On January 23 2025 03:06 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: best mechanics = best player argument can be entirely refuted by looking at Hyuk and Soulkey. Soulkey's raw mechanics are worse than Hyuk's. Hyuk has maybe the best zerg mechanics. But his decision making and how he overspends on the wrong units at the wrong time costs him so many games. Soulkey is largely the smartest player, but by no means mechanically better than his peers.
Yes sir. People need to stop equating apm with decision making. I literally see it all the time. Just watched XiaoGeGe vs ArtUser at CNSL7. WHY would you front the attack with your dragoons and attack the hatchery with your zealots?! Protoss players have themselves to blame. Fix your own lawn before badmouthing the municipality. You guys don't know how to play ceasar 3 or warcraft 3. I couldn't find any other example to demonstrate. There is a point in the game when numbers stop mattering anymore and what matters is the initiative. You protoss players make cannons and literally throw dragoons in the midst of the enemy frontal charge meatshielding zealots! Damn losers got to say protoss sucks. How about no? Please, if you are going to question my zerg bias can you please find some perspective yourself? There are countless errors in your games. All I do is praise Mini and Bisu who himself doesn't know 6 mini expansions mine more than 4. It is just basic arithmetic folks, you don't need my zerg fact checking to verify... Like for instance why not to make cannons: protoss is the most mineral dependent army in the game. I counted until 8:30 minutes in the Paralyze vs Beast game that Artosis recently cast protoss just made 2 bases. Suppose 1 minute the protoss makes 5 probes, in the second minute starts the natural nexus and the third fills them up to 9 probes and 3 more harvesting vespene geyser. Rechecked: second nexus done by 171 seconds, right on time if you discount the travel distance. At 8:30 it is likely to have harvested 9844 minerals and 3210 vespene gas from two 17/3 bases. From two 9/3 bases that number is 7468 minerals and 3210 gas. However, it takes 1000 more minerals to supply 40 probes instead of just 24 probes. All told, two bases with 17/3 probes cost 2700 minerals leaving 7144 minerals while two bases with 9/3 probes cost 1700 leaving 5768 minerals. You have just spent 1000 more minerals, cost yourself 16 supply in order to mine 24% more eventhough spending 38% more time probing. There is no way you need 3210 gas apart from making 9 archons at that point. Everything is mineral based. Even with 4 gateways you cannot mine enough to maximise 3210 gas. I checked again and edited the entire upper section. Nonstop probing from two nexuses cost 480 a minute - literally burning away what you gain from your expansion. It takes 8 probes just to mine that much every minute(almost an expansion) and there is diminishing returns on higher probe densities(even worse tradeoff). It only starts paying off when you stop probing - you are literally bankrupting your entire early game. That is what I'm trying to say when I say your early game is not OK. PS: also Soulkey is where he is at because he was the macro zerg. Just listen to Tasteless describe his solid and steady learning curve. He got to where he is because he wouldn't change his play style and cheese.
Jesus christ this is like E rank levels of analysis. You make more probes so that you can afford more gateways. Please explain how you're going to afford 8 gateway production after 8:30 while sitting on 18 probes total? Just play the game a bit more, learn a bit more, and maybe you'll hit C rank one day.
I made a mistake by mistaking 14scv reference as 750 minerals per minute instead of 700 from the ideal mining thoughts thread. I'm trying to restart the calculation from the beginning. That totally skews my numbers, second nexus pops up at 193 seconds, not 171 - that is at 20. I cannot select the time to split for a better economy. I need data on probe travel time between the main and natural. By the time second nexus operates at 20 supply mark, you are already making 900 minerals per minute from a single base. Losing time to make 1060 from two bases don't seem like a good trade; however it takes 126 seconds to train 9 probes - it cannot be worse than that.
you're right, all the pros have never tried to cut more probes from their build ever. You've discovered the secret! You should switch to protoss to show all these bad pros how to do it
On January 23 2025 03:06 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: best mechanics = best player argument can be entirely refuted by looking at Hyuk and Soulkey. Soulkey's raw mechanics are worse than Hyuk's. Hyuk has maybe the best zerg mechanics. But his decision making and how he overspends on the wrong units at the wrong time costs him so many games. Soulkey is largely the smartest player, but by no means mechanically better than his peers.
