EPTThere's more use for dweb in PvZ, I'd say...
Corsairs are useful for triggering turret aggro, but from midgame onwards, so is just yoloing an extra shuttle.
Thoughts on rarely used units - Page 4
| Forum Index > BW General |
|
Soulforged
Latvia917 Posts
There's more use for dweb in PvZ, I'd say... Corsairs are useful for triggering turret aggro, but from midgame onwards, so is just yoloing an extra shuttle. | ||
|
SiarX
102 Posts
On March 06 2025 00:58 ThunderJunk wrote: The same argument can be made about queens in ZvT. J/S  No, because insta kill of tank (with queen likely surviving, since terran mech anti-air is not very good vs zerg) is so much better than 15 secs D-web. It basically puts terran mech on death clock timer, like carriers. | ||
|
SiarX
102 Posts
On March 04 2025 19:58 Soft_General_5023 wrote: how about queens zvp? i am watching snow and if it goes to late game he just storms everything and wins Sometimes they are used in very late ZvP to snipe HTs. By that time corsairs are long gone. | ||
|
SiarX
102 Posts
On March 05 2025 23:59 mtcn77 wrote: I think devourers and infested terrans could see use if zerg played hive more. The reason I say this is because the units to sustain these units need hive tech which is late. Are devourers and mutalisks that much more economical than ultraling+defilers? Are infested terran pushes viable when the infested command center can be reclaimed by terran at any time if the base isn't overrun by zerg which never happens in a current zvt game. Either the base is abandoned, or cleared from zerg before the command center can be infested by a queen. I say this because they reflect a staying power deficit in the zerg air arsenal. A single valkyrie can disperse the air superiority and it never goes past the instantaneous zerg skirmish. There is never a zerg air endgame goal in sight. The way zerg is designed is you should take fights with guardians, ensnaring queens and plaging defilers at the same time under static hydralisk defence while devourers modify mutalisk and hydralisk damage output 300% and 200% respectively. However splash damage is a fact and you cannot wait while the enemy withers and dies when you are the weaker party. Also, guardians and hydralisks effectively have the same dps making high tech a dilemma for zerg. The question is what devourers can be used for. When zerg faces big threat from air? Carriers almost never are built vs zerg, wraiths come too early for devourers to be available, valkyries are dealt with by scourges + mutas... They are great only in muta wars. Unfortunately ZvZ in 98% cases ends before hive tech. As for infested terrans, I do not see point of their existence. Slow melee suicide bombers... marines kill them so easily. | ||
|
mtcn77
Turkey318 Posts
On March 06 2025 01:19 SiarX wrote: The question is what devourers can be used for. When zerg faces big threat from air? Carriers almost never are built vs zerg, wraiths come too early for devourers to be available, valkyries are dealt with by scourges + mutas... They are great only in muta wars. Unfortunately ZvZ in 98% cases ends before hive tech. As for infested terrans, I do not see point of their existence. Slow melee suicide bombers... marines kill them so easily. Quick note: 9 Devourers and 3 Mutalisks have the same dps as ~14.4 Mutalisks. When combined, however, the dps count is equal to 57.5 Mutalisks(equal to a 3.9866x increase). That is 9 devourers and 3+14, 17, mutalisks for you. This is profound, hold on to that for a second. I went back to how much a comparable hydralisk+guardian combo would do. 26 Hydralisks plus 12 Guardians have comparable cost to 9 Devourers +17 Mutalisks, however against air, the air army of Devourers+Mutalisks is 43.75% stronger! I haven't mixed Devourers with Hydralisks. You can say Devourers 1.9x hydralisk strength, 3x mutalisk strength, so you can trust in Devourers ability to soften up air targets. PS: okay I have found a simpler way to compare Hydralisks vs Mutalisks. When 9 Devourers are present, a Mutalisk has 2x higher dps than a Hydralisk. That is essentially 1 Mutalisk with devourers equals 2 hydralisks without devourers. Make the most of it. I think the issue with zerg can be stated as such: air to air units hit 2x as much as ground to air units which they themselves, hydralisks, hit as much as air to ground units while twice cheaper. That makes zerg air to ground 4 times more expensive than air to air. 1 mutalisk= 2hydralisks= 2guardians. You heard that right: two of the upgraded units hit only as much as 1 of the unupgraded units! Essentially, Guardians are 2.8 times more mineral intensive 4 times more gas intensive than Mutalisks, past their initial 9 Devourer investment. It is a sizable investment, though: it is equal to 19.8/13.5 times what a Mutalisk costs. It also means 9 Devourers+9 Mutalisks have the same dps as 21.375 Hydralisks in air battles and 32 Mutalisks. Against ground, 2 Hydralisks= 3Mutalisks= 2Guardians. Looking at these numbers, it is amazing how crazy expensive zerg air is. Even in the best case, Mutalisks only offload 50 minerals cost for 50 vespene gas if they equal 2 Hydralisks fighting air. It is much better making Hydralisks since they aren't vespene gas dependent, although larva dependent. I wonder if this could be used for some kind of lategame rush 9 Devourers and 9 Mutalisks for air superiority... 9D9M costs 3650/2250 while 9D12H costs 3550/1650. Remember 32 Mutalisks cost 4000/3200. Are there any games with 32 Mutalisks spawned in total? 2 Hatch muta into 9D12H could be a thing. | ||
|
ThunderJunk
United States675 Posts
On March 06 2025 01:14 SiarX wrote: No, because insta kill of tank (with queen likely surviving, since terran mech anti-air is not very good vs zerg) is so much better than 15 secs D-web. It basically puts terran mech on death clock timer, like carriers. But with Corsairs, you get to decide before the engagement where the web will go, so you can lock out the defenses at a 3rd or 4th. You can also put a dweb between two tanks, even if they're spaced out and still lock out 2 tanks, whereas broodlings can only get 1 tank in that scenario. Low goon count? All zealots? Lots of spider mines? Dweb solves that problem too. Spider mines don't activate under D-web. And funny you should mention carriers.. we already have a fleet beacon! So the transition to carriers is that much closer. | ||
|
ThunderJunk
United States675 Posts
On March 06 2025 01:05 Soulforged wrote: 125 energy for 15 second effect from a 2 supply unit is just not that good for a PvT engagement. There's more use for dweb in PvZ, I'd say... Corsairs are useful for triggering turret aggro, but from midgame onwards, so is just yoloing an extra shuttle. If you look at any 140+ supply engagement, the first 15 seconds of the engagement are basically determinate of the outcome of the fight. Imagine, opponent has 12 tanks - and you can invalidate 8 of them - even if they're spread out - for 8 supply. What other Protoss unit can do that? | ||
|
Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On March 05 2025 20:02 Biff The Understudy wrote: How did you avoid getting zoned by goons? Queens work against mech because terran usually lacks substantial anti air when going heavily tank / vultures. Terran almost always gets anti-air against Zerg, or else their fancy mech army dies to a hotkey of mutas. And goliaths are much better anti-air than dragoons, so I doubt that's the reason Zerg rarely use broodlings against Protoss. | ||
|
Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On March 06 2025 07:53 ThunderJunk wrote: If you look at any 140+ supply engagement, the first 15 seconds of the engagement are basically determinate of the outcome of the fight. Imagine, opponent has 12 tanks - and you can invalidate 8 of them - even if they're spread out - for 8 supply. What other Protoss unit can do that? D-web is just worse than psystorm in all metrics and the Corsair is just not very useful against Terran. | ||
|
HolySmokes
56 Posts
 | ||
|
mtcn77
Turkey318 Posts
PS: can anybody test out hydralisks and devourers? If we can bridge the gap between mutalisks and hydra-devourer, I think zerg can have a better lategame staying power. TL;DR: it might relieve tremendous pressure of the zerg economy to deal dps by making +1 devourer per every 4 hydralisk and 10 mutalisks. TL;DR 2: you won't believe this. 22 Mutalisks and 32 Hydralisks have the same initial mineral cost structure. 22 Mutalisks cost 2750/2200, 32 Hydralisks cost 2800/800. | ||
