On February 03 2025 08:19 Qikz wrote: Protoss have always historically been better in team tournaments compared to solo tournaments outside of very few players like Bisu, Jangbi and Stork. The issue in solo tournaments is that the best protoss players often have 2 amazing matchups and one really bad matchup (often PvZ) and if they get unlucky they get knocked out early by their bad matchup. In team tournaments it's more likely with strategy they avoid it and that's how you get the Six Dragons/Legend of the Fall from Proleague history.
What also doesn't help is historically there are a lot of insanely good ZvP specialists and very few PvZ specialists. I'd love to see how many protoss players have been knocked out by a Zerg overall historically, I imagine it's a lot higher than protoss knockouts from PvT (just because a lot more protosses were PvT specialists in comparison)
I cannot wrap my head around the level of dilusion in some protoss players. Rain got knocked out by Sharp of all people who is a TvP specialist. I mean, why bother with these fake narratives? Also, this outcasting of Bisu and Mini - no other race casts out their best players. None. All zergs want to be Soulkey, all terrans want to be Flash. What is with you people doing the opposite of your most aggressive AND successful players playing tower defence against zerg for no reason other than complacency?
I mean, if there's anything delusional in this thread, it's your "game changing" theory of how PvZ should be played. Nexus on 9 anyone?
The part you bolded is neither a narrative nor fake. If anything it's too obvious it doesn't need to be said. P get knocked out more by Z, just like Z get knocked out more by T. I just can't fathom how your brain processes things. So Rain getting knocked out by Sharp = P not getting knocked out more by Z? Huh? huh?
And why do keep talking about Protoss playing tower defence? Why do you act like Bisu and Mini play a different PvZ game to the rest? Both are just not true lol. You just keep starting on that false premise and digging your hole deeper.
On February 03 2025 08:19 Qikz wrote: Protoss have always historically been better in team tournaments compared to solo tournaments outside of very few players like Bisu, Jangbi and Stork. The issue in solo tournaments is that the best protoss players often have 2 amazing matchups and one really bad matchup (often PvZ) and if they get unlucky they get knocked out early by their bad matchup. In team tournaments it's more likely with strategy they avoid it and that's how you get the Six Dragons/Legend of the Fall from Proleague history.
What also doesn't help is historically there are a lot of insanely good ZvP specialists and very few PvZ specialists. I'd love to see how many protoss players have been knocked out by a Zerg overall historically, I imagine it's a lot higher than protoss knockouts from PvT (just because a lot more protosses were PvT specialists in comparison)
I cannot wrap my head around the level of dilusion in some protoss players. Rain got knocked out by Sharp of all people who is a TvP specialist. I mean, why bother with these fake narratives? Also, this outcasting of Bisu and Mini - no other race casts out their best players. None. All zergs want to be Soulkey, all terrans want to be Flash. What is with you people doing the opposite of your most aggressive AND successful players playing tower defence against zerg for no reason other than complacency?
I mean, if there's anything delusional in this thread, it's your "game changing" theory of how PvZ should be played. Nexus on 9 anyone?
The part you bolded is neither a narrative nor fake. If anything it's too obvious it doesn't need to be said. P get knocked out more by Z, just like Z get knocked out more by T. I just can't fathom how your brain processes things. So Rain getting knocked out by Sharp = P not getting knocked out more by Z? Huh? huh?
And why do keep talking about Protoss playing tower defence? Why do you act like Bisu and Mini play a different PvZ game to the rest? Both are just not true lol. You just keep starting on that false premise and digging your hole deeper.
I literally responded to a comment "protoss does not get knocked out more by terrans" by showing in fact they do in the case of Rain vs Sharp. Rain literally had every chance to reach the finals if that statement were true and PvT was less competitive a matchup, however it was as fake as the rest of the narrative. I literally won't quote every comment here since I don't know how to multiquote on this site, lol, however never have I seen terran and zerg players single out Flash and Soulkey for excellence. If anything they aspire to them. It is only Protoss players who have the least aspiration to make anything of themselves that slight Bisu and Mini in hopes game will be patched and miraculously they will learn to play protoss. Stop magical thinking folks.
On February 03 2025 08:19 Qikz wrote: Protoss have always historically been better in team tournaments compared to solo tournaments outside of very few players like Bisu, Jangbi and Stork. The issue in solo tournaments is that the best protoss players often have 2 amazing matchups and one really bad matchup (often PvZ) and if they get unlucky they get knocked out early by their bad matchup. In team tournaments it's more likely with strategy they avoid it and that's how you get the Six Dragons/Legend of the Fall from Proleague history.
What also doesn't help is historically there are a lot of insanely good ZvP specialists and very few PvZ specialists. I'd love to see how many protoss players have been knocked out by a Zerg overall historically, I imagine it's a lot higher than protoss knockouts from PvT (just because a lot more protosses were PvT specialists in comparison)
I cannot wrap my head around the level of dilusion in some protoss players. Rain got knocked out by Sharp of all people who is a TvP specialist. I mean, why bother with these fake narratives? Also, this outcasting of Bisu and Mini - no other race casts out their best players. None. All zergs want to be Soulkey, all terrans want to be Flash. What is with you people doing the opposite of your most aggressive AND successful players playing tower defence against zerg for no reason other than complacency?