Yes sir. People need to stop equating apm with decision making. I literally see it all the time. Just watched XiaoGeGe vs ArtUser at CNSL7. WHY would you front the attack with your dragoons and attack the hatchery with your zealots?! Protoss players have themselves to blame. Fix your own lawn before badmouthing the municipality. You guys don't know how to play ceasar 3 or warcraft 3. I couldn't find any other example to demonstrate. There is a point in the game when numbers stop mattering anymore and what matters is the initiative. You protoss players make cannons and literally throw dragoons in the midst of the enemy frontal charge meatshielding zealots! Damn losers got to say protoss sucks. How about no? Please, if you are going to question my zerg bias can you please find some perspective yourself? There are countless errors in your games. All I do is praise Mini and Bisu who himself doesn't know 6 mini expansions mine more than 4. It is just basic arithmetic folks, you don't need my zerg fact checking to verify... Like for instance why not to make cannons: protoss is the most mineral dependent army in the game. I counted until 8:30 minutes in the Paralyze vs Beast game that Artosis recently cast protoss just made 2 bases. Suppose 1 minute the protoss makes 5 probes, in the second minute starts the natural nexus and the third fills them up to 9 probes and 3 more harvesting vespene geyser. Rechecked: second nexus done by 171 seconds, right on time if you discount the travel distance. At 8:30 it is likely to have harvested 9844 minerals and 3210 vespene gas from two 17/3 bases. From two 9/3 bases that number is 7468 minerals and 3210 gas. However, it takes 1000 more minerals to supply 40 probes instead of just 24 probes. All told, two bases with 17/3 probes cost 2700 minerals leaving 7144 minerals while two bases with 9/3 probes cost 1700 leaving 5768 minerals. You have just spent 1000 more minerals, cost yourself 16 supply in order to mine 24% more eventhough spending 38% more time probing. There is no way you need 3210 gas apart from making 9 archons at that point. Everything is mineral based. Even with 4 gateways you cannot mine enough to maximise 3210 gas. I checked again and edited the entire upper section. Nonstop probing from two nexuses cost 480 a minute - literally burning away what you gain from your expansion. It takes 8 probes just to mine that much every minute(almost an expansion) and there is diminishing returns on higher probe densities(even worse tradeoff). It only starts paying off when you stop probing - you are literally bankrupting your entire early game. That is what I'm trying to say when I say your early game is not OK. PS: also Soulkey is where he is at because he was the macro zerg. Just listen to Tasteless describe his solid and steady learning curve. He got to where he is because he wouldn't change his play style and cheese.
Jesus christ this is like E rank levels of analysis. You make more probes so that you can afford more gateways. Please explain how you're going to afford 8 gateway production after 8:30 while sitting on 18 probes total? Just play the game a bit more, learn a bit more, and maybe you'll hit C rank one day.
1062 minerals a minute grants you 3.71 gateways warping dragoons, or 3.56 gateways making zealots. I see your point, however that was a reference from the Paralyse vs Beast game to demonstrate a low economy game that really took off, not what I advise. I don't think I have ever made the argument making probes from a single base is how you can last against the zerg. You just quoted me saying everything is mineral heavy for the protoss. If two 9/3 bases don't cut it, that means you need six - not four 17/3 probe bases. That is my understanding. However if you are going to play defensively, even at two bases you have a lot of resources to make whatever you want. You might say hydralisks beat archons. Let me think about that. I need to watch some 9734 to see if you really can stuff 9 archons into the mix.
On January 24 2025 16:04 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: I have seen shuttle, Mini and Snow all try to utiluze hallucinations vs terran multiple times. Hallucinations to tank shots from tanks to engage on large terran armies. It didnt work a single time because you ultimately do zero damage with the hallu units plus they end up blocking your own units. Hallu however was effective in escorting shuttle drops through turret lines to get storms off on scvs. Or to misdirect with fake arbiters. Also seen it used to fake out carrier movement by sending fake carriers through vision, and the real ones elsewhere. But that was one single time and it didnt make a difference lol.
It worked this time though:
My favorite Protoss moment last year =) but yeah it's extremely rare case.
That was awesome! Never seen this before. Thanks for sharing.
