EPTWhy protoss always underperforms on pro level? - Page 3
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FlaShFTW
United States10483 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1265 Posts
On December 05 2024 01:16 FlaShFTW wrote: I really believe that 3p maps are some of the best and most balanced maps. I'm also ok with more 2p maps being pushed more (just make the rush distance long enough where gas steal in PvT isn't automatic please lol). 3 player maps tend to favor protoss shuttle focused play or arb play with T base usually exposed from more sides compared to a 4 player or 2 player map with usually 2-3 exposed sides. Rush distance also tends to be good. Apocalypse played into this well and probably is the best 3 player map. I want to say Neo Sylphid is as good but stats imply it isnt. Perfect map set for me would be Radeon, Retro, Vermeer/polypoid, Eclipse, Neo Dark Origin, Apocalypse, Dominator. Hope we dont get a gimmick map next season. | ||
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kidcrash
United States623 Posts
On December 04 2024 02:15 WGT-Baal wrote: There will never be (and should never be) a balance patch. Maps are enough. Assuming there is, who decides? Who tests it? Do you want to end up like sc2 with patches every other day? And P is broken there too. No easy amswer to such basic questions means no patch can be made. I d rather blizzard/Microsoft worka on delivering what was promised, maybe a remaster 2.0 for the anniversary is in the works like war3 reforged just got. Overall I agree with eon, losing jangbi, kal (much possibly) and having snow struggle a bit offline, combined with soulkey peaking makes it look dire. Overall P a bit lower in matchup balance too but realistically we haven't had a lot of good P since the 6 dragon era. So my question is, if maps are enough, how much longer do we have to wait for map makers to figure it out? I won't deny that the evolution of maps has created progress but have we reached the end of that progress? Is there a ceiling to the amount of balance a map pool can achieve? As far as the patch discussion goes, anything even remotely close to what SC2 is experiencing would be unacceptable. I would like to see one small subtle change and that's it. With a long hard discussion and analysis of that change before it was implemented. I could throw out a couple suggestions but I don't think anyone wants to see this devolve into a theory crafting thread. It's just sad to see protoss underperform for so long | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8107 Posts
On December 05 2024 01:16 FlaShFTW wrote: I really believe that 3p maps are some of the best and most balanced maps. I'm also ok with more 2p maps being pushed more (just make the rush distance long enough where gas steal in PvT isn't automatic please lol). Isn’t it that if the rush distance is long, you end up like in a cross spawn situation on a 4 players map where 12 nexus becomes a bit of an auto win? | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1265 Posts
On December 05 2024 05:07 kidcrash wrote: So my question is, if maps are enough, how much longer do we have to wait for map makers to figure it out? I won't deny that the evolution of maps has created progress but have we reached the end of that progress? Is there a ceiling to the amount of balance a map pool can achieve? As far as the patch discussion goes, anything even remotely close to what SC2 is experiencing would be unacceptable. I would like to see one small subtle change and that's it. With a long hard discussion and analysis of that change before it was implemented. I could throw out a couple suggestions but I don't think anyone wants to see this devolve into a theory crafting thread. It's just sad to see protoss underperform for so long map makers intentionally like to introduce unbalanced maps to "see players adapt and play differently." map makers and asl/ssl staff have too much power in that sense. pros dont like these maps. pros like the standard balanced maps. monty was immediately removed from proleagues and sponsor matches after ssl. They keep less liked maps like minstel and kick back in because they are likely to still be in next season. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8107 Posts
On December 05 2024 19:54 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: map makers intentionally like to introduce unbalanced maps to "see players adapt and play differently." map makers and asl/ssl staff have too much power in that sense. pros dont like these maps. pros like the standard balanced maps. monty was immediately removed from proleagues and sponsor matches after ssl. They keep less liked maps like minstel and kick back in because they are likely to still be in next season. I don’t think pros liking maps is the only metric we should go by. Monty has created absolutely amazing games, with unorthodox strategies, and unexpected twists. If SC is to survive it really has to be fun to watch. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1265 Posts
