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United States10029 Posts
On January 27 2025 20:37 mutantmagnet wrote:
Dark Archon isn't as popular at killing defilers because it is a ground unit.
Unlike a vessel which is not impeded by allies nor has its vision obscured by high ground the Dark Archon is much slower at reacting to defilers.
The vision can be mitigated by protoss players not losing their corsairs before hive tech comes into play.but the positional issue can't be mitigated.
Maybe it doesn't need to be but It's obvious why most people, forget about pros, are not happy with the idea of putting a ground based spell caster in front of their army.
Maybe this is the one use case that could make hallucination relevant but so far noone has tried it.
Devourer/ muta is the best air to air unit combo in the game, period.
But there is no point for devourers to be used.
Hydra's has sufficiently carried zerg when corsairs were an issue and terran folds to scourge unless they get battlecruisers which is so rare and has always ended up in small enough numbers hydra plague has been good enough.
The only way you can force zerg to use devourers is to create a secondary objective that devourers can attack after the muta/devo combo wins the air battle.
That means at the pro level you will only see devourer in ZvZ because overlords meet that condition.
If Terran had a building that was valuable while flying then devourers could also see play then.
Devs see play in ZvT guardian rushes to stop wraith/valks from being able to reliably kill the guardians. You just need like 1-2 devourers when you morph the initial guardians and it basically stops Terran's air-air defenses.
Zerg frequently just runs a defiler at a Terran/Protoss army to get a plague off, I'm not sure why Protoss can't do the same with Dark Archons (granted, plague is area of effect and deals tremendous damage while feedback is only on 1 unit, so the risk-reward for getting a big plague off and losing the defiler is more advantageous for Zerg than a DA running forward to get feedback off. Still, I think Protoss could learn a thing from Zerg and occasionally try to snipe defilers before a fight.
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Netherlands4682 Posts
For sure worth it if you combine it with splash storm/archon/rvr. I do think it has got to be game winning to chose this option over feedbacking two enemy templars (and min/gas not spent on maelstrom).
DA being chunky and ground is a big con. If DA could mineralwalk on your own units, that would make it way more viable offensively. And not as broken as if it could fly like a vessel.
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On December 23 2024 12:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I’m quite sure that if people keep playing starcraft at high level, we will end up one day with ghosts being a standard unit.
For what they do, they are extremely cheap. A ghost can basically one shot a shittle, an arbiter, a reaver or a carrier. The only drawback is that no one has the skill to use such an insanely demanding unit on what is without context the most demanding race multitasking wise.
But i can totally see a future where ghosts are standard to defend bases in tvp versus drops or recall and in TvT to neutralize battlecruisers against which they are honestly a very, very strong counter.
I am old enough to remember extremely strong players arguing that we would never see EMP in tvp on this very forum because it was too expensive and too micro intensive. So i wouldn’t discard lockdown. It’s an incredible ability considering how little ghosts cost.
That's the hottest take of 2024 my guy.
Even an infested Terran is better than Ghosts.
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On January 28 2025 02:23 Nirli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2024 12:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I’m quite sure that if people keep playing starcraft at high level, we will end up one day with ghosts being a standard unit.
For what they do, they are extremely cheap. A ghost can basically one shot a shittle, an arbiter, a reaver or a carrier. The only drawback is that no one has the skill to use such an insanely demanding unit on what is without context the most demanding race multitasking wise.
But i can totally see a future where ghosts are standard to defend bases in tvp versus drops or recall and in TvT to neutralize battlecruisers against which they are honestly a very, very strong counter.
I am old enough to remember extremely strong players arguing that we would never see EMP in tvp on this very forum because it was too expensive and too micro intensive. So i wouldn’t discard lockdown. It’s an incredible ability considering how little ghosts cost. That's the hottest take of 2024 my guy. Even an infested Terran is better than Ghosts.
I disagree. Both are trash, but ghost at least has a bit of use: nuke rush. Infested terran has zero use.
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On January 28 2025 04:40 SiarX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2025 02:23 Nirli wrote:On December 23 2024 12:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I’m quite sure that if people keep playing starcraft at high level, we will end up one day with ghosts being a standard unit.
For what they do, they are extremely cheap. A ghost can basically one shot a shittle, an arbiter, a reaver or a carrier. The only drawback is that no one has the skill to use such an insanely demanding unit on what is without context the most demanding race multitasking wise.
