|
On February 12 2025 19:08 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 13:24 NoobSkills wrote:On February 12 2025 09:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On February 11 2025 03:27 Soulforged wrote:On February 11 2025 01:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Hell i have seen Protoss doing it on 38 workers. IMO 40 probe pressure plays are kind of an equivalent of staying on 35 drones making hydra for a long time. Can kill greed, will fall behind vs solid defensive play, if didn't overstay on it can still transition out, etc. But well, you know all of it better than me  https://vod.sooplive.co.kr/player/151034577?change_second=28029This is a perfect example of what im talking about. 35 drones doesnt really compare to 40 protoss workers. Specially when zerg has to mine from 3 expos to make it efficient while protoss can be super efficient on 1 base. I feel like Protoss players obsess too much with a 50 workers eco early on. And in most of cases is counter productive. When i say Protoss players i mean low skill like you. Progamers actually know how to balance that stuff. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this BS? Zerg workers are similar enough in efficiency to all other races. They mine from an extra base because crowding lowers efficiency universally and they need the extra hatchery anyway. So 35 drones in fact clears a 40 probe 1 base. As for protoss players and lack of one on top. I don't know sure I'll accept the race could be weaker, the maps could be worse. But when we have periods where wall busts are super popular in PvZ, and for a minute or two the protoss gets off zero scouting, and adds no cannons, not even 1. Or where they slam into corsairs just to lose them despite the massive investment they are while knowing the hard counter has been massed, when they could wait out for a better opportunity to go for the overlord insta-win kill move. Maybe their spell is too micro intesnive, but if you have 12 should you not have it? Also why do you need so many early at times? You can literally 2 starport later, while getting more universal tech online sooner. Why in late game are there no reavers anymore they are constant value. I'm sure there is plenty more. And maybe you can claim I am dead wrong in some of them, but all? I feel like when there is a recipe they just all follow it and haven't broken through. Like they don't stop and say oh shit, my 2 base zealot storm push has zero chance of working, let me instead use them to secure a 3rd and quick 4th and play defensive with heavy storm and do a later push. They just live on the razors edge and full send. Obviously this isn't always the meta has come and gone. It is almost like protoss pro players hive mind it which means that zergs can practice against one they've practiced against all IMO. I feel like you could answer all this by watching the game i linked. If two players mine out and the zerg player send 40 drones to 1 base and the protoss uses 40 workers to mine from 1 expo. Guess who actually hass better eco ? In fact all those protoss players handle hydra bust pretty well these days. Is not exagerate as you protoss fans make it seems. The problem comes with Snow or Mini or Bisu underperforming offline that make those builds shine more.
I mean maybe protoss, but is it that much of a difference really?
As for the hydra bust, yes I agree now, but I am talking in general. During the hydra bust era and even now they still happen. But routinely they'll go minutes without scouting at that point and not build a 2nd or 3rd cannon. At that point maybe you cannot scout, sure, but then the cannon is no longer optional, especially if the zerg has an overlord at your natural, and lings out front. Now you could min/max such a thing maybe your corsair is about to come out, but for whatever reason it isn't time to scout, maybe you start the cannons at the proper time, then cancel. However, the deeper point was the refusal to just simply build the cannons even though at that time period 90% of game (bull shit number) were hydra busts. I get not wanting to build the cannon, but at that point given the bullshit number provided, you just do it. This isn't some delusional protoss fanboy statement, I personally love all the races, I just think that a lot of protoss users do not adapt they have locked themselves into narrow paths and do not deviate no matter the circumstance. Like oh no, you built too many cannons, and your timing attack won't work, well your natural is far safer, so you can send your full army to a 3rd and get it up easier or at all, even if that wasn't a part of your origional plan. And now instead of an 8 gate all in, maybe you 12 gate and take a forth off the pressure to maintain the 12 gate prodution. And that might be a terrible adaptation and the wrong idea, maybe it is reaver, maybe it is split map, maybe it is something else entirely, but if you box yourself into X every single time, not only does your opponent have a ton of practice against it, they will always know where they stand and can make the right choices.
|
[B]On February 13 2025 05:41 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:[/
I watch starcraft. I dont follow stats from people . Soulkey since he won his last ASL he is being smashed by Snow multiple times. Im pretty sure vs Mini too but he also beat mini back.
You don't feel this kind of logic kind of dumb?
So you don't follow stats, basically dismissing the h2h stats, then proceed with trusting the few games you saw despite it not being the full picture? Anyway pretty sure you're just talking out of your ass because since ASL Soulkey is leading Snow 6-3. So much for being smashed.
We keep mentioniong Soma when is being away for so long and we realistically dont know what form or shape he is and how long it will take for him to be the zerg before SOulkey Not a goat but fit the description status. He could very well comeback and get destroyed by Snow bisu and Mini.
But this is already an area of we dont really know what is gonna look like.
