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On December 01 2024 13:37 G5 wrote:
I think historically Protoss has had the least stable build orders in the game and is the easiest race to take advantage of if you play whatever the current text-book standard is for the meta. Because of this, there is inherently more variance in build orders for Protoss players than other races and Protoss players inherently take more risks than Zergs and Terrans from within the meta game because of how the race is designed.
Although taking these risks can yield decent win rates in overall games, it's a hard thing to place bets on different build orders and be correct against the best players in the world enough times to win an ASL.
The top Zerg players have also denied the best Protoss players from potential titles many times. Due to the match up design, it's almost impossible to be ahead of Zerg in whatever the current meta is. Zerg is typically setting the meta and Protoss is trying to come up with solutions to whatever the current meta is of Zerg.
Once you get past the mechanics and execution of Starcraft, it mostly just comes down to decision making which usually involves understanding the current meta and what the probability is of what the opponent is doing or going to do and what is the risk assessment involved with what your response is going to be. Protoss players' decision making involves higher amounts of risk imo. Which again, makes it hard to run through an entire tournament like ASL and come out on top.
Basically
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On December 01 2024 13:37 G5 wrote:
I think historically Protoss has had the least stable build orders in the game and is the easiest race to take advantage of if you play whatever the current text-book standard is for the meta. Because of this, there is inherently more variance in build orders for Protoss players than other races and Protoss players inherently take more risks than Zergs and Terrans from within the meta game because of how the race is designed.
Although taking these risks can yield decent win rates in overall games, it's a hard thing to place bets on different build orders and be correct against the best players in the world enough times to win an ASL.
The top Zerg players have also denied the best Protoss players from potential titles many times. Due to the match up design, it's almost impossible to be ahead of Zerg in whatever the current meta is. Zerg is typically setting the meta and Protoss is trying to come up with solutions to whatever the current meta is of Zerg.
Once you get past the mechanics and execution of Starcraft, it mostly just comes down to decision making which usually involves understanding the current meta and what the probability is of what the opponent is doing or going to do and what is the risk assessment involved with what your response is going to be. Protoss players' decision making involves higher amounts of risk imo. Which again, makes it hard to run through an entire tournament like ASL and come out on top.
Summed up things perfectly.
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On November 30 2024 04:47 TMNT wrote:
Although it's nearly impossible to have a map that balances all 3 matchups, it's very easy to have matchup-specific maps, and it affects nothing with regards to the integrity of tournaments.
I don't know why people keep saying this, a lot of current maps are very close to 50% balance in all matchups, like Radeon
your favorite Protoss player didn't lose because Radeon has 51% ZvP win rate or whatever, he lost because Soulkey is just so much better than everyone else right now
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By the way, there was an interesting statistics posted in other thread here (https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/632651-is-soulkey-a-bonjwa-some-stats-and-graphs).
I wonder how Snow and Mini manage to maintain extremely high PvP win ratio, if that matchup (violatile protoss build orders x 2) is so random?
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Soulkey is currently the best player, but there is a structural issue with the ZvP matchup, which will forever make it hard for Protoss players to win a series against a Zerg.
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Netherlands5195 Posts
Because Bisu never peaked again, Jangbi stopped playing, Snow kept choking and Mini never got emotional support.
Also because  Hero kept hydra busting every Protoss in ASL.
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In terms of offline results - the booths are see-through, so Zerg players like Hero and Soulkey can look at the crowd and suss out what's happening. It's really quite unfair. They need one-way glass or to have the players facing away from the crowd or something. That's sc1.
Idk about sc2. I've been out of the loop for a while.
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Seems to me pro level isn’t imbalanced.
For some reason it looks like it’s harder to absolutely dominate everything and everyone as a Protoss. The closest we have had was Bisu.
Hard to say why. The winrate at pro level are pretty damn close to 50% in all matchups.
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Northern Ireland26194 Posts
On December 03 2024 04:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Seems to me pro level isn’t imbalanced.