I think it's key to get the right number of clones, and maneuver them in a way so that they don't interfere with your units. Double damage is bad, but you get 2 clones, so you can still take a lot of damage. Interesting way to break into a high ground. Shuttle made a lot of zealot and archon clones, best units as they are the most tanky. Turning a shuttle into 3 is really good too.
I mean, when there's shit like hold lurkers in the game, why not this? I mean, we're talking about psionic powers here. Wtf is a high templar changing to another being like? Maybe its merely the power of the spirit that is needed to cause an evolution. Hallucinations are powerful enough that you cannot distinguish them from reality. Lorewise, high templars are considered the most deeply immersed in psionic power and the second highest unit in the game (the only thing higher being that which comes from HT, the archon.)
On January 25 2025 07:32 TMNT wrote: BW is a fun community. Once in a while you have some random guy popping up with a new idea/build and claiming pros should take note.
The Dunning Kruger effect couldn't apply better anywhere else.
Just watched the Bisu vs Jaedong game. Bisu started the nexus at 3:45, I measured the fastest time can be 1:36 and finished at 3:13. You might consider this fool's errand, but pros benchmark their builds. I just don't see the same from the protoss community. Otherwise there would be more discussion. Flash changes the meta, nobody claims he is wrong, but what protoss players play is so wildly different than Bisu and Mini, even zerg players like myself have to chime in. For your information, Bisu didn't make FE in that game. It was a gateway first.
On January 25 2025 07:32 TMNT wrote: BW is a fun community. Once in a while you have some random guy popping up with a new idea/build and claiming pros should take note.
The Dunning Kruger effect couldn't apply better anywhere else.
Just watched the Bisu vs Jaedong game. Bisu started the nexus at 3:45, I measured the fastest time can be 1:36 and finished at 3:13. You might consider this fool's errand, but pros benchmark their builds. I just don't see the same from the protoss community. Otherwise there would be more discussion. Flash changes the meta, nobody claims he is wrong, but what protoss players play is so wildly different than Bisu and Mini, even zerg players like myself have to chime in. For your information, Bisu didn't make FE in that game. It was a gateway first. https://youtu.be/sF-qFkMRQ3M?si=Tu2Tq_SBECY3L88B
Not a good example for gateway expand nexus timing as Bisu made 3 zealots before nexus because of 9 pool open. 2 zealot expand is the standard. What is your build order for 1:36 nexus timing?
I didn't read mtcn77's previous posts in this thread. Just skimmed through and saw something about 2 Gate vs Z and laughed. But now I read a bit more and he literally suggests building the Nexus at natural after 9 Probe. I guess that's the 1:36 Nexus timing.
Yep you heard it right. 12 Nexus is outdated, Artosis. Now 9 Nexus is your new worry.
Uhm, but... what happens when 6 lings run into your base at around 3th min then....?
On January 26 2025 06:01 TMNT wrote: I didn't read mtcn77's previous posts in this thread. Just skimmed through and saw something about 2 Gate vs Z and laughed. But now I read a bit more and he literally suggests building the Nexus at natural after 9 Probe. I guess that's the 1:36 Nexus timing.
Yep you heard it right. 12 Nexus is outdated, Artosis. Now 9 Nexus is your new worry.
Uhm, but... what happens when 6 lings run into your base at around 3th min then....?
9 Nexus is at like 1:22, 11 nexus is 1:40 or so. No idea what this new 1:36 nexus is lol. Can't wait to see his build order for it!
On January 25 2025 07:32 TMNT wrote: BW is a fun community. Once in a while you have some random guy popping up with a new idea/build and claiming pros should take note.
The Dunning Kruger effect couldn't apply better anywhere else.
Just watched the Bisu vs Jaedong game. Bisu started the nexus at 3:45, I measured the fastest time can be 1:36 and finished at 3:13. You might consider this fool's errand, but pros benchmark their builds. I just don't see the same from the protoss community. Otherwise there would be more discussion. Flash changes the meta, nobody claims he is wrong, but what protoss players play is so wildly different than Bisu and Mini, even zerg players like myself have to chime in. For your information, Bisu didn't make FE in that game. It was a gateway first. https://youtu.be/sF-qFkMRQ3M?si=Tu2Tq_SBECY3L88B
Not a good example for gateway expand nexus timing as Bisu made 3 zealots before nexus because of 9 pool open. 2 zealot expand is the standard. What is your build order for 1:36 nexus timing?
