EPTWhy protoss always underperforms on pro level? - Page 4
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
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iloveav
Poland1478 Posts
Hard to do math with not knowing variables or equations. | ||
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TMNT
2807 Posts
On December 13 2024 00:16 iloveav wrote: Id say you would have to be at the top of the protoss players to have an answer that would be close to accurate. Hard to do math with not knowing variables or equations. Here's what a Protoss at the very very top has to say about it: "as soon as Hydra Den is built, it's already 7:3 for Zerg" | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13087 Posts
In particular I’ve never really seen Ps even experiment with DAs outside of trying to catch a muta switch. Mind control in theory is the most OP spell in the game. I get it’s hard to use but if you can snag a worker from another race it’s near impossible for the other player to win. And you could even use it to snag some lurkers from a Zerg to shred lings in the late game and mitigate the power of lings and swarm. There’s still a lot of untapped potential I reckon in Protoss but the players seems pretty stuck in their ways. I mean I get I’m a spud who can’t understand the game on their level but it seems crazy to me that a spell casting unit with so much potential has been sidelined forever by protosses. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands943 Posts
On December 13 2024 10:46 RowdierBob wrote: I don’t get why Protosses haven’t tried much to evolve PvZ since basically the cair first Bisu build was created so long ago. In particular I’ve never really seen Ps even experiment with DAs outside of trying to catch a muta switch. Mind control in theory is the most OP spell in the game. I get it’s hard to use but if you can snag a worker from another race it’s near impossible for the other player to win. And you could even use it to snag some lurkers from a Zerg to shred lings in the late game and mitigate the power of lings and swarm. There’s still a lot of untapped potential I reckon in Protoss but the players seems pretty stuck in their ways. I mean I get I’m a spud who can’t understand the game on their level but it seems crazy to me that a spell casting unit with so much potential has been sidelined forever by protosses. they have tried many different things which have worked for a while. but things ultimately get figured out everytime and the meta returns to standard. Watch more proleague and you can see a lot of experimentation and diversity. Or better, ultimate battle has craxy variety with its 9 game format. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On December 13 2024 10:46 RowdierBob wrote: Mind control in theory is the most OP spell in the game. I get it’s hard to use but if you can snag a worker from another race it’s near impossible for the other player to win. And you could even use it to snag some lurkers from a Zerg to shred lings in the late game and mitigate the power of lings and swarm. Mind controlling a worker only helps if you max your main race's supply with money to spare for a side race. Protoss almost never maxes out in PvZ, so a stolen drone would rarely help. They do max out in PvT, and a stolen SCV puts Terran on a clock, so I could see worker steals mattering in PvT. Historically there are some very late game PvZ's where mind control mattered to grind out a win when most or all of the map was mined out. But it's a very expensive ability on a very expensive unit, and stolen units have 0/0 upgrades so they fight poorly. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4120 Posts
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iloveav
Poland1478 Posts
On December 13 2024 03:53 TMNT wrote: Here's what a Protoss at the very very top has to say about it: https://youtu.be/uOYHO-VL6rM "as soon as Hydra Den is built, it's already 7:3 for Zerg" I dont know man. They are laughing a lot about it. I personally always thought that the Dragoon might be an issue. It is the first ranged unit that You can make from protoss and it is not particularly good at anything while having issues vs a lot of things. In tvz marines are the first ranged unit and it is common to play it. In zvp hydra is the first ranged unit and it is common to play it. In zvt, terrans are the ones that get the ranged unit faster (and cheaper) so it seems like zergs need a different approach than hydra. In tvp, marines are not the common way to play, but it is not the dragoon that actually kills them (thou it buys the time), it is tech units. I know this is not even remotely well thought out or researched, it is just what I always felt (feelings are not nesesarly logical). In summary, I always thought that the equation was: unit tech > unit numbers. BUT Unit numbers early > unit tech. Thats why I got issues with the goon boi. | ||
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4120 Posts
