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On December 25 2024 17:52 Forrelet wrote:I switched to vaping a couple of years ago, mainly to cut down on smoking, and it worked surprisingly well for me. At first, I stuck to disposable vapes because they were less hassle, didn’t require much setup, and could quickly try different flavors without committing to a whole bottle of e-liquid. I remember starting with Air Bar and later exploring brands like Elf Bar and Crave Vape. Some options with 0% nicotine helped when I was weaning off entirely. If you’re considering trying some well-known disposable vapes or exploring nicotine-free options, Nexus Smoke has a good range of brands like these that cater to different preferences.
i have seen ppl being banned from here for much much less....
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On December 26 2024 03:10 Xeln4g4 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2024 17:52 Forrelet wrote:I switched to vaping a couple of years ago, mainly to cut down on smoking, and it worked surprisingly well for me. At first, I stuck to disposable vapes because they were less hassle, didn’t require much setup, and could quickly try different flavors without committing to a whole bottle of e-liquid. I remember starting with Air Bar and later exploring brands like Elf Bar and Crave Vape. Some options with 0% nicotine helped when I was weaning off entirely. If you’re considering trying some well-known disposable vapes or exploring nicotine-free options, Nexus Smoke has a good range of brands like these that cater to different preferences. i have seen ppl being banned from here for much much less....
Right beside 'quote' is 'report'. Give that one a tap next time to help the mods out!
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m.youtube.com
I found a game in which Bonyth tries the same against Rush and fails. Notice, I previously called two gate rush works only against the zerg due to their cost handicap for the hatchery. The same strategy won't work against terran, so unintuitively aggressive play works against zerg better than terrans for the protoss. You need to consider this in your meta.
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United States10483 Posts
On December 28 2024 04:05 mtcn77 wrote:m.youtube.comI found a game in which Bonyth tries the same against Rush and fails. Notice, I previously called two gate rush works only against the zerg due to their cost handicap for the hatchery. The same strategy won't work against terran, so unintuitively aggressive play works against zerg better than terrans for the protoss. You need to consider this in your meta.
You evidence that 2 gate is the better build for PvZ is that... it doesn't work in PvT? Not really following the logic with this one.
If you think 2 gate is the way to go, why don't you try it on ladder and play S rank zergs with it then? Show us the way! I'm sure Protoss players would pay a lot of money to learn from you if it starts to work.
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On December 28 2024 04:51 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2024 04:05 mtcn77 wrote:m.youtube.comI found a game in which Bonyth tries the same against Rush and fails. Notice, I previously called two gate rush works only against the zerg due to their cost handicap for the hatchery. The same strategy won't work against terran, so unintuitively aggressive play works against zerg better than terrans for the protoss. You need to consider this in your meta. You evidence that 2 gate is the better build for PvZ is that... it doesn't work in PvT? Not really following the logic with this one.
If you think 2 gate is the way to go, why don't you try it on ladder and play S rank zergs with it then? Show us the way! I'm sure Protoss players would pay a lot of money to learn from you if it starts to work.
Well, both protoss and terran have the same build tree in comparison to zerg where all zerg production comes from hatcheries. That makes hatcheries expensive for zerg, however barracks and gateways in the early game are quite cheap. That can be sustained from a single base since a hatchery is 200 minerals more costly than both a gateway and barracks.
A fast expanding zerg has to balance economy and the hatchery while you can make the barracks and run 200 minerals in the lead vs zerg. However between protoss and terran buildings, there are no such outliers. Between PvT, cutting back the economy does not put you in better map control since the opponent has the same cost basis whereas vs zerg that put you 200 minerals in the lead. It is the smallest gaps that put you ahead in the game.
Looking at it this way gives a good perspective on the most available strategies in protoss and terran arsenal whether it be prioritising economy, or early game map awareness. You aren't better, or worse with FE, however you have to mine more to FE and you just don't use the full advantage of a protoss timing build and that might be an issue to give zerg free roam during any part of the game. You will come to regret it.
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Hello all!
Sorry to necro and balance idea from the newb, but from my experience, P is indeed weaker (like 46%) against both T and Z at pro levels.
Balance ideas are a boring topic, but these might be liked in some scenarios:
Hallucination spell energy from 100/2 to 50/1. We might see some random fake sair or zeal before archon merge.
