someonwle said mini has a better pvz than snow but according to ELOBoard SnOw actually has the better winrates vs the top zergs than mini. Both Bisu and SnOw actually have the best pvz stats. It is really SoMa who had SnOw figured out big time.(since last year soulkey too)
Mini: Jo Il-jang Z (217 wins, 215 losses) Kim Myeong-un Z (205 wins, 216 losses) Park Sang-hyun Z (170 wins, 223 losses) Lee Je-dong Z (215 wins, 192 losses) Kim Min-Chul (101 wins, 150 losses)
SnOw: Cho Il-jang Z (254 wins, 206 losses) Kim Myeong-un Z (211 wins, 182 losses ) Jae-dong Z (157 wins, 117 losses) Park Sang-Hyun(89 wins, 152 losses) Kim Min-Chul (118 wins 144 losses)
edit: Bisu up on all zergs except Soulkey at 82 wins, 104 losses.
note: Bunch of china ultimate battle from the past year got removed from eloboard. scores would look slightly different for all.
I've said some things that insinuate current top3 PvZers are Mini > Snow > Bisu which is based on offline best ofs series in ASL/SSL (which I still stand by).
Bisu with maple defense still almost better than everyone else while Jaedong with mass practice('' fck protoss'' ) :D here is my experience for those guys who has no from this. Hardest Race : Terran. why ? we can put things about zvp tvp pvz pvt and etc but one things TVT is the most hardest mirror match up in this game. If i saw this comment from anyone T,Z,P you could be taken seriously but rather most people just venting her own frustration what is so sad and weak thing. what is the second ? i dont wanna fight scene where reamining 80% are protoss )
PvZ forever felt like a primarily multitasking matchup, doesn't fit Snow's playstyle much. You have to be constantly in contact with the zerg, but across the entire map, not in some one location.
He can make it happen vs modern style when he is in peak condition, e.g. when he perfectly storms the mutas with just the HTs that the mutas are trying to snipe.
But he can't reliably bring that level of performance offline, so we get what we get. He's also better on 2 player maps(relative to the other P's, I know that 2 player maps are better for P in general) because he can e.g. choke off 2 areas relying on his micro and trade well over and over.
Bisu can do it on any map, but well, he's no longer a favorite to go far either via PvP or PvT, and while he still has good results in PvZ he's not crushing it either.
The game could stand to have 1 more balance patch but I do think there are 2 fundamental problems that could be inferred from pro play.
Someone listed the most balanced maps in the pro scene and it seems there is tendency that it is much easier to screw over protoss. Also it seems if zerg isn't having some type of advantage in ZvT then the map works in way that Protoss will have a fairer time.
The other thing is that I don't think protoss has been fully figured out.
Against zerg From 9 to 19 minutes protoss generally wins but at all other points they lost significantly enough. But if you isolate for the highest MMR protoss can decisively win after 33 minutes.
Meanwhile they have more wins over terran across all skill levels but at the highest level terran competes a lot more past 34 minutes and as a result there is a huge amount of volatility in wins for both factions.
It might be the case protoss at the highest levels haven't figured out a way to stabilize in the late game that is holding back any of them from reaching S tier.
On January 22 2025 02:10 mutantmagnet wrote: The game could stand to have 1 more balance patch but I do think there are 2 fundamental problems that could be inferred from pro play.
Someone listed the most balanced maps in the pro scene and it seems there is tendenacy that it is much easier to screw over protoss. Also it seems if zerg isn't having some type of advantage in ZvT then the map works in way that Protoss will have a fairer time.
The other thing is that I don't think protoss has been fully figured out.
Against zerg From 9 to 19 minutes protoss generally wins but at all other points they lost significantly enough. But if you isolate for the highest MMR protoss can decisively win after 33 minutes.
Meanwhile they have more wins over terran across all skill levels but at the highest level terran competes a lot more passed 34 minutes and as a result there is a huge amount of volatility in wins for both factions.
It might be the case protoss at the highest levels haven't figured out a way to stabilize in the late game that is holding back any of them from reaching S tier.
