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Just my impressions, when those units can be useful, which I got after playing, as well as watching a lot of pro videos. Feel free to correct if I am wrong.
Dark archon
Great counter to mutas: maelstorm prevents them from sniping HTs. Popular even on pro level. However DAs are almost never built for other purposes than anti-muta. Maelstorm does not work on non-zerg units, and it does not make sense to freeze anything except muts and ultras. And ultras are rarely seen in ZvP. Although it can be used on a big clump of hydras and lurkers, too.
Mind control has only single very niche use: steal SCV when protoss get maxed, to put terran on death clock timer. Does not work on pro level, though.
In theory mind control could also be used to counter shuttle drops in PvP, but games mostly end before someone can get a DA and research spell. Also it hard counters carriers and BCs, but both are not built vs protoss...
Feedback is sometimes used on defilers and high templars. Very cost efficient counter, though not popular on pro level.
Queen
Popular great counter to mech on pro level - since only pros have enough apm to micro multiple queens. Killing tanks with spawn broodlings is extremely cost efficient, because queens often survive. And there is no direct counter to them for terran (irradiates and goliaths do not kill them fast enough to save tanks, EMP needs a very lucky hit) except rushing zerg before losing too many tanks.
Spawn broodlings is also seen sometimes in very late ZvP, when protoss builds extremely well defended bases (cannons, reavers, HTs with full energy, archons). The only way to break them is super cost inefficient attacks or guardians switch. But storms counters guardians. Mutas cannot snipe HTs because of archons. So queens become a logical choice. Once HTs are gone, even if protoss can afford restarting production of corsairs, they will not be able to kill guardians before it is too late.
Ensnare is used for countering mass wraiths, if terran player`s micro is too good and wraiths are too annoying. Ensnared wraiths cannot cloak and get killed by mutas very easily.
Also rarely seen in muta wars. Spending resources on queen and ensnare instead of more mutalisks is risky, unless you already have huge army, but it pays off later: ensnaring stack of mutalisks basically guarantees a victory.
Parasite is hardly ever seen. Maybe if zerg for some reason has a queen with energy and nothing else to do, or needs to see where HTs are on super defended base in very late game.
In theory can be good vs mech, giving vision of the Terran mech army, and to put on a SV, since a SV already costs more than a queen, so for 75 energy you've either forced Terran to throw away a unit that costs more than queen or giv yourself a vision advantage.
Guardian
Guardians can be very good in very late ZvP - see above.
Also a couple of guardians can annoy protoss with probes harassing behind mineral lines, once corsairs are gone.
Sometimes guardian rush can surprise and destroy terran, since they ignore turrets due to very long range and twoshot marines. Fast guardians also can protect against siege tank pushes, at least in theory.
Devourer
Generally useless unit. In theory their acid spores are great help in muta wars, but sadly ZvZ almost never reachs hive tech.
In theory they also counter carriers+corsairs thanks to high armor and buffing mutalisks attacks, but who would build carriers in PvZ...
Ghost
Trash unit, except for very rarely seen nuke rush build or equally rare nuking of tank lines in late TvT.
In theory their lockdown is perfect counter to BCs and carriers, but cost, research time, vulnerability and most importantly micro demands result in everyone skipping ghosts.
Scout
Trash unit. They get built only to humiliate inferior players.
Infested terran
A joke, not an unit. Never seen in competitive games, the only exception were decades old ZvP games on one old weird map, which had neutral command CC, so zerg could infest it, and they were surprisingly strong in that matchup. But it is no longer actual.
P.S. Imho it is a pity that arbiters are not seen in late PvZ. Cloak is annoying since it forces zerg to always have many overlords with his army (and lose them, if he is forced to retreat after the battle). Surprise recall could bypass standard sunken-lurker defense and wreck zerg tiny base with all their precious tech structures, as well as some production: late game protoss army has very high damage output. And archons or stasis on ramp would make counterattacking really hard.
P.P.S. On island maps things are different. Protoss can use DAs mind controlling shuttles, and ensnare and devourers used against corsairs. But those maps are not competitive anymore unfortunately.