It doesn't matter. We're talking about race over long periods of time, not the current state of Zerg players. It's a counter point to you saying Protoss is dominating Proleague. Well they are not and even if they are it's because there are top players of the other races missing. By the way you seemed to have no problem when mentioning Jangbi though?
Shuttle just smashed Queen yesterday with what you would call a safe style. I just dont buy this narratives of this race can do this or that cuz of this or cuz of that. Cuz i just watch too much starcraft and i know very well what is possible and what is not. I know how powerful can a race be if it is played right.
I need to watch this game to see what actually happened but it's still one game. One game.
Soma algo got eliminated in a round of 24. Jaedong even Effort at some point and Queen. I dont come here screaming Terran is imbalanced. I could very well if i was naive and will not understand what actually lead to their defeat. And what strengs or whatever is missing or not using to their full potential.
Well but this is not exactly the reason people are claiming Protoss weak is it? Not because sometimes they were eliminated in Ro24.
I get that Protoss didnt really win that many ASLs. But still made a good amount of Finals. When you reach a final stage of a tourney after playing so many rounds is wrong to call imbalance. You are just not performing at your level that lead to that point or your level is just not good enough to defeat your opponent. It is what it is.
10 final apps out of 38 spots which equals 26% (ideally should be 33%). Even if we don't care about Protoss win ratio in finals (25%, and ideally should be 50%), that alone already proves our point. And can you provide a counter argument to the KCM stats?
|
By the way, back to the point raised by Bonyth earlier: in every strategy game the balance is adjusted based on the performance at the top. That is to say the default and underlying assumption is always that the talent pool is distributed equally between the factions in the game (races in SC), and any balance issues would stem from the game design. And that's why there are balance patches in the other games.
Only in this SC1 community there is this weird obsession that our game is the perfect game that leads to blaming the players instead. But then in the early days there were patches for SC1. So let's imagine a world where Reavers and Dragoons' shots just hit the targets instantly and it would never be patched and Protoss won all the trophies. In that case I would like to see Zerg and Terran players saying no no the game is fine we just need to optimize our builds etc. lmao
|
I must be unlucky i watched Snow smashing 3 games in a row forcing him to take breaks all the time. When i say i watch games i actually mean i watch a lot of games. LIKE A LOT OF GAMES. I actually watch Countless of historic games.
Thats why i dont trust stats 100% . Cuz at the end of the day they dont tell the entire story.
All those dumb games that Snow lose in ASL to Soulkey where he didnt care to close his wall and SK just rungby his lings and killed canons were loses he could have avoud easily. In fact he does that all the time online. Online he scout the right thing most of the time 85% i watch his games. To the point that sometimes i think he is streamcheating.
Who is missing tho that you are saying Protoss is dominating for that reason ?
And why is it so hard for you to admit that such player is just way better than your protoss player ?
So when Snow or Mini gets eliminated in the round of 24 u never said stuff like Oh but Protoss is so hard oh 1 mistake and they get eliminated in a bo1. Ohh ohh. Well. Protoss actually dominate in proleagues that is a bo1..
is not just 1 game. Is countless games like that. But Protoss fans only focus on bad performances to claim imbalance.
So you are Saying that the Greatest players in starcraft history deservers a 33% in Finals to be balanced.
If FlaSh actually made 20 finals vs Snow do you actually think that for it to be balanced it has to be 10-10. Like wut ?
Im just saying is player performance and is pretty obvious when we are seeing the same individual winning everything.
That logic is pretty interesting to me.
KCM is an interesting thing.
is An all kill format that rotates zvp zvt tvz tvp depending who you playing. There is also revives that can be done and players can revive the best player of their team. It also happens that KCM dont follow strickly the maps trends. They are usually late to switch maps with the ASL cycles.
Sometimes they dont even use the top of their races but lesser players.
Starcraft has been unpatched for 20+ years. And in every era Every race has shown dominance. Others longer than others.
Look at Royal and JYJ. They both won an ASL.You look at them now and they are most mediocre players you will ever see. And no one even remember games from their ASL runs. But they contributed to the stats. What Snow your mini shit on them for breakfast. Is not even funny. But yet they contributed to the stats. But i mean i guess cuz of imbalanced those f*ckers won the ASL. But the imbalanced is gone now ?..