But i can totally see a future where ghosts are standard to defend bases in tvp versus drops or recall and in TvT to neutralize battlecruisers against which they are honestly a very, very strong counter.
I am old enough to remember extremely strong players arguing that we would never see EMP in tvp on this very forum because it was too expensive and too micro intensive. So i wouldn’t discard lockdown. It’s an incredible ability considering how little ghosts cost. That's the hottest take of 2024 my guy. Even an infested Terran is better than Ghosts. I disagree. Both are trash, but ghost at least has a bit of use: nuke rush. Infested terran has zero use.
I remember one map that had a neutral CC zerg could infest that made infested terrans viable because they're actually very strong against protoss.
I think the optimal way to play PvT is to do the 11 minute bisu push and then get some corsairs for disruption web. But I'm just a contrarian nobody when it comes down to it.
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Ghosts are the cheapest caster, but they're at the top of the tech tree and require additional research before they're useful. It's real awkward to hit timings.
That said, SK Terran often has spare resources and map control but no way to break hardened positions. Nukes would be a fun solution.
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On January 27 2025 20:37 mutantmagnet wrote:
Maybe it doesn't need to be but It's obvious why most people, forget about pros, are not happy with the idea of putting a ground based spell caster in front of their army.
Maybe this is the one use case that could make hallucination relevant but so far noone has tried it.
It might be worth making hallucinations of HT for this reason. Or whatever high value unit you think Zerg will go after. Zerg likes to come in and snipe HT that are too close to the front line whenever the opportunity is there. But you can use this as a mindgame for better storms or just free damage.
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there were two short periods of time in 2021 and 2022 where ghosts were introduced into the meta by RoyaL. Rush and ssak used them for a short bit after that too but Ghost very quickly faded out of the meta. They were used for TvP mainly as recall defense. Did see Rush try to make a nuke rush vs zerg work to break open the third, but he could not make it consistent.
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On January 28 2025 12:10 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2025 04:40 SiarX wrote:On January 28 2025 02:23 Nirli wrote:On December 23 2024 12:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I’m quite sure that if people keep playing starcraft at high level, we will end up one day with ghosts being a standard unit.
For what they do, they are extremely cheap. A ghost can basically one shot a shittle, an arbiter, a reaver or a carrier. The only drawback is that no one has the skill to use such an insanely demanding unit on what is without context the most demanding race multitasking wise.
But i can totally see a future where ghosts are standard to defend bases in tvp versus drops or recall and in TvT to neutralize battlecruisers against which they are honestly a very, very strong counter.
I am old enough to remember extremely strong players arguing that we would never see EMP in tvp on this very forum because it was too expensive and too micro intensive. So i wouldn’t discard lockdown. It’s an incredible ability considering how little ghosts cost. That's the hottest take of 2024 my guy. Even an infested Terran is better than Ghosts. I disagree. Both are trash, but ghost at least has a bit of use: nuke rush. Infested terran has zero use. I remember one map that had a neutral CC zerg could infest that made infested terrans viable because they're actually very strong against protoss. I think the optimal way to play PvT is to do the 11 minute bisu push and then get some corsairs for disruption web. But I'm just a contrarian nobody when it comes down to it.
That map has not been used for many years.
If you invest in otherwise useless corsairs and wait for energy to gather, you have less dragoons and zealots, and likely die to tank push. Besides, zealot bombing or storm dropping basically does the same job as D-web would.
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On January 28 2025 13:20 QRCode wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2025 20:37 mutantmagnet wrote:
Maybe it doesn't need to be but It's obvious why most people, forget about pros, are not happy with the idea of putting a ground based spell caster in front of their army.
Maybe this is the one use case that could make hallucination relevant but so far noone has tried it. It might be worth making hallucinations of HT for this reason. Or whatever high value unit you think Zerg will go after. Zerg likes to come in and snipe HT that are too close to the front line whenever the opportunity is there. But you can use this as a mindgame for better storms or just free damage.
Too much micro requirement even for pro players for not that big benefit, most likely.
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On January 28 2025 12:24 Severedevil wrote:
Ghosts are the cheapest caster, but they're at the top of the tech tree and require additional research before they're useful. It's real awkward to hit timings.
That said, SK Terran often has spare resources and map control but no way to break hardened positions. Nukes would be a fun solution.
Would not several tanks be cheaper than ghost tech + ghost + nuke? And tanks would not die as easily to even smallest counterattack.
