|
United States10332 Posts
On February 12 2025 19:21 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 16:02 G5 wrote:On February 12 2025 09:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On February 11 2025 23:58 G5 wrote:On February 10 2025 21:06 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On February 10 2025 16:22 G5 wrote:
Damn, this thread is still going on?
I gave my thoughts on it but I am curious (and I'm sorry but I am not reading 14 pages to try and find this answer), has there been any general consensus on why P always underperforms at the highest level? yeah. the answer is that it doesnt. Well that's just wrong. Protoss clearly does the worst at the pro level. Underperforms where ? In proleagues they doing hot. For a long time BTW. In ASL ? god knows why. Nerves ? Not adapted to the ASL setups ? Not enough offline competitions to really show their best ? I know for a fact Snow for almost his entire career is not the same player when he plays offline. 25+ years of competitive SC says Protoss is the weakest. Throughout generations of different maps, metas, and players, Protoss has generally always been the least successful at the pro level. The game is balanced enough that ANY race CAN win. However, I think it's undeniable, unless you have a severe personal bias, that Protoss is the least successful race at the pro level throughout the history of SC:BW and by a significant margin. You can cherry pick anything but 25+ years of professional StarCraft is hard to deny. Jangbi actually could have been an actual golden mouse winner if OSL just kept going. But We will never know.
No one would count Jangbi's golden mouse for anything, he won b2b golden mouses in a time where all the other top pros had to dedicate time to practicing SC2 while Jangbi said fuck that, I'm just going to play brood war only and catch back up later in SC2 (he only made it to Code A once and otherwise was a proleague only player.
|
its in the name. pro toss. they are great at throwing.
You are underselling jangbi to an unreasonable degree.
|
United States10332 Posts
Jangbi was an excellent player no doubt, but I would weigh his 2 OSLs lower than others with 2 OSLs (Boxer, OOV, Garimto)
|
On February 12 2025 19:21 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 16:02 G5 wrote:On February 12 2025 09:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On February 11 2025 23:58 G5 wrote:On February 10 2025 21:06 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On February 10 2025 16:22 G5 wrote:
Damn, this thread is still going on?
I gave my thoughts on it but I am curious (and I'm sorry but I am not reading 14 pages to try and find this answer), has there been any general consensus on why P always underperforms at the highest level? yeah. the answer is that it doesnt. Well that's just wrong. Protoss clearly does the worst at the pro level. Underperforms where ? In proleagues they doing hot. For a long time BTW. In ASL ? god knows why. Nerves ? Not adapted to the ASL setups ? Not enough offline competitions to really show their best ? I know for a fact Snow for almost his entire career is not the same player when he plays offline. 25+ years of competitive SC says Protoss is the weakest. Throughout generations of different maps, metas, and players, Protoss has generally always been the least successful at the pro level. The game is balanced enough that ANY race CAN win. However, I think it's undeniable, unless you have a severe personal bias, that Protoss is the least successful race at the pro level throughout the history of SC:BW and by a significant margin. You can cherry pick anything but 25+ years of professional StarCraft is hard to deny. The way i see it this game has always worked with meta advancement. My issue with this is that We had Boxer iloveoov Nada FlaSh Savior Jaedong Julyzerg that took the glory from others. How can i even debate this 25 years dominance when is always the same individuals winning everything ? Jangbi actually could have been an actual golden mouse winner if OSL just kept going. But We will never know. Bisu could have been an OSL winner if he didnt die to Shine and failed to qualify for OSL. SHine from everyone that plays the same build vs Stork or a different Protoss and will get demolished. But vs Bisu actually worked. And we back to the same topic. PROTOSS IS DOMINATING IN PROLEAGUES. So ok eon Protoss is actually not good in box series . Ok MINI AND SNOW IN THEIR BEST MOMEMT ALSO GOT ELIMINATED FROM A ROUND OF 24 bo1. Btw i totally agree that round of 24 bo1 is actually terrible. It really sucks to see your favorite players eliminated with so few games. Watch Soulkey vs Mini ASL final. Watch their last game and the biggest underpeformance you could see from any protoss. And the maps never been this good for pvz. Im not sure about pvt tho. It seems that Terran with this easy 4 bases Setup is actually an issue but very few people are talking about that. The PTSD from hydra bust is so high on you guys that you barely focus on the real issue.