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I would disagree with Devourer part, I think it is actually by design a very solid units on its own. The only reason it doesn't get used enough or very much at all is because of defiler make zerg ground units way too cost effective.
I think in some iteration of strategy that queen is almost a must in Z v T in some cases, it just does enough damage to make terran has to lift the CC then you steal it to deny them a comeback chance or basically a huge economy blow.
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I think for the longest time as a kid I try to come up with build that involves dark archon to mind control their shuttle with 2 reavers in it , LMAO, it was fun when it worked, which is very very rare, LMAO.
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The scout is a great unit imo and there are slightly viable openings with them PvZ but they're too expensive. If speed came with them or you didn't need a fleet beacon to be upgraded, they'd be used more.
DA's, Queens, and Devourers are the best underutilized units imo.
Infested Terrans are gimmick units but they would be better if they cost less and acted like Banelings where they explode and kill everything around them on death. Right now, they only do damage if they connect with their Intended target which basically renders them as useless as a unit can be.
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/cries in dweb
Maybe with all the scourge/5muta meta and turtling behind walls from Z's we'd see it more, but jesus christ, the thing is a 500/400 with beacon included, takes 125 energy and lasts only like 15 seconds - slightly longer than it takes to make one worker...
And the energy takes so long to gather, that you could start beacon after your last sair is done, and by the time the web is done, the corsair will be a few seconds away from the cast.
For contrast: dark swarm lasts 2.5x longer, has a much larger radius, is not as easy to counter as "move out of it", and is free energy-wise.
Kinda want to see a scouting corsair in at least PvT, though - you can go from nothing to corsair across the map in 1:30-ish, and it takes around 2:20+ for an obs(shuttle first scouts can be faster, this is why we see shuttle scout sometimes).
Could be used for either dweb transition later, or just the solo sair to distract turrets for the shuttle.
But fitting it in is very awkward...maybe you could delay robo/obs if very fast scouting lets you avoid having to pull back goons against possible drops, zoning out the vultures longer. But if you try to use that tempo advantage to e.g. grab a faster third, on most maps it'd still be hard for T to mine up one of the routes and use it to siege up nearby for free.
Maybe you could use it to grab a 5:30-ish 3rd on no robo vs 1 fac armory builds, but everyone is going 2 fac these days, anyway.
And you can't really deny a mine triple from Terran with this, best you'd get is an early heads up to go greedy yourself.
Fun fact: it takes comparable time to get dweb(and necessary energy) on 3 sairs, as it is to get robo -> obs -> shuttle -> reaver -> fly the slow shuttle across.
Of course, you'd still need an observer when going sairs, and sairs are almost dead weight for 4 minutes...
Wish the spell itself got a buff.
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i saw the ULTRA DEVO (HEAVY GAS UNIT + HEAVY MINERAL UNIT = COST BALANCED strong comp) combo used on artosis' stream many times
ultra wipes out ground and devo wipes out air, its the ultimate a move wombo
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On December 19 2024 09:21 G5 wrote:
The scout is a great unit imo and there are slightly viable openings with them PvZ but they're too expensive. If speed came with them or you didn't need a fleet beacon to be upgraded, they'd be used more.
DA's, Queens, and Devourers are the best underutilized units imo.
Infested Terrans are gimmick units but they would be better if they cost less and acted like Banelings where they explode and kill everything around them on death. Right now, they only do damage if they connect with their Intended target which basically renders them as useless as a unit can be.
I love scout, especially the few time people block their probe in with pylon, so they can stack scout like muta stack micro, is super cool
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On December 19 2024 09:21 G5 wrote:
The scout is a great unit imo and there are slightly viable openings with them PvZ but they're too expensive. If speed came with them or you didn't need a fleet beacon to be upgraded, they'd be used more.
DA's, Queens, and Devourers are the best underutilized units imo.
Infested Terrans are gimmick units but they would be better if they cost less and acted like Banelings where they explode and kill everything around them on death. Right now, they only do damage if they connect with their Intended target which basically renders them as useless as a unit can be.
