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On March 06 2025 20:51 SiarX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2025 07:43 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 01:14 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 00:58 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 03 2025 18:55 SiarX wrote:
The issue is that accumulation of energy for disruption webs takes so long, and corsairs are otherwise useless, so you have wasted a lot of resources on corsairs, d-web and fleet beacon, and you smaller ground army is at risk of being overwhelmed... Why not to spend them on shuttles with zealots instead? They will do the same job. The same argument can be made about queens in ZvT. J/S  No, because insta kill of tank (with queen likely surviving, since terran mech anti-air is not very good vs zerg) is so much better than 15 secs D-web. It basically puts terran mech on death clock timer, like carriers. But with Corsairs, you get to decide before the engagement where the web will go, so you can lock out the defenses at a 3rd or 4th. You can also put a dweb between two tanks, even if they're spaced out and still lock out 2 tanks, whereas broodlings can only get 1 tank in that scenario. Low goon count? All zealots? Lots of spider mines? Dweb solves that problem too. Spider mines don't activate under D-web. And funny you should mention carriers.. we already have a fleet beacon! So the transition to carriers is that much closer. Vs mech queen does things, which no other zerg unit can do. Corsair does the same thing which zealot +shuttles do, but worse because corsairs contribute nothing otherwise (zealots might even survive,and if they do not, they do not remain a dead supply), take long time to build energy and make your ground army weaker.
How many well-spread tanks, vulture-supported can you invalidate in a fight with 3 zealots in a shuttle? That's the same supply as 4 corsairs with disruption web, which can nullify the entirety of a terran's army for 15 seconds regardless of how entrenched the position is.
And they're not strictly useless.. they move fast. They're pretty much the best scouting tool Protoss has. If an observer gets scanned, it's dead. Corsairs can run away from anything besides a whole bunch of goliaths turning a corner. But if the T has a whole bunch of goliaths, their ground vs ground army is quite a bit weaker too.
In a 200/200 scenario, I'd ALWAYS rather have 4 corsairs with d-web over one shuttle with 3 zealots.
After trading gateway units for tanks at 11 minutes, instead of taking more bases, go d-web! If T scans you and sees one stargate and a fleet beacon at 13 minutes - they'll assume there's another stargate somewhere and start prepping for carriers. Corsair D-web comes online quite a lot faster than carriers. D-web only takes 50 seconds to research. You can STUFF their pre-carrier timing push with d-web. If they don't scan/push and play defensive, d-web cracks a base every time you push.
I honestly can't think of a situation where it would be worthwhile to research Argus Jewel, since it takes 100 seconds to research.. but 2 webs per corsair does seem pretty insane.
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On March 07 2025 05:22 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2025 20:51 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 07:43 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 01:14 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 00:58 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 03 2025 18:55 SiarX wrote:
The issue is that accumulation of energy for disruption webs takes so long, and corsairs are otherwise useless, so you have wasted a lot of resources on corsairs, d-web and fleet beacon, and you smaller ground army is at risk of being overwhelmed... Why not to spend them on shuttles with zealots instead? They will do the same job. The same argument can be made about queens in ZvT. J/S No, because insta kill of tank (with queen likely surviving, since terran mech anti-air is not very good vs zerg) is so much better than 15 secs D-web. It basically puts terran mech on death clock timer, like carriers. But with Corsairs, you get to decide before the engagement where the web will go, so you can lock out the defenses at a 3rd or 4th. You can also put a dweb between two tanks, even if they're spaced out and still lock out 2 tanks, whereas broodlings can only get 1 tank in that scenario. Low goon count? All zealots? Lots of spider mines? Dweb solves that problem too. Spider mines don't activate under D-web. And funny you should mention carriers.. we already have a fleet beacon! So the transition to carriers is that much closer. Vs mech queen does things, which no other zerg unit can do. Corsair does the same thing which zealot +shuttles do, but worse because corsairs contribute nothing otherwise (zealots might even survive,and if they do not, they do not remain a dead supply), take long time to build energy and make your ground army weaker. How many well-spread tanks, vulture-supported can you invalidate in a fight with 3 zealots in a shuttle? That's the same supply as 4 corsairs with disruption web, which can nullify the entirety of a terran's army for 15 seconds regardless of how entrenched the position is. And they're not strictly useless.. they move fast. They're pretty much the best scouting tool Protoss has. If an observer gets scanned, it's dead. Corsairs can run away from anything besides a whole bunch of goliaths turning a corner. But if the T has a whole bunch of goliaths, their ground vs ground army is quite a bit weaker too. In a 200/200 scenario, I'd ALWAYS rather have 4 corsairs with d-web over one shuttle with 3 zealots. After trading gateway units for tanks at 11 minutes, instead of taking more bases, go d-web! If T scans you and sees one stargate and a fleet beacon at 13 minutes - they'll assume there's another stargate somewhere and start prepping for carriers. Corsair D-web comes online quite a lot faster than carriers. D-web only takes 50 seconds to research. You can STUFF their pre-carrier timing push with d-web. If they don't scan/push and play defensive, d-web cracks a base every time you push. I honestly can't think of a situation where it would be worthwhile to research Argus Jewel, since it takes 100 seconds to research.. but 2 webs per corsair does seem pretty insane.
It takes 3:54 to charge 2 D-Webs. Most of the benefit of zealot bombs is not just switching between targets. Tanks literally take time to swivel their turret. You lose something to the tune of 0.5-1.0 seconds that they don't fire on incoming enemy. If they do it twice, you dropped behind the siege line and they have to spin twice, that is 1-2 seconds delay - literally %33-65 of reload time. Two consecutive drops are like 1 missed volley. It is priceless.
What is more, I just watched Rain vs Ssak on Namkraft. Rain literally lost time on Dragoons just to push mines between SCVs and siege tanks. It is only by grace of 2 vultures that Ssak was able to disarm them in time while Dragoons were struggling to get through the SCVs. Zealot bombs don't just delay entrenchments, they also break them by triggering mines. I forgot to say they also trigger friendly fire. D-Webs don't. What is even more it takes 25.2 and 37.8 seconds to train a zealot and a shuttle respectively.
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On March 07 2025 06:30 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2025 05:22 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 20:51 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 07:43 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 01:14 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 00:58 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 03 2025 18:55 SiarX wrote:
The issue is that accumulation of energy for disruption webs takes so long, and corsairs are otherwise useless, so you have wasted a lot of resources on corsairs, d-web and fleet beacon, and you smaller ground army is at risk of being overwhelmed... Why not to spend them on shuttles with zealots instead? They will do the same job. The same argument can be made about queens in ZvT. J/S No, because insta kill of tank (with queen likely surviving, since terran mech anti-air is not very good vs zerg) is so much better than 15 secs D-web. It basically puts terran mech on death clock timer, like carriers. But with Corsairs, you get to decide before the engagement where the web will go, so you can lock out the defenses at a 3rd or 4th. You can also put a dweb between two tanks, even if they're spaced out and still lock out 2 tanks, whereas broodlings can only get 1 tank in that scenario. Low goon count? All zealots? Lots of spider mines? Dweb solves that problem too. Spider mines don't activate under D-web. And funny you should mention carriers.. we already have a fleet beacon! So the transition to carriers is that much closer. Vs mech queen does things, which no other zerg unit can do. Corsair does the same thing which zealot +shuttles do, but worse because corsairs contribute nothing otherwise (zealots might even survive,and if they do not, they do not remain a dead supply), take long time to build energy and make your ground army weaker. How many well-spread tanks, vulture-supported can you invalidate in a fight with 3 zealots in a shuttle? That's the same supply as 4 corsairs with disruption web, which can nullify the entirety of a terran's army for 15 seconds regardless of how entrenched the position is. And they're not strictly useless.. they move fast. They're pretty much the best scouting tool Protoss has. If an observer gets scanned, it's dead. Corsairs can run away from anything besides a whole bunch of goliaths turning a corner. But if the T has a whole bunch of goliaths, their ground vs ground army is quite a bit weaker too. In a 200/200 scenario, I'd ALWAYS rather have 4 corsairs with d-web over one shuttle with 3 zealots. After trading gateway units for tanks at 11 minutes, instead of taking more bases, go d-web! If T scans you and sees one stargate and a fleet beacon at 13 minutes - they'll assume there's another stargate somewhere and start prepping for carriers. Corsair D-web comes online quite a lot faster than carriers. D-web only takes 50 seconds to research. You can STUFF their pre-carrier timing push with d-web. If they don't scan/push and play defensive, d-web cracks a base every time you push. I honestly can't think of a situation where it would be worthwhile to research Argus Jewel, since it takes 100 seconds to research.. but 2 webs per corsair does seem pretty insane. It takes 3:54 to charge 2 D-Webs. Most of the benefit of zealot bombs is not just switching between targets. Tanks literally take time to swivel their turret. You lose something to the tune of 0.5-1.0 seconds that they don't fire on incoming enemy. If they do it twice, you dropped behind the siege line and they have to spin twice, that is 1-2 seconds delay - literally %33-65 of reload time. Two consecutive drops are like 1 missed volley. It is priceless. What is more, I just watched Rain vs Ssak on Namkraft. Rain literally lost time on Dragoons just to push mines between SCVs and siege tanks. It is only by grace of 2 vultures that Ssak was able to disarm them in time while Dragoons were struggling to get through the SCVs. Zealot bombs don't just delay entrenchments, they also break them by triggering mines. I forgot to say they also trigger friendly fire. D-Webs don't. What is even more it takes 25.2 and 37.8 seconds to train a zealot and a shuttle respectively.