Please don't act like I'm some hydra bust PTSD noob who doesn't understand the game beyond a B player level. Go read my thoughts on page 2 or wherever it is if you care at all.
BTW it's odd you say watch Mini vs SoulKey final cuss if you watch Mini's games in general throughout ASL, he is taking MAAAASSIVE gambles almost every game, especially against Zerg, and he's the most successful Starleague Protoss in this era. That should tell you something about the struggles of Protoss at the pro level. You call it a choke but Mini took gambles in that final and got in GREAT spots basically every game and SoulKey showed the power of lurker ling defiler and took the series anyways.
As I said, you can cherry pick anything, but Protoss has severely underperformed throughout the history of SC:BW at the pro level. I dont think thats deniable.
|
2 common-sense solutions.
1) Get rid of the fully transparent gaming booths so Zergs can't read the crowd and invalidate the fog of war against P.
2) Add island elements to give P an edge.
|
Don't need islands, could just do smth like 11 mineral patch mains and/or more 2 player maps in the pool.
Ideally a no high ground 3rd with a passage that can be walled with a reasonable number of pylons, but isn't so tiny that pressuring it with zealots is impossible.
|
The point on Mini gambling is spot on.
He did some mad 12 Nexus no scout build against Queen in that series when he 4-1'd him.
Then won his ASL by making 12 Nexus in all the 4 games that he won.
Basically you have Shuttle winning an ASL that no one took seriously, Rain winning a PvP championship (thanks mapmakers), and Mini winning by gambling. That's the life of Protoss in ASL era.
|
On February 12 2025 18:54 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 13:24 NoobSkills wrote:On February 12 2025 09:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On February 11 2025 03:27 Soulforged wrote:On February 11 2025 01:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Hell i have seen Protoss doing it on 38 workers. IMO 40 probe pressure plays are kind of an equivalent of staying on 35 drones making hydra for a long time. Can kill greed, will fall behind vs solid defensive play, if didn't overstay on it can still transition out, etc. But well, you know all of it better than me  https://vod.sooplive.co.kr/player/151034577?change_second=28029This is a perfect example of what im talking about. 35 drones doesnt really compare to 40 protoss workers. Specially when zerg has to mine from 3 expos to make it efficient while protoss can be super efficient on 1 base. I feel like Protoss players obsess too much with a 50 workers eco early on. And in most of cases is counter productive. When i say Protoss players i mean low skill like you. Progamers actually know how to balance that stuff. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this BS? Zerg workers are similar enough in efficiency to all other races. They mine from an extra base because crowding lowers efficiency universally and they need the extra hatchery anyway. So 35 drones in fact clears a 40 probe 1 base. As for protoss players and lack of one on top. I don't know sure I'll accept the race could be weaker, the maps could be worse. But when we have periods where wall busts are super popular in PvZ, and for a minute or two the protoss gets off zero scouting, and adds no cannons, not even 1. Or where they slam into corsairs just to lose them despite the massive investment they are while knowing the hard counter has been massed, when they could wait out for a better opportunity to go for the overlord insta-win kill move. Maybe their spell is too micro intesnive, but if you have 12 should you not have it? Also why do you need so many early at times? You can literally 2 starport later, while getting more universal tech online sooner. Why in late game are there no reavers anymore they are constant value. I'm sure there is plenty more. And maybe you can claim I am dead wrong in some of them, but all? I feel like when there is a recipe they just all follow it and haven't broken through. Like they don't stop and say oh shit, my 2 base zealot storm push has zero chance of working, let me instead use them to secure a 3rd and quick 4th and play defensive with heavy storm and do a later push. They just live on the razors edge and full send. Obviously this isn't always the meta has come and gone. It is almost like protoss pro players hive mind it which means that zergs can practice against one they've practiced against all IMO. It is true that successful protoss players have their own playstyles which are studied on and practiced counters against, however that does not have a net effect on their win streak. Stork is still a WCG winner that is currently playing. The fact that other players win now is because we are cutting the Starcraft timeline and starting at a later date. Back then, no one could rise against terrans until Stork put a stop to that. It is because they have a certain playstyle developed no one can counter that they still win. When they lose, it is because they cannot successfully replicate in their training partners the random playstyles their opponents have. Protoss has a more fleshed out gameplay that can be stereotypical, but it always comes down to lack of scouting that they lose, imo. They cannot zone in like say Jaedong, they have to keep up tabs with their opponents. That can strain protoss. Observers are really easy to snipe.