Great unit, really? What openings are viable? Corsairs are much stronger vs zerg, and even then do not last long.
On December 19 2024 12:22 TT1 wrote:
i saw the ULTRA DEVO (HEAVY GAS UNIT + HEAVY MINERAL UNIT = COST BALANCED strong comp) combo used on artosis' stream many times
ultra wipes out ground and devo wipes out air, its the ultimate a move wombo
But ultras cannot wipe out protoss armies... And do not do much vs upgraded terran army without defiler support.
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On December 19 2024 17:26 SiarX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2024 09:21 G5 wrote:
The scout is a great unit imo and there are slightly viable openings with them PvZ but they're too expensive. If speed came with them or you didn't need a fleet beacon to be upgraded, they'd be used more.
DA's, Queens, and Devourers are the best underutilized units imo.
Infested Terrans are gimmick units but they would be better if they cost less and acted like Banelings where they explode and kill everything around them on death. Right now, they only do damage if they connect with their Intended target which basically renders them as useless as a unit can be. Great unit, really? What openings are viable? Corsairs are much stronger vs zerg, and even then do not last long. Show nested quote +On December 19 2024 12:22 TT1 wrote:
i saw the ULTRA DEVO (HEAVY GAS UNIT + HEAVY MINERAL UNIT = COST BALANCED strong comp) combo used on artosis' stream many times
ultra wipes out ground and devo wipes out air, its the ultimate a move wombo But ultras cannot wipe out protoss armies... And do not do much vs upgraded terran army without defiler support.
I think scout was viable for a while in early time, I do recall when people figure out if you jail a probe between pylon/mineral you can stack them like muta, it was used for a while. But that was so long ago, which means people were not as good as now.
Utral do wipe out protoss ground, cause it tanks so much zerglings clean floor like nothing. SC2 zerglings are so dogshit.
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On December 19 2024 18:32 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2024 17:26 SiarX wrote:On December 19 2024 09:21 G5 wrote:
The scout is a great unit imo and there are slightly viable openings with them PvZ but they're too expensive. If speed came with them or you didn't need a fleet beacon to be upgraded, they'd be used more.
DA's, Queens, and Devourers are the best underutilized units imo.
Infested Terrans are gimmick units but they would be better if they cost less and acted like Banelings where they explode and kill everything around them on death. Right now, they only do damage if they connect with their Intended target which basically renders them as useless as a unit can be. Great unit, really? What openings are viable? Corsairs are much stronger vs zerg, and even then do not last long. On December 19 2024 12:22 TT1 wrote:
i saw the ULTRA DEVO (HEAVY GAS UNIT + HEAVY MINERAL UNIT = COST BALANCED strong comp) combo used on artosis' stream many times
ultra wipes out ground and devo wipes out air, its the ultimate a move wombo But ultras cannot wipe out protoss armies... And do not do much vs upgraded terran army without defiler support. I think scout was viable for a while in early time, I do recall when people figure out if you jail a probe between pylon/mineral you can stack them like muta, it was used for a while. But that was so long ago, which means people were not as good as now. Utral do wipe out protoss ground, cause it tanks so much zerglings clean floor like nothing. SC2 zerglings are so dogshit.
There is a reason why ultralings are rarely seen against protoss. Reavers, archons, even mass dragoons murder them. And storms clear lings. Hydras are much more cost efficient that ultras.
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On December 19 2024 22:17 SiarX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2024 18:32 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:On December 19 2024 17:26 SiarX wrote:On December 19 2024 09:21 G5 wrote:
The scout is a great unit imo and there are slightly viable openings with them PvZ but they're too expensive. If speed came with them or you didn't need a fleet beacon to be upgraded, they'd be used more.
DA's, Queens, and Devourers are the best underutilized units imo.