That's really cool information. Thanks for that!
I agree that MOST of the time corsairs aren't a sensible option in PvT. But consider this specific game state:
You've just attempted to crack the 3rd at like 11:20 using a big gateway man push off 4 bases - and you succeeded in trading away about 50 supply in the Terran army, but the T kept his 3rd up. He has 1 armory. You have 1 forge. Your robo has only made observers - no robotics support bay - no speed for shuttles.
You can't crack the 3rd with another push because of tanks in the back line on high ground, but Terran also can't move out against you. So, Terran gets the 2nd armory and turtles on 3 bases.. You know you have about 3 or 4 minutes to play with before a big push or Terran secures his 4th.
You have 3 gas. Your tech is delayed, but you have attack upgrades. You lost a lot of zealots but you kept a bunch of your goons alive.
In this specific situation, most Protoss players would expand again, and try to catch up with delayed storm and drop tech. I'm proposing that in this situation, instead of expanding again - and trying to survive with fewer storms than you really need, only to get flattened by the follow-up push and strong Terran economy... You put down a stargate, pop out 2-3 corsairs, and research disruption web.
It seems to me like d-web is the only thing in that situation that can swing the game, because your high goon count ensures that the Terran army has to move together, but by moving together it becomes more vulnerable to d-web. Either take an actually cost-effective trade against their army when they push out so you can expand again and THEN tech, or completely sack their 4th base, and have a couple d-webs in reserve to take the cost-effective trade in a 4-3 base scenario.
I don't know if it's completely tenable, but it seems like a better option than expanding to a quick 5th and just dying.
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On March 07 2025 07:30 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2025 06:30 mtcn77 wrote:On March 07 2025 05:22 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 20:51 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 07:43 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 01:14 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 00:58 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 03 2025 18:55 SiarX wrote:
The issue is that accumulation of energy for disruption webs takes so long, and corsairs are otherwise useless, so you have wasted a lot of resources on corsairs, d-web and fleet beacon, and you smaller ground army is at risk of being overwhelmed... Why not to spend them on shuttles with zealots instead? They will do the same job. The same argument can be made about queens in ZvT. J/S No, because insta kill of tank (with queen likely surviving, since terran mech anti-air is not very good vs zerg) is so much better than 15 secs D-web. It basically puts terran mech on death clock timer, like carriers. But with Corsairs, you get to decide before the engagement where the web will go, so you can lock out the defenses at a 3rd or 4th. You can also put a dweb between two tanks, even if they're spaced out and still lock out 2 tanks, whereas broodlings can only get 1 tank in that scenario. Low goon count? All zealots? Lots of spider mines? Dweb solves that problem too. Spider mines don't activate under D-web. And funny you should mention carriers.. we already have a fleet beacon! So the transition to carriers is that much closer. Vs mech queen does things, which no other zerg unit can do. Corsair does the same thing which zealot +shuttles do, but worse because corsairs contribute nothing otherwise (zealots might even survive,and if they do not, they do not remain a dead supply), take long time to build energy and make your ground army weaker. How many well-spread tanks, vulture-supported can you invalidate in a fight with 3 zealots in a shuttle? That's the same supply as 4 corsairs with disruption web, which can nullify the entirety of a terran's army for 15 seconds regardless of how entrenched the position is. And they're not strictly useless.. they move fast. They're pretty much the best scouting tool Protoss has. If an observer gets scanned, it's dead. Corsairs can run away from anything besides a whole bunch of goliaths turning a corner. But if the T has a whole bunch of goliaths, their ground vs ground army is quite a bit weaker too. In a 200/200 scenario, I'd ALWAYS rather have 4 corsairs with d-web over one shuttle with 3 zealots. After trading gateway units for tanks at 11 minutes, instead of taking more bases, go d-web! If T scans you and sees one stargate and a fleet beacon at 13 minutes - they'll assume there's another stargate somewhere and start prepping for carriers. Corsair D-web comes online quite a lot faster than carriers. D-web only takes 50 seconds to research. You can STUFF their pre-carrier timing push with d-web. If they don't scan/push and play defensive, d-web cracks a base every time you push. I honestly can't think of a situation where it would be worthwhile to research Argus Jewel, since it takes 100 seconds to research.. but 2 webs per corsair does seem pretty insane. It takes 3:54 to charge 2 D-Webs. Most of the benefit of zealot bombs is not just switching between targets. Tanks literally take time to swivel their turret. You lose something to the tune of 0.5-1.0 seconds that they don't fire on incoming enemy. If they do it twice, you dropped behind the siege line and they have to spin twice, that is 1-2 seconds delay - literally %33-65 of reload time. Two consecutive drops are like 1 missed volley. It is priceless. What is more, I just watched Rain vs Ssak on Namkraft. Rain literally lost time on Dragoons just to push mines between SCVs and siege tanks. It is only by grace of 2 vultures that Ssak was able to disarm them in time while Dragoons were struggling to get through the SCVs. Zealot bombs don't just delay entrenchments, they also break them by triggering mines. I forgot to say they also trigger friendly fire. D-Webs don't. What is even more it takes 25.2 and 37.8 seconds to train a zealot and a shuttle respectively. That's really cool information. Thanks for that! I agree that MOST of the time corsairs aren't a sensible option in PvT. But consider this specific game state: You've just attempted to crack the 3rd at like 11:20 using a big gateway man push off 4 bases - and you succeeded in trading away about 50 supply in the Terran army, but the T kept his 3rd up. He has 1 armory. You have 1 forge. Your robo has only made observers - no robotics support bay - no speed for shuttles. You can't crack the 3rd with another push because of tanks in the back line on high ground, but Terran also can't move out against you. So, Terran gets the 2nd armory and turtles on 3 bases.. You know you have about 3 or 4 minutes to play with before a big push or Terran secures his 4th. You have 3 gas. Your tech is delayed, but you have attack upgrades. You lost a lot of zealots but you kept a bunch of your goons alive. In this specific situation, most Protoss players would expand again, and try to catch up with delayed storm and drop tech. I'm proposing that in this situation, instead of expanding again - and trying to survive with fewer storms than you really need, only to get flattened by the follow-up push and strong Terran economy... You put down a stargate, pop out 2-3 corsairs, and research disruption web. It seems to me like d-web is the only thing in that situation that can swing the game, because your high goon count ensures that the Terran army has to move together, but by moving together it becomes more vulnerable to d-web. Either take an actually cost-effective trade against their army when they push out so you can expand again and THEN tech, or completely sack their 4th base, and have a couple d-webs in reserve to take the cost-effective trade in a 4-3 base scenario. I don't know if it's completely tenable, but it seems like a better option than expanding to a quick 5th and just dying.