Exactly. Lack of scouting between zealot and first corsair is a big race issue, which hurts protoss perfomance overall. In PvT at least there is more opportunity to scout.
|
On February 12 2025 21:58 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2025 21:36 TMNT wrote:
That "many interviews" according to the foreigners is one jinjin video I think. And some people act like Protoss players were asked "if you no longer gets hydra busted anymore would you agree", and they would answer "no our race is too strong already that would be unfair to Zerg",
I dont know the specific questions they were asked back then but just look at the recent balance patch in SC2 you can see why the people of SC1 are afraid of any changes to the game. There’s a pretty big influence of time and a culture of not patching as well I’d imagine. Brood War takes on this sacred reverence and the mere idea of patching is sacrilege to some. For others perhaps it’s just a conservative resistance to change something they’ve been familiar with for forever. SC2’s been actively patched since release, I think generally for the better but it also creates a culture of whining and demanding patches all the time.
True, this status of "untouchable holy cow" probably hurt BW as much as helped to avoid other balance issues.
|
Northern Ireland26339 Posts
On February 13 2025 03:26 ThunderJunk wrote:
2 common-sense solutions.
1) Get rid of the fully transparent gaming booths so Zergs can't read the crowd and invalidate the fog of war against P.
2) Add island elements to give P an edge.
Have they always been 2-way transparent? I know most I’ve watched you can see in, but can you see out? Or have you always been able to?
If it was such an issue I really think we mighta heard someone raise it, even jokingly. Some video Jinjin translated about some old timers reminiscing about ‘oh one time the crowd saved my ass’, or bemoaning a suspicion that an opponent did it shoulda crossed my path.
Perhaps there’s a scene-wide omertà, or I’ve just missed it?
Even then it also adds another layer of gambling into the mix, which is are you correctly reading whatever the crowd is cheering for? I assume the pros having timings and possibilities mapped out may have a good idea sure.
|
Re this point from Eon:
PROTOSS IS DOMINATING IN PROLEAGUES.
Did you base this on my periodic sum-ups, or on your impression watching some Proleagues?
Because for as much as Snow is "dominating" Proleague in the past few years or so, his lifetime winrates in PL against Queen, Soulkey and Soma are still 49, 48 and 39%. It's worse for Mini. So obviously they are dominating everyone who are supposedly not on the same tier with them, which is true for any player lol.
Basically you have 3 guys who are the top of their race dominating Proleague in recent time: Snow, Light, Soulkey (Mini is not btw, he just sometimes had an all kill streak). And among them 3 you have something like Snow = Light and Snow < Soulkey. But then you realize that the actual top Terran is Flash, and Soma was also as good as Soulkey. So you can't say Protoss is dominating Proleague.
|
By the way, I don't know why when people say things like
"Protoss players choke the most" or "Protoss players dont play well in offline environment" or "Protoss players lose cheaply in Ro24"
and those things are always automatically attributed to the players but not the race. I mean, it could be the players as well but it also could be the race design that makes them choke the most. But I don't know why the second hypothesis by default doesn't exist.
If you design 3 types of car, one of them more prone to errors than the others, you could get to the same observation. But it's much more clear because you can switch the drivers to test the hypothesis, while in RTS games you can't.