I was just testing the waters for FE timing. Just make probes. 9 pylon(it should be before that, 152 minerals left over, I just check if there is necessary minerals from ideal mining thoughts thread). Nexus at 14. Clearly, that is not what worries Bisu. He is not fast expanding as I count Nexus ready at 20 while Bisu was at 17 when he started the Nexus at 3:45 indicating he was neither fast expanding, nor worrying about probing. Seeing how he wasn't even worried about the gaping hole in front of the natural, I think either Bisu wasn't intimidated by zerg, or he was trying to bait out more zerglings from Jaedong. In the end, it ends up in his favour. Perhaps, Bisu can make gateway+forge after all, but the key message is, like you said, the three zealots before everything else. Protoss needs map control to pace the game. And you might want to check how many bases Bisu had at the end, maybe I was correct at setting such a high benchmark. PS: I think I made a mistake Nexus at 14 is 2:06, not 1:36.
On January 26 2025 06:01 TMNT wrote: I didn't read mtcn77's previous posts in this thread. Just skimmed through and saw something about 2 Gate vs Z and laughed. But now I read a bit more and he literally suggests building the Nexus at natural after 9 Probe. I guess that's the 1:36 Nexus timing.
Yep you heard it right. 12 Nexus is outdated, Artosis. Now 9 Nexus is your new worry.
Uhm, but... what happens when 6 lings run into your base at around 3th min then....?
9 Nexus is at like 1:22, 11 nexus is 1:40 or so. No idea what this new 1:36 nexus is lol. Can't wait to see his build order for it!
That is not his game time. That is what I suppose normal FE timing is from ideal mining thoughts thread.
On January 26 2025 06:01 TMNT wrote: I didn't read mtcn77's previous posts in this thread. Just skimmed through and saw something about 2 Gate vs Z and laughed. But now I read a bit more and he literally suggests building the Nexus at natural after 9 Probe. I guess that's the 1:36 Nexus timing.
Yep you heard it right. 12 Nexus is outdated, Artosis. Now 9 Nexus is your new worry.
Uhm, but... what happens when 6 lings run into your base at around 3th min then....?
9 Nexus is at like 1:22, 11 nexus is 1:40 or so. No idea what this new 1:36 nexus is lol. Can't wait to see his build order for it!
That is not his game time. That is what I suppose normal FE timing is from ideal mining thoughts thread.
So... what is your build order for 1:36 nexus? 9 pylon 14 nexus? Not a build and not possible to get 14 nexus at 1:36. With nexus first, literally only 11 or 12 nexus is viable. 11 nexus = 1:40, 12 nexus = 1:46
On January 26 2025 06:01 TMNT wrote: I didn't read mtcn77's previous posts in this thread. Just skimmed through and saw something about 2 Gate vs Z and laughed. But now I read a bit more and he literally suggests building the Nexus at natural after 9 Probe. I guess that's the 1:36 Nexus timing.
Yep you heard it right. 12 Nexus is outdated, Artosis. Now 9 Nexus is your new worry.
Uhm, but... what happens when 6 lings run into your base at around 3th min then....?
9 Nexus is at like 1:22, 11 nexus is 1:40 or so. No idea what this new 1:36 nexus is lol. Can't wait to see his build order for it!
That is not his game time. That is what I suppose normal FE timing is from ideal mining thoughts thread.
So... what is your build order for 1:36 nexus? 9 pylon 14 nexus? Not a build and not possible to get 14 nexus at 1:36. With nexus first, literally only 11 or 12 nexus is viable. 11 nexus = 1:40, 12 nexus = 1:46
I quoted the old wrong calculation again from stuck memory. I told a couple posts back that I misquoted 750 instead of 700 for 14 scvs from the ideal mining thoughts thread, that is where 1:36 comes from, it really is 2:06; however I still didn't take acceleration. It should be later. It was to study whether FE is viable against 2gate or some other strategy. The nexus came out so late - at 20 - you only make 3 probes from the new nexus. Also there is no defence. As I said, I cannot think Nexus first working out, I'm just trying to run the numbers rather than make it work. PS: if you notice nexus started at 1:36 does not finish at 3:13. 2:06 nexus finishes at 3:21.