Infested Terrans are gimmick units but they would be better if they cost less and acted like Banelings where they explode and kill everything around them on death. Right now, they only do damage if they connect with their Intended target which basically renders them as useless as a unit can be. Great unit, really? What openings are viable? Corsairs are much stronger vs zerg, and even then do not last long. On December 19 2024 12:22 TT1 wrote:
i saw the ULTRA DEVO (HEAVY GAS UNIT + HEAVY MINERAL UNIT = COST BALANCED strong comp) combo used on artosis' stream many times
ultra wipes out ground and devo wipes out air, its the ultimate a move wombo But ultras cannot wipe out protoss armies... And do not do much vs upgraded terran army without defiler support. I think scout was viable for a while in early time, I do recall when people figure out if you jail a probe between pylon/mineral you can stack them like muta, it was used for a while. But that was so long ago, which means people were not as good as now. Utral do wipe out protoss ground, cause it tanks so much zerglings clean floor like nothing. SC2 zerglings are so dogshit. There is a reason why ultralings are rarely seen against protoss. Reavers, archons, even mass dragoons murder them. And storms clear lings. Hydras are much more cost efficient that ultras.
Very true. I think the most efficient combo against Protoss late game is lurker, ling, defiler with some hydras sprinkled in as needed.
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Queens and guardians are even more popular in non pro games!
You don't need much APM to use them because you can queue the broodling and an automatic retreat path with Shift. Because non pro Terran pushes are slower it gives Zerg more time to do this.
I agree on Arbiters. I think Best did a few recalls in ASL vs Zerg on a hard to navigate by ground map.
Holy World SE fun map. We need more neutral CCs.
1 Queen should be used to infest CCs when possible (pros don't do this because Terrans cry it's BM apparently I've heard).
Maelstrom DOES work on ALL biological units.
Liquipedia
https://liquipedia.net › starcraft › Maelstrom
Aug 6, 2022 — Maelstrom is an area of effect ability that stuns all Biological units in a three-matrix radius (one matrix being a thirty-two pixel square).
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Arbiter is imo underused vs zerg in late game situations... very gas heavy in fact, but if u manage to play a goon heavy composition with decent upgrades into the midgame, getting arbiter at arround 20:00 min mark is not crazy at all... u have to plan ahead very early and not waste gas units, but makes a lot of sense, if u add +5 sairs from earlier, shit becomes imba if controlled well.
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On December 21 2024 20:49 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:Queens and guardians are even more popular in non pro games! You don't need much APM to use them because you can queue the broodling and an automatic retreat path with Shift. Because non pro Terran pushes are slower it gives Zerg more time to do this. I agree on Arbiters. I think Best did a few recalls in ASL vs Zerg on a hard to navigate by ground map. Holy World SE fun map. We need more neutral CCs. 1 Queen should be used to infest CCs when possible (pros don't do this because Terrans cry it's BM apparently I've heard). Maelstrom DOES work on ALL biological units. Liquipedia https://liquipedia.net › starcraft › Maelstrom Aug 6, 2022 — Maelstrom is an area of effect ability that stuns all Biological units in a three-matrix radius (one matrix being a thirty-two pixel square).
WTF, that cry must be dumb...... I remember watching the games back then this was a legit strategy cause it would force terran to lift their 2nd expansion and get it with queen while tech up to hive is like the master play, not BM at all
I only get pissed when my friend mass scout vs my noob ass like Snow did to artosis :D
But man scout is awesome as a unit tho, kinda cool
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On December 22 2024 13:07 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2024 20:49 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:Queens and guardians are even more popular in non pro games! You don't need much APM to use them because you can queue the broodling and an automatic retreat path with Shift. Because non pro Terran pushes are slower it gives Zerg more time to do this. I agree on Arbiters. I think Best did a few recalls in ASL vs Zerg on a hard to navigate by ground map. Holy World SE fun map. We need more neutral CCs. 1 Queen should be used to infest CCs when possible (pros don't do this because Terrans cry it's BM apparently I've heard). Maelstrom DOES work on ALL biological units. Liquipedia https://liquipedia.net › starcraft › Maelstrom Aug 6, 2022 — Maelstrom is an area of effect ability that stuns all Biological units in a three-matrix radius (one matrix being a thirty-two pixel square). WTF, that cry must be dumb...... I remember watching the games back then this was a legit strategy cause it would force terran to lift their 2nd expansion and get it with queen while tech up to hive is like the master play, not BM at all I only get pissed when my friend mass scout vs my noob ass like Snow did to artosis :D But man scout is awesome as a unit tho, kinda cool
I think it's a genius cry actually on the Tesagi part. Imagine if you can shame your opponent into not using a strategy they would benefit from!