But looking at the gameplay you can see why Protoss are most prone to errors: they are the race that playing safe rewards the least.
|
On February 13 2025 04:11 TMNT wrote:Re this point from Eon: Did you base this on my periodic sum-ups, or on your impression watching some Proleagues? Because for as much as Snow is "dominating" Proleague in the past few years or so, his lifetime winrates in PL against Queen, Soulkey and Soma are still 49, 48 and 39%. It's worse for Mini. So obviously they are dominating everyone who are supposedly not on the same tier with them, which is true for any player lol. Basically you have 3 guys who are the top of their race dominating Proleague in recent time: Snow, Light, Soulkey (Mini is not btw, he just sometimes had an all kill streak). And among them 3 you have something like Snow = Light and Snow < Soulkey. But then you realize that the actual top Terran is Flash, and Soma was also as good as Soulkey. So you can't say Protoss is dominating Proleague.
I watch starcraft. I dont follow stats from people . Soulkey since he won his last ASL he is being smashed by Snow multiple times. Im pretty sure vs Mini too but he also beat mini back. We keep mentioniong Soma when is being away for so long and we realistically dont know what form or shape he is and how long it will take for him to be the zerg before SOulkey Not a goat but fit the description status. He could very well comeback and get destroyed by Snow bisu and Mini.
But this is already an area of we dont really know what is gonna look like.
Shuttle just smashed Queen yesterday with what you would call a safe style. I just dont buy this narratives of this race can do this or that cuz of this or cuz of that. Cuz i just watch too much starcraft and i know very well what is possible and what is not. I know how powerful can a race be if it is played right.
Soma algo got eliminated in a round of 24. Jaedong even Effort at some point and Queen. I dont come here screaming Terran is imbalanced. I could very well if i was naive and will not understand what actually lead to their defeat. And what strengs or whatever is missing or not using to their full potential.
I get that Protoss didnt really win that many ASLs. But still made a good amount of Finals. When you reach a final stage of a tourney after playing so many rounds is wrong to call imbalance. You are just not performing at your level that lead to that point or your level is just not good enough to defeat your opponent. It is what it is.
|
On February 13 2025 03:57 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2025 03:26 ThunderJunk wrote:
2 common-sense solutions.
1) Get rid of the fully transparent gaming booths so Zergs can't read the crowd and invalidate the fog of war against P.
2) Add island elements to give P an edge. Have they always been 2-way transparent? I know most I’ve watched you can see in, but can you see out? Or have you always been able to? If it was such an issue I really think we mighta heard someone raise it, even jokingly. Some video Jinjin translated about some old timers reminiscing about ‘oh one time the crowd saved my ass’, or bemoaning a suspicion that an opponent did it shoulda crossed my path. Perhaps there’s a scene-wide omertà, or I’ve just missed it? Even then it also adds another layer of gambling into the mix, which is are you correctly reading whatever the crowd is cheering for? I assume the pros having timings and possibilities mapped out may have a good idea sure.
Hahaha ever heard of Leta? Go watch jinjin5000 video. It is literally live.
|
On February 13 2025 04:29 TMNT wrote:
By the way, I don't know why when people say things like
"Protoss players choke the most" or "Protoss players dont play well in offline environment" or "Protoss players lose cheaply in Ro24"
and those things are always automatically attributed to the players but not the race. I mean, it could be the players as well but it also could be the race design that makes them choke the most. But I don't know why the second hypothesis by default doesn't exist.
If you design 3 types of car, one of them more prone to errors than the others, you could get to the same observation. But it's much more clear because you can switch the drivers to test the hypothesis, while in RTS games you can't.
But looking at the gameplay you can see why Protoss are most prone to errors: they are the race that playing safe rewards the least.
I tried explaining protoss is the glass cannon army and you ridiculed me for it.
Protoss: explosive damage and large units in the early game.
Terran: normal damage and small units in the early game.
Zerg: explosive damage in the early game and small units until midgame.
It is pretty obvious protoss is a glass cannon, terran is balanced and zerg is the imbalanced army if you look at their permutations with each other.
