EPTWhy protoss always underperforms on pro level? - Page 9
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands577 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4678 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4678 Posts
On January 23 2025 03:06 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: best mechanics = best player argument can be entirely refuted by looking at Hyuk and Soulkey. Soulkey's raw mechanics are worse than Hyuk's. Hyuk has maybe the best zerg mechanics. But his decision making and how he overspends on the wrong units at the wrong time costs him so many games. Soulkey is largely the smartest player, but by no means mechanically better than his peers. I get what you're saying, but can we call dumb button bashing mechanics? I would not be surprised if Soulkey can/could button press like Hyuk, because Soulkey still needs to execute fast to hit all his timings. Button bashing can only make you king when you have an overabundance of resources. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands577 Posts
On January 23 2025 03:45 Peeano wrote: I get what you're saying, but can we call dumb button bashing mechanics? I would not be surprised if Soulkey can/could button press like Hyuk, because Soulkey still needs to execute fast to hit all his timings. Button bashing can only make you king when you have an overabundance of resources. thing about Hyuk is he button mashes absolute perfect sequences without mistakes. In fact no other player can do it quite like him. He is legitimately a freak with the accuracy and precision of his actions. But the way he utilizes it is simplistic without advanced thought put into it. Soulkey was for a long time consideres inferior to others because his ZvZ exposed his inferior mechanics. Soulkey is very brain heavy in his play. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10022 Posts
On January 23 2025 03:06 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: best mechanics = best player argument can be entirely refuted by looking at Hyuk and Soulkey. Soulkey's raw mechanics are worse than Hyuk's. Hyuk has maybe the best zerg mechanics. But his decision making and how he overspends on the wrong units at the wrong time costs him so many games. Soulkey is largely the smartest player, but by no means mechanically better than his peers. I think this is always a trend where the smartest players, not the most mechanical, are the ones who dominate. Flash was not a mechanical genius like Fantasy, but was the smartest player (maybe ever) especially when you look back at his economic cheeses and knowing exactly how many SCVs to pull to defend aggression and maintain his superior economy. Savior was one of the slowest zergs, yet became bonjwa on shit ZvT maps because he was just so much smarter than everyone else. Stork at peak of his powers was also known as someone who would never lose a game if both players had map hack because of how smart he was. Soulkey right now is the smartest player imo, he rarely ever makes a wrong decision. | ||
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QRCode
United States22 Posts
Yeah, it's hard to trade with goons on high ground because of their range. But you can say that for any unit that outranges yours. But you cannot deny the fact that goons actually throwing a shot is not a good thing. Have you seen the mods where goon's shots hit instantly like marines and hydras? They are so much better, broken actually. The balance has gone the other way making the goon have a traveling ranged attack. Hitscan >>> traveling projectile. A comparable group of marines and hydras would just a-move and basically accomplish the same thing Bisu had to micro and multitask his ass off to do in that clip. When you have the opportunity with the proper level of control, goons can be very effective. But players can only really do that in the early game or small skirmishes. Judging by recent games, I think pros are starting to think it's best to end games as early as possible, when the opportunity to maximize your units like this is still there. When the game develops and more numbers and tasks are involved, goons do not scale well. | ||
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ruhtraeel
Canada102 Posts
Like if it's vs beast or ZeLoT, I'd pick Bisu, Snow, Mini and Rain over Best But if it's against Soulkey, I might actually pick Best | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1201 Posts
1) Tank enemies fire and allow the real arbiter to recal on an island or heavily AA defended base/location. 2) Trick opponent into thinking you are going a certain techtree while you are going a different one. Z can switch very fast so not particular useful vs this race. None of the 2 above are game changing. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1585 Posts
Hallucination does have a use in PvT. When P goes arb and plans to recall but Terran turtles and over defends with turrets and there's literally no way to recall. I've done this quite a lot with pretty good success. No idea about PvP hallucination, maybe in split map mined out games which basically doesn't happen at a decent skill level game. | ||