|
On February 13 2025 12:02 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2025 11:36 WombaT wrote:On February 13 2025 09:10 G5 wrote:On February 13 2025 06:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On February 13 2025 01:48 FlaShFTW wrote:
Jangbi was an excellent player no doubt, but I would weigh his 2 OSLs lower than others with 2 OSLs (Boxer, OOV, Garimto) This is crazy. The last OSL as far as i know the players that werent part of OSL yes they focused more on SC2. But even So Jangbi and Fantasy were getting quality practise for the FInals. Flash was helping Fantasy aswell. You just dont forget playing starcraft cuz you have been playing sc2 LOL.Look at Rain Soulkey Queen Snow Flash Jaedong. Any of the guys that comeback years after competing in sc2 they still phenomenal players. Is actually shocking you claiming that those 2 OSLs were meaningless tbh. Definitely not meaningless but less significant (or less difficult) would be more correct. I won WCG USA in 2010 when SC2 beta came out and that tournament, along with everything in SC1 was severely easier because people we playing SC2 so much. Literally the final was Nyoken and myself, the only two American players who didn't switch to SC2. It was like this at all levels at that time. I'll add that I throw less significant or less difficult around guys like Garimto as well because literally everyone was so terrible back then that the game is hardly recognizable. When Boxer and especially when Oov and NaDa started winning, players were pretty damn good and the scene was ultra competitive. That tracks as per foreigners switching to SC2 and that new pasture opening up. I’m not sure it necessarily applies to those last Starleagues in quite the same way. Or the last Proleague for that matter. It’s your last chance to make your mark in a game you’ve been a high level pro in for years, with no 100% guarantee you’ll make it in the new title. Be that taking a first Starleague, or solidifying an existing legacy. That seems a pretty big motivator. I think subsequently as well someone like Fantasy really stuck around in SC2 because he wanted to win and compete in tournaments, and that’s partly why he didn’t really return to BW wholesale. Jangbi also didn’t really stick around long in SC2 and also didn’t return to BW properly subsequently. I dunno, that’s my recollection for Fantasy and what he said. I may be entirely wrong! Just feels that the regular prestige + the last shot ever at it is too potent a combo for potential contenders not to bite If you were a pro and you made your living off gaming, it was stupid to still focus on SC1 instead of SC2. Immediately GSLs and other tournaments had higher prize pools than OSLs and I mean significantly higher. Also, sponsors and teams expected you to play SC2. Jangbi didn't even win his tournaments during the beta and early SC2 scene which started basically at the beginning of 2010. Effort and FlaSh were still snatching titles in 2010 when SC2 released. Jangbi won his titles in 2011 and 2012 when it was full fledged SC2 and the SC1 pro scene was decimated. Jangbi really never won anything during the true KeSPA era / peak SC1. He came close once or twice but never won until his competition was SEVERELY weaker.
But Kespa switched to SC2 way later. Progamers were paid a lot to perform in proleague. Taking legibility to Jangbi is plain wrong. Back then every pro was training hardcore like usual. The only but you could put to his dominance was the FlaSh injury.
The only time u could really argue with progamers not giving their best was was while the Hybrid proleague.
But Jangbi OSL are as legit as anyone common now..
|
protoss isnt as strong as everyone thinks. its strong up until you get to soulkeys level, or flashs level. then no matter who plays even former champions bisu stork rain, it wont win in the current metagame and maps. balance issue not player issue so i disagree with eonzerg.
|
On February 13 2025 20:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2025 12:02 G5 wrote:On February 13 2025 11:36 WombaT wrote:On February 13 2025 09:10 G5 wrote:On February 13 2025 06:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On February 13 2025 01:48 FlaShFTW wrote:
Jangbi was an excellent player no doubt, but I would weigh his 2 OSLs lower than others with 2 OSLs (Boxer, OOV, Garimto) This is crazy. The last OSL as far as i know the players that werent part of OSL yes they focused more on SC2. But even So Jangbi and Fantasy were getting quality practise for the FInals. Flash was helping Fantasy aswell. You just dont forget playing starcraft cuz you have been playing sc2 LOL.Look at Rain Soulkey Queen Snow Flash Jaedong. Any of the guys that comeback years after competing in sc2 they still phenomenal players. Is actually shocking you claiming that those 2 OSLs were meaningless tbh. Definitely not meaningless but less significant (or less difficult) would be more correct. I won WCG USA in 2010 when SC2 beta came out and that tournament, along with everything in SC1 was severely easier because people we playing SC2 so much. Literally the final was Nyoken and myself, the only two American players who didn't switch to SC2. It was like this at all levels at that time. I'll add that I throw less significant or less difficult around guys like Garimto as well because literally everyone was so terrible back then that the game is hardly recognizable. When Boxer and especially when Oov and NaDa started winning, players were pretty damn good and the scene was ultra competitive. That tracks as per foreigners switching to SC2 and that new pasture opening up. I’m not sure it necessarily applies to those last Starleagues in quite the same way. Or the last Proleague for that matter. It’s your last chance to make your mark in a game you’ve been a high level pro in for years, with no 100% guarantee you’ll make it in the new title. Be that taking a first Starleague, or solidifying an existing legacy. That seems a pretty big motivator. I think subsequently as well someone like Fantasy really stuck around in SC2 because he wanted to win and compete in tournaments, and that’s partly why he didn’t really return to BW wholesale. Jangbi also didn’t really stick around long in SC2 and also didn’t return to BW properly subsequently. I dunno, that’s my recollection for Fantasy and what he said. I may be entirely wrong! Just feels that the regular prestige + the last shot ever at it is too potent a combo for potential contenders not to bite If you were a pro and you made your living off gaming, it was stupid to still focus on SC1 instead of SC2. Immediately GSLs and other tournaments had higher prize pools than OSLs and I mean significantly higher. Also, sponsors and teams expected you to play SC2. Jangbi didn't even win his tournaments during the beta and early SC2 scene which started basically at the beginning of 2010. Effort and FlaSh were still snatching titles in 2010 when SC2 released. Jangbi won his titles in 2011 and 2012 when it was full fledged SC2 and the SC1 pro scene was decimated. Jangbi really never won anything during the true KeSPA era / peak SC1. He came close once or twice but never won until his competition was SEVERELY weaker. But Kespa switched to SC2 way later. Progamers were paid a lot to perform in proleague. Taking legibility to Jangbi is plain wrong. Back then every pro was training hardcore like usual. The only but you could put to his dominance was the FlaSh injury. The only time u could really argue with progamers not giving their best was was while the Hybrid proleague. But Jangbi OSL are as legit as anyone common now..