I was going to say I agree once you have 200/200, protoss has a whole another arsenal of units squeezing water out of rock with hallucinated units and D-Webs. Though it needs someone smarter than me to push ahead with this. I cannot even decide how many hatcheries in my gameplay.
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On March 07 2025 07:36 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2025 07:30 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 07 2025 06:30 mtcn77 wrote:On March 07 2025 05:22 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 20:51 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 07:43 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 01:14 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 00:58 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 03 2025 18:55 SiarX wrote:
The issue is that accumulation of energy for disruption webs takes so long, and corsairs are otherwise useless, so you have wasted a lot of resources on corsairs, d-web and fleet beacon, and you smaller ground army is at risk of being overwhelmed... Why not to spend them on shuttles with zealots instead? They will do the same job. The same argument can be made about queens in ZvT. J/S No, because insta kill of tank (with queen likely surviving, since terran mech anti-air is not very good vs zerg) is so much better than 15 secs D-web. It basically puts terran mech on death clock timer, like carriers. But with Corsairs, you get to decide before the engagement where the web will go, so you can lock out the defenses at a 3rd or 4th. You can also put a dweb between two tanks, even if they're spaced out and still lock out 2 tanks, whereas broodlings can only get 1 tank in that scenario. Low goon count? All zealots? Lots of spider mines? Dweb solves that problem too. Spider mines don't activate under D-web. And funny you should mention carriers.. we already have a fleet beacon! So the transition to carriers is that much closer. Vs mech queen does things, which no other zerg unit can do. Corsair does the same thing which zealot +shuttles do, but worse because corsairs contribute nothing otherwise (zealots might even survive,and if they do not, they do not remain a dead supply), take long time to build energy and make your ground army weaker. How many well-spread tanks, vulture-supported can you invalidate in a fight with 3 zealots in a shuttle? That's the same supply as 4 corsairs with disruption web, which can nullify the entirety of a terran's army for 15 seconds regardless of how entrenched the position is. And they're not strictly useless.. they move fast. They're pretty much the best scouting tool Protoss has. If an observer gets scanned, it's dead. Corsairs can run away from anything besides a whole bunch of goliaths turning a corner. But if the T has a whole bunch of goliaths, their ground vs ground army is quite a bit weaker too. In a 200/200 scenario, I'd ALWAYS rather have 4 corsairs with d-web over one shuttle with 3 zealots. After trading gateway units for tanks at 11 minutes, instead of taking more bases, go d-web! If T scans you and sees one stargate and a fleet beacon at 13 minutes - they'll assume there's another stargate somewhere and start prepping for carriers. Corsair D-web comes online quite a lot faster than carriers. D-web only takes 50 seconds to research. You can STUFF their pre-carrier timing push with d-web. If they don't scan/push and play defensive, d-web cracks a base every time you push. I honestly can't think of a situation where it would be worthwhile to research Argus Jewel, since it takes 100 seconds to research.. but 2 webs per corsair does seem pretty insane. It takes 3:54 to charge 2 D-Webs. Most of the benefit of zealot bombs is not just switching between targets. Tanks literally take time to swivel their turret. You lose something to the tune of 0.5-1.0 seconds that they don't fire on incoming enemy. If they do it twice, you dropped behind the siege line and they have to spin twice, that is 1-2 seconds delay - literally %33-65 of reload time. Two consecutive drops are like 1 missed volley. It is priceless. What is more, I just watched Rain vs Ssak on Namkraft. Rain literally lost time on Dragoons just to push mines between SCVs and siege tanks. It is only by grace of 2 vultures that Ssak was able to disarm them in time while Dragoons were struggling to get through the SCVs. Zealot bombs don't just delay entrenchments, they also break them by triggering mines. I forgot to say they also trigger friendly fire. D-Webs don't. What is even more it takes 25.2 and 37.8 seconds to train a zealot and a shuttle respectively. That's really cool information. Thanks for that! I agree that MOST of the time corsairs aren't a sensible option in PvT. But consider this specific game state: You've just attempted to crack the 3rd at like 11:20 using a big gateway man push off 4 bases - and you succeeded in trading away about 50 supply in the Terran army, but the T kept his 3rd up. He has 1 armory. You have 1 forge. Your robo has only made observers - no robotics support bay - no speed for shuttles. You can't crack the 3rd with another push because of tanks in the back line on high ground, but Terran also can't move out against you. So, Terran gets the 2nd armory and turtles on 3 bases.. You know you have about 3 or 4 minutes to play with before a big push or Terran secures his 4th. You have 3 gas. Your tech is delayed, but you have attack upgrades. You lost a lot of zealots but you kept a bunch of your goons alive. In this specific situation, most Protoss players would expand again, and try to catch up with delayed storm and drop tech. I'm proposing that in this situation, instead of expanding again - and trying to survive with fewer storms than you really need, only to get flattened by the follow-up push and strong Terran economy... You put down a stargate, pop out 2-3 corsairs, and research disruption web. It seems to me like d-web is the only thing in that situation that can swing the game, because your high goon count ensures that the Terran army has to move together, but by moving together it becomes more vulnerable to d-web. Either take an actually cost-effective trade against their army when they push out so you can expand again and THEN tech, or completely sack their 4th base, and have a couple d-webs in reserve to take the cost-effective trade in a 4-3 base scenario. I don't know if it's completely tenable, but it seems like a better option than expanding to a quick 5th and just dying. I was going to say I agree once you have 200/200, protoss has a whole another arsenal of units squeezing water out of rock with hallucinated units and D-Webs. Though it needs someone smarter than me to push ahead with this. I cannot even decide how many hatcheries in my gameplay.
This is going to sound the Most sacreligious - but that push doesn't need templar tech. So, just skip storm until you have your D-web pressure running. 200 gas for templar archives. 200 gas for storm. 600 gas for 4 HTs. That's 1000 gas. 150 for stargate. 200 for fleet beacon. 200 for d-web. 4 corsairs. 950 gas.
I think it can actually work.