Scout price from 275/125 to 225/75. It would still be niche, but might be built once in a while before carrier switches.
D-Web researched at the core, not in the beacon. Spares a beacon, might be useful against hydra busts or just give the room for more corsair/reaver plays.
Malestrom energy from 100 to 75 maybe to match the storms.
In T, I would reduce BC yamato energy from 150 to 100 and allow medic flare and restoration from the dropship (not healing though).
In Z I would give devourer a chance to splash its spores to ground units, and improve infested terran health to make it useful when combined with ensnare at least.
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On December 28 2024 04:51 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2024 04:05 mtcn77 wrote:m.youtube.comI found a game in which Bonyth tries the same against Rush and fails. Notice, I previously called two gate rush works only against the zerg due to their cost handicap for the hatchery. The same strategy won't work against terran, so unintuitively aggressive play works against zerg better than terrans for the protoss. You need to consider this in your meta. You evidence that 2 gate is the better build for PvZ is that... it doesn't work in PvT? Not really following the logic with this one. If you think 2 gate is the way to go, why don't you try it on ladder and play S rank zergs with it then? Show us the way! I'm sure Protoss players would pay a lot of money to learn from you if it starts to work.
My practice partner plays two gate vs. Zerg on the ladder and he doesn't have an issue hitting S rank
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On December 28 2024 04:51 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2024 04:05 mtcn77 wrote:m.youtube.comI found a game in which Bonyth tries the same against Rush and fails. Notice, I previously called two gate rush works only against the zerg due to their cost handicap for the hatchery. The same strategy won't work against terran, so unintuitively aggressive play works against zerg better than terrans for the protoss. You need to consider this in your meta. You evidence that 2 gate is the better build for PvZ is that... it doesn't work in PvT? Not really following the logic with this one. If you think 2 gate is the way to go, why don't you try it on ladder and play S rank zergs with it then? Show us the way! I'm sure Protoss players would pay a lot of money to learn from you if it starts to work.
it s more of an exotic build but Stork himself has a series getting to S off only 2 gates and smashing S rank Z too while recommending it to his students/viewers. But he is so much better that it somewhat negates the importance of the build (like Bisu going mass scout vs that chinese player or Larva messing around)
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Just change max population to 250 and you will see a lot more of protoss wins, without changing anything else
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On January 09 2025 16:11 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2024 04:51 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 28 2024 04:05 mtcn77 wrote:m.youtube.comI found a game in which Bonyth tries the same against Rush and fails. Notice, I previously called two gate rush works only against the zerg due to their cost handicap for the hatchery. The same strategy won't work against terran, so unintuitively aggressive play works against zerg better than terrans for the protoss. You need to consider this in your meta. You evidence that 2 gate is the better build for PvZ is that... it doesn't work in PvT? Not really following the logic with this one. If you think 2 gate is the way to go, why don't you try it on ladder and play S rank zergs with it then? Show us the way! I'm sure Protoss players would pay a lot of money to learn from you if it starts to work. My practice partner plays two gate vs. Zerg on the ladder and he doesn't have an issue hitting S rank
bet he loves playing against 9pool zergs because that can reallly screw over 2 gate openers.
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On January 10 2025 00:55 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2025 16:11 iopq wrote:On December 28 2024 04:51 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 28 2024 04:05 mtcn77 wrote:m.youtube.comI found a game in which Bonyth tries the same against Rush and fails. Notice, I previously called two gate rush works only against the zerg due to their cost handicap for the hatchery. The same strategy won't work against terran, so unintuitively aggressive play works against zerg better than terrans for the protoss. You need to consider this in your meta. You evidence that 2 gate is the better build for PvZ is that... it doesn't work in PvT? Not really following the logic with this one. If you think 2 gate is the way to go, why don't you try it on ladder and play S rank zergs with it then? Show us the way! I'm sure Protoss players would pay a lot of money to learn from you if it starts to work. My practice partner plays two gate vs. Zerg on the ladder and he doesn't have an issue hitting S rank bet he loves playing against 9pool zergs because that can reallly screw over 2 gate openers.