100% agreed with eon on this one. Every player cared about every Starleague and wanted to win it from it's inception to it's very end. Both for competitive and prestige reasons. What a silly thing to say that 2011 and 2012 individual leagues "count less" because SC2 was already out for some time and the competition was "SEVERELY weaker". Weird historical revisionism.
|
The only competition that was a bit weaker skill-wise was the hybrid SC2/BW league but just because players had to focus on both games at the same time. It was still really competitive and high level though, of course. And everyone wanted to win.
|
Northern Ireland23721 Posts
On February 13 2025 12:02 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2025 11:36 WombaT wrote:On February 13 2025 09:10 G5 wrote:On February 13 2025 06:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On February 13 2025 01:48 FlaShFTW wrote:
Jangbi was an excellent player no doubt, but I would weigh his 2 OSLs lower than others with 2 OSLs (Boxer, OOV, Garimto) This is crazy. The last OSL as far as i know the players that werent part of OSL yes they focused more on SC2. But even So Jangbi and Fantasy were getting quality practise for the FInals. Flash was helping Fantasy aswell. You just dont forget playing starcraft cuz you have been playing sc2 LOL.Look at Rain Soulkey Queen Snow Flash Jaedong. Any of the guys that comeback years after competing in sc2 they still phenomenal players. Is actually shocking you claiming that those 2 OSLs were meaningless tbh. Definitely not meaningless but less significant (or less difficult) would be more correct. I won WCG USA in 2010 when SC2 beta came out and that tournament, along with everything in SC1 was severely easier because people we playing SC2 so much. Literally the final was Nyoken and myself, the only two American players who didn't switch to SC2. It was like this at all levels at that time. I'll add that I throw less significant or less difficult around guys like Garimto as well because literally everyone was so terrible back then that the game is hardly recognizable. When Boxer and especially when Oov and NaDa started winning, players were pretty damn good and the scene was ultra competitive. That tracks as per foreigners switching to SC2 and that new pasture opening up. I’m not sure it necessarily applies to those last Starleagues in quite the same way. Or the last Proleague for that matter. It’s your last chance to make your mark in a game you’ve been a high level pro in for years, with no 100% guarantee you’ll make it in the new title. Be that taking a first Starleague, or solidifying an existing legacy. That seems a pretty big motivator. I think subsequently as well someone like Fantasy really stuck around in SC2 because he wanted to win and compete in tournaments, and that’s partly why he didn’t really return to BW wholesale. Jangbi also didn’t really stick around long in SC2 and also didn’t return to BW properly subsequently. I dunno, that’s my recollection for Fantasy and what he said. I may be entirely wrong! Just feels that the regular prestige + the last shot ever at it is too potent a combo for potential contenders not to bite If you were a pro and you made your living off gaming, it was stupid to still focus on SC1 instead of SC2. Immediately GSLs and other tournaments had higher prize pools than OSLs and I mean significantly higher. Also, sponsors and teams expected you to play SC2. Jangbi didn't even win his tournaments during the beta and early SC2 scene which started basically at the beginning of 2010. Effort and FlaSh were still snatching titles in 2010 when SC2 released. Jangbi won his titles in 2011 and 2012 when it was full fledged SC2 and the SC1 pro scene was decimated. Jangbi really never won anything during the true KeSPA era / peak SC1. He came close once or twice but never won until his competition was SEVERELY weaker.
Given how much quite a lot of Kespa players sucked when the switch actually happened, combined with how good a lot of them got, and how quickly, my best guess is a lot of them really weren’t practicing SC2 hardcore over BW at the tail end of it.
If, alternatively they hit the ground running then that would indicate they had put in that grind. If they started slowly, and took a while to get to the level, that would indicate that it was a hard slog for them, and could have been going on longer pre-switch.