I mean, if there's anything delusional in this thread, it's your "game changing" theory of how PvZ should be played. Nexus on 9 anyone?
The part you bolded is neither a narrative nor fake. If anything it's too obvious it doesn't need to be said. P get knocked out more by Z, just like Z get knocked out more by T. I just can't fathom how your brain processes things. So Rain getting knocked out by Sharp = P not getting knocked out more by Z? Huh? huh?
And why do keep talking about Protoss playing tower defence? Why do you act like Bisu and Mini play a different PvZ game to the rest? Both are just not true lol. You just keep starting on that false premise and digging your hole deeper.
I literally responded to a comment "protoss does not get knocked out more by terrans" by showing in fact they do in the case of Rain vs Sharp. Rain literally had every chance to reach the finals if that statement were true and PvT was less competitive a matchup, however it was as fake as the rest of the narrative. I literally won't quote every comment here since I don't know how to multiquote on this site, lol, however never have I seen terran and zerg players single out Flash and Soulkey for excellence. If anything they aspire to them. It is only Protoss players who have the least aspiration to make anything of themselves that slight Bisu and Mini in hopes game will be patched and miraculously they will learn to play protoss. Stop magical thinking folks.
Dude, or dudette, what are you talking about?
Whether the numbers actually back this up, people were saying it generally tends to be Z that dispose of Toss hopes more.
Other people also said in the last few pages that Toss also somewhat suffers from top players having a weak matchup. Often, but not always vZ incidentally. Can be PvP or PvT as well.
Rain, who maybe isn’t a stone cold PvT killer these days losing to Sharp who’s a great TvP player doesn’t go against that at bit of discussion at all.
Who is slighting Bisu and Mini in the hope the game gets patched?
On February 03 2025 08:19 Qikz wrote: Protoss have always historically been better in team tournaments compared to solo tournaments outside of very few players like Bisu, Jangbi and Stork. The issue in solo tournaments is that the best protoss players often have 2 amazing matchups and one really bad matchup (often PvZ) and if they get unlucky they get knocked out early by their bad matchup. In team tournaments it's more likely with strategy they avoid it and that's how you get the Six Dragons/Legend of the Fall from Proleague history.
What also doesn't help is historically there are a lot of insanely good ZvP specialists and very few PvZ specialists. I'd love to see how many protoss players have been knocked out by a Zerg overall historically, I imagine it's a lot higher than protoss knockouts from PvT (just because a lot more protosses were PvT specialists in comparison)
I cannot wrap my head around the level of dilusion in some protoss players. Rain got knocked out by Sharp of all people who is a TvP specialist. I mean, why bother with these fake narratives? Also, this outcasting of Bisu and Mini - no other race casts out their best players. None. All zergs want to be Soulkey, all terrans want to be Flash. What is with you people doing the opposite of your most aggressive AND successful players playing tower defence against zerg for no reason other than complacency?
What tower defence? What you are talking about? All protoss players including Bisu have no choice but to build walls and cannons. Or be overwhelmed by lings or hydras.
A single example of Sharp does not prove anything.
On February 03 2025 08:19 Qikz wrote: Protoss have always historically been better in team tournaments compared to solo tournaments outside of very few players like Bisu, Jangbi and Stork. The issue in solo tournaments is that the best protoss players often have 2 amazing matchups and one really bad matchup (often PvZ) and if they get unlucky they get knocked out early by their bad matchup. In team tournaments it's more likely with strategy they avoid it and that's how you get the Six Dragons/Legend of the Fall from Proleague history.
What also doesn't help is historically there are a lot of insanely good ZvP specialists and very few PvZ specialists. I'd love to see how many protoss players have been knocked out by a Zerg overall historically, I imagine it's a lot higher than protoss knockouts from PvT (just because a lot more protosses were PvT specialists in comparison)
I cannot wrap my head around the level of dilusion in some protoss players. Rain got knocked out by Sharp of all people who is a TvP specialist. I mean, why bother with these fake narratives? Also, this outcasting of Bisu and Mini - no other race casts out their best players. None. All zergs want to be Soulkey, all terrans want to be Flash. What is with you people doing the opposite of your most aggressive AND successful players playing tower defence against zerg for no reason other than complacency?
I mean, if there's anything delusional in this thread, it's your "game changing" theory of how PvZ should be played. Nexus on 9 anyone?
The part you bolded is neither a narrative nor fake. If anything it's too obvious it doesn't need to be said. P get knocked out more by Z, just like Z get knocked out more by T. I just can't fathom how your brain processes things. So Rain getting knocked out by Sharp = P not getting knocked out more by Z? Huh? huh?
And why do keep talking about Protoss playing tower defence? Why do you act like Bisu and Mini play a different PvZ game to the rest? Both are just not true lol. You just keep starting on that false premise and digging your hole deeper.