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On March 07 2025 08:00 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2025 07:36 mtcn77 wrote:On March 07 2025 07:30 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 07 2025 06:30 mtcn77 wrote:On March 07 2025 05:22 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 20:51 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 07:43 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 01:14 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 00:58 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 03 2025 18:55 SiarX wrote:
The issue is that accumulation of energy for disruption webs takes so long, and corsairs are otherwise useless, so you have wasted a lot of resources on corsairs, d-web and fleet beacon, and you smaller ground army is at risk of being overwhelmed... Why not to spend them on shuttles with zealots instead? They will do the same job. The same argument can be made about queens in ZvT. J/S No, because insta kill of tank (with queen likely surviving, since terran mech anti-air is not very good vs zerg) is so much better than 15 secs D-web. It basically puts terran mech on death clock timer, like carriers. But with Corsairs, you get to decide before the engagement where the web will go, so you can lock out the defenses at a 3rd or 4th. You can also put a dweb between two tanks, even if they're spaced out and still lock out 2 tanks, whereas broodlings can only get 1 tank in that scenario. Low goon count? All zealots? Lots of spider mines? Dweb solves that problem too. Spider mines don't activate under D-web. And funny you should mention carriers.. we already have a fleet beacon! So the transition to carriers is that much closer. Vs mech queen does things, which no other zerg unit can do. Corsair does the same thing which zealot +shuttles do, but worse because corsairs contribute nothing otherwise (zealots might even survive,and if they do not, they do not remain a dead supply), take long time to build energy and make your ground army weaker. How many well-spread tanks, vulture-supported can you invalidate in a fight with 3 zealots in a shuttle? That's the same supply as 4 corsairs with disruption web, which can nullify the entirety of a terran's army for 15 seconds regardless of how entrenched the position is. And they're not strictly useless.. they move fast. They're pretty much the best scouting tool Protoss has. If an observer gets scanned, it's dead. Corsairs can run away from anything besides a whole bunch of goliaths turning a corner. But if the T has a whole bunch of goliaths, their ground vs ground army is quite a bit weaker too. In a 200/200 scenario, I'd ALWAYS rather have 4 corsairs with d-web over one shuttle with 3 zealots. After trading gateway units for tanks at 11 minutes, instead of taking more bases, go d-web! If T scans you and sees one stargate and a fleet beacon at 13 minutes - they'll assume there's another stargate somewhere and start prepping for carriers. Corsair D-web comes online quite a lot faster than carriers. D-web only takes 50 seconds to research. You can STUFF their pre-carrier timing push with d-web. If they don't scan/push and play defensive, d-web cracks a base every time you push. I honestly can't think of a situation where it would be worthwhile to research Argus Jewel, since it takes 100 seconds to research.. but 2 webs per corsair does seem pretty insane. It takes 3:54 to charge 2 D-Webs. Most of the benefit of zealot bombs is not just switching between targets. Tanks literally take time to swivel their turret. You lose something to the tune of 0.5-1.0 seconds that they don't fire on incoming enemy. If they do it twice, you dropped behind the siege line and they have to spin twice, that is 1-2 seconds delay - literally %33-65 of reload time. Two consecutive drops are like 1 missed volley. It is priceless. What is more, I just watched Rain vs Ssak on Namkraft. Rain literally lost time on Dragoons just to push mines between SCVs and siege tanks. It is only by grace of 2 vultures that Ssak was able to disarm them in time while Dragoons were struggling to get through the SCVs. Zealot bombs don't just delay entrenchments, they also break them by triggering mines. I forgot to say they also trigger friendly fire. D-Webs don't. What is even more it takes 25.2 and 37.8 seconds to train a zealot and a shuttle respectively. That's really cool information. Thanks for that! I agree that MOST of the time corsairs aren't a sensible option in PvT. But consider this specific game state: You've just attempted to crack the 3rd at like 11:20 using a big gateway man push off 4 bases - and you succeeded in trading away about 50 supply in the Terran army, but the T kept his 3rd up. He has 1 armory. You have 1 forge. Your robo has only made observers - no robotics support bay - no speed for shuttles. You can't crack the 3rd with another push because of tanks in the back line on high ground, but Terran also can't move out against you. So, Terran gets the 2nd armory and turtles on 3 bases.. You know you have about 3 or 4 minutes to play with before a big push or Terran secures his 4th. You have 3 gas. Your tech is delayed, but you have attack upgrades. You lost a lot of zealots but you kept a bunch of your goons alive. In this specific situation, most Protoss players would expand again, and try to catch up with delayed storm and drop tech. I'm proposing that in this situation, instead of expanding again - and trying to survive with fewer storms than you really need, only to get flattened by the follow-up push and strong Terran economy... You put down a stargate, pop out 2-3 corsairs, and research disruption web. It seems to me like d-web is the only thing in that situation that can swing the game, because your high goon count ensures that the Terran army has to move together, but by moving together it becomes more vulnerable to d-web. Either take an actually cost-effective trade against their army when they push out so you can expand again and THEN tech, or completely sack their 4th base, and have a couple d-webs in reserve to take the cost-effective trade in a 4-3 base scenario. I don't know if it's completely tenable, but it seems like a better option than expanding to a quick 5th and just dying. I was going to say I agree once you have 200/200, protoss has a whole another arsenal of units squeezing water out of rock with hallucinated units and D-Webs. Though it needs someone smarter than me to push ahead with this. I cannot even decide how many hatcheries in my gameplay. This is going to sound the Most sacreligious - but that push doesn't need templar tech. So, just skip storm until you have your D-web pressure running. 200 gas for templar archives. 200 gas for storm. 600 gas for 4 HTs. That's 1000 gas. 150 for stargate. 200 for fleet beacon. 200 for d-web. 4 corsairs. 950 gas. I think it can actually work.
I think D-Webs need Reavers, or Carriers to shine. You need some trump card, or air attack to make the 15 seconds ground disable count. The problem is not siege tanks, it is all the support units surrounding them that Dragoons struggle with.
About High Templars, consider this: from 2 HTs, instead of 6 storms, you cast 5 storms, 1 hallucinate, or 4 storms and 2 hallucinate. Would it work?
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mass +3 attack goon / corsair.
Traps T on 3 bases. Carrier transition right there. GG.
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On March 07 2025 08:11 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2025 08:00 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 07 2025 07:36 mtcn77 wrote:On March 07 2025 07:30 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 07 2025 06:30 mtcn77 wrote:On March 07 2025 05:22 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 20:51 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 07:43 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 01:14 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 00:58 ThunderJunk wrote:[quote] The same argument can be made about queens in ZvT. J/S No, because insta kill of tank (with queen likely surviving, since terran mech anti-air is not very good vs zerg) is so much better than 15 secs D-web. It basically puts terran mech on death clock timer, like carriers. But with Corsairs, you get to decide before the engagement where the web will go, so you can lock out the defenses at a 3rd or 4th. You can also put a dweb between two tanks, even if they're spaced out and still lock out 2 tanks, whereas broodlings can only get 1 tank in that scenario. Low goon count? All zealots? Lots of spider mines? Dweb solves that problem too. Spider mines don't activate under D-web. And funny you should mention carriers.. we already have a fleet beacon! So the transition to carriers is that much closer. Vs mech queen does things, which no other zerg unit can do. Corsair does the same thing which zealot +shuttles do, but worse because corsairs contribute nothing otherwise (zealots might even survive,and if they do not, they do not remain a dead supply), take long time to build energy and make your ground army weaker. How many well-spread tanks, vulture-supported can you invalidate in a fight with 3 zealots in a shuttle? That's the same supply as 4 corsairs with disruption web, which can nullify the entirety of a terran's army for 15 seconds regardless of how entrenched the position is. And they're not strictly useless.. they move fast. They're pretty much the best scouting tool Protoss has. If an observer gets scanned, it's dead. Corsairs can run away from anything besides a whole bunch of goliaths turning a corner. But if the T has a whole bunch of goliaths, their ground vs ground army is quite a bit weaker too. In a 200/200 scenario, I'd ALWAYS rather have 4 corsairs with d-web over one shuttle with 3 zealots. After trading gateway units for tanks at 11 minutes, instead of taking more bases, go d-web! If T scans you and sees one stargate and a fleet beacon at 13 minutes - they'll assume there's another stargate somewhere and start prepping for carriers. Corsair D-web comes online quite a lot faster than carriers. D-web only takes 50 seconds to research. You can STUFF their pre-carrier timing push with d-web. If they don't scan/push and play defensive, d-web cracks a base every time you push. I honestly can't think of a situation where it would be worthwhile to research Argus Jewel, since it takes 100 seconds to research.. but 2 webs per corsair does seem pretty insane. It takes 3:54 to charge 2 D-Webs. Most of the benefit of zealot bombs is not just switching between targets. Tanks literally take time to swivel their turret. You lose something to the tune of 0.5-1.0 seconds that they don't fire on incoming enemy. If they do it twice, you dropped behind the siege line and they have to spin twice, that is 1-2 seconds delay - literally %33-65 of reload time. Two consecutive drops are like 1 missed volley. It is priceless. What is more, I just watched Rain vs Ssak on Namkraft. Rain literally lost time on Dragoons just to push mines between SCVs and siege tanks. It is only by grace of 2 vultures that Ssak was able to disarm them in time while Dragoons were struggling to get through the SCVs. Zealot bombs don't just delay entrenchments, they