As it was, they went from not that good (collectively, a few exceptions) to pretty bloody good, pretty damn quickly.
Not saying they weren’t practicing or dipping their toes in at all, but they rapidly improved, so I’d say quite a lot of them only really got to grinding when they fully switched.
There’s no guarantee in eSports either when you’re switching titles. An SC2 player called Lilbow (in)famously tanked preparing for the last HoTS World Champ to start practicing Legacy early to try and get an early advantage. Except Legacy didn’t really suit his playstyle and he didn’t really reap any rewards. And that’s just an expansion to SC2, not a whole other game.
You somewhat see this writ large in who were the elite Kespa players in BW and SC2.
Be it sentiment, glory or self-interest in contract negotiations, picking up those last Starleagues or winning that last Proleague I think just outweighs a bit of SC2 practice.
But I’ll take evidence to the contrary, I’m an outsider looking in and throwing out my best guesses. I just watched a Jinjin translation of Flash talking about the tail end Starleagues and the scene and he was pretty complimentary of Jangbi and Fantasy and what they were doing. Said Bogus/Innovation was maybe the guy who’d the talent to win big if BW had continued a bit longer in that form.
One thing he didn’t really say was that the level had dropped, or players weren’t practicing hard. This doesn’t mean they weren’t incidentally, it would make Flash seem a sore loser/downplaying the achievements of others even if it were actually true, so perhaps he didn’t voice it for that reason.
If there are folks who have went on record and said such things, I just haven’t encountered them, not saying they don’t exist and I’d change my opinions accordingly.
|
Eon Why are you arguing with people like TMNT? it doesnt matter what u said or whats the true He literally never will change his mind. Unfortunately pobably stuck somewhere.,
|
On February 13 2025 20:47 CicadaSC wrote:
protoss isnt as strong as everyone thinks. its strong up until you get to soulkeys level, or flashs level. then no matter who plays even former champions bisu stork rain, it wont win in the current metagame and maps. balance issue not player issue so i disagree with eonzerg.
So, are you saying it is a player issue? Because flash won with protoss against rush at asl10.
|
On February 13 2025 22:19 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2025 20:47 CicadaSC wrote:
protoss isnt as strong as everyone thinks. its strong up until you get to soulkeys level, or flashs level. then no matter who plays even former champions bisu stork rain, it wont win in the current metagame and maps. balance issue not player issue so i disagree with eonzerg. So, are you saying it is a player issue? Because flash won with protoss against rush at asl10.
One victory is not indicator, though. We have no idea how well protoss Flash would have performed, but most likely worse than terran. Terran does not have violatile matchups like PvZ.
|
Northern Ireland23721 Posts
On February 13 2025 03:57 SiarX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 21:58 WombaT wrote:On February 12 2025 21:36 TMNT wrote:
That "many interviews" according to the foreigners is one jinjin video I think. And some people act like Protoss players were asked "if you no longer gets hydra busted anymore would you agree", and they would answer "no our race is too strong already that would be unfair to Zerg",
I dont know the specific questions they were asked back then but just look at the recent balance patch in SC2 you can see why the people of SC1 are afraid of any changes to the game. There’s a pretty big influence of time and a culture of not patching as well I’d imagine. Brood War takes on this sacred reverence and the mere idea of patching is sacrilege to some. For others perhaps it’s just a conservative resistance to change something they’ve been familiar with for forever. SC2’s been actively patched since release, I think generally for the better but it also creates a culture of whining and demanding patches all the time. True, this status of "untouchable holy cow" probably hurt BW as much as helped to avoid other balance issues.
I dunno how much it’s really hurt the game, it’s done alright!
It raises the barrier to new players, but I mean it is an old game also. You gotta learn the game itself and then a bunch of pretty different maps as well. As well as learning to wall in ways that aren’t always visually intuitive. Whether that’s good or bad, opinions will differ.
I do quite like the balancing by maps approach overall, but I think if you’re really having to create a lot of wonky map features, rather than just having different broad layouts, maybe you’re at stages patching (might) be preferable.
If there’s maybe one experimental patch I think would definitely be worth at least trying is doing what SC2 did and give spores bonus damage versus biological. See if it can push ZvZ out of almost exclusively ling/muta mono battles. And if it doesn’t work or ZvZ gets worse, revert it. But it can’t do much harm to try a change that can only affect one matchup, and probably the worst matchup in the game.
On February 13 2025 05:53 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2025 03:57 WombaT wrote:On February 13 2025 03:26 ThunderJunk wrote:
2 common-sense solutions.
1) Get rid of the fully transparent gaming booths so Zergs can't read the crowd and invalidate the fog of war against P.