Yes, sir. That is the message I was trying to convey. The reason I know this to be true is because protoss has a spell that is NOT used in the current meta. HTs can hallucinate units. The protoss army is the most intimidating albeit glass cannon army in starcraft. You are supposed to pick and choose engagements. The fact hallucinate is not even considered is the only evidence I know for a fact what we are doing is wrong. As with the queen, it takes only the best players to make it happen. Instead, what we have been seeing in the past is protoss players who have tried to Rock their way against Julyzerg and failed all this time. This matchup is 'heavily' protoss favored when counting who makes more expansions. You cannot play meek when handed the most unbalanced army roster. You have to go big, or go home. There is no way it is zerg favoured according to the numbers I have demonstrated. We have just been witnessing tower defence players until now. That is a path with no future since it is in fact an early game rush strategy that rushes cannons and loses because cannons in your expansions have NO OFFENCE. You wouldn't doubt zerg would lose because of too many sunkens - where is your judgement when expecting the same from protoss? Remember, in the starcraft lore zerg has the Overmind and can control psi just like the protoss in order to coordinate swarms of units successfully; however protoss has fallen into civil disarray from time to time at times when their psionic link broke. There won't be a time the protoss outshines the zerg until protoss has single handedly outsmarted the zerg and zerg can no longer tell when and where the surgical strike is going to come. TL;DR: make more expansions, but not before early game aggression. The ball is in your court, not zerg.
I'm very skeptical about your take, but I would love for you to show us a good use of hallucination vs Zerg. A replay will be preferred.
The problem that I see with what you are saying is that Zerg is the one that has map control in this matchup, because speedlings are so fricking good. I don't know how you over-expand vs a Zerg that has map control. The theory of sitting behind a wall of cannons is to tech to speed zealots and Corsairs: the fast harassment units to fight for map control. What's your alternative to this? How do you contest for map control without those tech units? slow zealots? Dragoons? I don't get it.
Edit: Also Zergs sit behind a wall of sunkens for Crazy Zerg vs Terran to tech to Ultras, and is one of the greatest strats ever.
On January 22 2025 02:10 mutantmagnet wrote: The game could stand to have 1 more balance patch but I do think there are 2 fundamental problems that could be inferred from pro play.
Someone listed the most balanced maps in the pro scene and it seems there is tendenacy that it is much easier to screw over protoss. Also it seems if zerg isn't having some type of advantage in ZvT then the map works in way that Protoss will have a fairer time.
The other thing is that I don't think protoss has been fully figured out.
Against zerg From 9 to 19 minutes protoss generally wins but at all other points they lost significantly enough. But if you isolate for the highest MMR protoss can decisively win after 33 minutes.
Meanwhile they have more wins over terran across all skill levels but at the highest level terran competes a lot more passed 34 minutes and as a result there is a huge amount of volatility in wins for both factions.
It might be the case protoss at the highest levels haven't figured out a way to stabilize in the late game that is holding back any of them from reaching S tier.
Yes, sir. That is the message I was trying to convey. The reason I know this to be true is because protoss has a spell that is NOT used in the current meta. HTs can hallucinate units. The protoss army is the most intimidating albeit glass cannon army in starcraft. You are supposed to pick and choose engagements. The fact hallucinate is not even considered is the only evidence I know for a fact what we are doing is wrong. As with the queen, it takes only the best players to make it happen. Instead, what we have been seeing in the past is protoss players who have tried to Troy their way against Jaedong and failed all this time. This matchup is 'heavily' protoss favored when counting who makes more expansions. You cannot play meek when handed the most unbalanced army roster. You have to go big, or go home. There is no way it is zerg favoured according to the numbers I have demonstrated. We have just been witnessing tower defence players until now. That is a path with no future since it is in fact an early game rush strategy that rushes cannons and loses because cannons in your expansions have NO OFFENCE. You wouldn't doubt zerg would lose because of too many sunkens - where is your judgement when expecting the same from protoss? Remember, in the starcraft lore zerg has the Overmind and can control psi just like the protoss in order to coordinate swarms of units successfully; however protoss has fallen into civil disarray from time to time at times when their psionic link broke. There won't be a time the protoss outshines the zerg until protoss has single handedly outsmarted the zerg and zerg can no longer tell when and where the surgical strike is going to come. TL;DR: make more expansions, but not before early game aggression. The ball is in your court, not zerg.