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On January 28 2025 15:24 SiarX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2025 13:20 QRCode wrote:On January 27 2025 20:37 mutantmagnet wrote:
Maybe it doesn't need to be but It's obvious why most people, forget about pros, are not happy with the idea of putting a ground based spell caster in front of their army.
Maybe this is the one use case that could make hallucination relevant but so far noone has tried it. It might be worth making hallucinations of HT for this reason. Or whatever high value unit you think Zerg will go after. Zerg likes to come in and snipe HT that are too close to the front line whenever the opportunity is there. But you can use this as a mindgame for better storms or just free damage. Too much micro requirement even for pro players for not that big benefit, most likely.
Yeah, perhaps. The way I envisioned it though, was that you would send a clone one direction, then HT on the front where the Zerg's not looking. You can get a really good storm, you know like those ones where you kill 8+ hydra, and the upside of 2 really good storms is better than 3 weaker ones. Also, if you can anticipate Zerg's movement like this, then you can sort of guarantee when you get picked, so you have a better idea of how many storms you've got. Sometimes you try to storm and your HT gets picked anyway, so it goes to waste. With this however, you can guarantee something I think. Just my theorycraft as a Protoss player.
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On January 28 2025 15:46 SiarX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2025 12:24 Severedevil wrote:
Ghosts are the cheapest caster, but they're at the top of the tech tree and require additional research before they're useful. It's real awkward to hit timings.
That said, SK Terran often has spare resources and map control but no way to break hardened positions. Nukes would be a fun solution. Would not several tanks be cheaper than ghost tech + ghost + nuke? And tanks would not die as easily to even smallest counterattack.
Covert Ops (50/50) + Cloaking (100/100) + Ocular Implants (100/100) + Nuclear Silo (100/100) + Nuke (200/200/8) + Ghost (25/75/1) costs 575/625/9, which is pretty comparable in price to four tanks + siege (750/550/8). Tanks are more consistent, but they can't break an entrenched lurker + swarm defense. Whereas a nuke forces the Zerg to move its defensive line, either forward to overrun your ghost (which you can d-matrix so it doesn't just die immediately) or backward to get out of the blast radius. If Terran has firebats, they can punish the Zerg for running forward...
Might be practical, might not.
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On January 29 2025 15:56 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2025 15:46 SiarX wrote:On January 28 2025 12:24 Severedevil wrote:
Ghosts are the cheapest caster, but they're at the top of the tech tree and require additional research before they're useful. It's real awkward to hit timings.
That said, SK Terran often has spare resources and map control but no way to break hardened positions. Nukes would be a fun solution. Would not several tanks be cheaper than ghost tech + ghost + nuke? And tanks would not die as easily to even smallest counterattack. Covert Ops (50/50) + Cloaking (100/100) + Ocular Implants (100/100) + Nuclear Silo (100/100) + Nuke (200/200/8) + Ghost (25/75/1) costs 575/625/9, which is pretty comparable in price to four tanks + siege (750/550/8). Tanks are more consistent, but they can't break an entrenched lurker + swarm defense. Whereas a nuke forces the Zerg to move its defensive line, either forward to overrun your ghost (which you can d-matrix so it doesn't just die immediately) or backward to get out of the blast radius. If Terran has firebats, they can punish the Zerg for running forward... Might be practical, might not.
Sounds like a dream scenario. You need a Factory anyway in order to tech.
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I promise this will be the only time I theorycraft a patch that will never happen:
Change Dweb to be actually utilized in PvZ:
- upgradeable from cybernetics core
- Only lasts 10 seconds but only costs 75 energy
- reduce max energy on corsairs from 200 to 125 (maybe 150?);
- energy upgrade in fleet beacon gives them 200 energy (maybe 250?)
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On January 30 2025 01:34 Ideas wrote:
I promise this will be the only time I theorycraft a patch that will never happen:
Change Dweb to be actually utilized in PvZ:
- upgradeable from cybernetics core
- Only lasts 10 seconds but only costs 75 energy
- reduce max energy on corsairs from 200 to 125 (maybe 150?);
- energy upgrade in fleet beacon gives them 200 energy (maybe 250?)
fast dweb can affect PvT ... not sure this is suitable. Terran FE look much more complicate with dweb into play
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I’m quite sure that if people keep playing starcraft at high level, we will end up one day with ghosts being a standard unit.
For what they do, they are extremely cheap. A ghost can basically one shot a shittle, an arbiter, a reaver or a carrier. The only drawback is that no one has the skill to use such an insanely demanding unit on what is without context the most demanding race multitasking wise.