2) Add island elements to give P an edge. Have they always been 2-way transparent? I know most I’ve watched you can see in, but can you see out? Or have you always been able to? If it was such an issue I really think we mighta heard someone raise it, even jokingly. Some video Jinjin translated about some old timers reminiscing about ‘oh one time the crowd saved my ass’, or bemoaning a suspicion that an opponent did it shoulda crossed my path. Perhaps there’s a scene-wide omertà, or I’ve just missed it? Even then it also adds another layer of gambling into the mix, which is are you correctly reading whatever the crowd is cheering for? I assume the pros having timings and possibilities mapped out may have a good idea sure. Hahaha ever heard of Leta? Go watch jinjin5000 video. It is literally live.
I’ve heard of Leta yes, I’m not sure what I’m meant to look for. A link or a few sentences of explanation alternatively doesn’t hurt.
|
Me I can tell you why ZvP is my best mu... It is because Protoss players are the easiest less difficult to predict. Let that sink in.
|
On February 13 2025 20:09 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
I must be unlucky i watched Snow smashing 3 games in a row forcing him to take breaks all the time. When i say i watch games i actually mean i watch a lot of games. LIKE A LOT OF GAMES. I actually watch Countless of historic games.
Thats why i dont trust stats 100% . Cuz at the end of the day they dont tell the entire story.
All those dumb games that Snow lose in ASL to Soulkey where he didnt care to close his wall and SK just rungby his lings and killed canons were loses he could have avoud easily. In fact he does that all the time online. Online he scout the right thing most of the time 85% i watch his games. To the point that sometimes i think he is streamcheating.
Who is missing tho that you are saying Protoss is dominating for that reason ?
And why is it so hard for you to admit that such player is just way better than your protoss player ?
So when Snow or Mini gets eliminated in the round of 24 u never said stuff like Oh but Protoss is so hard oh 1 mistake and they get eliminated in a bo1. Ohh ohh. Well. Protoss actually dominate in proleagues that is a bo1..
is not just 1 game. Is countless games like that. But Protoss fans only focus on bad performances to claim imbalance.
So you are Saying that the Greatest players in starcraft history deservers a 33% in Finals to be balanced.
If FlaSh actually made 20 finals vs Snow do you actually think that for it to be balanced it has to be 10-10. Like wut ?
Im just saying is player performance and is pretty obvious when we are seeing the same individual winning everything.
That logic is pretty interesting to me.
KCM is an interesting thing.
is An all kill format that rotates zvp zvt tvz tvp depending who you playing. There is also revives that can be done and players can revive the best player of their team. It also happens that KCM dont follow strickly the maps trends. They are usually late to switch maps with the ASL cycles.
Sometimes they dont even use the top of their races but lesser players.
Starcraft has been unpatched for 20+ years. And in every era Every race has shown dominance. Others longer than others.
Look at Royal and JYJ. They both won an ASL.You look at them now and they are most mediocre players you will ever see. And no one even remember games from their ASL runs. But they contributed to the stats. What Snow your mini shit on them for breakfast. Is not even funny. But yet they contributed to the stats. But i mean i guess cuz of imbalanced those f*ckers won the ASL. But the imbalanced is gone now ?..
This is the problem when you dont track stats or events. You miss a lot. Royal won two PSL seasons vs Sharp and SnOW in finals. Beat soulkey, snow and best in Chinese ultimate battle. Beat snow and mini and soulkey in regular ultimate battle. got top 4 in two starcast starleague seasons vs the same people that were in ASL and SSL. RoyaL is however inconsistent. He has low lows and high highs. But he is NOT mediocre. JyJ is still a strong terran but he stopped grinding to be the best terran after his ASL win. If u tracked proleagues and spons around the time he won, and his ELOboard rating, you would have seen he was a top 6 performer for months back then. He actually had the strongest TvT going into the finals from what I have heard from his practice partners for ASL finals and from other pro terrans.
|
On February 14 2025 00:06 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2025 20:09 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
I must be unlucky i watched Snow smashing 3 games in a row forcing him to take breaks all the time. When i say i watch games i actually mean i watch a lot of games. LIKE A LOT OF GAMES. I actually watch Countless of historic games.
Thats why i dont trust stats 100% . Cuz at the end of the day they dont tell the entire story.
All those dumb games that Snow lose in ASL to Soulkey where he didnt care to close his wall and SK just rungby his lings and killed canons were loses he could have avoud easily. In fact he does that all the time online. Online he scout the right thing most of the time 85% i watch his games. To the point that sometimes i think he is streamcheating.
Who is missing tho that you are saying Protoss is dominating for that reason ?
And why is it so hard for you to admit that such player is just way better than your protoss player ?
So when Snow or Mini gets eliminated in the round of 24 u never said stuff like Oh but Protoss is so hard oh 1 mistake and they get eliminated in a bo1. Ohh ohh. Well. Protoss actually dominate in proleagues that is a bo1..
is not just 1 game. Is countless games like that. But Protoss fans only focus on bad performances to claim imbalance.
So you are Saying that the Greatest players in starcraft history deservers a 33% in Finals to be balanced.
