On February 10 2025 16:22 G5 wrote: Damn, this thread is still going on?
I gave my thoughts on it but I am curious (and I'm sorry but I am not reading 14 pages to try and find this answer), has there been any general consensus on why P always underperforms at the highest level?
yeah. the answer is that it doesnt.
Well that's just wrong. Protoss clearly does the worst at the pro level.
Really? Let us translate what you really mean: no championship at SSL Autumn. You had 2 out of all 4 semifinals spots at the latest SSL Autumn. If you had the right mindset that would have translated into a victory by now. Protoss does the best, they just don't know what Soulkey knows - you should go back and watch the playoffs to know what is missing, but I bet none of you watched it since it seemed unexciting to you, it was the most genius mindgame in my opinion:
Once you enter the playoffs, you will never meet %50 of the entrees until Ro2. That can literally make or brake your chances if you have avoided meeting them in Ro16, Ro8, or Ro4 even. I told this before, Rain had a higher win chance with 64% PvZ win rate than Snow with %44. Sharp had a higher chance against against Rain(%54) than Snow(%65.71~%66!) PvT. In one fell swoop, Soulkey avoided having to meet runner up Rain ending his Bonjwa aspirations. Even I don't think I have the full details, it could be perchance this all happened. Everything went according to Soulkey the master manipulator's plan. If you cannot see that the stage was set BEFORE a game took place at Ro16, tough luck. That is all I am saying.
On February 11 2025 01:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Hell i have seen Protoss doing it on 38 workers.
IMO 40 probe pressure plays are kind of an equivalent of staying on 35 drones making hydra for a long time. Can kill greed, will fall behind vs solid defensive play, if didn't overstay on it can still transition out, etc.
This is a perfect example of what im talking about.
35 drones doesnt really compare to 40 protoss workers. Specially when zerg has to mine from 3 expos to make it efficient while protoss can be super efficient on 1 base.
I feel like Protoss players obsess too much with a 50 workers eco early on. And in most of cases is counter productive. When i say Protoss players i mean low skill like you. Progamers actually know how to balance that stuff.
On February 10 2025 16:22 G5 wrote: Damn, this thread is still going on?
I gave my thoughts on it but I am curious (and I'm sorry but I am not reading 14 pages to try and find this answer), has there been any general consensus on why P always underperforms at the highest level?
yeah. the answer is that it doesnt.
Well that's just wrong. Protoss clearly does the worst at the pro level.
Underperforms where ? In proleagues they doing hot. For a long time BTW.
In ASL ? god knows why. Nerves ? Not adapted to the ASL setups ? Not enough offline competitions to really show their best ?
I know for a fact Snow for almost his entire career is not the same player when he plays offline.
On February 11 2025 01:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Hell i have seen Protoss doing it on 38 workers.
IMO 40 probe pressure plays are kind of an equivalent of staying on 35 drones making hydra for a long time. Can kill greed, will fall behind vs solid defensive play, if didn't overstay on it can still transition out, etc.
This is a perfect example of what im talking about.
35 drones doesnt really compare to 40 protoss workers. Specially when zerg has to mine from 3 expos to make it efficient while protoss can be super efficient on 1 base.
I feel like Protoss players obsess too much with a 50 workers eco early on. And in most of cases is counter productive. When i say Protoss players i mean low skill like you. Progamers actually know how to balance that stuff.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this BS? Zerg workers are similar enough in efficiency to all other races. They mine from an extra base because crowding lowers efficiency universally and they need the extra hatchery anyway. So 35 drones in fact clears a 40 probe 1 base.
As for protoss players and lack of one on top. I don't know sure I'll accept the race could be weaker, the maps could be worse. But when we have periods where wall busts are super popular in PvZ, and for a minute or two the protoss gets off zero scouting, and adds no cannons, not even 1. Or where they slam into corsairs just to lose them despite the massive investment they are while knowing the hard counter has been massed, when they could wait out for a better opportunity to go for the overlord insta-win kill move. Maybe their spell is too micro intesnive, but if you have 12 should you not have it? Also why do you need so many early at times? You can literally 2 starport later, while getting more universal tech online sooner. Why in late game are there no reavers anymore they are constant value.
I'm sure there is plenty more. And maybe you can claim I am dead wrong in some of them, but all? I feel like when there is a recipe they just all follow it and haven't broken through. Like they don't stop and say oh shit, my 2 base zealot storm push has zero chance of working, let me instead use them to secure a 3rd and quick 4th and play defensive with heavy storm and do a later push. They just live on the razors edge and full send. Obviously this isn't always the meta has come and gone. It is almost like protoss pro players hive mind it which means that zergs can practice against one they've practiced against all IMO.
yeah, it's all coincidence and protoss fault that they don't win, despite their biggest player pool.
