|
On October 02 2025 00:23 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 00:00 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 01 2025 04:09 mtcn77 wrote: Just watching Larva vs Bisu. Larva understands me. If you would only ensnare the probes, you would do as much economic damage as a psistorm. I would like to see your math on this. Per liquipedia, Ensnare has a size of 128x128 vs Storm's 96x96. Ensnare halves the speed of mining while Storm kills workers. Ensnare has a duration of 25.2 seconds while the production time of a single worker is 12.6, so the loss of mining time from both is technically equal for a single worker, but you can't say that they are equal since for Zerg, there is the additional opportunity cost of using larva to replace workers while races who can produce a single unit at a time from their production facilities have additional time with less mining. Even if we pretend that the loss of mining time is equal, I don't see how Ensnare's greater size makes up the actual mineral cost of replacing workers. You can see a psistorm coming from a million miles away(you play zerg and have overlords) while protoss can't(early game advantage is at zerg), corsairs are dodging scourge, or at least that is what they expect of you. You swoop in with a queen, do a little ensnaring at 9 range and then... swoop away. If you think mutas are fast, queens come up faster. I'm not saying at a base race situation, they fill up different sections of the game which lowers chances of them meeting in the field. HTs are heavy late while queens are right after hydralisk if you dedicate yourself to it. You can cast ensnare on multiple targets you know? Vertically you can ensnare units spread across 5 minerals(wait, I didn't assume for L shaped junctions). Given how populated the mineral patches are, you can really throw a wrench into the protoss economy with queens and that is just the surface level idea. PS: let's say you killed 5 drones with your HT(I'm being generous). You replace the 5 drones from the same hatchery in 75.6 seconds so everything resumes to normal. Then, we have to count the mining loss, that is 433+250=683 minerals loss. Now let us take the alternative, you go to the protoss main, or natural. You ensnare the vertical strip of minerals right at the center. You ensnare just 10 probes(again, being very generous to protoss). In 25.2s, that bunch of probes would mine 245 minerals. You can run away from a psistorm, you cannot run away from an ensnare. 245 minerals worth of economic damage in the mid game is not particularly impressive, especially since it requires the Zerg player to have complete air dominance. Those ensnares would be better off used in army fights where if you can kill 3 Zealots or 2 Dragoons, you've accomplished more.
|
On October 02 2025 02:06 RogueTheGOAT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 00:23 mtcn77 wrote:On October 02 2025 00:00 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On October 01 2025 04:09 mtcn77 wrote: Just watching Larva vs Bisu. Larva understands me. If you would only ensnare the probes, you would do as much economic damage as a psistorm. I would like to see your math on this. Per liquipedia, Ensnare has a size of 128x128 vs Storm's 96x96. Ensnare halves the speed of mining while Storm kills workers. Ensnare has a duration of 25.2 seconds while the production time of a single worker is 12.6, so the loss of mining time from both is technically equal for a single worker, but you can't say that they are equal since for Zerg, there is the additional opportunity cost of using larva to replace workers while races who can produce a single unit at a time from their production facilities have additional time with less mining. Even if we pretend that the loss of mining time is equal, I don't see how Ensnare's greater size makes up the actual mineral cost of replacing workers. You can see a psistorm coming from a million miles away(you play zerg and have overlords) while protoss can't(early game advantage is at zerg), corsairs are dodging scourge, or at least that is what they expect of you. You swoop in with a queen, do a little ensnaring at 9 range and then... swoop away. If you think mutas are fast, queens come up faster. I'm not saying at a base race situation, they fill up different sections of the game which lowers chances of them meeting in the field. HTs are heavy late while queens are right after hydralisk if you dedicate yourself to it. You can cast ensnare on multiple targets you know? Vertically you can ensnare units spread across 5 minerals(wait, I didn't assume for L shaped junctions). Given how populated the mineral patches are, you can really throw a wrench into the protoss economy with queens and that is just the surface level idea. PS: let's say you killed 5 drones with your HT(I'm being generous). You replace the 5 drones from the same hatchery in 75.6 seconds so everything resumes to normal. Then, we have to count the mining loss, that is 433+250=683 minerals loss. Now let us take the alternative, you go to the protoss main, or natural. You ensnare the vertical strip of minerals right at the center. You ensnare just 10 probes(again, being very generous to protoss). In 25.2s, that bunch of probes would mine 245 minerals. You can run away from a psistorm, you cannot run away from an ensnare. 245 minerals worth of economic damage in the mid game is not particularly impressive, especially since it requires the Zerg player to have complete air dominance. Those ensnares would be better off used in army fights where if you can kill 3 Zealots or 2 Dragoons, you've accomplished more. That is the genius of it. You don't have to have air control. Defending from air with hydralisks, but not using them in a 9734 situation which doesn't win any more, is better.
