Why protoss always underperforms on pro level? - Page 19

TMNT

3102 Posts

February 14 2025 23:16 GMT

#361

Somehow we're having a top foreign Zerg player trying to gaslight the community that Zerg on equal supply should not hold a Protoss push.

Ignoring the fact that Zero's army was scattered, didn't let Protoss come to the choke, and dodged almost no storms (there was one that hit 12 hydras from start to finish). Also funny that Zero himself was looking at the upgrade bar watching the replay. So maybe delaying taking that 4th 10 seconds would have helped huh (not that it was necessary mind. could have won the fight easily if he executed it right).

Maybe jinjin should do a translation of the teammates' reactions to educate Eon.

mtcn77

Turkey645 Posts

February 14 2025 23:18 GMT

#362

On February 15 2025 07:48 FlaShFTW wrote:
I mean just look at the minimap, you can clearly see Zero doesn't have all of his units. He has some moving to his 4th base, and some remaining at 6.

Also from this last screenshot, Zero should be patient here knowing he has a 4th base. He just needs to hold and he can continue to scale. He should have made Shuttle come deeper into the choke point where he has two sides to hit, and then use the units still on the map to encircle Shuttle from behind. Instead, he took the fight at arguably the worst possible position and timing because he panicked. There was plenty of time for him to react and respond better to Shuttle's attack.

It's the same thing on a map like Radeon. If Protoss is attacking into you, do you take the fight right at the choke? Or do you let them come forward first where you have greater surface area to attack from your natural and your third at the same time? The same concepts apply here.

You don't understand the first thing about zerg. If Zero would have retreated, Dragoons would actually push forward. Static defences and lurkers mean nothing to dragoons. You literally do think Zerg can replace buildings.

[sc1f]eonzerg

Belgium6791 Posts

February 14 2025 23:18 GMT

#363

On February 15 2025 08:16 TMNT wrote:
Somehow we're having a top foreign Zerg player trying to gaslight the community that Zerg on equal supply should not hold a Protoss push.

Ignoring the fact that Zero's army was scattered, didn't let Protoss come to the choke, and dodged almost no storms (there was one that hit 12 hydras from start to finish). Also funny that Zero himself was looking at the upgrade bar watching the replay. So maybe delaying taking that 4th 10 seconds would have helped huh (not that it was necessary mind. could have won the fight easily if he executed it right).

Maybe jinjin should do a translation of the teammates' reactions to educate Eon.

This actually just shows your skill is low and you dont even know what you are talking about sadly.

But i not gonna be this mean. I greatly appreciate you updating the proleague threads and shit.

Nothing against you personally. I just understood with this thread that is all about not understanding the game exactly.

jinjin5000

United States1467 Posts

February 14 2025 23:23 GMT

#364

this thread motivated me

TMNT

3102 Posts

February 14 2025 23:24 GMT

#365

On February 15 2025 08:18 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:

Show nested quote +

Come on Eon. Did Queen throw that game? Just answer.

mtcn77

Turkey645 Posts

February 14 2025 23:27 GMT

#366

#2 gaslighter calling the shots how to play zerg to a zerg pro, lol!
Scattered is good. If you aren't scattering your units, you will encourage protoss not having to look out for his back rank and just pushes with psi storms and once dragoons are entrenched, it is gg.
You underestimate the value of hotboxes. You can see the fineness of Shuttle's zealot dragoon mix. The challenge is avoiding running out of zealots and as you can see no side of the protoss ball has a higher zealot mix - it is homogeneous. Try doing that yourself. Units will just formation move and not let you. Even Starcraft AI's use 4400apm to fully control zergling walls. It is a highly coveted skill.

FlaShFTW

United States10252 Posts

February 15 2025 00:04 GMT

#367

On February 15 2025 07:58 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Brother how do you compare this map to Radeon. Are you deadass ? LOL

And not Radeon is way more open. There is nothing in common.

Ok watch Zero pov and see how much pressure got to him all of sudden. Take in mind The way Shutte played it was looking like he wanted to take an expansion. Then he shifted intentions 180 and zero Wasnt even Sure where Shuttle was going to Strike. You can even see him sending army to his 4. And that was a good thing if you ask me cuz now he can attack from two sides. But the big issue is the lurker defense in the main is way too rushed and really exposed.

https://vod.sooplive.co.kr/player/151028815?change_second=24167

Man and this is you watching two POVS seeing exactly what happened and coming with different solutions. Zero literally has like 40 seconds to decide all that and take the right decision. That is why i said you guys giving 0 credit to Shuttle here doesnt make any sense.

The concepts are the same, fight in a more open setting than going into the choke. Radeon is more open yes, but again, that just makes Zero's decision to fight in a very narrow choke even worse, so thanks for proving my point of how bad this fight was for Zero. Glad we agree now.