On January 26 2025 06:01 TMNT wrote: I didn't read mtcn77's previous posts in this thread. Just skimmed through and saw something about 2 Gate vs Z and laughed. But now I read a bit more and he literally suggests building the Nexus at natural after 9 Probe. I guess that's the 1:36 Nexus timing.
Yep you heard it right. 12 Nexus is outdated, Artosis. Now 9 Nexus is your new worry.
Uhm, but... what happens when 6 lings run into your base at around 3th min then....?
9 Nexus is at like 1:22, 11 nexus is 1:40 or so. No idea what this new 1:36 nexus is lol. Can't wait to see his build order for it!
That is not his game time. That is what I suppose normal FE timing is from ideal mining thoughts thread.
So... what is your build order for 1:36 nexus? 9 pylon 14 nexus? Not a build and not possible to get 14 nexus at 1:36. With nexus first, literally only 11 or 12 nexus is viable. 11 nexus = 1:40, 12 nexus = 1:46
I quoted the old wrong calculation again from stuck memory. I told a couple posts back that I misquoted 750 instead of 700 for 14 scvs from the ideal mining thoughts thread, that is where 1:36 comes from, it really is 2:06; however I still didn't take acceleration. It should be later. It was to study whether FE is viable against 2gate or some other strategy. The nexus came out so late - at 20 - you only make 3 probes from the new nexus. Also there is no defence. As I said, I cannot think Nexus first working out, I'm just trying to run the numbers rather than make it work.
On January 26 2025 06:01 TMNT wrote: I didn't read mtcn77's previous posts in this thread. Just skimmed through and saw something about 2 Gate vs Z and laughed. But now I read a bit more and he literally suggests building the Nexus at natural after 9 Probe. I guess that's the 1:36 Nexus timing.
Yep you heard it right. 12 Nexus is outdated, Artosis. Now 9 Nexus is your new worry.
Uhm, but... what happens when 6 lings run into your base at around 3th min then....?
9 Nexus is at like 1:22, 11 nexus is 1:40 or so. No idea what this new 1:36 nexus is lol. Can't wait to see his build order for it!
That is not his game time. That is what I suppose normal FE timing is from ideal mining thoughts thread.
So... what is your build order for 1:36 nexus? 9 pylon 14 nexus? Not a build and not possible to get 14 nexus at 1:36. With nexus first, literally only 11 or 12 nexus is viable. 11 nexus = 1:40, 12 nexus = 1:46
I quoted the old wrong calculation again from stuck memory. I told a couple posts back that I misquoted 750 instead of 700 for 14 scvs from the ideal mining thoughts thread, that is where 1:36 comes from, it really is 2:06; however I still didn't take acceleration. It should be later. It was to study whether FE is viable against 2gate or some other strategy. The nexus came out so late - at 20 - you only make 3 probes from the new nexus. Also there is no defence. As I said, I cannot think Nexus first working out, I'm just trying to run the numbers rather than make it work.
2:06 is a not a nexus first timing.
That is what it should be if you probe nonstop. I'm also lost on the idea, but we are checking how fast the limit is for protoss economy. Obviously not so fast. The main benefit comes from new expansions like I said after all. 75 probes from 3 bases have just enough mining as 54 probes from six bases. That also costs more 1350 minerals not to expand to those six bases and sitting at three. Zerg will have a field day if you do that to your economy. You know how much 1350 minerals can change the tide of the game?
On January 26 2025 06:01 TMNT wrote: I didn't read mtcn77's previous posts in this thread. Just skimmed through and saw something about 2 Gate vs Z and laughed. But now I read a bit more and he literally suggests building the Nexus at natural after 9 Probe. I guess that's the 1:36 Nexus timing.
Yep you heard it right. 12 Nexus is outdated, Artosis. Now 9 Nexus is your new worry.
Uhm, but... what happens when 6 lings run into your base at around 3th min then....?
9 Nexus is at like 1:22, 11 nexus is 1:40 or so. No idea what this new 1:36 nexus is lol. Can't wait to see his build order for it!
That is not his game time. That is what I suppose normal FE timing is from ideal mining thoughts thread.