On December 05 2024 21:32 Biff The Understudy wrote: I don’t think pros liking maps is the only metric we should go by. Monty has created absolutely amazing games, with unorthodox strategies, and unexpected twists. If SC is to survive it really has to be fun to watch. except protoss winrate on monty was worse than zerg's on troy. such maps ruin the competitive integrity by being way too unbalanced. and you only get a really good game on them once every 20+ games. on more standard maps you get better games much more often. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8107 Posts
On December 05 2024 21:58 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: except protoss winrate on monty was worse than zerg's on troy. such maps ruin the competitive integrity by being way too unbalanced. and you only get a really good game on them once every 20+ games. on more standard maps you get better games much more often. Ye, i mean if they are going to include a map that is fun but has a flimsy balance they should make sure the map pool as a whole rectifies that. I think at that point we should look at the balance of a map pool rather than specific maps. | ||
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iopq
United States1113 Posts
On December 05 2024 02:26 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: 3 player maps tend to favor protoss shuttle focused play or arb play with T base usually exposed from more sides compared to a 4 player or 2 player map with usually 2-3 exposed sides. Rush distance also tends to be good. Apocalypse played into this well and probably is the best 3 player map. I want to say Neo Sylphid is as good but stats imply it isnt. Perfect map set for me would be Radeon, Retro, Vermeer/polypoid, Eclipse, Neo Dark Origin, Apocalypse, Dominator. Hope we dont get a gimmick map next season. People always sleeping on Tempest. Very difficult (but not impossible) to 973 on that map, harder to m&m bust because of uphill shots People literally complained to me that it makes it too easy for the Zerg to take four bases. Just take your own bases as Protoss! | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1265 Posts
On December 08 2024 00:46 iopq wrote: People always sleeping on Tempest. Very difficult (but not impossible) to 973 on that map, harder to m&m bust because of uphill shots People literally complained to me that it makes it too easy for the Zerg to take four bases. Just take your own bases as Protoss! also has some of the best games I have seen. Tempest is an amazing map. Artosis has an amazing bisu vs jaedong game on his channel on that map. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7000 Posts
On December 08 2024 01:56 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: also has some of the best games I have seen. Tempest is an amazing map. Artosis has an amazing bisu vs jaedong game on his channel on that map. Tempest is one of the most fun maps introduced in recent times. The problem is the map cycle last not that long and next season they already introducing new ones. TvP on that map was always super fun to watch aswell. I remember so many great tvp games from that season. Specially from Rush. | ||
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TMNT
3229 Posts
On December 08 2024 00:46 iopq wrote: People always sleeping on Tempest. Very difficult (but not impossible) to 973 on that map, harder to m&m bust because of uphill shots People literally complained to me that it makes it too easy for the Zerg to take four bases. Just take your own bases as Protoss! The people who complained about Tempest are? Do you mean progamers or foreigners? As far as I now Protoss in ASL didn't ban that map and Mini even picked it in the semi vs Effort. | ||
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Kraekkling
713 Posts
In general, when making maps, it’s easy to end up with a balance of T > Z > P >= T. However, it’s difficult to predict how the balance will play out for any given map. I know ASL map makers struggle to get maps sufficiently tested. It’s not feasible for them to have pro players play enough games to properly evaluate balance. Moreover, whenever a change is introduced during testing, the old data sample essentially becomes obsolete. Additionally, most of the testing is done by players in the 2000-2200 MMR range, but balance at that level is obviously different compared to 2600 MMR. As a result, much of the map balancing relies less on statistics and more on player feedback and vibes. This inevitably leads to biased evaluations. Finally, there’s significant pressure on map makers to churn out around six new maps several times a year. These maps are expected to be balanced, fun to play, distinct from other maps, and somehow both experimental and not experimental-depending on who you ask. These are inherently contradictory expectations, especially given the limitations of the map-making tools. I think the current approach of introducing mostly new maps every season could use an update. Out of 7 maps in the pool, do we really need 5 new ones? Why not select 4 “old and reliable” maps from the past ten years, add 2 new ones, and include one experimental map (whether new or old)? Or something similar... | ||