For some reason it looks like it’s harder to absolutely dominate everything and everyone as a Protoss. The closest we have had was Bisu.
Hard to say why. The winrate at pro level are pretty damn close to 50% in all matchups.
I think because it somewhat evens out when you have expert PvTers who struggle a bit in PvZ, or a Bisu who is no mug at PvT but earned his biggest reputation as a PvZ god.
So overall, the balance isn’t too bad, but individually it makes Toss players less likely to be consistently at the business end of tournaments.
I’m curious as to why that is, Zerg and Terran seem to have more players who are well-rounded across matchups, but hey my intuition may be off, I’m far from a BW expert!
Completely arbitrary numbers but say if you have 2 equally sized groups of tournament Toss players, one has a 70% win vT, and 30% vZ, the other the opposite. You’ll still get an even overall win rate, but to actually win tournaments you’re kind of relying on kind brackets.
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because zerg always has options of hydra busts & protoss can't really scout it at all, so the entire early game is a freaking minefield where protoss can lose & zerg really cant
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On December 03 2024 11:27 Kyle8 wrote:
because zerg always has options of hydra busts & protoss can't really scout it at all, so the entire early game is a freaking minefield where protoss can lose & zerg really cant
Just make more maps that have high ground naturals. Protosses complained that it makes turtle four base Zerg too strong, so make it a three player map where far natural is too hard to hold (same distance from you and your enemy)
It has the added benefit of easier defense vs. m&m busts. Then just add a lot of overlord hiding places that Protoss can clear out with corsairs and Terran can't clear until valkyries.
Radeon is already close to perfect because you have to hydra bust up and down which favors cannon range (sometimes you can't even get the forge without committing on cannons) and it has good overlord hiding spots and an undroppable ring around the main to make elevators harder
But three player version of Tempest would be the best
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On December 02 2024 18:45 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2024 04:47 TMNT wrote:
Although it's nearly impossible to have a map that balances all 3 matchups, it's very easy to have matchup-specific maps, and it affects nothing with regards to the integrity of tournaments.
I don't know why people keep saying this, a lot of current maps are very close to 50% balance in all matchups, like Radeon your favorite Protoss player didn't lose because Radeon has 51% ZvP win rate or whatever, he lost because Soulkey is just so much better than everyone else right now
"Current" though. But we're talking about 25 years.
The most played maps in the modern era is Polypoid and it reads 46.9% PvZ and 48.3% PvT.
The second most is Vermeer and it's 47.8% PvZ and 44.0% PvT.
Fighting Spirit is 46.2% PvZ and 48.3% PvT by the way.
Radeon is now standing at 49.3% PvZ and 47.9% PvT. We can say it's an improved Vermeer. But keep in mind that Soma being in the military is probably the reason PvZ on Radeon is close to 50%.
The common denominator here is that on all those maps Protoss has a sub 50% win rate in all matchups (with some actually closer to 45%). It also makes no sense for the supposedly strong matchup of Protoss (PvT) being less than 50% on the most standard maps.
You can say every map is "close to 50%" but it doesn't mean much if it's always 52 for one race and 48 for the other.
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On December 03 2024 19:55 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2024 18:45 iopq wrote:On November 30 2024 04:47 TMNT wrote:
Although it's nearly impossible to have a map that balances all 3 matchups, it's very easy to have matchup-specific maps, and it affects nothing with regards to the integrity of tournaments.
I don't know why people keep saying this, a lot of current maps are very close to 50% balance in all matchups, like Radeon your favorite Protoss player didn't lose because Radeon has 51% ZvP win rate or whatever, he lost because Soulkey is just so much better than everyone else right now "Current" though. But we're talking about 25 years. The most played maps in the modern era is Polypoid and it reads 46.9% PvZ and 48.3% PvT. The second most is Vermeer and it's 47.8% PvZ and 44.0% PvT. Fighting Spirit is 46.2% PvZ and 48.3% PvT by the way. Radeon is now standing at 49.3% PvZ and 47.9% PvT. We can say it's an improved Vermeer. But keep in mind that Soma being in the military is probably the reason PvZ on Radeon is close to 50%. The common denominator here is that on all those maps Protoss has a sub 50% win rate in all matchups (with some actually closer to 45%). It also makes no sense for the supposedly strong matchup of Protoss (PvT) being less than 50% on the most standard maps. You can say every map is "close to 50%" but it doesn't mean much if it's always 52 for one race and 48 for the other.