Meanwhile, i'm just gonna leave it here: KCM/Race Survival (for the lazy ones: 4 out of 32 season victories, 12,5% win rate, where 33,3% should be the average)
Games are usually balanced based off the results of the best players. If i play another game and I'm best at it, things i play get nerfed, it's the natural way of things. Of course we won't do any balancing with StarCraft, but if we had, i'm sure its Protoss that gets a buff.
On February 10 2025 16:22 G5 wrote: Damn, this thread is still going on?
I gave my thoughts on it but I am curious (and I'm sorry but I am not reading 14 pages to try and find this answer), has there been any general consensus on why P always underperforms at the highest level?
yeah. the answer is that it doesnt.
Well that's just wrong. Protoss clearly does the worst at the pro level.
Underperforms where ? In proleagues they doing hot. For a long time BTW.
In ASL ? god knows why. Nerves ? Not adapted to the ASL setups ? Not enough offline competitions to really show their best ?
I know for a fact Snow for almost his entire career is not the same player when he plays offline.
25+ years of competitive SC says Protoss is the weakest. Throughout generations of different maps, metas, and players, Protoss has generally always been the least successful at the pro level. The game is balanced enough that ANY race CAN win. However, I think it's undeniable, unless you have a severe personal bias, that Protoss is the least successful race at the pro level throughout the history of SC:BW and by a significant margin. You can cherry pick anything but 25+ years of professional StarCraft is hard to deny.
On February 12 2025 15:56 Bonyth wrote: yeah, it's all coincidence and protoss fault that they don't win, despite their biggest player pool.
Meanwhile, i'm just gonna leave it here: KCM/Race Survival (for the lazy ones: 4 out of 32 season victories, 12,5% win rate, where 33,3% should be the average)
Games are usually balanced based off the results of the best players. If i play another game and I'm best at it, things i play get nerfed, it's the natural way of things. Of course we won't do any balancing with StarCraft, but if we had, i'm sure its Protoss that gets a buff.
I'm just going to say with all due respect, eventhough I am a fan of your work and respect you as a player, out of league games lack sound execution are uninspired. They try to throw off the opponent's game too hard and try stuff wouldn't fly in a tournament environment like rushing at cross spawn. Never. I think that confounds the issue. Games shouldn't be won by whomever can throw the game harder. It should be won by who shapes the meta like Bisu over past terrans, Flash over Bisu in the past. It can be said Flash cheesed, but it was at least consistent. It could at least be considered meta when he started it and all successive Terrans copied it. There is no meta in survival series.
35 drones doesnt really compare to 40 protoss workers. Specially when zerg has to mine from 3 expos to make it efficient while protoss can be super efficient on 1 base.
I feel like Protoss players obsess too much with a 50 workers eco early on. And in most of cases is counter productive. When i say Protoss players i mean low skill like you. Progamers actually know how to balance that stuff.
Did the math a while ago, and an extra mineral line is worth about 5 workers of efficiency, when comparing to full saturation. Like, proportional split of 25 probes between 2 bases, by mineral patch count, is mining same as 30 on 1 base(3 on gas in both cases) That's for same race compared to itself, and also it has less impact before full efficiency, although the progression is not linear. Don't think there'd be too much difference between 40 probes on 2 base and 35 drones on 3, and if there is, that'd be because of nexus mining.
I'd agree that rushing probe count early is not ideal. Minerals are not particularly good in the matchup in the first place, specially after 10 min. Reducing own mineral income to reduce zerg's mineral income by equivalent amount should be good in theory.
Part of the issue is that async defenses such as mutas make it less relevant, how many zealots how fast P gets, and that's the main thing that gets boosted by the probe cut around 7 minutes. P does what, pushes with zealots to force mutas to be made, splits off to run away, and then uses them to threaten counter-attack if mutas go to harass. Whether it is 15 or 9 zealots, will not matter too much.
At the same time, P still may not be able to get 3rd going before sair blob+archon vs muta+scourge, so it is mostly gas limitation. After you have an archon done and 6 sairs, could have 56 probes and have them already in process of paying off.
On February 11 2025 01:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Hell i have seen Protoss doing it on 38 workers.
IMO 40 probe pressure plays are kind of an equivalent of staying on 35 drones making hydra for a long time. Can kill greed, will fall behind vs solid defensive play, if didn't overstay on it can still transition out, etc.
This is a perfect example of what im talking about.
35 drones doesnt really compare to 40 protoss workers. Specially when zerg has to mine from 3 expos to make it efficient while protoss can be super efficient on 1 base.
