Why protoss always underperforms on pro level? - Page 12

On February 01 2025 20:22 TornadoSteve wrote:
Protoss doesnt underperforms on pro level, protoss players do

On February 01 2025 14:02 Moopower wrote:
Protoss struggles in PvZ due to heavy tech commitments and limited flexibility compared to Zerg. Balancing this matchup could improve Protoss chances in tournaments. As a defensive race, Protoss needs to maximize gas efficiency, but losing key units like High Templars or Corsairs can quickly snowball into defeat—similar to Terran losing tanks in PvT. A muta switch can easily punish Protoss, forcing them to invest gas into Corsairs instead of High Templars or splash units, further compounding their disadvantage. It's not rocket science guys, if mutas are more flexible in utility of either harassing and being useful as actual fighting the main army, Zerg has a better more efficient toolkit, while protoss are forced to make a bad unit like sairs that are only good for defending or harassing air units which can put you behind if zerg doesn't commit to air superiority and hydras come knocking.

Hydras are too cost-efficient against Protoss, especially with upgrades. Their speed and range allow them to kite zealots and easily break defenses like cannons. Increasing hydra upgrade timings would give Protoss more time to develop storm and respond properly. This change wouldn’t affect TvZ but would reduce hydra dominance without forcing Protoss into risky "perfect defense" scenarios.

Protoss also suffers economically during early hydra pushes. They’re forced to overcommit to defense, pulling probes, losing forges, and gateways while Zerg can quickly re-drone without major risks. Even if Protoss defends, they often fall behind due to Zerg’s tech flexibility (muta, lurker, etc.), requiring gas-heavy investments like Corsairs, Robotics, and Observers. When is there a good timing window for protoss to do anything at all to Zerg when they are in the control seat all game? Hydra bust failed? No problem for zerg, they'll just switch to lurker contain, better get your obs quickly while also building up your gateway count while you had to spend so much on cannons, losing probes and forge/gateway buildings.

A solution could be making Corsairs cheaper on gas (e.g., 50 gas) and slightly more expensive in minerals to maintain balance. Faster build times would also help manage sudden muta switches. This adjustment wouldn’t affect PvT since Corsairs aren’t used there.

As for Dark Archons, starting with Maelstrom pre-upgraded and lowering its energy cost to 60 would provide a stronger counter to muta harassment. Currently, Corsairs are vulnerable to scourge and muta combos, making them difficult to micro effectively. These changes would ease Protoss’s gas constraints, improve early game defense, and make the matchup less punishing.

On February 02 2025 03:48 SiarX wrote:

It cannot be that all protoss players are that bad compared to terran and zerg players. It is statistically impossible.

On February 01 2025 14:02 Moopower wrote:
Protoss struggles in PvZ due to heavy tech commitments and limited flexibility compared to Zerg. Balancing this matchup could improve Protoss chances in tournaments. As a defensive race, Protoss needs to maximize gas efficiency, but losing key units like High Templars or Corsairs can quickly snowball into defeat—similar to Terran losing tanks in PvT. A muta switch can easily punish Protoss, forcing them to invest gas into Corsairs instead of High Templars or splash units, further compounding their disadvantage. It's not rocket science guys, if mutas are more flexible in utility of either harassing and being useful as actual fighting the main army, Zerg has a better more efficient toolkit, while protoss are forced to make a bad unit like sairs that are only good for defending or harassing air units which can put you behind if zerg doesn't commit to air superiority and hydras come knocking.

Hydras are too cost-efficient against Protoss, especially with upgrades. Their speed and range allow them to kite zealots and easily break defenses like cannons. Increasing hydra upgrade timings would give Protoss more time to develop storm and respond properly. This change wouldn’t affect TvZ but would reduce hydra dominance without forcing Protoss into risky "perfect defense" scenarios.

Protoss also suffers economically during early hydra pushes. They’re forced to overcommit to defense, pulling probes, losing forges, and gateways while Zerg can quickly re-drone without major risks. Even if Protoss defends, they often fall behind due to Zerg’s tech flexibility (muta, lurker, etc.), requiring gas-heavy investments like Corsairs, Robotics, and Observers. When is there a good timing window for protoss to do anything at all to Zerg when they are in the control seat all game? Hydra bust failed? No problem for zerg, they'll just switch to lurker contain, better get your obs quickly while also building up your gateway count while you had to spend so much on cannons, losing probes and forge/gateway buildings.

A solution could be making Corsairs cheaper on gas (e.g., 50 gas) and slightly more expensive in minerals to maintain balance. Faster build times would also help manage sudden muta switches. This adjustment wouldn’t affect PvT since Corsairs aren’t used there.

As for Dark Archons, starting with Maelstrom pre-upgraded and lowering its energy cost to 60 would provide a stronger counter to muta harassment. Currently, Corsairs are vulnerable to scourge and muta combos, making them difficult to micro effectively. These changes would ease Protoss’s gas constraints, improve early game defense, and make the matchup less punishing.