I literally responded to a comment "protoss does not get knocked out more by terrans" by showing in fact they do in the case of Rain vs Sharp. Rain literally had every chance to reach the finals if that statement were true and PvT was less competitive a matchup, however it was as fake as the rest of the narrative. I literally won't quote every comment here since I don't know how to multiquote on this site, lol, however never have I seen terran and zerg players single out Flash and Soulkey for excellence. If anything they aspire to them. It is only Protoss players who have the least aspiration to make anything of themselves that slight Bisu and Mini in hopes game will be patched and miraculously they will learn to play protoss. Stop magical thinking folks.
Dude, or dudette, what are you talking about?
Whether the numbers actually back this up, people were saying it generally tends to be Z that dispose of Toss hopes more.
Other people also said in the last few pages that Toss also somewhat suffers from top players having a weak matchup. Often, but not always vZ incidentally. Can be PvP or PvT as well.
Rain, who maybe isn’t a stone cold PvT killer these days losing to Sharp who’s a great TvP player doesn’t go against that at bit of discussion at all.
Who is slighting Bisu and Mini in the hope the game gets patched?
"Whether the numbers actually back this up" - literally what are we discussing for if the numbers won't even hold up your views. What are you guys discussing, I'm really struggling to make sense of it to no avail. Facts, protoss players who display this dissonance have low results and high esteem of their FE tower defense gameplay. No amount of corrections and rebuttals put a dent in their arguments because their arguments are proven incorrect and they hold a stuck viewpoint regardless. That is why I think new players are so much more interesting. They might not reach top tier, but you know they stuck their neck out for a well deserved win. PS: those two most successful protoss players have something in common. They have the fastest average games out of any protoss pros. I told you tower defense don't win you any favours.
Dude is just a troll or a very bad AI lol. But a very different kind of troll indeed.
PS: those two most successful protoss players have something in common. They have the fastest average games out of any protoss pros. I told you tower defense don't win you any favours. https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=590s
First of all, them having fastest average game time doesn't mean anything but their playstyle. The problem is way more complicated than that. Secondly, you're even dead wrong in getting your "facts". This is data from ASL+KSL. And Bisu is not as succesful as Rain or Snow in ASL+KSL. So you're going nowhere.
You appear to be someone whose knowledge of BW all comes from following Artosis and Tasteless' youtube channel and probably don't even play the game yourself but somehow think you're better than an entire player base including progamers. Talk about delusion.
On February 03 2025 08:19 Qikz wrote: Protoss have always historically been better in team tournaments compared to solo tournaments outside of very few players like Bisu, Jangbi and Stork. The issue in solo tournaments is that the best protoss players often have 2 amazing matchups and one really bad matchup (often PvZ) and if they get unlucky they get knocked out early by their bad matchup. In team tournaments it's more likely with strategy they avoid it and that's how you get the Six Dragons/Legend of the Fall from Proleague history.
What also doesn't help is historically there are a lot of insanely good ZvP specialists and very few PvZ specialists. I'd love to see how many protoss players have been knocked out by a Zerg overall historically, I imagine it's a lot higher than protoss knockouts from PvT (just because a lot more protosses were PvT specialists in comparison)
I cannot wrap my head around the level of dilusion in some protoss players. Rain got knocked out by Sharp of all people who is a TvP specialist. I mean, why bother with these fake narratives? Also, this outcasting of Bisu and Mini - no other race casts out their best players. None. All zergs want to be Soulkey, all terrans want to be Flash. What is with you people doing the opposite of your most aggressive AND successful players playing tower defence against zerg for no reason other than complacency?
I mean, if there's anything delusional in this thread, it's your "game changing" theory of how PvZ should be played. Nexus on 9 anyone?
The part you bolded is neither a narrative nor fake. If anything it's too obvious it doesn't need to be said. P get knocked out more by Z, just like Z get knocked out more by T. I just can't fathom how your brain processes things. So Rain getting knocked out by Sharp = P not getting knocked out more by Z? Huh? huh?
And why do keep talking about Protoss playing tower defence? Why do you act like Bisu and Mini play a different PvZ game to the rest? Both are just not true lol. You just keep starting on that false premise and digging your hole deeper.
I literally responded to a comment "protoss does not get knocked out more by terrans" by showing in fact they do in the case of Rain vs Sharp. Rain literally had every chance to reach the finals if that statement were true and PvT was less competitive a matchup, however it was as fake as the rest of the narrative. I literally won't quote every comment here since I don't know how to multiquote on this site, lol, however never have I seen terran and zerg players single out Flash and Soulkey for excellence. If anything they aspire to them. It is only Protoss players who have the least aspiration to make anything of themselves that slight Bisu and Mini in hopes game will be patched and miraculously they will learn to play protoss. Stop magical thinking folks.
Dude, or dudette, what are you talking about?
Whether the numbers actually back this up, people were saying it generally tends to be Z that dispose of Toss hopes more.
Other people also said in the last few pages that Toss also somewhat suffers from top players having a weak matchup. Often, but not always vZ incidentally. Can be PvP or PvT as well.
Rain, who maybe isn’t a stone cold PvT killer these days losing to Sharp who’s a great TvP player doesn’t go against that at bit of discussion at all.