2 gates is great vs 9pool O_o
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On January 10 2025 00:55 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2025 16:11 iopq wrote:On December 28 2024 04:51 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 28 2024 04:05 mtcn77 wrote:m.youtube.comI found a game in which Bonyth tries the same against Rush and fails. Notice, I previously called two gate rush works only against the zerg due to their cost handicap for the hatchery. The same strategy won't work against terran, so unintuitively aggressive play works against zerg better than terrans for the protoss. You need to consider this in your meta. You evidence that 2 gate is the better build for PvZ is that... it doesn't work in PvT? Not really following the logic with this one. If you think 2 gate is the way to go, why don't you try it on ladder and play S rank zergs with it then? Show us the way! I'm sure Protoss players would pay a lot of money to learn from you if it starts to work. My practice partner plays two gate vs. Zerg on the ladder and he doesn't have an issue hitting S rank bet he loves playing against 9pool zergs because that can reallly screw over 2 gate openers.
You cannot beat 2 gate without simcity.
PS: you need 2 hatcheries and a spawning pool in order to meet 2 gate in the field. That is +300 minerals advantage for the protoss. You also need +300 more minerals just to make the 12 zerglings to defend against those 3 zealots. You won't be harvesting those 600 minerals, I'll tell you that let alone the economy advantage from getting to make probes nonstop all throughout this time. 2 hatcheries don't lay enough larvae to make any more drones than the necessary 4:1 zerglings against 2 gates warping zealots.
I checked the guides. All 2 gate openers recommend 11-13 probes. I think this is expected. Using "Ideal mining thoughts thread" numbers, 13 probes should harvest ~670 minerals a minute, quite near 595 minerals/minute needed to make zealots and pylons non-stop. What a coincidence - it takes 57 seconds to make one pylon and a gateway, or two. If you had the minerals, you would start the pylon to make the gateways at 9.
I recon if you take it to 20 probes, you can make probes, zealots and pylons nonstop. It takes 3 probes time to make a gateway. That means, building inventory is a good idea. You will already need a solid minutes worth of minerals at 9 to pave the way for the 2 pylons and 2 gateways until you can begin warping in zealots, discounting the probes, so it can wait. The slowest ramp up would be at 14 and 17(19, counting the first zealot).
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That's too simplistic of a view.
First, 3 lings should be enough per zealot given more or less equal micro.
Next, P has to deal with counter-attack threat, always having to keep at least 1 zealot at the ramp.
Zerg can commit some lings to a counter attack safely, since if P tries to base race, Z always has option to get sunkens.
Next, there's travel time, which is significant and can also be further slowed down by lings constantly trying to isolate or surround a moving zealot.
Finally, on the defense we have possibilities of sunkens and drone drills.
And a bunch of ways of gaining extra time by trading off e.g. some mining time on targeted drones, or hatchery HP, etc. There's no rule saying you have to fight with everything when zealots reach Z natural.
2 gate is all right, but it does have a ceiling, providing zerg knows exactly how to handle it(which is a high requirement).
That being said, people executing the 2 gate aren't necessarily doing it well, either.
For people who didn't hyper focus on learning how to do 2gate very well, it drops off around 2k. For those who did, idk, 2.6k? Still a very situational build at pro level, definitely not the "optimal" way to play it.
There's something to be said about proxy gates, and the multitasking tactics where the P constantly switches between threatening a push, possibly moving 1 zealot to natural ramp, or keeping a zealot between gateways for defense of the pylon, moving out when next zealot is half done(unlike gates in main, where you just don't want to let lings up the ramp at all, with center gates only vulnerability is pylon which does have some HP to let zealot finish).
Anyway, Mini's like the only one who engages with that type of play enough, and still getting mixed results.
10/12 in-base 2gate is just fine vs some zerg openings such as 9p, but def not vs everyone. It is a fine play for BO series that can potentially punish zergs who overuse some openings, or cut scouting, or don't check mains with their overlord, etc.
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I just wanted to point out, there is an inconsistency. 2 gate is a response to hatchery first, not 9 pool.