PS: explosive deals 1/2 damage to small units. Couple that with twice more expensive units and see what I mean.
|
On February 13 2025 01:48 FlaShFTW wrote:
Jangbi was an excellent player no doubt, but I would weigh his 2 OSLs lower than others with 2 OSLs (Boxer, OOV, Garimto)
This is crazy.
The last OSL as far as i know the players that werent part of OSL yes they focused more on SC2. But even So Jangbi and Fantasy were getting quality practise for the FInals. Flash was helping Fantasy aswell. You just dont forget playing starcraft cuz you have been playing sc2 LOL.Look at Rain Soulkey Queen Snow Flash Jaedong. Any of the guys that comeback years after competing in sc2 they still phenomenal players.
Is actually shocking you claiming that those 2 OSLs were meaningless tbh.
|
On February 13 2025 06:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2025 01:48 FlaShFTW wrote:
Jangbi was an excellent player no doubt, but I would weigh his 2 OSLs lower than others with 2 OSLs (Boxer, OOV, Garimto) This is crazy. The last OSL as far as i know the players that werent part of OSL yes they focused more on SC2. But even So Jangbi and Fantasy were getting quality practise for the FInals. Flash was helping Fantasy aswell. You just dont forget playing starcraft cuz you have been playing sc2 LOL.Look at Rain Soulkey Queen Snow Flash Jaedong. Any of the guys that comeback years after competing in sc2 they still phenomenal players. Is actually shocking you claiming that those 2 OSLs were meaningless tbh.
Definitely not meaningless but less significant (or less difficult) would be more correct. I won WCG USA in 2010 when SC2 beta came out and that tournament, along with everything in SC1 was severely easier because people we playing SC2 so much. Literally the final was Nyoken and myself, the only two American players who didn't switch to SC2. It was like this at all levels at that time.
I'll add that I throw less significant or less difficult around guys like Garimto as well because literally everyone was so terrible back then that the game is hardly recognizable. When Boxer and especially when Oov and NaDa started winning, players were pretty damn good and the scene was ultra competitive.
|
Most of the problem involves comparing a uniform distribution with a normal distribution. Protoss performs best in a best of 1 where Protoss is the best (not excluding PvP). There are obvious reasons that Protoss can't be the best in a strategy game involving humans and aliens. The first and most obvious is that if Protoss was really calibrated to some millions-of-years advanced civilizations spanning several galaxies if not universes then realistically-speaking humans would be obsolete. Can you imagine a real Science Vessel capable of EMP'ing a real Arbiter? Of course you can't because it can't exist unless the Protoss builds the Science Vessel itself.
And then, there are a variety of other obvious points. Dragoons and Interceptors are so far advanced against humans that our definition of cybernetics wouldn't begin to approach the capacity of multiversal civilization like the Protoss. Most Protoss capital ships would be the size of our planet if not our entire solar system. It's a level like Saitama and Genos is OPM. Just because Genos never wins doesn't mean he's not an adequate fighter. Genos is as powerful as many of the heroes if not the villains. That's why he's ranked as a class-S hero from the beginning and scores perfectly on academic exercises.
It's just not realistic to suppose adrenaline junky humans can really compare to the intelligence and reaction time of a unit like a Dragoon, Reaver, or Interceptor. Even Observers would be significantly more powerful than the entire Terran arsenal.
|
Northern Ireland26339 Posts
On February 13 2025 09:10 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2025 06:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On February 13 2025 01:48 FlaShFTW wrote:
Jangbi was an excellent player no doubt, but I would weigh his 2 OSLs lower than others with 2 OSLs (Boxer, OOV, Garimto) This is crazy. The last OSL as far as i know the players that werent part of OSL yes they focused more on SC2. But even So Jangbi and Fantasy were getting quality practise for the FInals. Flash was helping Fantasy aswell. You just dont forget playing starcraft cuz you have been playing sc2 LOL.Look at Rain Soulkey Queen Snow Flash Jaedong. Any of the guys that comeback years after competing in sc2 they still phenomenal players. Is actually shocking you claiming that those 2 OSLs were meaningless tbh. Definitely not meaningless but less significant (or less difficult) would be more correct. I won WCG USA in 2010 when SC2 beta came out and that tournament, along with everything in SC1 was severely easier because people we playing SC2 so much. Literally the final was Nyoken and myself, the only two American players who didn't switch to SC2. It was like this at all levels at that time. I'll add that I throw less significant or less difficult around guys like Garimto as well because literally everyone was so terrible back then that the game is hardly recognizable. When Boxer and especially when Oov and NaDa started winning, players were pretty damn good and the scene was ultra competitive.