I feel like Protoss players obsess too much with a 50 workers eco early on. And in most of cases is counter productive. When i say Protoss players i mean low skill like you. Progamers actually know how to balance that stuff.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this BS? Zerg workers are similar enough in efficiency to all other races. They mine from an extra base because crowding lowers efficiency universally and they need the extra hatchery anyway. So 35 drones in fact clears a 40 probe 1 base.
As for protoss players and lack of one on top. I don't know sure I'll accept the race could be weaker, the maps could be worse. But when we have periods where wall busts are super popular in PvZ, and for a minute or two the protoss gets off zero scouting, and adds no cannons, not even 1. Or where they slam into corsairs just to lose them despite the massive investment they are while knowing the hard counter has been massed, when they could wait out for a better opportunity to go for the overlord insta-win kill move. Maybe their spell is too micro intesnive, but if you have 12 should you not have it? Also why do you need so many early at times? You can literally 2 starport later, while getting more universal tech online sooner. Why in late game are there no reavers anymore they are constant value.
I'm sure there is plenty more. And maybe you can claim I am dead wrong in some of them, but all? I feel like when there is a recipe they just all follow it and haven't broken through. Like they don't stop and say oh shit, my 2 base zealot storm push has zero chance of working, let me instead use them to secure a 3rd and quick 4th and play defensive with heavy storm and do a later push. They just live on the razors edge and full send. Obviously this isn't always the meta has come and gone. It is almost like protoss pro players hive mind it which means that zergs can practice against one they've practiced against all IMO.
It is true that successful protoss players have their own playstyles which are studied on and practiced counters against, however that does not have a net effect on their win streak. Stork is still a WCG winner that is currently playing. The fact that other players win now is because we are cutting the Starcraft timeline and starting at a later date. Back then, no one could rise against terrans until Stork put a stop to that. It is because they have a certain playstyle developed no one can counter that they still win. When they lose, it is because they cannot successfully replicate in their training partners the random playstyles their opponents have. Protoss has a more fleshed out gameplay that can be stereotypical, but it always comes down to lack of scouting that they lose, imo. They cannot zone in like say Jaedong, they have to keep up tabs with their opponents. That can strain protoss. Observers are really easy to snipe.
On February 11 2025 01:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Hell i have seen Protoss doing it on 38 workers.
IMO 40 probe pressure plays are kind of an equivalent of staying on 35 drones making hydra for a long time. Can kill greed, will fall behind vs solid defensive play, if didn't overstay on it can still transition out, etc.
This is a perfect example of what im talking about.
35 drones doesnt really compare to 40 protoss workers. Specially when zerg has to mine from 3 expos to make it efficient while protoss can be super efficient on 1 base.
I feel like Protoss players obsess too much with a 50 workers eco early on. And in most of cases is counter productive. When i say Protoss players i mean low skill like you. Progamers actually know how to balance that stuff.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this BS? Zerg workers are similar enough in efficiency to all other races. They mine from an extra base because crowding lowers efficiency universally and they need the extra hatchery anyway. So 35 drones in fact clears a 40 probe 1 base.
As for protoss players and lack of one on top. I don't know sure I'll accept the race could be weaker, the maps could be worse. But when we have periods where wall busts are super popular in PvZ, and for a minute or two the protoss gets off zero scouting, and adds no cannons, not even 1. Or where they slam into corsairs just to lose them despite the massive investment they are while knowing the hard counter has been massed, when they could wait out for a better opportunity to go for the overlord insta-win kill move. Maybe their spell is too micro intesnive, but if you have 12 should you not have it? Also why do you need so many early at times? You can literally 2 starport later, while getting more universal tech online sooner. Why in late game are there no reavers anymore they are constant value.
I'm sure there is plenty more. And maybe you can claim I am dead wrong in some of them, but all? I feel like when there is a recipe they just all follow it and haven't broken through. Like they don't stop and say oh shit, my 2 base zealot storm push has zero chance of working, let me instead use them to secure a 3rd and quick 4th and play defensive with heavy storm and do a later push. They just live on the razors edge and full send. Obviously this isn't always the meta has come and gone. It is almost like protoss pro players hive mind it which means that zergs can practice against one they've practiced against all IMO.
I feel like you could answer all this by watching the game i linked.
If two players mine out and the zerg player send 40 drones to 1 base and the protoss uses 40 workers to mine from 1 expo. Guess who actually hass better eco ? In fact all those protoss players handle hydra bust pretty well these days. Is not exagerate as you protoss fans make it seems. The problem comes with Snow or Mini or Bisu underperforming offline that make those builds shine more.
On February 10 2025 16:22 G5 wrote: Damn, this thread is still going on?
I gave my thoughts on it but I am curious (and I'm sorry but I am not reading 14 pages to try and find this answer), has there been any general consensus on why P always underperforms at the highest level?
yeah. the answer is that it doesnt.