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TT1
Canada9984 Posts
how u gonna compete vs imba building technology scan/nydus with shieldbattery? scan is by far the best ability in the game, blizzard gave us shieldbattery which is only useful in early game so ofc we gotta be cheeseboys | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands577 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey146 Posts
On January 23 2025 03:06 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: best mechanics = best player argument can be entirely refuted by looking at Hyuk and Soulkey. Soulkey's raw mechanics are worse than Hyuk's. Hyuk has maybe the best zerg mechanics. But his decision making and how he overspends on the wrong units at the wrong time costs him so many games. Soulkey is largely the smartest player, but by no means mechanically better than his peers. Yes sir. People need to stop equating apm with decision making. I literally see it all the time. Just watched XiaoGeGe vs ArtUser at CNSL7. WHY would you front the attack with your dragoons and attack the hatchery with your zealots?! Protoss players have themselves to blame. Fix your own lawn before badmouthing the municipality. You guys don't know how to play ceasar 3 or warcraft 3. I couldn't find any other example to demonstrate. There is a point in the game when numbers stop mattering anymore and what matters is the initiative. You protoss players make cannons and literally throw dragoons in the midst of the enemy frontal charge meatshielding zealots! Damn losers got to say protoss sucks. How about no? Please, if you are going to question my zerg bias can you please find some perspective yourself? There are countless errors in your games. All I do is praise Mini and Bisu who himself doesn't know 6 mini expansions mine more than 4. It is just basic arithmetic folks, you don't need my zerg fact checking to verify... Like for instance why not to make cannons: protoss is the most mineral dependent army in the game. I counted until 8:30 minutes in the Paralyze vs Beast game that Artosis recently cast protoss just made 2 bases. Suppose 1 minute the protoss makes 5 probes, in the second minute starts the natural nexus and the third fills them up to 9 probes and 3 more harvesting vespene geyser. Rechecked: second nexus done by 171 seconds, right on time if you discount the travel distance. At 8:30 it is likely to have harvested 9844 minerals and 3210 vespene gas from two 17/3 bases. From two 9/3 bases that number is 7468 minerals and 3210 gas. However, it takes 1000 more minerals to supply 40 probes instead of just 24 probes. All told, two bases with 17/3 probes cost 2700 minerals leaving 7144 minerals while two bases with 9/3 probes cost 1700 leaving 5768 minerals. You have just spent 1000 more minerals, cost yourself 16 supply in order to mine 24% more eventhough spending 38% more time probing. There is no way you need 3210 gas apart from making 9 archons at that point. Everything is mineral based. Even with 4 gateways you cannot mine enough to maximise 3210 gas. I checked again and edited the entire upper section. Nonstop probing from two nexuses cost 480 a minute - literally burning away what you gain from your expansion. It takes 8 probes just to mine that much every minute(almost an expansion) and there is diminishing returns on higher probe densities(even worse tradeoff). It only starts paying off when you stop probing - you are literally bankrupting your entire early game. That is what I'm trying to say when I say your early game is not OK. PS: also Soulkey is where he is at because he was the macro zerg. Just listen to Tasteless describe his solid and steady learning curve. He got to where he is because he wouldn't change his play style and cheese. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1409 Posts
On January 24 2025 03:59 EndingLife wrote: Hallucination in PvZ could be okay in super late game where the map is mined out. It might also be okay to hallucinate speed shuttles and send them to every Zerg expansion to threaten storm drops while one real speed shuttle storm drops the drones. I've never done it myself but I could see it somewhat working. Hallucination does have a use in PvT. When P goes arb and plans to recall but Terran turtles and over defends with turrets and there's literally no way to recall. I've done this quite a lot with pretty good success. No idea about PvP hallucination, maybe in split map mined out games which basically doesn't happen at a decent skill level game. Back in the day, I mean really back... Hallucination was commonly used against zerg late game mainly for two set ups: - Protoss went carriers and makes hallucinations to fool scourges. - Hallucinations on templars to fool broodlings. edit: I should add hallucination on arbiter too, at some point it was a trend vs zerg. | ||
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TMNT
2316 Posts