Who is slighting Bisu and Mini in the hope the game gets patched?
"Whether the numbers actually back this up" - literally what are we discussing for if the numbers won't even hold up your views. What are you guys discussing, I'm really struggling to make sense of it to no avail. Facts, protoss players who display this dissonance have low results and high esteem of their FE tower defense gameplay. No amount of corrections and rebuttals put a dent in their arguments because their arguments are proven incorrect and they hold a stuck viewpoint regardless. That is why I think new players are so much more interesting. They might not reach top tier, but you know they stuck their neck out for a well deserved win. PS: those two most successful protoss players have something in common. They have the fastest average games out of any protoss pros. I told you tower defense don't win you any favours. https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=590s
I said that is the perception, but perception can be faulty so perhaps if someone crunched the numbers and it’s NOT the case, then I’d take the correction.
On February 03 2025 08:19 Qikz wrote: Protoss have always historically been better in team tournaments compared to solo tournaments outside of very few players like Bisu, Jangbi and Stork. The issue in solo tournaments is that the best protoss players often have 2 amazing matchups and one really bad matchup (often PvZ) and if they get unlucky they get knocked out early by their bad matchup. In team tournaments it's more likely with strategy they avoid it and that's how you get the Six Dragons/Legend of the Fall from Proleague history.
What also doesn't help is historically there are a lot of insanely good ZvP specialists and very few PvZ specialists. I'd love to see how many protoss players have been knocked out by a Zerg overall historically, I imagine it's a lot higher than protoss knockouts from PvT (just because a lot more protosses were PvT specialists in comparison)
I cannot wrap my head around the level of dilusion in some protoss players. Rain got knocked out by Sharp of all people who is a TvP specialist. I mean, why bother with these fake narratives? Also, this outcasting of Bisu and Mini - no other race casts out their best players. None. All zergs want to be Soulkey, all terrans want to be Flash. What is with you people doing the opposite of your most aggressive AND successful players playing tower defence against zerg for no reason other than complacency?
I mean, if there's anything delusional in this thread, it's your "game changing" theory of how PvZ should be played. Nexus on 9 anyone?
The part you bolded is neither a narrative nor fake. If anything it's too obvious it doesn't need to be said. P get knocked out more by Z, just like Z get knocked out more by T. I just can't fathom how your brain processes things. So Rain getting knocked out by Sharp = P not getting knocked out more by Z? Huh? huh?
And why do keep talking about Protoss playing tower defence? Why do you act like Bisu and Mini play a different PvZ game to the rest? Both are just not true lol. You just keep starting on that false premise and digging your hole deeper.
I literally responded to a comment "protoss does not get knocked out more by terrans" by showing in fact they do in the case of Rain vs Sharp. Rain literally had every chance to reach the finals if that statement were true and PvT was less competitive a matchup, however it was as fake as the rest of the narrative. I literally won't quote every comment here since I don't know how to multiquote on this site, lol, however never have I seen terran and zerg players single out Flash and Soulkey for excellence. If anything they aspire to them. It is only Protoss players who have the least aspiration to make anything of themselves that slight Bisu and Mini in hopes game will be patched and miraculously they will learn to play protoss. Stop magical thinking folks.
Dude, or dudette, what are you talking about?
Whether the numbers actually back this up, people were saying it generally tends to be Z that dispose of Toss hopes more.
Other people also said in the last few pages that Toss also somewhat suffers from top players having a weak matchup. Often, but not always vZ incidentally. Can be PvP or PvT as well.
Rain, who maybe isn’t a stone cold PvT killer these days losing to Sharp who’s a great TvP player doesn’t go against that at bit of discussion at all.
Who is slighting Bisu and Mini in the hope the game gets patched?
"Whether the numbers actually back this up" - literally what are we discussing for if the numbers won't even hold up your views. What are you guys discussing, I'm really struggling to make sense of it to no avail. Facts, protoss players who display this dissonance have low results and high esteem of their FE tower defense gameplay. No amount of corrections and rebuttals put a dent in their arguments because their arguments are proven incorrect and they hold a stuck viewpoint regardless. That is why I think new players are so much more interesting. They might not reach top tier, but you know they stuck their neck out for a well deserved win. PS: those two most successful protoss players have something in common. They have the fastest average games out of any protoss pros. I told you tower defense don't win you any favours. https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=590s
all toss players aspire to be like SnOw. Not bisu. Not Mini. SnOw is the king of toss right now. has been for the last two years. If SnOw isnt vs soulkey or soma he tends to win pvz.
On February 04 2025 11:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: all toss players aspire to be like SnOw. Not bisu. Not Mini. SnOw is the king of toss right now. has been for the last two years. If SnOw isnt vs soulkey or soma he tends to win pvz.