On December 14 2024 04:19 kidcrash wrote: It makes me sad that the community is so anti-patch and insists on waiting till the end of time for map makers to figure it out. Something as simple as making cannons and pylons into behaving like medium units while they warp in, so that explosive damage from hydras is blunted could be enough. You would still have units that have normal damage to defend versus a cannon rush. But the reality is this will never be fixed and protoss will underperform until the end of time unless we normalize maps like sparkle I suppose. It doesnt even have to be something that changes game rules. A simple 125/125 cannon will probably be of tremendous help, but as you say, the issue is not the particular change, but the community stance against a change | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia918 Posts
But that can also be adjusted by playing with the maps and rush distances. Or adding extra time by letting players see what's being produced in the eggs. | ||
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
On December 13 2024 10:46 RowdierBob wrote: I don’t get why Protosses haven’t tried much to evolve PvZ since basically the cair first Bisu build was created so long ago. In particular I’ve never really seen Ps even experiment with DAs outside of trying to catch a muta switch. Mind control in theory is the most OP spell in the game. I get it’s hard to use but if you can snag a worker from another race it’s near impossible for the other player to win. And you could even use it to snag some lurkers from a Zerg to shred lings in the late game and mitigate the power of lings and swarm. There’s still a lot of untapped potential I reckon in Protoss but the players seems pretty stuck in their ways. I mean I get I’m a spud who can’t understand the game on their level but it seems crazy to me that a spell casting unit with so much potential has been sidelined forever by protosses. It's cool to see that even after 20 years, this is a topic still worth talking about. I see Best do DA from time to time; funny enough, I rarely see Bisu do it. Protoss seems to do it when they are already ahead as a safeguard against mutas sniping your HT as you push with your deathball. I've always wondered if there was some synergy with Corsairs, I think there must be, since Bisu established that corsairs are essential in the matchup. I've always thought DT and detection abuse was something underrated in the early game. Zerg has to commit a lot to keep steady detection around Corsairs, perhaps DA mind control could be used to turn a key unit at a particular moment (like an overlord that would reveal your DT), and maelstrom to stop fleets of muta/scourge from killing your Corsairs. The contrast between biological and mech in maelstrom was always an interesting mechanic I never saw abused. Or freezing Hydra in certain moments. Maelstrom could be used in defense against Zerg if they ever tried to attack your cannons. It would be even more effective than storm, as the hydras would not dodge and be shredded up by your cannons. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1608 Posts
Because 1a2a3a -_- | ||
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TMNT
2807 Posts
On December 14 2024 18:12 HolySmokes wrote: It's cool to see that even after 20 years, this is a topic still worth talking about. I see Best do DA from time to time; funny enough, I rarely see Bisu do it. Protoss seems to do it when they are already ahead as a safeguard against mutas sniping your HT as you push with your deathball. I've always wondered if there was some synergy with Corsairs, I think there must be, since Bisu established that corsairs are essential in the matchup. I've always thought DT and detection abuse was something underrated in the early game. Zerg has to commit a lot to keep steady detection around Corsairs, perhaps DA mind control could be used to turn a key unit at a particular moment (like an overlord that would reveal your DT), and maelstrom to stop fleets of muta/scourge from killing your Corsairs. The contrast between biological and mech in maelstrom was always an interesting mechanic I never saw abused. Or freezing Hydra in certain moments. Maelstrom could be used in defense against Zerg if they ever tried to attack your cannons. It would be even more effective than storm, as the hydras would not dodge and be shredded up by your cannons. It seems like you don't play the game or watch it much. Mind control is a no-go at any competitive level. It's a meme spell you only use to toy with opponents much worse than you. Maelstrom is useful for sure, but you can only afford it later in the game, most likely when Protoss is at 130+ supply, so no it's not for catching Scourge or stopping Hydra bust. Its most useful function is to catch a group of Mutas when Zerg tries to Muta switch to snipe HTs in the mid game. Pros know that and will build DA if they can afford, like Bisu vs Hero on Deja Vu in the last ASL. When you see they don't use maelstrom, most of the times it's just because they can't afford it in that moment. | ||