also break them by triggering mines. I forgot to say they also trigger friendly fire. D-Webs don't. What is even more it takes 25.2 and 37.8 seconds to train a zealot and a shuttle respectively. That's really cool information. Thanks for that! I agree that MOST of the time corsairs aren't a sensible option in PvT. But consider this specific game state: You've just attempted to crack the 3rd at like 11:20 using a big gateway man push off 4 bases - and you succeeded in trading away about 50 supply in the Terran army, but the T kept his 3rd up. He has 1 armory. You have 1 forge. Your robo has only made observers - no robotics support bay - no speed for shuttles. You can't crack the 3rd with another push because of tanks in the back line on high ground, but Terran also can't move out against you. So, Terran gets the 2nd armory and turtles on 3 bases.. You know you have about 3 or 4 minutes to play with before a big push or Terran secures his 4th. You have 3 gas. Your tech is delayed, but you have attack upgrades. You lost a lot of zealots but you kept a bunch of your goons alive. In this specific situation, most Protoss players would expand again, and try to catch up with delayed storm and drop tech. I'm proposing that in this situation, instead of expanding again - and trying to survive with fewer storms than you really need, only to get flattened by the follow-up push and strong Terran economy... You put down a stargate, pop out 2-3 corsairs, and research disruption web. It seems to me like d-web is the only thing in that situation that can swing the game, because your high goon count ensures that the Terran army has to move together, but by moving together it becomes more vulnerable to d-web. Either take an actually cost-effective trade against their army when they push out so you can expand again and THEN tech, or completely sack their 4th base, and have a couple d-webs in reserve to take the cost-effective trade in a 4-3 base scenario. I don't know if it's completely tenable, but it seems like a better option than expanding to a quick 5th and just dying. I was going to say I agree once you have 200/200, protoss has a whole another arsenal of units squeezing water out of rock with hallucinated units and D-Webs. Though it needs someone smarter than me to push ahead with this. I cannot even decide how many hatcheries in my gameplay. This is going to sound the Most sacreligious - but that push doesn't need templar tech. So, just skip storm until you have your D-web pressure running. 200 gas for templar archives. 200 gas for storm. 600 gas for 4 HTs. That's 1000 gas. 150 for stargate. 200 for fleet beacon. 200 for d-web. 4 corsairs. 950 gas. I think it can actually work. I think D-Webs need Reavers, or Carriers to shine. You need some trump card, or air attack to make the 15 seconds ground disable count. The problem is not siege tanks, it is all the support units surrounding them that Dragoons struggle with. About High Templars, consider this: you cast 5 storms, 1 hallucinate. You end up with 2 hallucinated high templars and make 2 archons from 2 high templars and 2 hallucinated ones. Alternatively, you cast 2 storms from 1 HT. The second HT hallucinates it. You make an Archon from the depleted HT and hallucination. When the Archon is summoned you hallucinate the Archon and make a second Archon from the other HT hallucination with the second HT. Thereby, you end up with 2 Archons, 2 hallucinated Archons from 2 HTs. Imagine 1 psyonic storm, 1 Archon and 1 hallucinated Archon from 1 HT - that is 1080HP from 2 depleted HT's. I think there is a whole another side to starcraft unbeknownst to us.
Thing is, will that "bug" be allowed? I don't really see a problem with it, but I do want to see Protoss grow.
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On March 07 2025 10:05 HolySmokes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2025 08:11 mtcn77 wrote:On March 07 2025 08:00 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 07 2025 07:36 mtcn77 wrote:On March 07 2025 07:30 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 07 2025 06:30 mtcn77 wrote:On March 07 2025 05:22 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 20:51 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 07:43 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 01:14 SiarX wrote:
[quote]
No, because insta kill of tank (with queen likely surviving, since terran mech anti-air is not very good vs zerg) is so much better than 15 secs D-web. It basically puts terran mech on death clock timer, like carriers.
But with Corsairs, you get to decide before the engagement where the web will go, so you can lock out the defenses at a 3rd or 4th. You can also put a dweb between two tanks, even if they're spaced out and still lock out 2 tanks, whereas broodlings can only get 1 tank in that scenario. Low goon count? All zealots? Lots of spider mines? Dweb solves that problem too. Spider mines don't activate under D-web. And funny you should mention carriers.. we already have a fleet beacon! So the transition to carriers is that much closer. Vs mech queen does things, which no other zerg unit can do. Corsair does the same thing which zealot +shuttles do, but worse because corsairs contribute nothing otherwise (zealots might even survive,and if they do not, they do not remain a dead supply), take long time to build energy and make your ground army weaker. How many well-spread tanks, vulture-supported can you invalidate in a fight with 3 zealots in a shuttle? That's the same supply as 4 corsairs with disruption web, which can nullify the entirety of a terran's army for 15 seconds regardless of how entrenched the position is. And they're not strictly useless.. they move fast. They're pretty much the best scouting tool Protoss has. If an observer gets scanned, it's dead. Corsairs can run away from anything besides a whole bunch of goliaths turning a corner. But if the T has a whole bunch of goliaths, their ground vs ground army is quite a bit weaker too. In a 200/200 scenario, I'd ALWAYS rather have 4 corsairs with d-web over one shuttle with 3 zealots. After trading gateway units for tanks at 11 minutes, instead of taking more bases, go d-web! If T scans you and sees one stargate and a fleet beacon at 13 minutes - they'll assume there's another stargate somewhere and start prepping for carriers. Corsair D-web comes online quite a lot faster than carriers. D-web only takes 50 seconds to research. You can STUFF their pre-carrier timing push with d-web. If they don't scan/push and play defensive, d-web cracks a base every time you push. I honestly can't think of a situation where it would be worthwhile to research Argus Jewel, since it takes 100 seconds to research.. but 2 webs per corsair does seem pretty insane. It takes 3:54 to charge 2 D-Webs. Most of the benefit of zealot bombs is not just switching between targets. Tanks literally take time to swivel their turret. You lose something to the tune of 0.5-1.0 seconds that they don't fire on incoming enemy. If they do it twice, you dropped behind the siege line and they have to spin twice, that is 1-2 seconds delay - literally %33-65 of reload time. Two consecutive drops are like 1 missed volley. It is priceless. What is more, I just watched Rain vs Ssak on Namkraft. Rain literally lost time on Dragoons just to push mines between SCVs and siege tanks. It is only by grace of 2 vultures that Ssak was able to disarm them in time while Dragoons were struggling to get through the SCVs. Zealot bombs don't just delay entrenchments, they also break them by triggering mines. I forgot to say they also trigger friendly fire. D-Webs don't. What is even more it takes 25.2 and 37.8 seconds to train a zealot and a shuttle respectively. That's really cool information. Thanks for that! I agree that MOST of the time corsairs aren't a sensible option in PvT. But consider this specific game state: You've just attempted to crack the 3rd at like 11:20 using a big gateway man push off 4 bases - and you succeeded in trading away about 50 supply in the Terran army, but the T kept his 3rd up. He has 1 armory. You have 1 forge. Your robo has only made observers - no robotics support bay - no speed for shuttles. You can't crack the 3rd with another push because of tanks in the back line on high ground, but Terran also can't move out against you. So, Terran gets the 2nd armory and turtles on 3 bases.. You know you have about 3 or 4 minutes to play with before a big push or Terran secures his 4th. You have 3 gas. Your tech is delayed, but you have attack upgrades. You lost a lot of zealots but you kept a bunch of your goons alive. In this specific situation, most Protoss players would expand again, and try to catch up with delayed storm and drop tech. I'm proposing that in this situation, instead of expanding again - and trying to survive with fewer storms than you really need, only to get flattened by the follow-up push and strong Terran economy... You put down a stargate, pop out 2-3 corsairs, and research disruption web. It seems to me like d-web is the only thing in that situation that can swing the game, because your high goon count ensures that the Terran army has to move together, but by moving together it becomes more vulnerable to d-web. Either take an actually cost-effective trade against their army when they push out so you can expand again and THEN tech, or completely sack their 4th base, and have a couple d-webs in reserve to take the cost-effective trade in a 4-3 base scenario. I don't know if it's completely tenable, but it seems like a better option than expanding to a quick 5th and just dying. I was going to say I agree once you have 200/200, protoss has a whole another arsenal of units squeezing water out of rock with hallucinated units and D-Webs. Though it needs someone smarter than me to push ahead with this. I cannot even decide how many hatcheries in my gameplay. This is going to sound the Most sacreligious - but that push doesn't need templar tech. So, just skip storm until you have your D-web pressure running. 200 gas for templar archives. 200 gas for storm. 600 gas for 4 HTs. That's 1000 gas. 150 for stargate. 200 for fleet beacon. 200 for d-web. 4 corsairs. 950 gas. I think it can actually work. I think D-Webs need Reavers, or Carriers to shine. You need some trump card, or air attack to make the 15 seconds ground disable count. The problem is not siege tanks, it is all the support units surrounding them that Dragoons struggle with. About High Templars, consider this: you cast 5 storms, 1 hallucinate. You end up with 2 hallucinated high templars and make 2 archons from 2 high templars and 2 hallucinated ones. Alternatively, you cast 2 storms from 1 HT. The second HT hallucinates it. You make an Archon from the depleted HT and hallucination. When the Archon is summoned you hallucinate the Archon and make a second Archon from the other HT hallucination with the second HT. Thereby, you end up with 2 Archons, 2 hallucinated Archons from 2 HTs. Imagine 1 psyonic storm, 1 Archon and 1 hallucinated Archon from 1 HT - that is 1080HP from 2 depleted HT's. I think there is a whole another side to starcraft unbeknownst to us. Thing is, will that "bug" be allowed? I don't really see a problem with it, but I do want to see Protoss grow.