I was going to quote this as a misnomer, but feared somebody would say this as if true. Yup, fake as the rest of the narrative. Snow sucks at pvz 44.3% win rate: https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=399s PS: he also has the lowest average win rate, doesn't even rank before Rain, Mini, Bisu. He is right above Best. In fact, his pvt is much higher than his pvz such that, had he played against sharp and rain played against Soulkey - both would play at their #1 matchup. https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=308s
On February 04 2025 11:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: all toss players aspire to be like SnOw. Not bisu. Not Mini. SnOw is the king of toss right now. has been for the last two years. If SnOw isnt vs soulkey or soma he tends to win pvz.
I was going to quote this as a misnomer, but feared somebody would say this as if true. Yup, fake as the rest of the narrative. Snow sucks at pvz 44.3% win rate: https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=399s PS: he also has the lowest average win rate, doesn't even rank before Rain, Mini, Bisu. He is right above Best. In fact, his pvt is much higher than his pvz such that, had he played against sharp and rain played against Soulkey - both would play at their #1 matchup. https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=308s
go use eloboard for your information. If you want to use information to prove a point, then use all of the data, not just 1% of the data. SnOw is up on all zergs except soulkey and soma, and before 2024 he was up on Soulkey.
On February 04 2025 11:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: all toss players aspire to be like SnOw. Not bisu. Not Mini. SnOw is the king of toss right now. has been for the last two years. If SnOw isnt vs soulkey or soma he tends to win pvz.
I was going to quote this as a misnomer, but feared somebody would say this as if true. Yup, fake as the rest of the narrative. Snow sucks at pvz 44.3% win rate: https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=399s PS: he also has the lowest average win rate, doesn't even rank before Rain, Mini, Bisu. He is right above Best. In fact, his pvt is much higher than his pvz such that, had he played against sharp and rain played against Soulkey - both would play at their #1 matchup. https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=308s
go use eloboard for your information. If you want to use information to prove a point, then use all of the data, not just 1% of the data. SnOw is up on all zergs except soulkey and soma, and before 2024 he was up on Soulkey.
If that were the case, Soulkey would prefer to include sharp, or JYJ with his group. Why is that not consistent with what happened actually? I'm just trying to prove you are wrong and need to reassess from a zerg perspective that maybe your strengths and weaknesses are not what you protosses consider them to be. Otherwise, you were the champion. Let's face it - Soulkey outsmarted two protosses in the finals by using his wildcard and will continue to do so unless you wisen up. I just told you of a resource that coincides %100 with what I say and what happened in SSL. I have no further proof to prove my point. PS: this data is 1 years old, even before factoring in the 2025 results that you say Snow was up on Soulkey in 2024 which I say statistically not true on average PvZ results.
On February 04 2025 11:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: all toss players aspire to be like SnOw. Not bisu. Not Mini. SnOw is the king of toss right now. has been for the last two years. If SnOw isnt vs soulkey or soma he tends to win pvz.
I was going to quote this as a misnomer, but feared somebody would say this as if true. Yup, fake as the rest of the narrative. Snow sucks at pvz 44.3% win rate: https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=399s PS: he also has the lowest average win rate, doesn't even rank before Rain, Mini, Bisu. He is right above Best. In fact, his pvt is much higher than his pvz such that, had he played against sharp and rain played against Soulkey - both would play at their #1 matchup. https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=308s
go use eloboard for your information. If you want to use information to prove a point, then use all of the data, not just 1% of the data. SnOw is up on all zergs except soulkey and soma, and before 2024 he was up on Soulkey.
If that were the case, Soulkey would prefer to include sharp, or JYJ with his group. Why is that not consistent with what happened actually? I'm just trying to prove you are wrong and need to reassess from a zerg perspective that maybe your strengths and weaknesses are not what you protosses consider them to be. Otherwise, you were the champion. Let's face it - Soulkey outsmarted two protosses in the finals by using his wildcard and will continue to do so unless you wisen up. I just told you of a resource that coincides %100 with what I say and what happened in SSL. I have no further proof to prove my point. PS: this data is 1 years old, even before factoring in the 2025 results that you say Snow was up on Soulkey in 2024 which I say statistically not true on average PvZ results.
except that in SSL1 Soulkey put 3 terrans into his Round of 16 group, two of which Rush and JyJ, two very stronf tvz players.
ASL17? JyJ again. and Bisu who has the highest PvZ winrate.
On February 04 2025 11:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: all toss players aspire to be like SnOw. Not bisu. Not Mini. SnOw is the king of toss right now. has been for the last two years. If SnOw isnt vs soulkey or soma he tends to win pvz.
I was going to quote this as a misnomer, but feared somebody would say this as if true. Yup, fake as the rest of the narrative. Snow sucks at pvz 44.3% win rate: https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=399s PS: he also has the lowest average win rate, doesn't even rank before Rain, Mini, Bisu. He is right above Best. In fact, his pvt is much higher than his pvz such that, had he played against sharp and rain played against Soulkey - both would play at their #1 matchup. https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=308s
go use eloboard for your information. If you want to use information to prove a point, then use all of the data, not just 1% of the data. SnOw is up on all zergs except soulkey and soma, and before 2024 he was up on Soulkey.