If FlaSh actually made 20 finals vs Snow do you actually think that for it to be balanced it has to be 10-10. Like wut ?
Im just saying is player performance and is pretty obvious when we are seeing the same individual winning everything.
That logic is pretty interesting to me.
KCM is an interesting thing.
is An all kill format that rotates zvp zvt tvz tvp depending who you playing. There is also revives that can be done and players can revive the best player of their team. It also happens that KCM dont follow strickly the maps trends. They are usually late to switch maps with the ASL cycles.
Sometimes they dont even use the top of their races but lesser players.
Starcraft has been unpatched for 20+ years. And in every era Every race has shown dominance. Others longer than others.
Look at Royal and JYJ. They both won an ASL.You look at them now and they are most mediocre players you will ever see. And no one even remember games from their ASL runs. But they contributed to the stats. What Snow your mini shit on them for breakfast. Is not even funny. But yet they contributed to the stats. But i mean i guess cuz of imbalanced those f*ckers won the ASL. But the imbalanced is gone now ?..
This is the problem when you dont track stats or events. You miss a lot. Royal won two PSL seasons vs Sharp and SnOW in finals. Beat soulkey, snow and best in Chinese ultimate battle. Beat snow and mini and soulkey in regular ultimate battle. got top 4 in two starcast starleague seasons vs the same people that were in ASL and SSL. RoyaL is however inconsistent. He has low lows and high highs. But he is NOT mediocre. JyJ is still a strong terran but he stopped grinding to be the best terran after his ASL win. If u tracked proleagues and spons around the time he won, and his ELOboard rating, you would have seen he was a top 6 performer for months back then. He actually had the strongest TvT going into the finals from what I have heard from his practice partners for ASL finals and from other pro terrans.
Actually i dont know what PSL is w.e but the best are not playing in that shit.
You are right i follow proleague and ASL. i do however know RoyaL beat Soulkey in those 7 games they did right after SK won his third ASL. Good for him i guess ?
It doesnt change the fact that he is been mediocre in proleague for a long time. And JYJ AND Royal are getting their scores playing in K leagues and those lesser leagues like all the pros that are actually not part of the proleague circuit.
And there is nothing wrong with that
JYJ right after he won his ASL. not even a week later. I saw him in the major proleague just underperforming and playing really subpar.And each time i watch a proleague is pretty rare he is part of one. In fact if he is part of one is cuz the big dawgs are missing.
So yes they are top players. And when i say they are mediocre doesnt mean they sux. I just mean they are not even close to be an ASL contender. And Royal fell off has been so hard that he is very often out of major proleague.
Mess up the prolegue terms..
Major proleague is the top skill right ?
then K league ?
then moon league ?
|
United States10021 Posts
On February 13 2025 05:41 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2025 04:11 TMNT wrote:Re this point from Eon: PROTOSS IS DOMINATING IN PROLEAGUES. Did you base this on my periodic sum-ups, or on your impression watching some Proleagues? Because for as much as Snow is "dominating" Proleague in the past few years or so, his lifetime winrates in PL against Queen, Soulkey and Soma are still 49, 48 and 39%. It's worse for Mini. So obviously they are dominating everyone who are supposedly not on the same tier with them, which is true for any player lol. Basically you have 3 guys who are the top of their race dominating Proleague in recent time: Snow, Light, Soulkey (Mini is not btw, he just sometimes had an all kill streak). And among them 3 you have something like Snow = Light and Snow < Soulkey. But then you realize that the actual top Terran is Flash, and Soma was also as good as Soulkey. So you can't say Protoss is dominating Proleague. Shuttle just smashed Queen yesterday with what you would call a safe style. I just dont buy this narratives of this race can do this or that cuz of this or cuz of that. Cuz i just watch too much starcraft and i know very well what is possible and what is not. I know how powerful can a race be if it is played right.
Did we just watch the same game? Shuttle was trying to put on zealot pressure the entire time for the first 8 minutes of the game and it basically did no damage, didn't get any drones. Queen was massively ahead and threw hard in the all-in fight that Shuttle did. It's not a reliable way to expect to win the matchup, so "smash" is a bit of a stretch.
|
On February 14 2025 02:32 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2025 00:06 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On February 13 2025 20:09 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
I must be unlucky i watched Snow smashing 3 games in a row forcing him to take breaks all the time. When i say i watch games i actually mean i watch a lot of games. LIKE A LOT OF GAMES. I actually watch Countless of historic games.
Thats why i dont trust stats 100% . Cuz at the end of the day they dont tell the entire story.
All those dumb games that Snow lose in ASL to Soulkey where he didnt care to close his wall and SK just rungby his lings and killed canons were loses he could have avoud easily. In fact he does that all the time online. Online he scout the right thing most of the time 85% i watch his games. To the point that sometimes i think he is streamcheating.
Who is missing tho that you are saying Protoss is dominating for that reason ?
And why is it so hard for you to admit that such player is just way better than your protoss player ?