|
Since we are on the topic of Larva versus Bisu, I think Bisu could really have had a much higher chance of winning his match had he just built a fleetbeacon to upgrade his corsairs. The zerg air carpace upgrades made the sairs pretty bad at killing scourge and overlords and dweb would have allowed him to blanket the enemy units on the small islands to support his drops.
It wouldn't have guaranteed a win but I think it would have opened up a lot of tactical options for him late game like:
Drop 4 reavers, dweb the area zerg can target the reavers from, snipe the hatchery, run away.
Or: Dweb the island with your control group of corsairs, kill/ chase away the overlords. Drop 8 DT and kill the hatchery, nydus and/or drones.
|
On October 02 2025 09:20 puppykiller wrote: Since we are on the topic of Larva versus Bisu, I think Bisu could really have had a much higher chance of winning his match had he just built a fleetbeacon to upgrade his corsairs. The zerg air carpace upgrades made the sairs pretty bad at killing scourge and overlords and dweb would have allowed him to blanket the enemy units on the small islands to support his drops.
It wouldn't have guaranteed a win but I think it would have opened up a lot of tactical options for him late game like:
Drop 4 reavers, dweb the area zerg can target the reavers from, snipe the hatchery, run away.
Or: Dweb the island with your control group of corsairs, kill/ chase away the overlords. Drop 8 DT and kill the hatchery, nydus and/or drones.
You know, you could be mistaking it for another match. Larva kept the 4 main ones on the coastline for most of the game. Having the islands would have made zero difference which is ironically the fundamental point in a recent shine vs light game. You cannot rut out the zerg by taking the islands. It does not work that way. Either you play a leta rush, bisu fundamentally did the most of it for a protoss, or fail which bisu did since corsairs can't attack the ground like wraiths in the same rush period. PS: TvT battlereports were very precious. There were one inwhich for the longest part of the game the mech player seemed ahead, but the player who did the leta rush before it got calles that won in the end. I really wish I could comb through battlereports again in their epic form with graphics.
|
On October 02 2025 09:38 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 09:20 puppykiller wrote: Since we are on the topic of Larva versus Bisu, I think Bisu could really have had a much higher chance of winning his match had he just built a fleetbeacon to upgrade his corsairs. The zerg air carpace upgrades made the sairs pretty bad at killing scourge and overlords and dweb would have allowed him to blanket the enemy units on the small islands to support his drops.
It wouldn't have guaranteed a win but I think it would have opened up a lot of tactical options for him late game like:
Drop 4 reavers, dweb the area zerg can target the reavers from, snipe the hatchery, run away.
Or: Dweb the island with your control group of corsairs, kill/ chase away the overlords. Drop 8 DT and kill the hatchery, nydus and/or drones.
You know, you could be mistaking it for another match. Larva kept the 4 main ones on the coastline for most of the game. Having the islands would have made zero difference which is ironically the fundamental point in a recent shine vs light game. You cannot rut out the zerg by taking the islands. It does not work that way. Either you play a leta rush, bisu fundamentally did the most of it for a protoss, or fail which bisu did since corsairs can't attack the ground like wraiths in the same rush period. PS: TvT battlereports were very precious. There were one inwhich for the longest part of the game the mech player seemed ahead, but the player who did the leta rush before it got calles that won in the end. I really wish I could comb through battlereports again in their epic form with graphics.