On January 22 2025 08:05 Volka wrote: I'm very skeptical about your take, but I would love for you to show us a good use of hallucination vs Zerg. A replay will be preferred.
The problem that I see with what you are saying is that Zerg is the one that has map control in this matchup, because speedlings are so fricking good. I don't know how you over-expand vs a Zerg that has map control. The theory of sitting behind a wall of cannons is to tech to speed zealots and Corsairs: the fast harassment units to fight for map control. What's your alternative to this? How do you contest for map control without those tech units? slow zealots? Dragoons? I don't get it.
Edit: Also Zergs sit behind a wall of sunkens for Crazy Zerg vs Terran to tech to Ultras, and is one of the greatest strats ever.
On January 22 2025 02:10 mutantmagnet wrote: The game could stand to have 1 more balance patch but I do think there are 2 fundamental problems that could be inferred from pro play.
Someone listed the most balanced maps in the pro scene and it seems there is tendenacy that it is much easier to screw over protoss. Also it seems if zerg isn't having some type of advantage in ZvT then the map works in way that Protoss will have a fairer time.
The other thing is that I don't think protoss has been fully figured out.
Against zerg From 9 to 19 minutes protoss generally wins but at all other points they lost significantly enough. But if you isolate for the highest MMR protoss can decisively win after 33 minutes.
Meanwhile they have more wins over terran across all skill levels but at the highest level terran competes a lot more passed 34 minutes and as a result there is a huge amount of volatility in wins for both factions.
It might be the case protoss at the highest levels haven't figured out a way to stabilize in the late game that is holding back any of them from reaching S tier.
Yes, sir. That is the message I was trying to convey. The reason I know this to be true is because protoss has a spell that is NOT used in the current meta. HTs can hallucinate units. The protoss army is the most intimidating albeit glass cannon army in starcraft. You are supposed to pick and choose engagements. The fact hallucinate is not even considered is the only evidence I know for a fact what we are doing is wrong. As with the queen, it takes only the best players to make it happen. Instead, what we have been seeing in the past is protoss players who have tried to Troy their way against Jaedong and failed all this time. This matchup is 'heavily' protoss favored when counting who makes more expansions. You cannot play meek when handed the most unbalanced army roster. You have to go big, or go home. There is no way it is zerg favoured according to the numbers I have demonstrated. We have just been witnessing tower defence players until now. That is a path with no future since it is in fact an early game rush strategy that rushes cannons and loses because cannons in your expansions have NO OFFENCE. You wouldn't doubt zerg would lose because of too many sunkens - where is your judgement when expecting the same from protoss? Remember, in the starcraft lore zerg has the Overmind and can control psi just like the protoss in order to coordinate swarms of units successfully; however protoss has fallen into civil disarray from time to time at times when their psionic link broke. There won't be a time the protoss outshines the zerg until protoss has single handedly outsmarted the zerg and zerg can no longer tell when and where the surgical strike is going to come. TL;DR: make more expansions, but not before early game aggression. The ball is in your court, not zerg.
Your scepticism is fully justified. However my point is, I flip the coin on its head: what if you played PvZ like you played PvT. No one questions protoss running more expansions than terran, why not the same against zerg when the baseline numbers are the same. Don't worry, I know I'm crazy, but that is how I solved Caesar 3, too. And you know it is just as simcity as starcraft is. Right now I'm theory crafting how to jump between expansions. It is ugly, I'm no whirlwind777, but that is how I approach the game. Purely functionally. PS: I had an economist girlfriend who thought she could impress me with the gdp formula they use for countries. She didn't know the first thing about starcraft.
Snow has been getting some really good wins. He is my favorite Protoss to watch right now. He beat Flash and Soulkey in two really high-level games, Speed 4:1, Sorry 4:0. He is reminding me of Jangbi. Just a solid balance of macro and micro, with some really good micro. You can tell he's really improving his game, he's been trying a new corsair micro, and his dragoon micro is starting to be a class of its own like his reaver. He kites his dragoons extremely well, and focus fires along damage breakpoints. His reaver control is still in its own class, and he looks like he's not even trying with it anymore.