All this pressure still doesn't justify him taking the worst fight possible in the worst position possible. I like how you just conveniently keep intentionally dodging that point because you know there's nothing else to be said. Yes, Shuttle put pressure which forced Zero's units north, which he read as an attack on his 4th. So he misread the situation, but even if Shuttle commits his whole force to taking out the 4th, Zero can easily backstab with such a short rush distance from where his army was situated to Shuttle's natural anyways. You act like Zero is brand new to this game and has never been in this situation before. He should do better as an ASL champion and a veteran of this game.

Finally, 40 seconds is a fucking lifetime in starcraft mate. It's not like Zero made a split second decision. 40 seconds? Bro that's 3 full cycles of larva spawning.

FlaShFTW

United States10252 Posts

February 15 2025 00:06 GMT

#368

On February 15 2025 08:18 mtcn77 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Obvious troll is troll.

TMNT

3102 Posts

February 15 2025 00:12 GMT

#369

It's funny because Shuttle's teammates, particularly JD, and there chat were calling him "Young Mo" (Jangbi's name) the whole time during that fight and here we have Zerg players (one top and one noob) acting like Queen was in a difficult spot in that game.

mtcn77

Turkey645 Posts

February 15 2025 00:14 GMT

#370

On February 15 2025 09:06 FlaShFTW wrote:

Show nested quote +

Obvious troll is troll.

How is it troll? Dragoons hit twice more on overlords and buildings. If zerg cannot keep them away from base how do you suppose the fight is going to progress? You guys keep talking like a sunken is going to make the difference not knowing the first thing about zerg defence: units are expendable, buildings are not.

mtcn77

Turkey645 Posts

February 15 2025 00:21 GMT

#371

On February 15 2025 09:12 TMNT wrote:
It's funny because Shuttle's teammates, particularly JD, and there chat were calling him "Young Mo" (Jangbi's name) the whole time during that fight and here we have Zerg players (one top and one noob) acting like Queen was in a difficult spot in that game.

Obviously ZvP is not your forte. It is mine. Don't call people noob who can discuss their main like a game of chess.

[sc1f]eonzerg

Belgium6791 Posts

February 15 2025 00:30 GMT

#372

On February 15 2025 09:04 FlaShFTW wrote:

Show nested quote +

The funny part is that on Radeon if you got to that situation and you do what you are saying you are basically giving up your third. On Radeon the kind of Timing that Shuttle did vs zero is way more effective.

40 seconds is a life time haha.. I promess to you for zero it wasnt. But like i said before we are not going to reach any point with this argument. Is pretty clear that your opinion was already decided from the get go. I even took the time to explain to you step by step and at the end of the day it was all a waste of time.

It is a shame. I remember i even helped you to cast ASL when you were doing it with Bisudagger and he couldnt do it.
For some reason you shitting on people that gave you the hand before.

I will conclude this arguments now.

TMNT

3102 Posts

February 15 2025 01:34 GMT

#373

You guys remember all those jinjin videos with pros commentaries of ASL games? And how quickly they go "the game is 70/30" just after players select their build. And if someone suffers some early damages it will become "90/10".

Here we have Shuttle losing every zealots in the early game, not even trading well with lings let alone getting a drone or forcing a sunken, DTs getting caught red handed with no kills, 4 Corsairs killing a grand total of 1 Overlord (and dying themselves later), 5 cannons throwing down which Zerg didn't even touch, on equal supply with a 4-base Zerg. And his teammates, the progamers, were calling him Jangbi (yep that's how bad his situation was).

You let Artosis cast that game and even he would call out how in deep shit Shuttle was. Yet Eonzerg here is acting like our comedian of Proleague is hitting a legendary timing (by the way he tried to take a 3rd but couldn't so he decided to make a last ditch attempt - that's how he timed his timing lol) that puts Zerg at tremendous pressure and *only* has 40 seconds to react. Lmao. All that and he has the audacity to be condescending.

RJBTVYOUTUBE

Netherlands1061 Posts

February 15 2025 02:56 GMT

#374

Queen definitely threw the game(not hard, just a soft), but Shuttle timed his attack well on purpose. Queen pulled too many of his groups back into the choked area, and sent 1 group too far up north. Queen was trying to buy time for attack upgrade and Shuttle was 100% aware of this. Shuttle pushed with grade advantage. Queen also had too many units too clumped up in that choke area which cost him his chokepoint advantage. He also didn't have his lurkers into position, and when trying to get them into position, the number of hydralisks he had clumped up made it too hard to properly set them up mid fight while also having to micro hydralisks out of storms at the same time. Had he split off 1 more group of hydralisks he would've had a much better distribution of hydralisk over surface area and maybe been able to 1) force shuttle to retreat poorly and buy time for upgrade or 2) shuttle still tries to brute forces but takes way more damage because of the distribution of hydra lurker.

