On March 11 2025 21:55 Biff The Understudy wrote: If parasite was so interesting in the mid game (it’s not), terran would research restore and use a medic to get rid of it.
Generally the idea that in a phase of the game where every apm and every second counts and where you can die to a bust because you mismicroed your mutas once or because your lurkers are 4 seconds later than the terran bust, you will make a Queen to get vision by microing it to a vessel and using parasite to get to see stuff you already know are happening is a bit baroque.
Restore costs just as much to research as a queen takes to build - so if you force that reaction off one queen you're still even on resources.
It's going to be a lot easier to keep your mutas alive and time your lurkers correctly if you have an exact read on how the marines are clumped and where the Terran army is.
Would you rather have 9 mutas and be blind or 8 mutas and 1 queen but know exactly what to do with them? You'd save a lot of APM using your Mutas if you didn't have to worry about them running into a bio ball because you know the bio ball is somewhere else - and if the science vessel isn't with the army it's stuck at home and that's more than worth a queen.
If T sees it coming and researches restore, that's one less tank to bust your natural - wouldn't you always be willing to sacrifice one muta to kill one tank?
My point is that terran wouldn’t research restore anyway because zerg wouldn’t bother with it, because at that point of the game it makes zero sense.
The transition between muta harass to lurker and then defiler is on an absolute knife edge, it’s all a matter of seconds and survival. There moment you guys are talking about is after science vessel come out and before defilers are out, that’s a small window where Zerg absolutely knows where terran is: Terran is moving out to kill him. When you have defiler, i don’t think that parasite makes much sense when you have plague instead. You are going to use your resources and apm to reduce the vessel count, not to get some intel that your opponent can easily counter.
As i said there is a niche application for the spell when you are fighting merch and you are making queens anyway.
On March 11 2025 02:44 ThunderJunk wrote: Restoration costs just as much to upgrade as one queen takes to build - so wouldn't it pretty much ALWAYS be worth it to get one queen to parasite the first or second science vessel that comes out?
(I remember seeing a pro parasite a science vessel once and it completely wrecked the Terran's strat because he never felt like he could move his vessel out onto the map and he was effectively just down his first vessel.)
Also, isn't ensnare actually really good? It lasts 40 seconds, makes bio worse, and if you land it on vessels they're doomed to scourge.
So, wouldn't it be sensible to get just one queen every ZvT game?
And Protoss doesn't even have any solution to parasite besides killing their own unit in cold blood. So, why not get one in every ZvP, too?
Zergs should get one or more queen in every zvp game that goes to hive and in most zvt games where hive is started. This is honestly one of the areas where there is most room for improvement.
But parasite vs t is kinda meh, aside from what people are saying, using broodling vs mech. The thing people need to remember is that starcraft isn't a game with just 2 resources - minerals and vespene - but a third one too; attention. Queens require a dedicated hotkey to be used well, and those hotkeys are in limited supply. Parasite has long range, but the utility of it, vs a bio-terran who can get restore to counter it, is pretty limited.
As the - honestly - biggest queen proponent in the western world, and probably the player with the most experience using them, these are the ways queens should be used:
Parasite against mid-late/late game protoss. Throw them on archons and shuttles. Not something to rush for, but no reason not to build 2 queens for this purpose after you've gotten hive and defiler tech - it's definitely worth it, and protoss has no answer. The only downside, honestly, is that this might inspire more protoss players to go for dark archons, and those are pretty good and we should be happy if p doesn't bother with them.
Parasite to help you clone broodling against mech armies. You might only get to do it once before t counters with restore, but that one time is often game winning.
