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On March 11 2025 00:06 Peeano wrote:
Anything more than 3-4 devourers is a joke. If you can get away with more, It implies you already won but your opponent has Fantasy gg timing.
Buffing muta is not very helpful when Valkyries have twice the range and the same movement speed (and can do patrol micro...) You'd need the ensnare you were talking about, which is even more resources investment on a support unit.
The scenario where you can afford queen/guard/dev/muta, needs ensnare used effectively before you can get guard/dev without dying... ...in which case plague follow up would probably be better >95% of the time.
Devourer acid spores last 50.4 seconds according to liquipedia. Also, you recall I compared Zelot's army composition to my 9D5M3G composition and then corrected saying 5D9M3G does more and applied the 600/200 saving for 8 hydralisks. Well, you already have a queen's nest when you go hive for greater spire. Ensnare and Queen is just 100/100 & 100/100 away from that. You are still within budget. It takes only 38 seconds for queen to charge 75 energy for an ensnare. Plague would definitely help, but that would mean Scan is fighting against Action, not Zelot for starters.
PS: it is still possible to cancel 2 more guardians and get 5D11M1G8H1Q army.
PS 2: you can cancel 1 devourer and get 2 more hydralisks as above. 3D13M1G12H1Q is in fact 7.5% better than the above 8 hydralisk composition.
PS 3: I compared upgrades. Ironically, 13 mutalisks and 3 devourers don't make an air attack upgrade as viable as 1 ground attack upgrade for 12 hydralisks. In this case replacing literally 2 mutalisks for half the price.
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United States10251 Posts
On March 11 2025 00:06 Peeano wrote:
Anything more than 3-4 devourers is a joke. If you can get away with more, It implies you already won but your opponent has Fantasy gg timing.
Buffing muta is not very helpful when Valkyries have twice the range and the same movement speed (and can do patrol micro...) You'd need the ensnare you were talking about, which is even more resources investment on a support unit.
The scenario where you can afford queen/guard/dev/muta, needs ensnare used effectively before you can get guard/dev without dying... ...in which case plague follow up would probably be better >95% of the time.
trying to have a proper discussion about starcraft with this guy is a joke. The dude loves fellating himself over numbers and not actually playing the game.
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On March 11 2025 01:10 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2025 00:06 Peeano wrote:
Anything more than 3-4 devourers is a joke. If you can get away with more, It implies you already won but your opponent has Fantasy gg timing.
Buffing muta is not very helpful when Valkyries have twice the range and the same movement speed (and can do patrol micro...) You'd need the ensnare you were talking about, which is even more resources investment on a support unit.
The scenario where you can afford queen/guard/dev/muta, needs ensnare used effectively before you can get guard/dev without dying... ...in which case plague follow up would probably be better >95% of the time. trying to have a proper discussion about starcraft with this guy is a joke. The dude loves fellating himself over numbers and not actually playing the game.
At least I root for the underdog.
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Northern Ireland26218 Posts
On March 11 2025 01:11 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2025 01:10 FlaShFTW wrote:On March 11 2025 00:06 Peeano wrote:
Anything more than 3-4 devourers is a joke. If you can get away with more, It implies you already won but your opponent has Fantasy gg timing.
Buffing muta is not very helpful when Valkyries have twice the range and the same movement speed (and can do patrol micro...) You'd need the ensnare you were talking about, which is even more resources investment on a support unit.
The scenario where you can afford queen/guard/dev/muta, needs ensnare used effectively before you can get guard/dev without dying... ...in which case plague follow up would probably be better >95% of the time. trying to have a proper discussion about starcraft with this guy is a joke. The dude loves fellating himself over numbers and not actually playing the game. At least I root for the underdog.
There is no spoon dog. Regular or under.
People aren’t rooting against it, I dare say many would love to see some revolutionary player redefining metas, or even just the occasional notable win with unfashionable unit compositions.
That would be sick!
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United States10251 Posts
On March 11 2025 01:32 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2025 01:11 mtcn77 wrote:On March 11 2025 01:10 FlaShFTW wrote:On March 11 2025 00:06 Peeano wrote:
Anything more than 3-4 devourers is a joke. If you can get away with more, It implies you already won but your opponent has Fantasy gg timing.
Buffing muta is not very helpful when Valkyries have twice the range and the same movement speed (and can do patrol micro...) You'd need the ensnare you were talking about, which is even more resources investment on a support unit.
The scenario where you can afford queen/guard/dev/muta, needs ensnare used effectively before you can get guard/dev without dying... ...in which case plague follow up would probably be better >95% of the time. trying to have a proper discussion about starcraft with this guy is a joke. The dude loves fellating himself over numbers and not actually playing the game. At least I root for the underdog. There is no spoon dog. Regular or under. People aren’t rooting against it, I dare say many would love to see some revolutionary player redefining metas, or even just the occasional notable win with unfashionable unit compositions. That would be sick!
Exactly this. I loved FlaSh for his ability to 1) change the meta game so well and define the meta, and 2) carry a pretty mediocre KT side to greatness until they finally got reinforcements by developing players like Stats during Kespa era. Not sure how this is relevant at all either.
