros and you'll never see a game where it's still 50/50 and Zerg having equal supply with Protoss, let alone 2 bases ahead. There's a reason Shuttle teammates were upset before the push. You have also almost never seen 150-supply Protoss smash 150-supply Zerg (unless P has a DA). The games that you have seen play out like that a hell of times are probably 150 supply P vs 110-120 supply Zerg and yeah that mid game push is devastating from Protoss and happens quite often. But those games never start out like this one. Those games often involve P being very active on the map in mid game and disrupting Zerg tempo a lot to again an advantage. Just think about it from the Protoss perspective, if I haven't done anything to gain me some advantage against Zerg up until the 12th minute, and instead all I have achieved is bleeding units and spending money on unused static defence, am I supposed to have a push with 50% chance to win? | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1419 Posts
1) droned up when opponent went all in 2) units at 6o'clock and 1o'clock 3) He had units still leftover at 1o'clock even when he was scrambling his units together 4) he forgot his +2 so it was delayed 5) got miracle stormed and attacked half of his army was elsewhere 6) still left units at 5o'clock and 1o'clock when he belatedly reinforced untouched I will release the video tomorrow or so. I didn't highlight Queen's team reaction much since it didnt meld well together but they were in utter disbelief the entire time | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands814 Posts
On February 16 2025 06:53 jinjin5000 wrote: Queen had 1) droned up when opponent went all in 2) units at 6o'clock and 1o'clock 3) He had units still leftover at 1o'clock even when he was scrambling his units together 4) he forgot his +2 so it was delayed 5) got miracle stormed and attacked half of his army was elsewhere 6) still left units at 5o'clock and 1o'clock when he belatedly reinforced untouched I will release the video tomorrow or so. I didn't highlight Queen's team reaction much since it didnt meld well together but they were in utter disbelief the entire time exactly this. Queen mentions it post game iirc. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey321 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands814 Posts
On February 16 2025 20:46 mtcn77 wrote: Queen is not even a good player. You can trace his fallout from the current meta. He was left back in 9734. Why you lament over him and downplay a protoss win to prove protoss loses ultimately? It seems some people are stuck at the past. wut. Queen has been a top online performing zerg the last few months. everybody loses games. doesnt make em bad. you are halu. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey321 Posts
On February 16 2025 21:36 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: wut. Queen has been a top online performing zerg the last few months. everybody loses games. doesnt make em bad. you are halu. You don't watch zerg as main, but I do. I kept ringing about queen. He is totally off the radar of zerg players. | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2748 Posts
Side one: Zerg was ahead but threw the game Side two: Ape 2 base all in pays off If I'm missing a side please add, I don't always understand what you guys are arguing, I might have lumped some opinions together that actual differ. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey321 Posts
On February 16 2025 22:44 Navane wrote: Can someone link that game it's apparently the hype of the town now I want to form my own opinion and take sides. Side one: Zerg was ahead but threw the game Side two: Ape 2 base all in pays off If I'm missing a side please add, I don't always understand what you guys are arguing, I might have lumped some opinions together that actual differ. They are now construing protoss is so weak that eventhough weak protoss players win, it is because zerg players throw the game which is totally misleading the point since the zerg in question is Queen and he has been playing this way for 2 seasons already and they are doing this to disprove protoss can win in good conditions that they do not approve of like fighting for map control and not throwing an FE. PS: self-reflection - I have been dissing on Queen for two seasons without any fault of his. It was a game Soulkey played. This is the game I was trying to trace, I had found the cross spawn before in which Queen was present, however couldn't find the near spawn one. This is likely it since I know Tasteless cast it and it is the same map. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey321 Posts
On February 17 2025 03:24 M2 wrote: Guys, to what extend do you think the big tournaments format where they can prepare for a specific opponent, race and map additionally impacts the balance? I feel like T and Z (more specifically T>Z>P) benefit more from being able to prepare like that. Soulkey used his wildcard on JD to replace him with JYJ in the Ro16, so it is very relevant that specific matchups determine who progresses into the next round however people don't take it into account that ai statistics of 8 million games would show that. Yet, it totally unravels who won in the SSL Autumn down to who won each individual stage. It could even be studied if there were any outliers since I look like a magician and people call it witchcraft since ELO results are totally different. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1419 Posts
On February 16 2025 22:44 Navane wrote: Can someone link that game it's apparently the hype of the town now I want to form my own opinion and take sides. Side one: Zerg was ahead but threw the game Side two: Ape 2 base all in pays off If I'm missing a side please add, I don't always understand what you guys are arguing, I might have lumped some opinions together that actual differ. Video other guy linked has nothing to do with discussion | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey321 Posts
Soulkey winning is so out of the ordinary, maybe because protoss lost their way. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1419 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey321 Posts
On February 17 2025 04:18 jinjin5000 wrote: I'm convinced mtcn is an ai poster You guys really need to step up your game without namecalling. Shuttle stuck to his guns and won. That is what is so hard to get through your bias. I already showed you a game Bisu wasn't afraid of Jaedong and lured Jaedong into the same early game zergling rush trap that kills zerg economy. It was the game that got forgotten in the nexus timing discussion. | ||
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