If that were the case, Soulkey would prefer to include sharp, or JYJ with his group. Why is that not consistent with what happened actually? I'm just trying to prove you are wrong and need to reassess from a zerg perspective that maybe your strengths and weaknesses are not what you protosses consider them to be. Otherwise, you were the champion. Let's face it - Soulkey outsmarted two protosses in the finals by using his wildcard and will continue to do so unless you wisen up. I just told you of a resource that coincides %100 with what I say and what happened in SSL. I have no further proof to prove my point. PS: this data is 1 years old, even before factoring in the 2025 results that you say Snow was up on Soulkey in 2024 which I say statistically not true on average PvZ results.
except that in SSL1 Soulkey put 3 terrans into his Round of 16 group, two of which Rush and JyJ, two very stronf tvz players.
ASL17? JyJ again. and Bisu who has the highest PvZ winrate.
Are you sure? Ro16 matches aren't final against a single opponent, Soulkey didn't have to win either of his elimination Ro16 matches. He could beat Sea and Rush and if JyJ didn't lose a match never face him again and continue. This happened exactly as I told with Jaedong against Light. Whereas a Ro4 game with 7 game series is entirely different. Rain has %64 win rate in PvZ. Snow has 44% - Soulkey reverse sweeped, I consider this is why. However, had Snow faced Sharp, he would most likely win since he ranks #1 in PvT with %65.71 win rate, almost %66, which is also Rain's weakest matchup %51! One stone two birds. Protoss are still none the wiser...
On February 04 2025 11:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: all toss players aspire to be like SnOw. Not bisu. Not Mini. SnOw is the king of toss right now. has been for the last two years. If SnOw isnt vs soulkey or soma he tends to win pvz.
I was going to quote this as a misnomer, but feared somebody would say this as if true. Yup, fake as the rest of the narrative. Snow sucks at pvz 44.3% win rate: https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=399s PS: he also has the lowest average win rate, doesn't even rank before Rain, Mini, Bisu. He is right above Best. In fact, his pvt is much higher than his pvz such that, had he played against sharp and rain played against Soulkey - both would play at their #1 matchup. https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=308s
go use eloboard for your information. If you want to use information to prove a point, then use all of the data, not just 1% of the data. SnOw is up on all zergs except soulkey and soma, and before 2024 he was up on Soulkey.
If that were the case, Soulkey would prefer to include sharp, or JYJ with his group. Why is that not consistent with what happened actually? I'm just trying to prove you are wrong and need to reassess from a zerg perspective that maybe your strengths and weaknesses are not what you protosses consider them to be. Otherwise, you were the champion. Let's face it - Soulkey outsmarted two protosses in the finals by using his wildcard and will continue to do so unless you wisen up. I just told you of a resource that coincides %100 with what I say and what happened in SSL. I have no further proof to prove my point. PS: this data is 1 years old, even before factoring in the 2025 results that you say Snow was up on Soulkey in 2024 which I say statistically not true on average PvZ results.
except that in SSL1 Soulkey put 3 terrans into his Round of 16 group, two of which Rush and JyJ, two very stronf tvz players.
ASL17? JyJ again. and Bisu who has the highest PvZ winrate.
Are you sure? Ro16 matches aren't final against a single opponent, Soulkey didn't have to win either of his elimination Ro16 matches. He could beat Sea and Rush and if JyJ didn't lose a match never face him again and continue. Whereas a Ro4 game with 7 game series is entirely different. Rain has %64 win rate in PvZ. Snow has 44% - Soulkey reverse sweeped, this I consider is why. However, had Snow faced Sharp, he would most likely win since he ranks #1 in PvT with %65.71 win rate, almost %66, which is also Rain's weakest matchup %51! One stone two birds. Protoss are still none the wiser...
Except Soulkey was placed vs Light. The best TvZ player in starcraft for the past 3 years. Light has been the one player to go even vs soulkey in online play. They have no control over who they get in Round of 8 othrr than that it cant be someone from their own Ro16 group. In SSL1 SnOw is the way better player than Rain. Every single korean agrees Soulkey got the hardest bracket side in SSL1 Round of 8. Both Light and SnOw, the best two players right behind Soulkey himself. At this point not a single one of your arguments make sense anymore. You are creating your own headcanon using largely very old stats to support your arguments, and decide to ignore literally thousands of games played over 2021-2025. Yet you decide to include stats from 2017-2024 that are purely based on one single tournament format.
On February 04 2025 11:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: all toss players aspire to be like SnOw. Not bisu. Not Mini. SnOw is the king of toss right now. has been for the last two years. If SnOw isnt vs soulkey or soma he tends to win pvz.
I was going to quote this as a misnomer, but feared somebody would say this as if true. Yup, fake as the rest of the narrative. Snow sucks at pvz 44.3% win rate: https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=399s PS: he also has the lowest average win rate, doesn't even rank before Rain, Mini, Bisu. He is right above Best. In fact, his pvt is much higher than his pvz such that, had he played against sharp and rain played against Soulkey - both would play at their #1 matchup. https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=308s
go use eloboard for your information. If you want to use information to prove a point, then use all of the data, not just 1% of the data. SnOw is up on all zergs except soulkey and soma, and before 2024 he was up on Soulkey.