On January 29 2025 02:12 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
biggest population is no longer relevant with the current pro-climate being rather exclusionary. You got to either have money, or have viewers who have money to build connections vs other pros and get games in vs pros. There are a bunch of protoss players just outside of that sphere who lack viewers and money to get consistent access to games vs pros. the toss pros currently within the group are largely on the lower end of the talent pool, and there are some super talented players just outside of it. think of nOOB, tyson, ysc, ruin, mighty, motive, noble, pusan, Movie, Free, paralyze and promise. While players like Rich, ssinz, parkhanbyul are more often excluded but might with more inclusion ascend above the others. We won't know until they get their fair share of time within the group. I had very high expectations of Ruin, Paralyze and Motive but they are struggling to ascend above the others in their tier of skill.

I used to consider Ruin the protoss counter part of Speed back in 2020-2023. But where Speed managed to grow significantly I feel like Ruin stagnated. I an also considered Beast their counterpart but Beast has clear limitations in his play and isnt consistently active.

On February 02 2025 03:48 SiarX wrote:



It cannot be that all protoss players are that bad compared to terran and zerg players. It is statistically impossible.

On February 02 2025 06:01 mtcn77 wrote:

This is false on the premise that zerg is cheaper. To the contrary, zerg is more expensive.
1. Hatcheries are more expensive than gateways,
2. Overlords take time away from hatcheries to spawn overlords which pause droning every 9th time,
3. Protoss expansions are 50 minerals cheaper than zerg expansions since you don't have to invest a drone and make an overlord investment to control 9 probes like zerg does.
Protoss should play more 9 gate and 2gate, otherwise hands the zerg the whole midgame. If you checked the AI statistics midgame is where protoss has a definite win spike which should not be taken for granted. You need to fight for map control.
Mutalisks don't arrive sooner than 6 minutes. If you haven't made anything happen up until then, why don't you just quit.
PS: I ran the numbers. I couldn't find a suitable point in time when the split to the natural saves time and money since probes take 20 seconds to traverse to the natural. It only evens out when you can transfer under 10 seconds. In this case, only zerg nydus canals, protoss fast shuttles and recalls can meet this goal.

On February 02 2025 07:29 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
You protoss fans are funny as fck trying to rewrite history with this fake narratives.

What SC history shows is that there has been few individuals that dominated this Scene over everyone. Not just protoss but everyone. There is just not every terran or every zerg dominating. But a very few individuals. This also happened with Protoss in Bisu hands. If Bisu sneaked an OSL we will be talking about a protoss Bonjwa too.

The last Two OSLs were also won by Jangbi Beating Fantasy in the prime of his Terran career.

Boxer Iloveoov Nada Flash Jaedong Savior Julyzerg Bisu Jangbi.

We are talking about out of the box people here.

Bisu and Jangbi Showed how possible it is to excell at any matchup.

As sad as it is Snow never been that guy. As sad as it is Mini also never been that guy ( even if he has or had the potential cuz the guy is truly insane ) But he is super volatile. We either destroying anyone then next we droping to sSak.

Rain could have been that guy too but he is not interested it seems.

I mean shit Shuttle won a freaking ASL..

Isnt snow and mini bisu also dominating everyone but SK these days ?

But well keep pushing it. There is not freaking way any Protoss tell a terran that P v T is a difficult matchup When do you have carriers reavers hts dark templars zealot speed..

There is a lack of championships for protoss. Yeah but Protoss still made it to the finals. Protoss still had to beat zerg and protoss on his way to the finals. You didnt manage to win the final. Shit pressure got you. Thats unfortunate.

Now you come with big eggs to tell me that Movie lose to Flash in the OSL final cuz his race is weak. And not cuz the other guy is a freaking godlike sc player that perfected shit so much and gave away his hand to reach that level ?

Like respectfully..

On February 02 2025 07:19 TornadoSteve wrote:


What do you mean, statistically impossible ?!
The sample is not millions, its like 7. In which there is players such as Best, and Mini.

On February 03 2025 08:19 Qikz wrote:
Protoss have always historically been better in team tournaments compared to solo tournaments outside of very few players like Bisu, Jangbi and Stork. The issue in solo tournaments is that the best protoss players often have 2 amazing matchups and one really bad matchup (often PvZ) and if they get unlucky they get knocked out early by their bad matchup. In team tournaments it's more likely with strategy they avoid it and that's how you get the Six Dragons/Legend of the Fall from Proleague history.

What also doesn't help is historically there are a lot of insanely good ZvP specialists and very few PvZ specialists. I'd love to see how many protoss players have been knocked out by a Zerg overall historically, I imagine it's a lot higher than protoss knockouts from PvT (just because a lot more protosses were PvT specialists in comparison)

On February 03 2025 08:19 Qikz wrote:
Protoss have always historically been better in team tournaments compared to solo tournaments outside of very few players like Bisu, Jangbi and Stork. The issue in solo tournaments is that the best protoss players often have 2 amazing matchups and one really bad matchup (often PvZ) and if they get unlucky they get knocked out early by their bad matchup. In team tournaments it's more likely with strategy they avoid it and that's how you get the Six Dragons/Legend of the Fall from Proleague history.

What also doesn't help is historically there are a lot of insanely good ZvP specialists and very few PvZ specialists. I'd love to see how many protoss players have been knocked out by a Zerg overall historically, I imagine it's a lot higher than protoss knockouts from PvT (just because a lot more protosses were PvT specialists in comparison)