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TT1
Canada10045 Posts
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TMNT
3229 Posts
Foreign players simply don't have the time and conditions to practice BW to reach the level where Terran and Zerg shine more. | ||
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SiarX
133 Posts
On December 09 2024 08:43 TMNT wrote: Dewalt is only a foreign player in name though. Him and the Chinese players. Why? They do not live in Korea, right? | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1265 Posts
On December 09 2024 05:04 Kraekkling wrote: We’ve had many map pools that favored Terran. We’ve also had quite a few that were good for Zerg. On average, though, maps clearly put Protoss at a disadvantage. In general, when making maps, it’s easy to end up with a balance of T > Z > P >= T. However, it’s difficult to predict how the balance will play out for any given map. I know ASL map makers struggle to get maps sufficiently tested. It’s not feasible for them to have pro players play enough games to properly evaluate balance. Moreover, whenever a change is introduced during testing, the old data sample essentially becomes obsolete. Additionally, most of the testing is done by players in the 2000-2200 MMR range, but balance at that level is obviously different compared to 2600 MMR. As a result, much of the map balancing relies less on statistics and more on player feedback and vibes. This inevitably leads to biased evaluations. Finally, there’s significant pressure on map makers to churn out around six new maps several times a year. These maps are expected to be balanced, fun to play, distinct from other maps, and somehow both experimental and not experimental-depending on who you ask. These are inherently contradictory expectations, especially given the limitations of the map-making tools. I think the current approach of introducing mostly new maps every season could use an update. Out of 7 maps in the pool, do we really need 5 new ones? Why not select 4 “old and reliable” maps from the past ten years, add 2 new ones, and include one experimental map (whether new or old)? Or something similar... about a month before qualifiers the new candidate maps are released for testing by the pros, who are the very first to play them. They adjust the maps based on pro input, and eventually select the maps for starleague based on the play data. The maps usually see about 100+ games each before the final selection is made. this is usually enough to determine if a map is good or bad for the pros. Often AsL will still pick a map that is bad or disliked by the players. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3492 Posts
On December 05 2024 05:07 kidcrash wrote: So my question is, if maps are enough, how much longer do we have to wait for map makers to figure it out? I won't deny that the evolution of maps has created progress but have we reached the end of that progress? Is there a ceiling to the amount of balance a map pool can achieve? As far as the patch discussion goes, anything even remotely close to what SC2 is experiencing would be unacceptable. I would like to see one small subtle change and that's it. With a long hard discussion and analysis of that change before it was implemented. I could throw out a couple suggestions but I don't think anyone wants to see this devolve into a theory crafting thread. It's just sad to see protoss underperform for so long I m not sure if it was rhetorical to introduce your 2nd paragraph, which was good. But for your question it is well known how to make good P maps, see ASL 5. In general I agree with the point that was made before in this thread, and others, of having MU specific map options in one season. So say you get absolutely broken map like Monty Hall is PvZ. It s ok if you don't play it for PvZ. And instead you get another one. Of course this would require possibly longer map rotation (maps staying longer) and more data. But note also that a lot of the worst maps, stats wise,in recent ASL were remakes of already garbage maps from way back. Arkanoid (actually a fun 2v2 map, but not so good 1v1) , Monty Hall... So it was really surprising they were broken. But it s hard on the mapmakers to pump new maps every season. Also agree tempest was a great map | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4168 Posts
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Soulforged
Latvia973 Posts
Current rush distance is more or less balanced around T busting zerg sunkens. Longer rush distance would...boost 12 nex, help with cannon warp in time (speed hydras hatch and cross the map as fast as cannons warp, main to natural). Would also help with nexus before forge builds, specially if there's a possibility of a full wall. Specially if it was a 2p map, then you could probably still have a normal rush distance to 3rd, allowing for gate first zealot pressure in some form. Or simply more 2p maps in general, P does well on those. Map splits PvZ, gas steals and carriers PvT... | ||
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