@mtcn77 If hallucination is going to work, it probably has to be used with an early zealot timing on the third, when Zerg has only hydras and sunkens. If we're going by game theory, you are trading raw damage against units for basically more HP / damage negation, so if you want to make the most of it, you have to use it in a situation where storm's damage wouldn't be applicable, and your damage is already good enough, and where the extra survivability would be useful. Storm doesn't work on sunkens, but hallu can negate a lot of damage, especially from the sunken. If you don't get unlucky with the targeting, your real zealots will be taking little damage and dishing out a lot, which can be very impactful on Zerg at that phase in the game.
It fundamentally comes down to hatcheries being the same building for collecting resources and building your army.
Protoss and Terran spending 700 minerals early on is drastically different from zerg spending the same amount.
If it is possible to aggressively fast expand it probably requires some very specific map features that makes it easy to hold a natural expansion location for protoss.
As for Volka's question about what can protoss do to tech differently to contest the map reavers haven't stopped being viable. But for reavers to work you must be very good at scouting to ensure they went hydras instead of spire as their mid game opener.
Protoss IMO always has to react to the tech choices zerg makes but when they do it correctly they can dominate that decision over time.
On January 22 2025 08:44 QRCode wrote: Snow has been getting some really good wins. He is my favorite Protoss to watch right now. He beat Flash and Soulkey in two really high-level games, Speed 4:1, Sorry 4:0. He is reminding me of Jangbi. Just a solid balance of macro and micro, with some really good micro. You can tell he's really improving his game, he's been trying a new corsair micro, and his dragoon micro is starting to be a class of its own like his reaver. He kites his dragoons extremely well, and focus fires along damage breakpoints. His reaver control is still in its own class, and he looks like he's not even trying with it anymore.
@mtcn77 If hallucination is going to work, it probably has to be used with an early zealot timing on the third, when Zerg has only hydras and sunkens. If we're going by game theory, you are trading raw damage against units for basically more HP / damage negation, so if you want to make the most of it, you have to use it in a situation where storm's damage wouldn't be applicable, and your damage is already good enough, and where the extra survivability would be useful. Storm doesn't work on sunkens, but hallu can negate a lot of damage, especially from the sunken. If you don't get unlucky with the targeting, your real zealots will be taking little damage and dishing out a lot, which can be very impactful on Zerg at that phase in the game.
I thought hallucinate could be used to foil scourge ambushes. At least that is what I considered given the propensity of zerg to go after protoss air units. Games can end either way, but if protoss is to play the migrant fleet strategy, this is one way to consider it. I also don't think we approach the question how it would best be answered. Protoss does not have to develop protoss citadel of adun for instance and zealot legs if the glass cannon strategy is to be used. You sit and wait outside the zerg base. The zerg has to engage, instead. You don't need a late game army. The protoss only has a window until defilers break all ground engagements. What you have is what you do before that. Yet, it is considerable. Like I said, the protoss has the fastest glass cannon army in the game. You keep amassing units and forcing the zerg to lose map control, or engage in unfavourable numbers. I think it can be done. Forget all defence, just go after map control. Probes are robots after all. Don't lament over losing them. If zerg had time to prepare for a rush, that means you could rush sooner and haven't while expanding and that is on you. I haven't sorted out the exact numbers, but at least we know all zerg units are weaker than protoss units - stating the fact as a zerg main.
mtcn77 it was long noticed that you are a zerg main. Btw, are you aware that the more ranged units player has, the stronger they get? Read: 2 hydras don't beat 1 zealot, but 20 beat 10 zealots. There are milion of arguments to throw your 2gate vs zerg strategy out of the window. I know, I've been 2-gating in PvZ a really long time.
On January 22 2025 00:16 sas.Sziky wrote: Hardest Race : Terran. why ? we can put things about zvp tvp pvz pvt and etc but one things TVT is the most hardest mirror match up in this game.
Mirror match-up cannot decide if the race is hard. Say there are 2 terrans with 0% win rate in TvZ and TvP, their TvT win rate will likely to be 50%, despite the fact that these 2 players are very very bad. Just the fact that the TvT match up is most macro oriented, doesn't make it hardest. Micro is a very underrated perk nowadays.