Tried it, doesn't work.
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You guys are sleeping on parasite. Imagine you either force a unit to be taken out of the army or track where the while Protoss army is. It's way better than broodling early game. Put it on archons, corsairs and shuttles.
If they sack the unit or put it in the corner of the map it's the same result as casting broodling, the unit doesn't participate. If they do keep it around, the vision benefits are even better
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On March 07 2025 05:22 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2025 20:51 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 07:43 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 01:14 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 00:58 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 03 2025 18:55 SiarX wrote:
The issue is that accumulation of energy for disruption webs takes so long, and corsairs are otherwise useless, so you have wasted a lot of resources on corsairs, d-web and fleet beacon, and you smaller ground army is at risk of being overwhelmed... Why not to spend them on shuttles with zealots instead? They will do the same job. The same argument can be made about queens in ZvT. J/S No, because insta kill of tank (with queen likely surviving, since terran mech anti-air is not very good vs zerg) is so much better than 15 secs D-web. It basically puts terran mech on death clock timer, like carriers. But with Corsairs, you get to decide before the engagement where the web will go, so you can lock out the defenses at a 3rd or 4th. You can also put a dweb between two tanks, even if they're spaced out and still lock out 2 tanks, whereas broodlings can only get 1 tank in that scenario. Low goon count? All zealots? Lots of spider mines? Dweb solves that problem too. Spider mines don't activate under D-web. And funny you should mention carriers.. we already have a fleet beacon! So the transition to carriers is that much closer. Vs mech queen does things, which no other zerg unit can do. Corsair does the same thing which zealot +shuttles do, but worse because corsairs contribute nothing otherwise (zealots might even survive,and if they do not, they do not remain a dead supply), take long time to build energy and make your ground army weaker. How many well-spread tanks, vulture-supported can you invalidate in a fight with 3 zealots in a shuttle? That's the same supply as 4 corsairs with disruption web, which can nullify the entirety of a terran's army for 15 seconds regardless of how entrenched the position is. And they're not strictly useless.. they move fast. They're pretty much the best scouting tool Protoss has. If an observer gets scanned, it's dead. Corsairs can run away from anything besides a whole bunch of goliaths turning a corner. But if the T has a whole bunch of goliaths, their ground vs ground army is quite a bit weaker too. In a 200/200 scenario, I'd ALWAYS rather have 4 corsairs with d-web over one shuttle with 3 zealots. After trading gateway units for tanks at 11 minutes, instead of taking more bases, go d-web! If T scans you and sees one stargate and a fleet beacon at 13 minutes - they'll assume there's another stargate somewhere and start prepping for carriers. Corsair D-web comes online quite a lot faster than carriers. D-web only takes 50 seconds to research. You can STUFF their pre-carrier timing push with d-web. If they don't scan/push and play defensive, d-web cracks a base every time you push. I honestly can't think of a situation where it would be worthwhile to research Argus Jewel, since it takes 100 seconds to research.. but 2 webs per corsair does seem pretty insane.
A lot, since tanks also fire at each other. Just look at any pro game where protoss choses to play speed shuttles.. They are really effective. Also it is hard to spread tanks think, and then they start firing at each other. If they group up, then they get stormed.
Not to mention that zealots can drag mines at terran positions.
Terran always has goliaths with extremely long range and turrets, corsairs wont be able to scout much anyway.
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On March 07 2025 08:11 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2025 08:00 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 07 2025 07:36 mtcn77 wrote:On March 07 2025 07:30 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 07 2025 06:30 mtcn77 wrote:On March 07 2025 05:22 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 20:51 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 07:43 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 01:14 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 00:58 ThunderJunk wrote:[quote] The same argument can be made about queens in ZvT. J/S No, because insta kill of tank (with queen likely surviving, since terran mech anti-air is not very good vs zerg) is so much better than 15 secs D-web. It basically puts terran mech on death clock timer, like carriers. But with Corsairs, you get to decide before the engagement where the web will go, so you can lock out the defenses at a 3rd or 4th. You can also put a dweb between two tanks, even if they're spaced out and still lock out 2 tanks, whereas broodlings can only get 1 tank in that scenario. Low goon count? All zealots? Lots of spider mines? Dweb solves that problem too. Spider mines don't activate under D-web. And funny you should mention carriers.. we already have a fleet beacon! So the transition to carriers is that much closer. Vs mech queen does things, which no other zerg unit can do. Corsair does the same thing which zealot +shuttles do, but worse because corsairs contribute nothing otherwise (zealots might even survive,and if they do not, they do not remain a dead supply), take long time to build energy and make your ground army weaker. How many well-spread tanks, vulture-supported can you invalidate in a fight with 3 zealots in a shuttle? That's the same supply as 4 corsairs with disruption web, which can nullify the entirety of a terran's army for 15 seconds regardless of how entrenched the position is. And they're not strictly useless.. they move fast. They're pretty much the best scouting tool Protoss has. If an observer gets scanned, it's dead. Corsairs can run away from anything besides a whole bunch of goliaths turning a corner. But if the T has a whole bunch of goliaths, their ground vs ground army is quite a bit weaker too. In a 200/200 scenario, I'd ALWAYS rather have 4 corsairs with d-web over one shuttle with 3 zealots. After trading gateway units for tanks at 11 minutes, instead of taking more bases, go d-web! If T scans you and sees one stargate and a fleet beacon at 13 minutes - they'll assume there's another stargate somewhere and start prepping for carriers. Corsair D-web comes online quite a lot faster than carriers. D-web only takes 50 seconds to research. You can STUFF their pre-carrier timing push with d-web. If they don't scan/push and play defensive, d-web cracks a base every time you push. I honestly can't think of a situation where it would be worthwhile to research Argus Jewel, since it takes 100 seconds to research.. but 2 webs per corsair does seem pretty insane. It takes 3:54 to charge 2 D-Webs. Most of the benefit of zealot bombs is not just switching between targets. Tanks literally take time to swivel their turret. You lose something to the tune of 0.5-1.0 seconds that they don't fire on incoming enemy. If they do it twice, you dropped behind the siege line and they have to spin twice, that is 1-2 seconds delay - literally %33-65 of reload time. Two consecutive drops are like 1 missed volley. It is priceless. What is more, I just watched Rain vs Ssak on Namkraft. Rain literally lost time on Dragoons just to push mines between SCVs and siege tanks. It is only by grace of 2 vultures that Ssak was able to disarm them in time while Dragoons were struggling to get through the SCVs. Zealot bombs don't just delay entrenchments, they also break them by triggering mines. I forgot to say they also trigger friendly fire. D-Webs don't. What is even more it takes 25.2 and 37.8 seconds to train a zealot and a shuttle respectively. That's really cool information. Thanks for that! I agree that MOST of the time corsairs aren't a sensible option in PvT. But consider this specific game state: You've just attempted to crack the 3rd at like 11:20 using a big gateway man push off 4 bases - and you succeeded in trading away about 50 supply in the Terran army, but the T kept his 3rd up. He has 1 armory. You have 1 forge. Your robo has only made observers - no robotics support bay - no speed for shuttles. You can't crack the 3rd with another push because of tanks in the back line on high ground, but Terran also can't move out against you. So, Terran gets the 2nd armory and turtles on 3 bases.. You