That tracks as per foreigners switching to SC2 and that new pasture opening up.
I’m not sure it necessarily applies to those last Starleagues in quite the same way. Or the last Proleague for that matter.
It’s your last chance to make your mark in a game you’ve been a high level pro in for years, with no 100% guarantee you’ll make it in the new title. Be that taking a first Starleague, or solidifying an existing legacy.
That seems a pretty big motivator.
I think subsequently as well someone like Fantasy really stuck around in SC2 because he wanted to win and compete in tournaments, and that’s partly why he didn’t really return to BW wholesale. Jangbi also didn’t really stick around long in SC2 and also didn’t return to BW properly subsequently.
I dunno, that’s my recollection for Fantasy and what he said.
I may be entirely wrong! Just feels that the regular prestige + the last shot ever at it is too potent a combo for potential contenders not to bite
|
On February 13 2025 11:36 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2025 09:10 G5 wrote:On February 13 2025 06:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On February 13 2025 01:48 FlaShFTW wrote:
Jangbi was an excellent player no doubt, but I would weigh his 2 OSLs lower than others with 2 OSLs (Boxer, OOV, Garimto) This is crazy. The last OSL as far as i know the players that werent part of OSL yes they focused more on SC2. But even So Jangbi and Fantasy were getting quality practise for the FInals. Flash was helping Fantasy aswell. You just dont forget playing starcraft cuz you have been playing sc2 LOL.Look at Rain Soulkey Queen Snow Flash Jaedong. Any of the guys that comeback years after competing in sc2 they still phenomenal players. Is actually shocking you claiming that those 2 OSLs were meaningless tbh. Definitely not meaningless but less significant (or less difficult) would be more correct. I won WCG USA in 2010 when SC2 beta came out and that tournament, along with everything in SC1 was severely easier because people we playing SC2 so much. Literally the final was Nyoken and myself, the only two American players who didn't switch to SC2. It was like this at all levels at that time. I'll add that I throw less significant or less difficult around guys like Garimto as well because literally everyone was so terrible back then that the game is hardly recognizable. When Boxer and especially when Oov and NaDa started winning, players were pretty damn good and the scene was ultra competitive. That tracks as per foreigners switching to SC2 and that new pasture opening up. I’m not sure it necessarily applies to those last Starleagues in quite the same way. Or the last Proleague for that matter. It’s your last chance to make your mark in a game you’ve been a high level pro in for years, with no 100% guarantee you’ll make it in the new title. Be that taking a first Starleague, or solidifying an existing legacy. That seems a pretty big motivator. I think subsequently as well someone like Fantasy really stuck around in SC2 because he wanted to win and compete in tournaments, and that’s partly why he didn’t really return to BW wholesale. Jangbi also didn’t really stick around long in SC2 and also didn’t return to BW properly subsequently. I dunno, that’s my recollection for Fantasy and what he said. I may be entirely wrong! Just feels that the regular prestige + the last shot ever at it is too potent a combo for potential contenders not to bite
If you were a pro and you made your living off gaming, it was stupid to still focus on SC1 instead of SC2. Immediately GSLs and other tournaments had higher prize pools than OSLs and I mean significantly higher. Also, sponsors and teams expected you to play SC2.
Jangbi didn't even win his tournaments during the beta and early SC2 scene which started basically at the beginning of 2010. Effort and FlaSh were still snatching titles in 2010 when SC2 released. Jangbi won his titles in 2011 and 2012 when it was full fledged SC2 and the SC1 pro scene was decimated. Jangbi really never won anything during the true KeSPA era / peak SC1. He came close once or twice but never won until his competition was SEVERELY weaker.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