|
Navane
Netherlands2748 Posts
| ||
|
mtcn77
Turkey318 Posts
On March 06 2025 17:56 Navane wrote: Why aren't we using queens to snipe HTs instead of mutas? Is it just the wait time? I often see like 9-11 mutas being sacked to kill 4-6 HTs. Maybe half the resources in queens can do the job? Queens require 2 minutes to save the energy to kill a unit that takes half a minute to warp and can cast storm just after 15 seconds thereafter. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands4980 Posts
With mutas you barely have to plan ahead, with Queens you do. It's more viable once a player is more predictable. Mutas you can fly in and just right click those hts, Queens you gotta clone and then you still need vision first. Queens are not as practical, even if they can do the same job cheaper. 4-6 templar will likely do 1k/1k worth of damage and potentially a lot more when they survive fights, so sacking mutas and not having to worry about having to dodge storms for a while is fine. APM/attention is a resource as well and shortage of min/gas you don't have to worry about until it's time to. TL;DR: Queens are only ideal cost wise, and if you are clairvoyant. | ||
|
mtcn77
Turkey318 Posts
•Option 1: by making hydralisks. In this case, you need 700/200 every 8 Hydralisks. It can be harvested at a speed of 12 Hydralisks every minute since a vespene gas brings 300/m. You need 20 drones to mine 1050/m, 4 drones for likely optimal vespene saturation. 13.5 larvae per minute requires ~2.835 hatcheries. It takes no more than 2:40 minutes to harvest this sum from 2 bases with 3 harcheries and 28 drones. Once you reach 32 hydralisks you make hive, greater spire and devourers. 9450/3150. Option 2: by making Mutalisks. Even at best, single base 300 per minute vespene harvesting rate is very cost prohibitive. You need some 3 bases just to jump start the initial mutalisks down to 2:47. Tech takes 4000/650. 22 Mutalisks take 2200/2200, 9 Devourers take 2450/1350. 8650/4200. | ||
|
SiarX
102 Posts
On March 06 2025 07:43 ThunderJunk wrote: But with Corsairs, you get to decide before the engagement where the web will go, so you can lock out the defenses at a 3rd or 4th. You can also put a dweb between two tanks, even if they're spaced out and still lock out 2 tanks, whereas broodlings can only get 1 tank in that scenario. Low goon count? All zealots? Lots of spider mines? Dweb solves that problem too. Spider mines don't activate under D-web. And funny you should mention carriers.. we already have a fleet beacon! So the transition to carriers is that much closer. Vs mech queen does things, which no other zerg unit can do. Corsair does the same thing which zealot +shuttles do, but worse because corsairs contribute nothing otherwise (zealots might even survive,and if they do not, they do not remain a dead supply), take long time to build energy and make your ground army weaker. | ||
|
SiarX
102 Posts
On March 06 2025 17:56 Navane wrote: Why aren't we using queens to snipe HTs instead of mutas? Is it just the wait time? I often see like 9-11 mutas being sacked to kill 4-6 HTs. Maybe half the resources in queens can do the job? They are used in very late ZvP sometimes. Before that though scarce resources are not an issue, and protoss replaces HTs easily. Meanwhile zerg whose army is weaker because of queens built can dies easily to push. Mutas are more scary and universal threat. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24984 Posts
On March 06 2025 20:29 mtcn77 wrote: Question: how do you scale the economy while you make 9 devourers? •Option 1: by making hydralisks. In this case, you need 700/200 every 8 Hydralisks. It can be harvested at a speed of 12 Hydralisks every minute since a vespene gas brings 300/m. You need 20 drones to mine 1050/m, 4 drones for likely optimal vespene saturation. 13.5 larvae per minute requires ~2.835 hatcheries. It takes no more than 2:40 minutes to harvest this sum from 2 bases with 3 harcheries and 28 drones. Once you reach 32 hydralisks you make hive, greater spire and devourers. 