Well that's just wrong. Protoss clearly does the worst at the pro level.
Underperforms where ? In proleagues they doing hot. For a long time BTW.
In ASL ? god knows why. Nerves ? Not adapted to the ASL setups ? Not enough offline competitions to really show their best ?
I know for a fact Snow for almost his entire career is not the same player when he plays offline.
25+ years of competitive SC says Protoss is the weakest. Throughout generations of different maps, metas, and players, Protoss has generally always been the least successful at the pro level. The game is balanced enough that ANY race CAN win. However, I think it's undeniable, unless you have a severe personal bias, that Protoss is the least successful race at the pro level throughout the history of SC:BW and by a significant margin. You can cherry pick anything but 25+ years of professional StarCraft is hard to deny.
The way i see it this game has always worked with meta advancement.
My issue with this is that We had Boxer iloveoov Nada FlaSh Savior Jaedong Julyzerg that took the glory from others.
How can i even debate this 25 years dominance when is always the same individuals winning everything ?
Jangbi actually could have been an actual golden mouse winner if OSL just kept going. But We will never know.
Bisu could have been an OSL winner if he didnt die to Shine and failed to qualify for OSL.
SHine from everyone that plays the same build vs Stork or a different Protoss and will get demolished. But vs Bisu actually worked.
And we back to the same topic.
PROTOSS IS DOMINATING IN PROLEAGUES.
So ok eon Protoss is actually not good in box series . Ok
MINI AND SNOW IN THEIR BEST MOMEMT ALSO GOT ELIMINATED FROM A ROUND OF 24 bo1.
Btw i totally agree that round of 24 bo1 is actually terrible. It really sucks to see your favorite players eliminated with so few games.
Watch Soulkey vs Mini ASL final. Watch their last game and the biggest underpeformance you could see from any protoss.
And the maps never been this good for pvz. Im not sure about pvt tho. It seems that Terran with this easy 4 bases Setup is actually an issue but very few people are talking about that. The PTSD from hydra bust is so high on you guys that you barely focus on the real issue.
On February 12 2025 15:56 Bonyth wrote: yeah, it's all coincidence and protoss fault that they don't win, despite their biggest player pool.
Meanwhile, i'm just gonna leave it here: KCM/Race Survival (for the lazy ones: 4 out of 32 season victories, 12,5% win rate, where 33,3% should be the average)
Games are usually balanced based off the results of the best players. If i play another game and I'm best at it, things i play get nerfed, it's the natural way of things. Of course we won't do any balancing with StarCraft, but if we had, i'm sure its Protoss that gets a buff.
As i know around remastered the professionals were asked about balance patch. They said no. Many intervirew exist from top pros ( Flash,Jaedong,Mini ). They are overall said the same thing. But dont trust them of course trust yourself :D
they said no, because they didn't trust Blizzard. They were afraid that Blizzard makes some balance changes, leave the game alone (because no crew works on SC), and the game is left potentially broken.
On February 12 2025 20:16 Bonyth wrote: they said no, because they didn't trust Blizzard. They were afraid that Blizzard makes some balance changes, leave the game alone (because no crew works on SC), and the game is left potentially broken.
you can rotate this however you want. But you cant rotate the interview ( even from Mini ) I prefer to trust them and myself in this regard.
That "many interviews" according to the foreigners is one jinjin video I think. And some people act like Protoss players were asked "if you no longer gets hydra busted anymore would you agree", and they would answer "no our race is too strong already that would be unfair to Zerg",
I dont know the specific questions they were asked back then but just look at the recent balance patch in SC2 you can see why the people of SC1 are afraid of any changes to the game.
On February 12 2025 20:58 Bonyth wrote: It's not what I think, it's what Flash said.
What I think is that progamers will earn similar money with or without balance changes, and no balance changes is definitely the safer option for them
why earn similiar money with or without balance changes? if u thought protoss are underperformed and weakest race and need buff? then probably Snow will win ASL and Mini more and Bisu and etc not ? its makes no sense right?
On February 12 2025 21:36 TMNT wrote: That "many interviews" according to the foreigners is one jinjin video I think. And some people act like Protoss players were asked "if you no longer gets hydra busted anymore would you agree", and they would answer "no our race is too strong already that would be unfair to Zerg",
I dont know the specific questions they were asked back then but just look at the recent balance patch in SC2 you can see why the people of SC1 are afraid of any changes to the game.
There’s a pretty big influence of time and a culture of not patching as well I’d imagine.
Brood War takes on this sacred reverence and the mere idea of patching is sacrilege to some. For others perhaps it’s just a conservative resistance to change something they’ve been familiar with for forever.
SC2’s been actively patched since release, I think generally for the better but it also creates a culture of whining and demanding patches all the time.
EPT
KCM/Race Survival