know you have about 3 or 4 minutes to play with before a big push or Terran secures his 4th. You have 3 gas. Your tech is delayed, but you have attack upgrades. You lost a lot of zealots but you kept a bunch of your goons alive. In this specific situation, most Protoss players would expand again, and try to catch up with delayed storm and drop tech. I'm proposing that in this situation, instead of expanding again - and trying to survive with fewer storms than you really need, only to get flattened by the follow-up push and strong Terran economy... You put down a stargate, pop out 2-3 corsairs, and research disruption web. It seems to me like d-web is the only thing in that situation that can swing the game, because your high goon count ensures that the Terran army has to move together, but by moving together it becomes more vulnerable to d-web. Either take an actually cost-effective trade against their army when they push out so you can expand again and THEN tech, or completely sack their 4th base, and have a couple d-webs in reserve to take the cost-effective trade in a 4-3 base scenario. I don't know if it's completely tenable, but it seems like a better option than expanding to a quick 5th and just dying. I was going to say I agree once you have 200/200, protoss has a whole another arsenal of units squeezing water out of rock with hallucinated units and D-Webs. Though it needs someone smarter than me to push ahead with this. I cannot even decide how many hatcheries in my gameplay. This is going to sound the Most sacreligious - but that push doesn't need templar tech. So, just skip storm until you have your D-web pressure running. 200 gas for templar archives. 200 gas for storm. 600 gas for 4 HTs. That's 1000 gas. 150 for stargate. 200 for fleet beacon. 200 for d-web. 4 corsairs. 950 gas. I think it can actually work. I think D-Webs need Reavers, or Carriers to shine. You need some trump card, or air attack to make the 15 seconds ground disable count. The problem is not siege tanks, it is all the support units surrounding them that Dragoons struggle with. About High Templars, consider this: you cast 5 storms, 1 hallucinate. You end up with 2 hallucinated high templars and make 2 archons from 2 high templars and 2 hallucinated ones. Alternatively, you cast 2 storms from 1 HT. The second HT hallucinates it. You make an Archon from the depleted HT and hallucination. When the Archon is summoned you hallucinate the Archon and make a second Archon from the other HT hallucination with the second HT. Thereby, you end up with 2 Archons, 2 hallucinated Archons from 2 HTs. Imagine 1 psyonic storm, 1 Archon and 1 hallucinated Archon from 1 HT - that is 1080HP from 2 depleted HT's. I think there is a whole another side to starcraft unbeknownst to us.
Sounds cool vs zerg and maybe protoss, but do not those archons still receive double damage?.. Also storm effectively saves up more of your units by killing enemy units in mass, I think
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On March 07 2025 17:00 iopq wrote:
You guys are sleeping on parasite. Imagine you either force a unit to be taken out of the army or track where the while Protoss army is. It's way better than broodling early game. Put it on archons, corsairs and shuttles.
If they sack the unit or put it in the corner of the map it's the same result as casting broodling, the unit doesn't participate. If they do keep it around, the vision benefits are even better
Since when do protoss worry about zerg vision?
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On March 07 2025 17:03 SiarX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2025 08:11 mtcn77 wrote:On March 07 2025 08:00 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 07 2025 07:36 mtcn77 wrote:On March 07 2025 07:30 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 07 2025 06:30 mtcn77 wrote:On March 07 2025 05:22 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 20:51 SiarX wrote:On March 06 2025 07:43 ThunderJunk wrote:On March 06 2025 01:14 SiarX wrote:
[quote]
No, because insta kill of tank (with queen likely surviving, since terran mech anti-air is not very good vs zerg) is so much better than 15 secs D-web. It basically puts terran mech on death clock timer, like carriers.
But with Corsairs, you get to decide before the engagement where the web will go, so you can lock out the defenses at a 3rd or 4th. You can also put a dweb between two tanks, even if they're spaced out and still lock out 2 tanks, whereas broodlings can only get 1 tank in that scenario. Low goon count? All zealots? Lots of spider mines? Dweb solves that problem too. Spider mines don't activate under D-web. And funny you should mention carriers.. we already have a fleet beacon! So the transition to carriers is that much closer. Vs mech queen does things, which no other zerg unit can do. Corsair does the same thing which zealot +shuttles do, but worse because corsairs contribute nothing otherwise (zealots might even survive,and if they do not, they do not remain a dead supply), take long time to build energy and make your ground army weaker. How many well-spread tanks, vulture-supported can you invalidate in a fight with 3 zealots in a shuttle? That's the same supply as 4 corsairs with disruption web, which can nullify the entirety of a terran's army for 15 seconds regardless of how entrenched the position is. And they're not strictly useless.. they move fast. They're pretty much the best scouting tool Protoss has. If an observer gets scanned, it's dead. Corsairs can run away from anything besides a whole bunch of goliaths turning a corner. But if the T has a whole bunch of goliaths, their ground vs ground army is quite a bit weaker too. In a 200/200 scenario, I'd ALWAYS rather have 4 corsairs with d-web over one shuttle with 3 zealots. After trading gateway units for tanks at 11 minutes, instead of taking more bases, go d-web! If T scans you and sees one stargate and a fleet beacon at 13 minutes - they'll assume there's another stargate somewhere and start prepping for carriers. Corsair D-web comes online quite a lot faster than carriers. D-web only takes 50 seconds to research. You can STUFF their pre-carrier timing push with d-web. If they don't scan/push and play defensive, d-web cracks a base every time you push. I honestly can't think of a situation where it would be worthwhile to research Argus Jewel, since it takes 100 seconds to research.. but 2 webs per corsair does seem pretty insane. It takes 3:54 to charge 2 D-Webs. Most of the benefit of zealot bombs is not just switching between targets. Tanks literally take time to swivel their turret. You lose something to the tune of 0.5-1.0 seconds that they don't fire on incoming enemy. If they do it twice, you dropped behind the siege line and they have to spin twice, that is 1-2 seconds delay - literally %33-65 of reload time. Two consecutive drops are like 1 missed volley. It is priceless. What is more, I just watched Rain vs Ssak on Namkraft. Rain literally lost time on Dragoons just to push mines between SCVs and siege tanks. It is only by grace of 2 vultures that Ssak was able to disarm them in time while Dragoons were struggling to get through the SCVs. Zealot bombs don't just delay entrenchments, they also break them by triggering mines. I forgot to say they also trigger friendly fire. D-Webs don't. What is even more it takes 25.2 and 37.8 seconds to train a zealot and a shuttle respectively. That's really cool information. Thanks for that! I agree that MOST of the time corsairs aren't a sensible option in PvT. But consider this specific game state: You've just attempted to crack the 3rd at like 11:20 using a big gateway man push off 4 bases - and you succeeded in trading away about 50 supply in the Terran army, but the T kept his 3rd up. He has 1 armory. You have 1 forge. Your robo has only made observers - no robotics support bay - no speed for shuttles. You can't crack the 3rd with another push because of tanks in the back line on high ground, but Terran also can't move out against you. So, Terran gets the 2nd armory and turtles on 3 bases.. You know you have about 3 or 4 minutes to play with before a big push or Terran secures his 4th. You have 3 gas. Your tech is delayed, but you have attack upgrades. You lost a lot of zealots but you kept a bunch of your goons alive. In this specific situation, most Protoss players would expand again, and try to catch up with delayed storm and drop tech. I'm proposing that in this situation, instead of expanding again - and trying to survive with fewer storms than you really need, only to get flattened by the follow-up push and strong Terran economy... You put down a stargate, pop out 2-3 corsairs, and research disruption web. It seems to me like d-web is the only thing in that situation that can swing the game, because your high goon count ensures that the Terran army has to move together, but by moving together it becomes more vulnerable to d-web. Either take an actually cost-effective trade against their army when they push out so you can expand again and THEN tech, or completely sack their 4th base, and have a couple d-webs in reserve to take the cost-effective trade in a 4-3 base scenario. I don't know if it's completely tenable, but it seems like a better option than expanding to a quick 5th and just dying. I was going to say I agree once you have 200/200, protoss has a whole another arsenal of units squeezing water out of rock with hallucinated units and D-Webs. Though it needs someone smarter than me to push ahead with this. I cannot even decide how many hatcheries in my gameplay. This is going to sound the Most sacreligious - but that push doesn't need templar tech. So, just skip storm until you have your D-web pressure running. 