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On January 09 2025 16:11 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2024 04:51 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 28 2024 04:05 mtcn77 wrote:m.youtube.comI found a game in which Bonyth tries the same against Rush and fails. Notice, I previously called two gate rush works only against the zerg due to their cost handicap for the hatchery. The same strategy won't work against terran, so unintuitively aggressive play works against zerg better than terrans for the protoss. You need to consider this in your meta. You evidence that 2 gate is the better build for PvZ is that... it doesn't work in PvT? Not really following the logic with this one. If you think 2 gate is the way to go, why don't you try it on ladder and play S rank zergs with it then? Show us the way! I'm sure Protoss players would pay a lot of money to learn from you if it starts to work. My practice partner plays two gate vs. Zerg on the ladder and he doesn't have an issue hitting S rank
hes saying 2 gate is not the way to go, not that is unviable.
2 gate pvz is micro heavy and relies on good on the fly decision making... also very map dependant.
good build imo, just not the way to go for most ppl
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Ppl talking about 2 Gates Just make me laugh.,..from a scientific point of view 2 gates Is losing at 100% rate vs Z. The only way to play this mu Is FE and with It in use (+proper map) you get to 44-46% win rate. DA? ....surely its a great unit, problem with MOST thing that people don't realize Is timing. The timing for DA+storm or DA+archons Is too slow (game opening). You can make DA very fast but then you have no DPS to combo with and defend. Many ppl here make confusion between "science of SC" and amateur play (science of SC Is like a chess opening so it suppose to have correct scouting, correct micro, correct timing, correct decisione making and so on,from both side of course, while amateur play Is the other way around) There Is only a possible way to balanced and its called balance patch for PvZ Something that will never happens at this point (unless the best 10 p and the best 10 z in the world lock them in a room and start discussing/experimenting for some time+blizzard support of course).
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Oh... and probably you also need Flash in that room, just to make 100% sure that the potential changes don't affect the other mu.
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Are people really arguing for 2 gate in PvZ in here? In 2025? The thread is about why P underperforms at pro level. Not how I can get a cheap win here or there on low level ladder.
There was a time where 2 gate and 1 base was common PvZ at the pro level and P struggled just as hard, if not harder, against Z. 2 gate relies on Z being greedy and not accounting for it, or simply screwing up their decision making really badly. It's not an answer to PvZ. Pros have known this for 15+ years now.
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On January 11 2025 19:14 Giovanni8 wrote:
Ppl talking about 2 Gates Just make me laugh.,..from a scientific point of view 2 gates Is losing at 100% rate vs Z. The only way to play this mu Is FE and with It in use (+proper map) you get to 44-46% win rate. DA? ....surely its a great unit, problem with MOST thing that people don't realize Is timing. The timing for DA+storm or DA+archons Is too slow (game opening). You can make DA very fast but then you have no DPS to combo with and defend. Many ppl here make confusion between "science of SC" and amateur play (science of SC Is like a chess opening so it suppose to have correct scouting, correct micro, correct timing, correct decisione making and so on,from both side of course, while amateur play Is the other way around) There Is only a possible way to balanced and its called balance patch for PvZ Something that will never happens at this point (unless the best 10 p and the best 10 z in the world lock them in a room and start discussing/experimenting for some time+blizzard support of course).
This is probably true.
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My take on this as an A rank Protoss player that has played competitive 1v1 for 16 years (i know galaxies from the pros) is:
PvZ - On the highest level where mechanics are not an issue Protoss needs to constantly take risks to scout and deal eco damage to the Zerg to slow down the economic growth and prevent taking damage from a tech switch. Failing to scout or deal eco damage early usually ends up in defeat, because Zerg can outgrow faster, switch unit production faster and has more agile units. Also hive tech usually spells doom for the Protoss so they have to win before getting to that stage.
PvT - On the highest level where mechanics are not an issue Protoss needs to out-expand and not take early damage from vulture raids/mines on the map. While spread thin to defend against vultures Protoss also has to keep any timing attacks by Terran from reaching their base where winning a battle is unlikely. Stopping 200/200 Terran even with +2 or more bases can prove too difficult, because of how much better upgraded mech army is trading. Arbiters became useless due to improved mechanics and accurate EMP's which leaves Protoss players again taking risks with reavers/carrier switch/mass shuttle play. These type of plays require precision and near perfect execution at all times to prevent failure. Small mistakes in control will end up costing the entire game.
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EPT