On January 24 2025 16:04 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: I have seen shuttle, Mini and Snow all try to utiluze hallucinations vs terran multiple times. Hallucinations to tank shots from tanks to engage on large terran armies. It didnt work a single time because you ultimately do zero damage with the hallu units plus they end up blocking your own units. Hallu however was effective in escorting shuttle drops through turret lines to get storms off on scvs. Or to misdirect with fake arbiters. Also seen it used to fake out carrier movement by sending fake carriers through vision, and the real ones elsewhere. But that was one single time and it didnt make a difference lol. It worked this time though: My favorite Protoss moment last year =) but yeah it's extremely rare case. | ||
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Volka
Argentina408 Posts
On January 24 2025 18:19 mtcn77 wrote: Yes sir. People need to stop equating apm with decision making. I literally see it all the time. Just watched XiaoGeGe vs ArtUser at CNSL7. WHY would you front the attack with your dragoons and attack the hatchery with your zealots?! Protoss players have themselves to blame. Fix your own lawn before badmouthing the municipality. You guys don't know how to play ceasar 3 or warcraft 3. I couldn't find any other example to demonstrate. There is a point in the game when numbers stop mattering anymore and what matters is the initiative. You protoss players make cannons and literally throw dragoons in the midst of the enemy frontal charge meatshielding zealots! Damn losers got to say protoss sucks. How about no? Please, if you are going to question my zerg bias can you please find some perspective yourself? There are countless errors in your games. All I do is praise Mini and Bisu who himself doesn't know 6 mini expansions mine more than 4. It is just basic arithmetic folks, you don't need my zerg fact checking to verify... Like for instance why not to make cannons: protoss is the most mineral dependent army in the game. I counted until 8:30 minutes in the Paralyze vs Beast game that Artosis recently cast protoss just made 2 bases. Suppose 1 minute the protoss makes 5 probes, in the second minute starts the natural nexus and the third fills them up to 9 probes and 3 more harvesting vespene geyser. Rechecked: second nexus done by 171 seconds, right on time if you discount the travel distance. At 8:30 it is likely to have harvested 9844 minerals and 3210 vespene gas from two 17/3 bases. From two 9/3 bases that number is 7468 minerals and 3210 gas. However, it takes 1000 more minerals to supply 40 probes instead of just 24 probes. All told, two bases with 17/3 probes cost 2700 minerals leaving 7144 minerals while two bases with 9/3 probes cost 1700 leaving 5768 minerals. You have just spent 1000 more minerals, cost yourself 16 supply in order to mine 24% more eventhough spending 38% more time probing. There is no way you need 3210 gas apart from making 9 archons at that point. Everything is mineral based. Even with 4 gateways you cannot mine enough to maximise 3210 gas. I checked again and edited the entire upper section. Nonstop probing from two nexuses cost 480 a minute - literally burning away what you gain from your expansion. It takes 8 probes just to mine that much every minute(almost an expansion) and there is diminishing returns on higher probe densities(even worse tradeoff). It only starts paying off when you stop probing - you are literally bankrupting your entire early game. That is what I'm trying to say when I say your early game is not OK. PS: also Soulkey is where he is at because he was the macro zerg. Just listen to Tasteless describe his solid and steady learning curve. He got to where he is because he wouldn't change his play style and cheese. You are saying P should only have 9 workers for minerals in both main and natural in the early game to get a stronger army? Do you even play the game? Even Zerg has more Drones than that (except in ZvZ). Even if I were to believe your numbers, having so few workers just puts you in all-in territory. One failed attack, and you are gone. Z counteratacks, you are dead. The point of having more workers (over-saturating) is that when you take a third and a fourth you can saturate them inmediately. In addition, having additional workers is an insurance policy. If Z attacks and you need to defend, you can use your workers, and if you lose a couple, that's fine. Imagine having only 9 workers and losing them all. You are dead. Unless you have an specific all-in play, cutting workers like that is not a good idea. Also, again, if you don't make Cannons in early game, YOU JUST DIE TO ZERGLINGS AND HYDRAS. Period. Dragoons ARE NOT "moving Cannons". They have explosive damage (which make them weak vs lings and hydras), shoot slower and cost more. I recommend you play Protoss for a week and come back with better ideas. | ||
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SiarX
81 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10022 Posts