So when Snow or Mini gets eliminated in the round of 24 u never said stuff like Oh but Protoss is so hard oh 1 mistake and they get eliminated in a bo1. Ohh ohh. Well. Protoss actually dominate in proleagues that is a bo1..
is not just 1 game. Is countless games like that. But Protoss fans only focus on bad performances to claim imbalance.
So you are Saying that the Greatest players in starcraft history deservers a 33% in Finals to be balanced.
If FlaSh actually made 20 finals vs Snow do you actually think that for it to be balanced it has to be 10-10. Like wut ?
Im just saying is player performance and is pretty obvious when we are seeing the same individual winning everything.
That logic is pretty interesting to me.
KCM is an interesting thing.
is An all kill format that rotates zvp zvt tvz tvp depending who you playing. There is also revives that can be done and players can revive the best player of their team. It also happens that KCM dont follow strickly the maps trends. They are usually late to switch maps with the ASL cycles.
Sometimes they dont even use the top of their races but lesser players.
Starcraft has been unpatched for 20+ years. And in every era Every race has shown dominance. Others longer than others.
Look at Royal and JYJ. They both won an ASL.You look at them now and they are most mediocre players you will ever see. And no one even remember games from their ASL runs. But they contributed to the stats. What Snow your mini shit on them for breakfast. Is not even funny. But yet they contributed to the stats. But i mean i guess cuz of imbalanced those f*ckers won the ASL. But the imbalanced is gone now ?..
This is the problem when you dont track stats or events. You miss a lot. Royal won two PSL seasons vs Sharp and SnOW in finals. Beat soulkey, snow and best in Chinese ultimate battle. Beat snow and mini and soulkey in regular ultimate battle. got top 4 in two starcast starleague seasons vs the same people that were in ASL and SSL. RoyaL is however inconsistent. He has low lows and high highs. But he is NOT mediocre. JyJ is still a strong terran but he stopped grinding to be the best terran after his ASL win. If u tracked proleagues and spons around the time he won, and his ELOboard rating, you would have seen he was a top 6 performer for months back then. He actually had the strongest TvT going into the finals from what I have heard from his practice partners for ASL finals and from other pro terrans. Actually i dont know what PSL is w.e but the best are not playing in that shit. You are right i follow proleague and ASL. i do however know RoyaL beat Soulkey in those 7 games they did right after SK won his third ASL. Good for him i guess ? It doesnt change the fact that he is been mediocre in proleague for a long time. And JYJ AND Royal are getting their scores playing in K leagues and those lesser leagues like all the pros that are actually not part of the proleague circuit. And there is nothing wrong with that JYJ right after he won his ASL. not even a week later. I saw him in the major proleague just underperforming and playing really subpar.And each time i watch a proleague is pretty rare he is part of one. In fact if he is part of one is cuz the big dawgs are missing. So yes they are top players. And when i say they are mediocre doesnt mean they sux. I just mean they are not even close to be an ASL contender. And Royal fell off has been so hard that he is very often out of major proleague. Mess up the prolegue terms.. Major proleague is the top skill right ? then K league ? then moon league ?
Royal is always in major proleague. Has been for 4 years now. JyJ almost exclusively Major too. Royal and JyJ sometimes in KPL when the other MPL cant organize due to other obligations. PSL had a few of the top in them. Since SSL we have seen over 80 chinese sponsored bo7-9. You would have to track daily reported matches on eloboard to know this so I understand you dont. Royal has played in over 15 of these. Ultimate battle hasnt been updated on liquipedia since december 2023.
|
On February 14 2025 04:26 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2025 05:41 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Shuttle just smashed Queen yesterday with what you would call a safe style. I just dont buy this narratives of this race can do this or that cuz of this or cuz of that. Cuz i just watch too much starcraft and i know very well what is possible and what is not. I know how powerful can a race be if it is played right.
Did we just watch the same game? Shuttle was trying to put on zealot pressure the entire time for the first 8 minutes of the game and it basically did no damage, didn't get any drones. Queen was massively ahead and threw hard in the all-in fight that Shuttle did. It's not a reliable way to expect to win the matchup, so "smash" is a bit of a stretch.
Shuttle did smash Queen in that fight and I think that's what impressed Eon the most that he described the game as such. From a Zerg biased point of view you can probably see that game as "look, Protoss throws away all his zealots in the early game for almost nothing, but then he just sits there, macros up, comes out and smashes my army, and storm is so imba"
But the truth is Queen got cocky with his massive lead. Took his 4th a bit too soon and delayed his upgrade. But he was still on equal supply with Shuttle lol. His army positioning on the map and execution during the fight were horrible that's why he lost. The fact that Shuttle's teammates were all moaning in despair right before that fight should tell you he wasn't expected to win it or win the game.
|
The golden moment that game was when Jaedong immediately went to SoulKey's stream after the win to see his reaction tho.
But yea it was some throw
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