He also lost 1 entire group of hydralisks + a lurker to 1 storm.

HolySmokes

56 Posts

February 15 2025 04:08 GMT

#375

Crazy, the egos bumping around in this thread. Thread is seriously losing traction and I think eonzerg is intending to do so. Really can't actually be that dense. Yeah everyone is free to watch the game and see that Queen really misplayed that moment and let Shuttle march out for free. Just goes to show just because you're good at something doesn't mean you are necessarily an authority to speak on it. Appeal to authority fallacy. Some ppl are good at BW because of mechanical skill, and some because of game sense. If Eon is not being deliberately sabotaging, he is clearly a player of the former.

HolySmokes

56 Posts

February 15 2025 04:17 GMT

#376

Btw shoutout to Soulforged, who I think ironically called out exactly what happened in the game before it was even brought into the thread and everyone got into this tedious debate about it.

"IMO 40 probe pressure plays are kind of an equivalent of staying on 35 drones making hydra for a long time. Can kill greed,"

Which is exactly what happened. I knew you knew your stuff SF, and you should give yourself more credit.

FlaShFTW

United States10252 Posts

February 15 2025 04:46 GMT

#377

On February 15 2025 09:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:

Show nested quote +

wtf does this even mean? You did me a favor before so I'm not allowed to criticize or disagree with you anymore? wtf is this logic? No, fuck that noise bro, I can disagree with you whenever I want to.

QRCode

United States36 Posts

February 15 2025 06:32 GMT

#378

Zero was doing fine until about the 10 minute mark, when he started to make some critically bad decisions. He tried to get his 4th up and running too early, while putting a little too much into denying Shuttle's third. He stretched himself thin at the wrong time and really needed to bolster his hydra/lurker army and keep control over the middle before trying all that. Shuttle was just sitting there massing a deathball and he didn't respect it as he should have. Then his army denying the third got out of position, and his midline got pushed all the way back to his nat choke, which was an awful place to fight. And he again found himself doing too much, but this time because he needed to scramble everything together to defend, but it was too late.

Soulforged

Latvia935 Posts

February 15 2025 11:22 GMT

#379

Y'all should chill.
I was speaking about 7-8 min period of the game specifically, and trade-offs of economy and aggression, the impact at 8-10 min.
After that the game gets too complex to talk about it on a forum post, best decision would heavily depend on relative economies and armies of the players.

If we talk about theory broadly, the probes beyond 40 pay for themselves and their pylon costs in good 2 minutes(due to oversaturation), after which they provide extra.
The decision to make them or not is at 7 min. If P skips them, but forces Z to make more units, great for P.
If Z didn't have to make more units to deal with extra P units(for any reason, can be many), P is more behind than they should be. Are they dead? No. Do they have less money than they'd have otherwise, even accounting for money spent on probes? Yes.
If they never re-probe...probably around 1000 minerals-spent-on-army behind by 13 min.
This is a significant amount, but not as important as having a good engagement / not that much relative to the total army size.
Obviously, if P feels they're dead and there's no point trying to catch up in economy, and that they have one hail mary attack, there's no point to adding probes on a delay, either.

This isn't rocket science.

I also never said that P has to get 56 probes, the entire post was about how it is a goddamn trade off.

The only reason I brought it up, was because thread spent few pages discussing probe cutting alternatives. And cutting at 7min is the most viable version that I know of.

As far as the Queen's game goes, I don't think taking 4th expo or getting +2 was necessarily a mistake, hatchery and a few larva is not that significant of an investment at that stage. That was just more pressure on Shuttle / made P push more all-in.

As far as mistakes go, there was no counter-attack attempt, no reinforcement cut-off, no attempt to snipe HTs on the move or force some storms at least, and the flanks with groups from Z 4th and P 3rd were very late(and also didn't arrive simultaneously).
Fighting in a choke with hydra-lurker is fine, but need more units outside on the flank side, and flanks shouldn't be late.
At 12:40 we can see that there's too many hydras boxed in. He's also stepped into the choke for snipes and ate massive storms, instead of sticking to outside the choke. Snipe attempts are fine, standing in storm isn't.

That game looks like a PvT where P was ahead, T went for a 2 base all-in, and P let the Terran roll up to their natural and siege it uncontested, then fought with a desynced army(that walked around terrain in a line into siege fire). Happens.

Someone like SK would probably go for a lurker contain, instead.

I don't see any value in discussing the 1 base vs 1 base mining efficiency after Z loses their army, main and natural(and P has extra gas).

mtcn77

Turkey645 Posts

February 15 2025 11:45 GMT

#380

The delusional bunch has devolved from having to defend knocked out protoss players to unqualifying zerg players now in order to prove protoss is weak and not the players like I said.
Throw games of KCL used to be match fixing scandals back in the day. Find something more relevant to discuss.

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