So... what is your build order for 1:36 nexus? 9 pylon 14 nexus? Not a build and not possible to get 14 nexus at 1:36. With nexus first, literally only 11 or 12 nexus is viable. 11 nexus = 1:40, 12 nexus = 1:46
I quoted the old wrong calculation again from stuck memory. I told a couple posts back that I misquoted 750 instead of 700 for 14 scvs from the ideal mining thoughts thread, that is where 1:36 comes from, it really is 2:06; however I still didn't take acceleration. It should be later. It was to study whether FE is viable against 2gate or some other strategy. The nexus came out so late - at 20 - you only make 3 probes from the new nexus. Also there is no defence. As I said, I cannot think Nexus first working out, I'm just trying to run the numbers rather than make it work.
2:06 is a not a nexus first timing.
That is what it should be if you probe nonstop. I'm also lost on the idea, but we are checking how fast the limit is for protoss economy. Obviously not so fast. The main benefit comes from new expansions like I said after all. 75 probes from 3 bases have just enough mining as 54 probes from six bases. That also costs more 1350 minerals not to expand to those six bases and sitting at three. Zerg will have a field day if you do that to your economy. You know how much 1350 minerals can change the tide of the game?
Only 11 nexus and 12 nexus is viable in PvZ. 14 nexus is NOT a build order. Even forge first, nexus before cannon is 13 nexus.
On January 26 2025 06:01 TMNT wrote: I didn't read mtcn77's previous posts in this thread. Just skimmed through and saw something about 2 Gate vs Z and laughed. But now I read a bit more and he literally suggests building the Nexus at natural after 9 Probe. I guess that's the 1:36 Nexus timing.
Yep you heard it right. 12 Nexus is outdated, Artosis. Now 9 Nexus is your new worry.
Uhm, but... what happens when 6 lings run into your base at around 3th min then....?
9 Nexus is at like 1:22, 11 nexus is 1:40 or so. No idea what this new 1:36 nexus is lol. Can't wait to see his build order for it!
That is not his game time. That is what I suppose normal FE timing is from ideal mining thoughts thread.
So... what is your build order for 1:36 nexus? 9 pylon 14 nexus? Not a build and not possible to get 14 nexus at 1:36. With nexus first, literally only 11 or 12 nexus is viable. 11 nexus = 1:40, 12 nexus = 1:46
I quoted the old wrong calculation again from stuck memory. I told a couple posts back that I misquoted 750 instead of 700 for 14 scvs from the ideal mining thoughts thread, that is where 1:36 comes from, it really is 2:06; however I still didn't take acceleration. It should be later. It was to study whether FE is viable against 2gate or some other strategy. The nexus came out so late - at 20 - you only make 3 probes from the new nexus. Also there is no defence. As I said, I cannot think Nexus first working out, I'm just trying to run the numbers rather than make it work.
2:06 is a not a nexus first timing.
That is what it should be if you probe nonstop. I'm also lost on the idea, but we are checking how fast the limit is for protoss economy. Obviously not so fast. The main benefit comes from new expansions like I said after all. 75 probes from 3 bases have just enough mining as 54 probes from six bases. That also costs more 1350 minerals not to expand to those six bases and sitting at three. Zerg will have a field day if you do that to your economy. You know how much 1350 minerals can change the tide of the game?
I give up. Try these timings yourself instead of theorycrafting.
Bro don't be a number guy. The audio world is full of you and those guys are insufferable. Numbers don't get the big picture. You are coming up with total costs and taking them out of in game context. It's like comparing images in two different photographs, and trying to argue they should be switched. Doesn't make sense. Your numbers are not even right anyway, you keep saying Bisu got his nexus at 3:45, but I watched the game and he got it at ~2:55. The way he opened is pretty ideal, if you hope to have a standing army, tech fast, and establish map control, things which you say are good. Going nexus first is just not worth it because you will die to pool first builds, or need to make cannons early, which is not meta anymore. The tempo of the game is so tight right now that any wasted minerals for Protoss in the beginning is basically gg.
You know, calling it half-prized is not a fair assessment. It's not just giving up half the templars you normally need, but the opportunity cost of storm as well. 100 energy for 2 archons for 2 templars, or 75 energy for a massive damage storm?
EPT