If that were the case, Soulkey would prefer to include sharp, or JYJ with his group. Why is that not consistent with what happened actually? I'm just trying to prove you are wrong and need to reassess from a zerg perspective that maybe your strengths and weaknesses are not what you protosses consider them to be. Otherwise, you were the champion. Let's face it - Soulkey outsmarted two protosses in the finals by using his wildcard and will continue to do so unless you wisen up. I just told you of a resource that coincides %100 with what I say and what happened in SSL. I have no further proof to prove my point. PS: this data is 1 years old, even before factoring in the 2025 results that you say Snow was up on Soulkey in 2024 which I say statistically not true on average PvZ results.
except that in SSL1 Soulkey put 3 terrans into his Round of 16 group, two of which Rush and JyJ, two very stronf tvz players.
ASL17? JyJ again. and Bisu who has the highest PvZ winrate.
Are you sure? Ro16 matches aren't final against a single opponent, Soulkey didn't have to win either of his elimination Ro16 matches. He could beat Sea and Rush and if JyJ didn't lose a match never face him again and continue. Whereas a Ro4 game with 7 game series is entirely different. Rain has %64 win rate in PvZ. Snow has 44% - Soulkey reverse sweeped, this I consider is why. However, had Snow faced Sharp, he would most likely win since he ranks #1 in PvT with %65.71 win rate, almost %66, which is also Rain's weakest matchup %51! One stone two birds. Protoss are still none the wiser...
Except Soulkey was placed vs Light. The best TvZ player in starcraft for the past 3 years. Light has been the one player to go even vs soulkey in online play. They have no control over who they get in Round of 8 othrr than that it cant be someone from their own Ro16 group. In SSL1 SnOw is the way better player than Rain. Every single korean agrees Soulkey got the hardest bracket side in SSL1 Round of 8. Both Light and SnOw, the best two players right behind Soulkey himself. At this point not a single one of your arguments make sense anymore. You are creating your own headcanon using largely very old stats to support your arguments, and decide to ignore literally thousands of games played over 2021-2025. Yet you decide to include stats from 2017-2024 that are purely based on one single tournament format.
Except, Light didn't win. You are doing that yourself. Nothing you say sticks, if your statistics were true Soulkey would have lost vs Light - Light who lost a game vs Royal who couldn't qualify for the next season he won prior. PS: it's true though unlike ELO standings that weigh in ladder games that are not offline. We both know offline stats don't mix with online due to lag.
On February 04 2025 11:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: all toss players aspire to be like SnOw. Not bisu. Not Mini. SnOw is the king of toss right now. has been for the last two years. If SnOw isnt vs soulkey or soma he tends to win pvz.
I was going to quote this as a misnomer, but feared somebody would say this as if true. Yup, fake as the rest of the narrative. Snow sucks at pvz 44.3% win rate: https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=399s PS: he also has the lowest average win rate, doesn't even rank before Rain, Mini, Bisu. He is right above Best. In fact, his pvt is much higher than his pvz such that, had he played against sharp and rain played against Soulkey - both would play at their #1 matchup. https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=308s
go use eloboard for your information. If you want to use information to prove a point, then use all of the data, not just 1% of the data. SnOw is up on all zergs except soulkey and soma, and before 2024 he was up on Soulkey.
If that were the case, Soulkey would prefer to include sharp, or JYJ with his group. Why is that not consistent with what happened actually? I'm just trying to prove you are wrong and need to reassess from a zerg perspective that maybe your strengths and weaknesses are not what you protosses consider them to be. Otherwise, you were the champion. Let's face it - Soulkey outsmarted two protosses in the finals by using his wildcard and will continue to do so unless you wisen up. I just told you of a resource that coincides %100 with what I say and what happened in SSL. I have no further proof to prove my point. PS: this data is 1 years old, even before factoring in the 2025 results that you say Snow was up on Soulkey in 2024 which I say statistically not true on average PvZ results.
except that in SSL1 Soulkey put 3 terrans into his Round of 16 group, two of which Rush and JyJ, two very stronf tvz players.
ASL17? JyJ again. and Bisu who has the highest PvZ winrate.
Are you sure? Ro16 matches aren't final against a single opponent, Soulkey didn't have to win either of his elimination Ro16 matches. He could beat Sea and Rush and if JyJ didn't lose a match never face him again and continue. Whereas a Ro4 game with 7 game series is entirely different. Rain has %64 win rate in PvZ. Snow has 44% - Soulkey reverse sweeped, this I consider is why. However, had Snow faced Sharp, he would most likely win since he ranks #1 in PvT with %65.71 win rate, almost %66, which is also Rain's weakest matchup %51! One stone two birds. Protoss are still none the wiser...
Except Soulkey was placed vs Light. The best TvZ player in starcraft for the past 3 years. Light has been the one player to go even vs soulkey in online play. They have no control over who they get in Round of 8 othrr than that it cant be someone from their own Ro16 group. In SSL1 SnOw is the way better player than Rain. Every single korean agrees Soulkey got the hardest bracket side in SSL1 Round of 8. Both Light and SnOw, the best two players right behind Soulkey himself. At this point not a single one of your arguments make sense anymore. You are creating your own headcanon using largely very old stats to support your arguments, and decide to ignore literally thousands of games played over 2021-2025.