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
On December 14 2024 23:35 TMNT wrote: It seems like you don't play the game or watch it much. Mind control is a no-go at any competitive level. It's a meme spell you only use to toy with opponents much worse than you. Maelstrom is useful for sure, but you can only afford it later in the game, most likely when Protoss is at 130+ supply, so no it's not for catching Scourge or stopping Hydra bust. Its most useful function is to catch a group of Mutas when Zerg tries to Muta switch to snipe HTs in the mid game. Pros know that and will build DA if they can afford, like Bisu vs Hero on Deja Vu in the last ASL. When you see they don't use maelstrom, most of the times it's just because they can't afford it in that moment. Damn man, feel like you totally missed the point of my post. I have played the game, was pretty competent I dare say, beat a lot of people I'd meet. You talk about the pros a lot, obviously the meta is important and I do like to keep up with the scene. The pros validate theory, but theory makes pros, it goes both ways. Pros show if something is viable, but viability in BW also depends on execution, which depends on the players. This is self-evident in the fact how players come along with new strats and change the game. Boxer, Oov, Savior, Bisu, for example. And honestly I think DA has a lot of potential in that regard. I talk about the DA a lot because I've had a lot of success in PvZ doing FE DA into Sair / DT play. If you tech quickly to maelstrom, skipping sair for the moment, and turtle a bit behind cannons with 2 DA, you are safe and have options vs muta and hydra. Then you can get Sair to continue scouting and develop air supremacy and add DT to the mix to make plays, and there's all kinds of stuff you can do. But obviously I wasn't a pro or anything, and if you could show me games where pros have tried this and failed, I'd love to see them. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On December 14 2024 05:24 M2 wrote: It doesnt even have to be something that changes game rules. A simple 125/125 cannon will probably be of tremendous help, but as you say, the issue is not the particular change, but the community stance against a change BW needs only 2 things to achieve real balance and gameplay: 1. Do something with cannons at least to help P vZ, the most ridiculous non mirror in BW, which is clearly Z favoured. 2. Small splash vs bio on spores, perhaps slightly bigger range, to open at least sometimes hydra tech in zvz. Over and beyond the above you can look at many other things, nukes, scouts etc etc but it's not needed for balance. But people will rather die on this sword and wait 20 more years for "maps". | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia918 Posts
I talk about the DA a lot because I've had a lot of success in PvZ doing FE DA into Sair / DT play. If you tech quickly to maelstrom, skipping sair for the moment, and turtle a bit behind cannons with 2 DA, you are safe and have options vs muta and hydra Sorry, but I'm afraid that you're on the "you don't know how much you don't know" part of the skill range. It is fine, everyone probably was there at some point. Can't exactly show you pro games trying this, because it is not good enough to even get off the ground. I'd recommend watching some pro's first person play for a bit, to see the execution difference, and what kind of timings they're playing against, and then think how that'd line up with this gameplan of yours. Creativity and evolving the meta is good, but keep in mind that modern strategies have a lot of constraints and opportunity costs on them. If you want a more specific answer: what you call "turtling a bit" will likely mean multiple minutes against a competent zerg, and will surrender all map control. Meanwhile, you wouldn't even be guaranteed to be safe. Mael is an enabler for splash damage, for the most part, to prevent dodging. If you don't have splash damage, it isn't particularly worth it - costs too much, doesn't last long enough, unit AI will prioritize attacking units that aren't stunned, etc. And while mael is an okay replacement for sairs in terms of dealing with large group of muta, it doesn't have the early and midgame scouting utility of corsair, or the capacity to pressure behind wall-ins.. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6626 Posts
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Soulforged
Latvia918 Posts
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TMNT
2807 Posts
That Best vs Soulkey game was last year. It was crazy. Think I posted it somewhere in the proleague megathread. To sum it up: at the end Best used an Overlord to drop-micro a probe to attack a sunken. That's how crazy it was. | ||
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