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I do not think air zerg stands any chance vs mass valkyries, unless he uses ensnare well. Mass devourers will not help, they are support units for mutas, and valks wreck mutas,
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Restoration costs just as much to upgrade as one queen takes to build - so wouldn't it pretty much ALWAYS be worth it to get one queen to parasite the first or second science vessel that comes out?
(I remember seeing a pro parasite a science vessel once and it completely wrecked the Terran's strat because he never felt like he could move his vessel out onto the map and he was effectively just down his first vessel.)
Also, isn't ensnare actually really good? It lasts 40 seconds, makes bio worse, and if you land it on vessels they're doomed to scourge.
So, wouldn't it be sensible to get just one queen every ZvT game?
And Protoss doesn't even have any solution to parasite besides killing their own unit in cold blood. So, why not get one in every ZvP, too?
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United States10251 Posts
On March 11 2025 02:44 ThunderJunk wrote:
Restoration costs just as much to upgrade as one queen takes to build - so wouldn't it pretty much ALWAYS be worth it to get one queen to parasite the first or second science vessel that comes out?
I remember seeing a pro parasite a science vessel once and it completely wrecked the Terran's strat because he never felt like he could move his vessel out onto the map and he was effectively just down his first vessel.
The vessel can just be kept on top of the marines, and honestly once vessels are our and terran begins to get the bio contains at each of the zerg bases, zerg sorta already knows where the terran units are.
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On March 11 2025 02:56 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2025 02:44 ThunderJunk wrote:
Restoration costs just as much to upgrade as one queen takes to build - so wouldn't it pretty much ALWAYS be worth it to get one queen to parasite the first or second science vessel that comes out?
I remember seeing a pro parasite a science vessel once and it completely wrecked the Terran's strat because he never felt like he could move his vessel out onto the map and he was effectively just down his first vessel. The vessel can just be kept on top of the marines, and honestly once vessels are our and terran begins to get the bio contains at each of the zerg bases, zerg sorta already knows where the terran units are.
If the Z main is bottom right, and knows that T is lurking outside the bottom right base, and Z has a third bottom left, there are moments where Z can make a non-gamble, informed judgment call to squeeze out an extra drone or two at the unpressured third. In a scenario where you could squeeze out one extra drone in this way, the queen will have paid for itself and also the drone in just 4.5 minutes... Okay, that doesn't actually sound very impressive in retrospect :\
Getting a parasite on a dropship would feel amazing though 
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On March 11 2025 03:09 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2025 02:56 FlaShFTW wrote:On March 11 2025 02:44 ThunderJunk wrote:
Restoration costs just as much to upgrade as one queen takes to build - so wouldn't it pretty much ALWAYS be worth it to get one queen to parasite the first or second science vessel that comes out?
I remember seeing a pro parasite a science vessel once and it completely wrecked the Terran's strat because he never felt like he could move his vessel out onto the map and he was effectively just down his first vessel. The vessel can just be kept on top of the marines, and honestly once vessels are our and terran begins to get the bio contains at each of the zerg bases, zerg sorta already knows where the terran units are. If the Z main is bottom right, and knows that T is lurking outside the bottom right base, and Z has a third bottom left, there are moments where Z can make a non-gamble, informed judgment call to squeeze out an extra drone or two at the unpressured third. In a scenario where you could squeeze out one extra drone in this way, the queen will have paid for itself and also the drone in just 4.5 minutes... Okay, that doesn't actually sound very impressive in retrospect :\ Getting a parasite on a dropship would feel amazing though
But science vessels are slow. If you play cat and mouse it won't be able to irradiate your mutalisks. That is the point of parasite.
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If parasite was so interesting in the mid game (it’s not), terran would research restore and use a medic to get rid of it.
Generally the idea that in a phase of the game where every apm and every second counts and where you can die to a bust because you mismicroed your mutas once or because your lurkers are 4 seconds later than the terran bust, you will make a Queen to get vision by microing it to a vessel and using parasite to get to see stuff you already know are happening is a bit baroque.
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On March 11 2025 21:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:
If parasite was so interesting in the mid game (it’s not), terran would research restore and use a medic to get rid of it.
Generally the idea that in a phase of the game where every apm and every second counts and where you can die to a bust because you mismicroed your mutas once or because your lurkers are 4 seconds later than the terran bust, you will make a Queen to get vision by microing it to a vessel and using parasite to get to see stuff you already know are happening is a bit baroque.
Parasite is pretty big vs mech when using broodlings. Give u low risk vision of mech armies for easier broodling pre-targeting from further away. Bunch of pros frequently use it like that.
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Netherlands5198 Posts
RJB can you check your inbox at the top left. Thx
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On March 11 2025 22:52 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2025 21:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:
If parasite was so interesting in the mid game (it’s not), terran would research restore and use a medic to get rid of it.
Generally the idea that in a phase of the game where every apm and every second counts and where you can die to a bust because you mismicroed your mutas once or because your lurkers are 4 seconds later than the terran bust, you will make a Queen to get vision by microing it to a vessel and using parasite to get to see stuff you already know are happening is a bit baroque. Parasite is pretty big vs mech when using broodlings. Give u low risk vision of mech armies for easier broodling pre-targeting from further away. Bunch of pros frequently use it like that.