But i can totally see a future where ghosts are standard to defend bases in tvp versus drops or recall and in TvT to neutralize battlecruisers against which they are honestly a very, very strong counter.
I am old enough to remember extremely strong players arguing that we would never see EMP in tvp on this very forum because it was too expensive and too micro intensive. So i wouldn’t discard lockdown. It’s an incredible ability considering how little ghosts cost.
Yes, I was wondering how much longer we have to wait for that after all those years. Especially vs carriers they enable some possibilities of crazy cost efficiency.
www.youtube.com
Edit:
I am too stupid to post a video here, just look on youtube for "Boxers Lockdown vs Nal_rA" and watch a 1 minute video of boxers ghosts dealing with Nal_rAs Carrier fleet. (no nukes used)
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On January 30 2025 01:42 Xeln4g4 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2025 01:34 Ideas wrote:
I promise this will be the only time I theorycraft a patch that will never happen:
Change Dweb to be actually utilized in PvZ:
- upgradeable from cybernetics core
- Only lasts 10 seconds but only costs 75 energy
- reduce max energy on corsairs from 200 to 125 (maybe 150?);
- energy upgrade in fleet beacon gives them 200 energy (maybe 250?) fast dweb can affect PvT ... not sure this is suitable. Terran FE look much more complicate with dweb into play
Hm yea you might be right. very hard to think of how to buff it without affecting PvT too much lol. Not that dweb being used in PvT would necessarily be horrible, but probably not as early as that would allow.
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On January 28 2025 13:20 QRCode wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2025 20:37 mutantmagnet wrote:
Maybe it doesn't need to be but It's obvious why most people, forget about pros, are not happy with the idea of putting a ground based spell caster in front of their army.
Maybe this is the one use case that could make hallucination relevant but so far noone has tried it. It might be worth making hallucinations of HT for this reason. Or whatever high value unit you think Zerg will go after. Zerg likes to come in and snipe HT that are too close to the front line whenever the opportunity is there. But you can use this as a mindgame for better storms or just free damage.
High templar are too cheap and hallucination is too expensive for this combo to be considered.
It takes 1 minute 40 seconds to get back 75 energy.
You are always better off using storm.
But when it comes to Dark archons I don't think anyone trains more than 2.
Therefore spending mana to protect them with illusions, as well as shuttles and arbiters which are also trained at very low numbers, justifies the high cost because you aren't interested in having too much supply taken up by these types of units.
On January 30 2025 01:34 Ideas wrote:
I promise this will be the only time I theorycraft a patch that will never happen:
Change Dweb to be actually utilized in PvZ:
- upgradeable from cybernetics core
- Only lasts 10 seconds but only costs 75 energy
- reduce max energy on corsairs from 200 to 125 (maybe 150?);
- energy upgrade in fleet beacon gives them 200 energy (maybe 250?)
I have been thinking about how dweb could be different and I think the best thing that could happen is if it was cancellable if the caster was stunned, killed or manually activated the cancellation.
I get why some people ask for longer webs but I personally wish I had more control on when I wanted them around. At the same time dwebs getting stronger through manual cancel should be easier to counter hence they should also be cancelled through death or stasis/lockdown.
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On January 28 2025 02:23 Nirli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2024 12:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I’m quite sure that if people keep playing starcraft at high level, we will end up one day with ghosts being a standard unit.
For what they do, they are extremely cheap. A ghost can basically one shot a shittle, an arbiter, a reaver or a carrier. The only drawback is that no one has the skill to use such an insanely demanding unit on what is without context the most demanding race multitasking wise.
But i can totally see a future where ghosts are standard to defend bases in tvp versus drops or recall and in TvT to neutralize battlecruisers against which they are honestly a very, very strong counter.
I am old enough to remember extremely strong players arguing that we would never see EMP in tvp on this very forum because it was too expensive and too micro intensive. So i wouldn’t discard lockdown. It’s an incredible ability considering how little ghosts cost. That's the hottest take of 2024 my guy. Even an infested Terran is better than Ghosts.
Why is that? Lockdown seems like a crazy good spell on paper and ghosts are pretty cheap. Outside of being super micro intensive, what makes ghosts so bad in your opinion?
I can see in the future ghosts being used to freeze shuttles mid air or as a counter to carrier. I realize it would require god like multitasking, but it also seems to me that people are getting better and constantly pushing the boundaries of what was thought to be realistically possible.
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EPT