On January 22 2025 16:15 Bonyth wrote: mtcn77 it was long noticed that you are a zerg main. Btw, are you aware that the more ranged units player has, the stronger they get? Read: 2 hydras don't beat 1 zealot, but 20 beat 10 zealots. There are milion of arguments to throw your 2gate vs zerg strategy out of the window. I know, I've been 2-gating in PvZ a really long time.
On January 22 2025 00:16 sas.Sziky wrote: Hardest Race : Terran. why ? we can put things about zvp tvp pvz pvt and etc but one things TVT is the most hardest mirror match up in this game.
Mirror match-up cannot decide if the race is hard. Say there are 2 terrans with 0% win rate in TvZ and TvP, their TvT win rate will likely to be 50%, despite the fact that these 2 players are very very bad. Just the fact that the TvT match up is most macro oriented, doesn't make it hardest. Micro is a very underrated perk nowadays.
That would have been end of things with diplomatic without talking things like if u are P imba z,t if u are Z imba p,t if u are T imba p,z what most people did nowadays which is toxic. '' Say there are 2 terrans with 0% win rate in TvZ and TvP, their TvT win rate will likely to be 50%'' Bonyth sorry but it is so stupidity and still can 0% tvt winrate but its never ever possible what u said. Mainly i said because of the time playing TvT way longer than other two match up. '' Just the fact that the TvT match up is most macro oriented, doesn't make it hardest. Micro is a very underrated perk '' well idk when u using 150-200 pop with continuly scan rehotkey scan using, using the whole map million mine,turret fixing macro, micro + time for me hardest in mirro btw about 2 gate. i am not sure it was 2 years ago or ? and i am also not sure that u won or not but Not u won against Soma with 2gate on FS? sorry if that was loss then i remember wrongly
At least in mirrors there is no racial imbalance. Plus in TvT there is least build order gambling of all 3 mirror match-ups. TvT match-up is good for people with good macro, multi-tasking and apm. Does it make it the hardest? In many people's eyes yes, for me there is more to StarCraft than just macro and apm.
Yes, I won vs Soma with 2-gate. Why? Because he forgot that 2-gate exists - he scouted with overlord my natural, didnt see anything, and didn't check main location. I won thanks to wrong read of the game (Soma's error), not because 2-gate is a good build. Read: build is so bad, that zergs treat it as non-existent build.
more than macro and apm of course i just think its the hardest part of the game but of course we don't have to agree on that but after all in RTS and Starcraft the most best player have beast mechanic Flash,Bisu,JD( even Soulkey has ) Sc2 Serral,Clem Aoe2: Hera of course there are 1-2 players in the past who has not really but overall always the best mechanic guy the best. i saw that game of course Soma mistake + your skill. if bad build then i am a bad player because i also los many times against 2gw probably u know it because it was against you :D
I think a better question will be. Why protoss players are undeperforming vs Soulkey ? .. And right now im not sure how real is that cuz Snow been trashing him really bad.
Soma being dominant in the past doesnt really matter when he is been gone for 2 years now.
Also this thread if just full of protoss players and protoss supporters. Dragoon is not as bad as you all claim. Even zerg progamers call them Walking canons. You put Dragoons in high ground and theres is literally not way to trade well vs them. Do you put zealots in front of them and they just destroy your army. Specially in these new maps that are super protoss favored Protoss never had this more easy.
I mean shit. Look at past ASLs. Is only Hero and SK in the round of 8. Mini vs: hero 50.2% (217 wins, 215 losses) Queen 48.7% (205 wins, 216 losses) Soma 43.3% (170 wins, 223 losses) Jaedong 52.8% (215 wins, 192 losses) Soulkey 40.2% (101 wins, 150 losses)
You all acting like Protoss cant even compete when in reality the maps and the new meta has forced zerg to win most of their games with all ins cuz in the new maps is really hard to defend your 4 expansion and get a decent position to get Hive.
Like my brother zerg said. Start using Hallucinations and stop complaining..
After 28 years of SC-BW people come up with the idea that P hasn't discovered their full potential and should use hallucination to turn around the balance. It's just so HILARIOUS.
I do not think hallucinations make any sense. They are always (except some rare arbiter play cases) worse than storms. Protoss who uses hallucinations is likely to lose because of lack of storms.
EPT
Mini vs:
hero 
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