Parasite against protoss players going sair reaver. (Here, you're also getting queens for ensnare, but parasiting a few sairs so you know where the army is headed means your hydras are always in place to defend and suddenly you've neutered part of the strength of sair reaver - that you won't have overlords in place to know where he's going. Protoss will often send their parasited sairs into a corner/suicide them - in this case, keep parasiting, that's obviously worth it for you)
Ensnare: Ensnare vs wraiths is just fantastic Ensnare vs bio if you are going crazy zerg or hydra lurker. But if you're doing a standard muta into lurker into defiler, you should prioritize the defiler, and honestly, queens are a bit too demanding to add to the mix in this scenario. Going crazy zerg though? 100% get queens for ensnare.
Vs protoss, ensnare is less good. It's fantastic against sair reaver (or any really committed sair build), but generally not awesome against protoss ground, especially not if it's a dragoon/templar based army. P can usually wait it out and just storm in that case, and the queens might get picked off. It's not like it's bad - if you manage to ensnare 15 p units then that's definitely annoying for p, but it's not outright game winning.
One exception: In the super late game, when protoss has abandoned goons (because of defilers) and their army consists of mass archon, reavers, templars and zealots, zerg has an army combination that obliterates this, but which hardly ever sees the light of day: The queen guardian (hydra) mix. I've genuinely won a lot of games where protoss had a 12 archon 6 templar 4 reaver lots of zealots army by making this switch - you have parasited the archons, you do a cloned broodling attack on the templars, and then you ensnare the archons and swoop in with guardians. This can genuinely allow a zerg to completely destroy a more costly protoss army, with hardly any losses - completely unheard of if you stick to hydra lurk ling defiler ultra like most do. This is more of a post 25-30 minute thing, but honestly, in games lasting more than 30 minutes, zergs should often make 6-12 queens and utilize all 3 spells. Before that point, generally too costly and knife edgy.
Broodling: Well, vs mech is obvious. This, and to counter wraith play, are the two ways where queens are so obviously good that you frequently see people do it. Aside from that, it's also viable when going hydra lurker and facing bio with double factory tank support.
Additionally, the aforementioned mass broodling vs templar (or even goon templar) in the super late game. Here's an example -
You can see that I've parasited the archon so I have perfect view of the army, then I just clone broodlings and easily kill the base using hydras after. Would defiler lurker ling work? Sure, but it'd almost certainly be more costly - I kill 8 goons, 2 archons, 2 templars, 4 cannons, 2 zealots, while only losing like 8 out of a 24 hydra army, here. All the queens survive and get to broodling more later on.
Queens are APM taxing, this is why zergs usually do not bother getting them. They already have enough on their hands: muta micro, then defiler and lurker micro, larva...
On March 13 2025 02:51 SiarX wrote: Queens are APM taxing, this is why zergs usually do not bother getting them. They already have enough on their hands: muta micro, then defiler and lurker micro, larva...
Queens are viable only vs Mech, wraiths and situationally marines around 10-13 minutes when terran doesnt have absolutely massive marines groups. Also viable in super late game vs protoss but thats rare.
The restore argument some made can work. But I have seen only RoyaL do it because he loves to experiment with rarely used tech. He used restore for his vessels, not vs parasite though.
On March 13 2025 14:56 pyrogenetix wrote: Dark archons have been more and more popular these days in pvz since they directly counter the muta ball sniping templars
Feedback is also amazing against defilers. Mini used it to fast effect against Jaedong this week in their bo7 duel.
On March 13 2025 02:51 SiarX wrote: Queens are APM taxing, this is why zergs usually do not bother getting them. They already have enough on their hands: muta micro, then defiler and lurker micro, larva...
Queens are viable only vs Mech, wraiths and situationally marines around 10-13 minutes when terran doesnt have absolutely massive marines groups. Also viable in super late game vs protoss but thats rare.
The restore argument some made can work. But I have seen only RoyaL do it because he loves to experiment with rarely used tech. He used restore for his vessels, not vs parasite though.
Queens can infest Command Centers, though. It can be a huge Terran counter since Terran is the only race who can float buildings. Infesting the Command Center balances that. Otherwise, Terran is always economically ahead when the base is fully depleted.
EPT