IDK man to me 49 50 51 just speaks about Player performance in general. Those maps u mention Poly Fs and Veermer are really good map for pvz. You can ask any protoss. Gotta be careful with those metrics anyway. Look at Blitz Y. 38% win rate for zerg yet Soulkey clean the floor with Snow and Mini. I wasnt around in the Island maps era but i imagine the win rate for zvp was pretty low also. And you asking for such maps is kinda weird. There has been maps totally standard that favored pvz like central plains. Crossing field etc.
now Radeon is actually a fantastic map for protoss. Very easy to defend your expos. Very easy to attack your opponent third and put pressure into his fourth. Saying it is only that close cuz of Soma is playing the game of if if. Well if Jangbi . Kal and Much didnt retire maybe Zerg will not be so dominant.
And the reality is that the maps last seasons are really bad for zerg. Specially for those that arent as good as Soulkey.
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Cuz hydra good unit, don't you watch jinjin vids?
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I wish the community wasn't so stubborn when it comes to the idea of a balance patch. Protoss has been underperforming for way too long now.
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On December 04 2024 02:03 kidcrash wrote:
I wish the community wasn't so stubborn when it comes to the idea of a balance patch. Protoss has been underperforming for way too long now.
There will never be (and should never be) a balance patch. Maps are enough.
Assuming there is, who decides? Who tests it? Do you want to end up like sc2 with patches every other day? And P is broken there too. No easy amswer to such basic questions means no patch can be made.
I d rather blizzard/Microsoft worka on delivering what was promised, maybe a remaster 2.0 for the anniversary is in the works like war3 reforged just got.
Overall I agree with eon, losing jangbi, kal (much possibly) and having snow struggle a bit offline, combined with soulkey peaking makes it look dire. Overall P a bit lower in matchup balance too but realistically we haven't had a lot of good P since the 6 dragon era.
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Maps. Also I think the obsession of one map that must be ok in multiple matches is unnecessary.
#ForceMapsToMatches! I guess players having ability to veto a map is kind of that but I don't think it goes far enough.
For patch dreamers consider this:
A map IS a patch already!
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Well first off it's not like Protoss hasn't won any ASLs. It's just that the potentials (Mini, Rain, Snow, Bisu) often choke under critical tough situations. Game is hard.
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Yes, yes, it just so happens that the biggest offline chokers are protoss players. Pure luck, nothing else.
We can also assume that map creators have bad intentions for protoss, since the balance can be solved with maps, but protoss underperforms, right?
There is over 40% of unique protoss players on ladder, however only less than 30% protosses on S rank. With such big protoss population you could expect to see the most protoss winners / bonjwas, however reality is different.
Since I am a protoss player, my vision could be fogged though.
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On December 04 2024 15:48 Bonyth wrote:
Yes, yes, it just so happens that the biggest offline chokers are protoss players. Pure luck, nothing else.
We can also assume that map creators have bad intentions for protoss, since the balance can be solved with maps, but protoss underperforms, right?
There is over 40% of unique protoss players on ladder, however only less than 30% protosses on S rank. With such big protoss population you could expect to see the most protoss winners / bonjwas, however reality is different.
Since I am a protoss player, my vision could be fogged though.
They tried to nerf terran with maps but it ended up affecting toss the most. They tried to nerf zerg but ended up nerfing protoss the most. Map makers and map selection for each season tends to end up hurting protoss the most. protoss is bad on gimmick maps. protoss needs standard maps or two player maps. Monty Hall and kickback ruined it for toss this season.
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EPT