Yup. It’s also a valid option when going ensnare against a wraith build. There is nothing wrong with parasite when you already have queens. It’s a spell that’s situationally quite good.
Going queen when you are transitioning from muta to lurker ti parasite a vessel is something else. If anything, ensnare is super good against those late early game bio balls because it negates stim and allows muta to take out bioballs. But at that super crucial point of the game you have bigger things to worry about than to get vision from a science vessel.
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On March 11 2025 21:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:
If parasite was so interesting in the mid game (it’s not), terran would research restore and use a medic to get rid of it.
Generally the idea that in a phase of the game where every apm and every second counts and where you can die to a bust because you mismicroed your mutas once or because your lurkers are 4 seconds later than the terran bust, you will make a Queen to get vision by microing it to a vessel and using parasite to get to see stuff you already know are happening is a bit baroque.
Restore costs just as much to research as a queen takes to build - so if you force that reaction off one queen you're still even on resources.
It's going to be a lot easier to keep your mutas alive and time your lurkers correctly if you have an exact read on how the marines are clumped and where the Terran army is.
Would you rather have 9 mutas and be blind or 8 mutas and 1 queen but know exactly what to do with them? You'd save a lot of APM using your Mutas if you didn't have to worry about them running into a bio ball because you know the bio ball is somewhere else - and if the science vessel isn't with the army it's stuck at home and that's more than worth a queen.
If T sees it coming and researches restore, that's one less tank to bust your natural - wouldn't you always be willing to sacrifice one muta to kill one tank?
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its not the strength of there army, its the way you move your sword, its not the build... its the essence of the battle
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On March 12 2025 00:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2025 22:52 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On March 11 2025 21:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:
If parasite was so interesting in the mid game (it’s not), terran would research restore and use a medic to get rid of it.
Generally the idea that in a phase of the game where every apm and every second counts and where you can die to a bust because you mismicroed your mutas once or because your lurkers are 4 seconds later than the terran bust, you will make a Queen to get vision by microing it to a vessel and using parasite to get to see stuff you already know are happening is a bit baroque. Parasite is pretty big vs mech when using broodlings. Give u low risk vision of mech armies for easier broodling pre-targeting from further away. Bunch of pros frequently use it like that. Yup. It’s also a valid option when going ensnare against a wraith build. There is nothing wrong with parasite when you already have queens. It’s a spell that’s situationally quite good. Going queen when you are transitioning from muta to lurker ti parasite a vessel is something else. If anything, ensnare is super good against those late early game bio balls because it negates stim and allows muta to take out bioballs. But at that super crucial point of the game you have bigger things to worry about than to get vision from a science vessel.
Not to prove a counter point, but you do know when you have full vision of a unit you can switch to peripheral vision and go about your business while you monitor the unit inside the minimap. Even the best of us are not immune to map awareness. Jaedong lost the groupstage to Light because he assumed Light would go to 5' o'clock base when he went to the main 2' o'clock and he couldn't reach the sunkens with mutalisks in time. A similar thing occured to Bisu, forgot which.
I think map awareness is like proprioception, it is the first skill to go when a Starcraft pro retires.
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On March 12 2025 00:44 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2025 21:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:
If parasite was so interesting in the mid game (it’s not), terran would research restore and use a medic to get rid of it.
Generally the idea that in a phase of the game where every apm and every second counts and where you can die to a bust because you mismicroed your mutas once or because your lurkers are 4 seconds later than the terran bust, you will make a Queen to get vision by microing it to a vessel and using parasite to get to see stuff you already know are happening is a bit baroque. Restore costs just as much to research as a queen takes to build - so if you force that reaction off one queen you're still even on resources. It's going to be a lot easier to keep your mutas alive and time your lurkers correctly if you have an exact read on how the marines are clumped and where the Terran army is. Would you rather have 9 mutas and be blind or 8 mutas and 1 queen but know exactly what to do with them? You'd save a lot of APM using your Mutas if you didn't have to worry about them running into a bio ball because you know the bio ball is somewhere else - and if the science vessel isn't with the army it's stuck at home and that's more than worth a queen. If T sees it coming and researches restore, that's one less tank to bust your natural - wouldn't you always be willing to sacrifice one muta to kill one tank?
If Terran spends mana on restore, that is equal to 10 marines wasting 1 stim. The majority of games Terran loses is because they get scared and overuse stimpacks. The way Zerg wins is doing fake dives until Terran is just out of mana until doing it for real. I think everything about Queens is pure win when faced with bio - oh and one more thing: ensnare doesn't work on terran mech units.
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I went to Dewalt's Twitch stream and wrote
"PvT. Gatewayman. 11:30 push. 200/200. Trade. No templar. Stargate. Corsair. Disruption Web. No 4th. +2 attack. Goons."
He said in his Russian accent,
"What is this, Mr. Thunderjunk"?
I wrote,
"The future."
He replied.
"The future..? Hm. Shitty build."
I respect him.
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EPT