200 gas for templar archives. 200 gas for storm. 600 gas for 4 HTs. That's 1000 gas. 150 for stargate. 200 for fleet beacon. 200 for d-web. 4 corsairs. 950 gas. I think it can actually work. I think D-Webs need Reavers, or Carriers to shine. You need some trump card, or air attack to make the 15 seconds ground disable count. The problem is not siege tanks, it is all the support units surrounding them that Dragoons struggle with. About High Templars, consider this: you cast 5 storms, 1 hallucinate. You end up with 2 hallucinated high templars and make 2 archons from 2 high templars and 2 hallucinated ones. Alternatively, you cast 2 storms from 1 HT. The second HT hallucinates it. You make an Archon from the depleted HT and hallucination. When the Archon is summoned you hallucinate the Archon and make a second Archon from the other HT hallucination with the second HT. Thereby, you end up with 2 Archons, 2 hallucinated Archons from 2 HTs. Imagine 1 psyonic storm, 1 Archon and 1 hallucinated Archon from 1 HT - that is 1080HP from 2 depleted HT's. I think there is a whole another side to starcraft unbeknownst to us. Sounds cool vs zerg and maybe protoss, but do not those archons still receive double damage?.. Also storm effectively saves up more of your units by killing enemy units in mass, I think
You can trade between 6 psionic storms from 2 HTs lategame all you want. Hallucinate is still 50% faster than psionic storm to research at the beginning of the game. I tried it in a game. It needs more work, you wait more than the second HT for a hallucination, more like a third.
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I watched zelot vs scan CNSL5 6th game over two years ago and I think I'm correct in assuming guardian rushes need air superiority on the zerg's part. Scan moves out with valkyries and M&M. Zelot's guardians are in the open and he doesn't order the hydralisks to target 7 valkyries. What happens next is a complete steamroll. Guardians should come only after devourers since there isn't a way to protect them once marines take attack priority and valkyries can clean house. What instead should happen is devourers to cover for guardians coupled with hydralisks.
PS: Zelot could have opted for 9 devourers 3 guardians and 5 mutalisks instead of 8 guardians 9 mutalisks and 14 hydralisks. They have the same investment cost.
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Netherlands5195 Posts
Guardian rushes need air only terrain first of all, preferably a high ground area at the Terran's natural where the gas is exposed. And just forget about it if Terran has 2 port already and scanned your greater spire. If you don't surprise the Terran with it, you shouldn't win.
Zelot was in a scenario he should never be in. Resources spent on devourers wouldn't help him there. Devourers suck ass, because they're literally an anti air support unit. Their cooldown sucks, their speed sucks, their cost sucks. Everything about them sucks in your average TvZ, Building them to first to gain aiir superiority is just auto-loss.
The only time you should build Devourer is when you have useless (hurt) mutalisks and you're sieging Terran's natural with Guardians while terran is spamming wraiths to hold on for dear life while sitting fortified with turret/tank/bunker/mm.
Zelot is probably the most likely to build guardians because his play style is literally all in, which is something Scan is well aware of, and also why Zelot never accomplished anything big in BW.
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On March 10 2025 22:54 Peeano wrote:
Guardian rushes need air only terrain first of all, preferably a high ground area at the Terran's natural where the gas is exposed. And just forget about it if Terran has 2 port already and scanned your greater spire. If you don't surprise the Terran with it, you shouldn't win.
Zelot was in a scenario he should never be in. Resources spent on devourers wouldn't help him there. Devourers suck ass, because they're literally an anti air support unit. Their cooldown sucks, their speed sucks, their cost sucks. Everything about them sucks in your average TvZ, Building them to first to gain aiir superiority is just auto-loss.
The only time you should build Devourer is when you have useless (hurt) mutalisks and you're sieging Terran's natural with Guardians while terran is spamming wraiths to hold on for dear life while sitting fortified with turret/tank/bunker/mm.
Zelot is probably the most likely to build guardians because his play style is literally all in, which is something Scan is well aware of, and also why Zelot never accomplished anything big in BW.
Just before the big engage at 18:00 he just lost 9 mutalisks. Those could be revitalized into devourers and terran had 0 armor, likewise for zelot. That is not the gist of it, though. He was traversing the plateau with his guardians. If he had an air army, he could coast outside of the ridge and expect valkyries to come. He was flying above the plateau just because he was counting on the ground hydralisk cover to provide safe passage for the guardians. I don't think guardians are good vs buildings. They are only good against marines because they are small units that hydralisks lose 50% of their dps fighting against. Guardians keep marines away, devourers and mutalisks keep valkyries away, the rest of the army pick at other things.
PS: I think this army is too overwhelming unless the queen ensnare ability is also used. Whatever the case I don't think that is the only unit composition for a 3150/2850 zerg army.
PS 2: I rechecked and behold, 5 Devourers 9 Mutalisks have 18.2% higher dps than 9 Devourers and 5 Mutalisks. That is 600/200 more resources we can lift up our main army with. That is 8 Hydralisks.
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Netherlands5195 Posts
Valks can outrange mutalisk by a lot, and they can fire twice in the time a devourer can shoot once. Devourers/muta don't keep valks away unless the Terran literally doesn't know how to patrol micro
To fight guardians on air only terrain you need gas. Guardians practically shit on anything that sits on the ground, not just marines.
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On March 10 2025 23:32 Peeano wrote:
Valks can outrange mutalisk by a lot, and they can fire twice in the time a devourer can shoot once. Devourers/muta don't keep valks away unless the Terran literally doesn't know how to patrol micro
To fight guardians on air only terrain you need gas. Guardians practically shit on anything that sits on the ground, not just marines.
Devourers aren't for damage, they are for damage buff. Each attack reduces army by 1. It is no small feat. They are not used just like queen ensnares are not used, eventhough queens have a 9 range from which to cast ensnare to slow the approaching army. They are easier than plague and plague is used every game.
PS: according to liquipedia, devourer acid spores stack up to 7 and increase cooldown by ⅛th. Suppose you hit with the ensnare ability of the queen first - that neutralises stimpack - each marine would be slowed to its original speed and 7 valkyries would hit at 53% rate. I don't know which side of the isle you sit, but I'm taking my chances that is better than what we saw.
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Netherlands5195 Posts
Anything more than 3-4 devourers is a joke. If you can get away with more, It implies you already won but your opponent has Fantasy gg timing.
Buffing muta is not very helpful when Valkyries have twice the range and the same movement speed (and can do patrol micro...) You'd need the ensnare you were talking about, which is even more resources investment on a support unit.
The scenario where you can afford queen/guard/dev/muta, needs ensnare used effectively before you can get guard/dev without dying... ...in which case plague follow up would probably be better >95% of the time.
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EPT