9450/3150. Option 2: by making Mutalisks. Even at best, single base 300 per minute vespene harvesting rate is very cost prohibitive. You need some 3 bases just to jump start the initial mutalisks down to 2:47. Tech takes 4000/650. 22 Mutalisks take 2200/2200, 9 Devourers take 2450/1350. 8650/4200. What would you be making Devourers to fight against? What’s the scenario and the use case, and how do the timings match up versus common T and P styles and compositions? It’s like you just theorycraft in a manner completely devoid of what an opponent can actually do, and is likely to do. Hey I fucking suck at BW, what do I know? Just pumping hydras and pushing for devourers who can’t shoot down, isn’t it pretty trivial to build an anti-hydra comp and just ignore the devourers? You’ll have to cut something, be it fewer lurkers or squeezing fewer defilers/or at a later timing. Cool I’ll cut a few gateway units to get me a quicker reaver or two, good luck engaging a handful of Templars, with reaver support. Add some extra tanks to your standard SK Terran, or mech switch and what are you doing with that comp? Perhaps I’m just taking crazy pills here but I really don’t think I am | ||
|
mtcn77
Turkey318 Posts
On March 06 2025 21:43 WombaT wrote: What would you be making Devourers to fight against? What’s the scenario and the use case, and how do the timings match up versus common T and P styles and compositions? It’s like you just theorycraft in a manner completely devoid of what an opponent can actually do, and is likely to do. Hey I fucking suck at BW, what do I know? Just pumping hydras and pushing for devourers who can’t shoot down, isn’t it pretty trivial to build an anti-hydra comp and just ignore the devourers? You’ll have to cut something, be it fewer lurkers or squeezing fewer defilers/or at a later timing. Cool I’ll cut a few gateway units to get me a quicker reaver or two, good luck engaging a handful of Templars, with reaver support. Add some extra tanks to your standard SK Terran, or mech switch and what are you doing with that comp? Perhaps I’m just taking crazy pills here but I really don’t think I am The costs are so high, I get your point. I did it to see if you can amass some guardians into the mix in order to take the heat away from them. Purely 32 Hydralisks cost 5400/1100. 3350/2050 to double the effective rate versus air to add more air units to give more ground range seems far fetched. You'll never have enough firepower, Flash always gives up the main and starts busting zergs expansions. You never amass enough for a successful push, let alone defending your bases. | ||
|
stambe
Bulgaria492 Posts
On March 04 2025 18:41 Biff The Understudy wrote: I guess you can also make the point that arbiter achieve the same results through stairs and have other utilities. Saw TY go ghosts and nukes in a game vs Stork this week, but I assume it was for the memes rather than anything else. He did nuke him three times, though, and killed a zillion workers though he ended losing the game. The problem with TY's Ghosts play was that, i guess he doesnt know that Occular Implants upgrade increased Nuke range by 2(he never researched it and it was evident by him trying to circumvent Cannons to try Nuking the Nexus without loosing his Ghost) and he build like 3 barracks to train Ghosts, when he could have just landed his original rax and maybe build one more for x2 production if he needed it. Also he should have build the raxes in a more secure location in his main and also build his Nuclear Silo in his main CC so Stork ísnt aware of the tech until he hears the "Nuclear launch detected" warning. Another problem in his play was that he kinda stopped playing the game and focused on nuking Stork and just sat on his 3-4 bases instead of playing normally and pushing somewhere on the map with his army and nuking somewhere on the other side or even siege a base and nuke it at the same time. Hell, if he didnt do that stupid push at Stork's 3rd where he lost like 12+ tanks and didnt do much he would have probably won the game while trolling with Ghosts at the same time. Last thing: TY didnt seem to invested in trying to make the Ghost works, because a subscriber donated quite a bit of of money to make him use Ghosts or at least thats what i read in the comments of the video. | ||
| ||