Except, Light didn't win. You are doing that yourself. Nothing you say sticks, if your statistics were true Soulkey would have lost vs Light - Light who lost a game vs Royal who couldn't qualify for the next season he won prior.
Light being the best TvZ player does by no means imply Soulkey should have lost. Your conclusion is not logical, it is a fallacious non sequitur. The consensus amongst all pros is that Light has the best TvZ. All pros agree SnOw is the best protoss. SnOw and Light were the HARDEST TWO opponents Soulkey could get and he got both of them. Them being the two most difficult opponents to beat does not mean Soulkey will lose, it just means Soulkey is really fkn good if he beats both of them. The Data from ELOBOARD support this notion.
Note: they all play on TR24 low in pro vs pro. they don't have lagg. TR24 low = Lan latency. It is the fastest possible latency setting in the game.
On February 04 2025 11:31 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: all toss players aspire to be like SnOw. Not bisu. Not Mini. SnOw is the king of toss right now. has been for the last two years. If SnOw isnt vs soulkey or soma he tends to win pvz.
I was going to quote this as a misnomer, but feared somebody would say this as if true. Yup, fake as the rest of the narrative. Snow sucks at pvz 44.3% win rate: https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=399s PS: he also has the lowest average win rate, doesn't even rank before Rain, Mini, Bisu. He is right above Best. In fact, his pvt is much higher than his pvz such that, had he played against sharp and rain played against Soulkey - both would play at their #1 matchup. https://youtu.be/watch?v=tMYcwoQkWQc&t=308s
go use eloboard for your information. If you want to use information to prove a point, then use all of the data, not just 1% of the data. SnOw is up on all zergs except soulkey and soma, and before 2024 he was up on Soulkey.
If that were the case, Soulkey would prefer to include sharp, or JYJ with his group. Why is that not consistent with what happened actually? I'm just trying to prove you are wrong and need to reassess from a zerg perspective that maybe your strengths and weaknesses are not what you protosses consider them to be. Otherwise, you were the champion. Let's face it - Soulkey outsmarted two protosses in the finals by using his wildcard and will continue to do so unless you wisen up. I just told you of a resource that coincides %100 with what I say and what happened in SSL. I have no further proof to prove my point. PS: this data is 1 years old, even before factoring in the 2025 results that you say Snow was up on Soulkey in 2024 which I say statistically not true on average PvZ results.
except that in SSL1 Soulkey put 3 terrans into his Round of 16 group, two of which Rush and JyJ, two very stronf tvz players.
ASL17? JyJ again. and Bisu who has the highest PvZ winrate.
Are you sure? Ro16 matches aren't final against a single opponent, Soulkey didn't have to win either of his elimination Ro16 matches. He could beat Sea and Rush and if JyJ didn't lose a match never face him again and continue. Whereas a Ro4 game with 7 game series is entirely different. Rain has %64 win rate in PvZ. Snow has 44% - Soulkey reverse sweeped, this I consider is why. However, had Snow faced Sharp, he would most likely win since he ranks #1 in PvT with %65.71 win rate, almost %66, which is also Rain's weakest matchup %51! One stone two birds. Protoss are still none the wiser...
Except Soulkey was placed vs Light. The best TvZ player in starcraft for the past 3 years. Light has been the one player to go even vs soulkey in online play. They have no control over who they get in Round of 8 othrr than that it cant be someone from their own Ro16 group. In SSL1 SnOw is the way better player than Rain. Every single korean agrees Soulkey got the hardest bracket side in SSL1 Round of 8. Both Light and SnOw, the best two players right behind Soulkey himself. At this point not a single one of your arguments make sense anymore. You are creating your own headcanon using largely very old stats to support your arguments, and decide to ignore literally thousands of games played over 2021-2025.
Except, Light didn't win. You are doing that yourself. Nothing you say sticks, if your statistics were true Soulkey would have lost vs Light - Light who lost a game vs Royal who couldn't qualify for the next season he won prior.
Light being the best TvZ player does by no means imply Soulkey should have lost. Your conclusion is not logical, it is a fallacious non sequitur. The consensus amongst all pros is that Light has the best TvZ. All pros agree SnOw is the best protoss. SnOw and Light were the HARDEST TWO opponents Soulkey could get and he got both of them. Them being the two most difficult opponents to beat does not mean Soulkey will lose, it just means Soulkey is really fkn good ifhe beats both of them. The Data from ELOBOARD support this notion.
Stop slipping in exceptions, you know damn well that is what it means. Those are non sequiturs, too. Fact is I don't have to argue my point. It is precisely as I stated. I'm trying to make you accept it. Of course, if Light were the best he would have won. After all, are you questioning Soulkey is the champion? Light isn't the best TvZ, that title belongs to Last in Flash's absence with 68% in TvZ. Light is 52%, a damn tossup.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/hXF9IXc.png)
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