On January 24 2025 18:19 mtcn77 wrote: Yes sir. People need to stop equating apm with decision making. I literally see it all the time. Just watched XiaoGeGe vs ArtUser at CNSL7. WHY would you front the attack with your dragoons and attack the hatchery with your zealots?! Protoss players have themselves to blame. Fix your own lawn before badmouthing the municipality. You guys don't know how to play ceasar 3 or warcraft 3. I couldn't find any other example to demonstrate. There is a point in the game when numbers stop mattering anymore and what matters is the initiative. You protoss players make cannons and literally throw dragoons in the midst of the enemy frontal charge meatshielding zealots! Damn losers got to say protoss sucks. How about no? Please, if you are going to question my zerg bias can you please find some perspective yourself? There are countless errors in your games. All I do is praise Mini and Bisu who himself doesn't know 6 mini expansions mine more than 4. It is just basic arithmetic folks, you don't need my zerg fact checking to verify... Like for instance why not to make cannons: protoss is the most mineral dependent army in the game. I counted until 8:30 minutes in the Paralyze vs Beast game that Artosis recently cast protoss just made 2 bases. Suppose 1 minute the protoss makes 5 probes, in the second minute starts the natural nexus and the third fills them up to 9 probes and 3 more harvesting vespene geyser. Rechecked: second nexus done by 171 seconds, right on time if you discount the travel distance. At 8:30 it is likely to have harvested 9844 minerals and 3210 vespene gas from two 17/3 bases. From two 9/3 bases that number is 7468 minerals and 3210 gas. However, it takes 1000 more minerals to supply 40 probes instead of just 24 probes. All told, two bases with 17/3 probes cost 2700 minerals leaving 7144 minerals while two bases with 9/3 probes cost 1700 leaving 5768 minerals. You have just spent 1000 more minerals, cost yourself 16 supply in order to mine 24% more eventhough spending 38% more time probing. There is no way you need 3210 gas apart from making 9 archons at that point. Everything is mineral based. Even with 4 gateways you cannot mine enough to maximise 3210 gas. I checked again and edited the entire upper section. Nonstop probing from two nexuses cost 480 a minute - literally burning away what you gain from your expansion. It takes 8 probes just to mine that much every minute(almost an expansion) and there is diminishing returns on higher probe densities(even worse tradeoff). It only starts paying off when you stop probing - you are literally bankrupting your entire early game. That is what I'm trying to say when I say your early game is not OK. PS: also Soulkey is where he is at because he was the macro zerg. Just listen to Tasteless describe his solid and steady learning curve. He got to where he is because he wouldn't change his play style and cheese. Jesus christ this is like E rank levels of analysis. You make more probes so that you can afford more gateways. Please explain how you're going to afford 8 gateway production after 8:30 while sitting on 18 probes total? Just play the game a bit more, learn a bit more, and maybe you'll hit C rank one day. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4096 Posts
On January 25 2025 02:48 SiarX wrote: I wonder whether supporting cannons with shield batteries would be more efficient than pure cannons defense? Sometimes I wonder if batteries are allowed to charge buildings, would this actually improve meaningfully Protoss early vs Zerg (without impacting other matchups too much) | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey146 Posts
On January 25 2025 02:48 FlaShFTW wrote: Jesus christ this is like E rank levels of analysis. You make more probes so that you can afford more gateways. Please explain how you're going to afford 8 gateway production after 8:30 while sitting on 18 probes total? Just play the game a bit more, learn a bit more, and maybe you'll hit C rank one day. I made a mistake by mistaking 14scv reference as 750 minerals per minute instead of 700 from the ideal mining thoughts thread. I'm trying to restart the calculation from the beginning. That totally skews my numbers, second nexus pops up at 193 seconds, not 171 - that is at 20. I cannot select the time to split for a better economy. I need data on probe travel time between the main and natural. By the time second nexus operates at 20 supply mark, you are already making 900 minerals per minute from a single base. Losing time to make 1060 from two bases don't seem like a good trade; however it takes 126 seconds to train 9 probes - it cannot be worse than that. | ||
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SiarX
81 Posts
On January 25 2025 05:16 M2 wrote: Sometimes I wonder if batteries are allowed to charge buildings, would this actually improve meaningfully Protoss early vs Zerg (without impacting other matchups too much) Oh, I forgot that they cannot do even that in SC1... Sad. | ||
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