I've heard the argument that gas is so tight for Zerg it is not a great use for it AND the queen might die
but I think most times u can end a command center u should. Especially since u probably lost army trying to get to half health anyway. IDK...
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France7890 Posts
I’m quite sure that if people keep playing starcraft at high level, we will end up one day with ghosts being a standard unit.
For what they do, they are extremely cheap. A ghost can basically one shot a shittle, an arbiter, a reaver or a carrier. The only drawback is that no one has the skill to use such an insanely demanding unit on what is without context the most demanding race multitasking wise.
But i can totally see a future where ghosts are standard to defend bases in tvp versus drops or recall and in TvT to neutralize battlecruisers against which they are honestly a very, very strong counter.
I am old enough to remember extremely strong players arguing that we would never see EMP in tvp on this very forum because it was too expensive and too micro intensive. So i wouldn’t discard lockdown. It’s an incredible ability considering how little ghosts cost.
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On December 19 2024 09:21 G5 wrote:
The scout is a great unit imo and there are slightly viable openings with them PvZ but they're too expensive. If speed came with them or you didn't need a fleet beacon to be upgraded, they'd be used more.
DA's, Queens, and Devourers are the best underutilized units imo.
Infested Terrans are gimmick units but they would be better if they cost less and acted like Banelings where they explode and kill everything around them on death. Right now, they only do damage if they connect with their Intended target which basically renders them as useless as a unit can be.
You still got that replay of you vs gorush with scouts?
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On December 23 2024 14:56 jimminy_kriket wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2024 09:21 G5 wrote:
The scout is a great unit imo and there are slightly viable openings with them PvZ but they're too expensive. If speed came with them or you didn't need a fleet beacon to be upgraded, they'd be used more.
DA's, Queens, and Devourers are the best underutilized units imo.
Infested Terrans are gimmick units but they would be better if they cost less and acted like Banelings where they explode and kill everything around them on death. Right now, they only do damage if they connect with their Intended target which basically renders them as useless as a unit can be. You still got that replay of you vs gorush with scouts?
No but I found it pretty fast lol
https://tl.net/forum/replay-comments/68913-tsl-g5-pvz-ssbt
You know if you just go to tl.net/replay you can still find old reps uploaded by TL.
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Dark Archon isn't as popular at killing defilers because it is a ground unit.
Unlike a vessel which is not impeded by allies nor has its vision obscured by high ground the Dark Archon is much slower at reacting to defilers.
The vision can be mitigated by protoss players not losing their corsairs before hive tech comes into play.but the positional issue can't be mitigated.
Maybe it doesn't need to be but It's obvious why most people, forget about pros, are not happy with the idea of putting a ground based spell caster in front of their army.
Maybe this is the one use case that could make hallucination relevant but so far noone has tried it.
Devourer/ muta is the best air to air unit combo in the game, period.
But there is no point for devourers to be used.
Hydra's has sufficiently carried zerg when corsairs were an issue and terran folds to scourge unless they get battlecruisers which is so rare and has always ended up in small enough numbers hydra plague has been good enough.
The only way you can force zerg to use devourers is to create a secondary objective that devourers can attack after the muta/devo combo wins the air battle.
That means at the pro level you will only see devourer in ZvZ because overlords meet that condition.
If Terran had a building that was valuable while flying then devourers could also see play then.
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I've often wondered if putting maelstrom on Zealots in a large PvP battle, could tip the odds in one's favor. Would probably be very situational, but would it ever be worth it? F.ex. go goon heavy comp, so that one's own Zealots don't end up in the maelstrom too. Then again, there'd be a wall og Zealots between the armies then. Hmm!
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EPT