+ Show Spoiler + Are you talking about the recent Larva vs Bisu game from the ASL? If so Bisu and Larva had even bases on the land sections of the map. By the early late game, Bisu (as the protoss player) was in a position to win a long game of attrition as long as he didn't let Larva get the islands. He screwed up and let Larva get the islands. However, I think that despite this mistake, dweb and air upgrades would have given him an opportunity to make much better attacks that could either secure him islands of his own or kill Larva's island expansions, thus making it an even base game again and putting him in a winning position.
|
On October 02 2025 10:06 puppykiller wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 09:38 mtcn77 wrote:On October 02 2025 09:20 puppykiller wrote: Since we are on the topic of Larva versus Bisu, I think Bisu could really have had a much higher chance of winning his match had he just built a fleetbeacon to upgrade his corsairs. The zerg air carpace upgrades made the sairs pretty bad at killing scourge and overlords and dweb would have allowed him to blanket the enemy units on the small islands to support his drops.
It wouldn't have guaranteed a win but I think it would have opened up a lot of tactical options for him late game like:
Drop 4 reavers, dweb the area zerg can target the reavers from, snipe the hatchery, run away.
Or: Dweb the island with your control group of corsairs, kill/ chase away the overlords. Drop 8 DT and kill the hatchery, nydus and/or drones.
You know, you could be mistaking it for another match. Larva kept the 4 main ones on the coastline for most of the game. Having the islands would have made zero difference which is ironically the fundamental point in a recent shine vs light game. You cannot rut out the zerg by taking the islands. It does not work that way. Either you play a leta rush, bisu fundamentally did the most of it for a protoss, or fail which bisu did since corsairs can't attack the ground like wraiths in the same rush period. PS: TvT battlereports were very precious. There were one inwhich for the longest part of the game the mech player seemed ahead, but the player who did the leta rush before it got calles that won in the end. I really wish I could comb through battlereports again in their epic form with graphics. + Show Spoiler + Are you talking about the recent Larva vs Bisu game from the ASL? If so Bisu and Larva had even bases on the land sections of the map. By the early late game, Bisu (as the protoss player) was in a position to win a long game of attrition as long as he didn't let Larva get the islands. He screwed up and let Larva get the islands. However, I think that despite this mistake, dweb and air upgrades would have given him an opportunity to make much better attacks that could either secure him islands of his own or kill Larva's island expansions, thus making it an even base game again and putting him in a winning position.
I kind of answered that in my reply with shine vs light commentary.
|
On October 02 2025 10:16 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 10:06 puppykiller wrote:On October 02 2025 09:38 mtcn77 wrote:On October 02 2025 09:20 puppykiller wrote: Since we are on the topic of Larva versus Bisu, I think Bisu could really have had a much higher chance of winning his match had he just built a fleetbeacon to upgrade his corsairs. The zerg air carpace upgrades made the sairs pretty bad at killing scourge and overlords and dweb would have allowed him to blanket the enemy units on the small islands to support his drops.
It wouldn't have guaranteed a win but I think it would have opened up a lot of tactical options for him late game like:
Drop 4 reavers, dweb the area zerg can target the reavers from, snipe the hatchery, run away.
Or: Dweb the island with your control group of corsairs, kill/ chase away the overlords. Drop 8 DT and kill the hatchery, nydus and/or drones.
You know, you could be mistaking it for another match. Larva kept the 4 main ones on the coastline for most of the game. Having the islands would have made zero difference which is ironically the fundamental point in a recent shine vs light game. You cannot rut out the zerg by taking the islands. It does not work that way. Either you play a leta rush, bisu fundamentally did the most of it for a protoss, or fail which bisu did since corsairs can't attack the ground like wraiths in the same rush period. PS: TvT battlereports were very precious. There were one inwhich for the longest part of the game the mech player seemed ahead, but the player who did the leta rush before it got calles that won in the end. I really wish I could comb through battlereports again in their epic form with graphics. + Show Spoiler + Are you talking about the recent Larva vs Bisu game from the ASL? If so Bisu and Larva had even bases on the land sections of the map. By the early late game, Bisu (as the protoss player) was in a position to win a long game of attrition as long as he didn't let Larva get the islands. He screwed up and let Larva get the islands. However, I think that despite this mistake, dweb and air upgrades would have given him an opportunity to make much better attacks that could either secure him islands of his own or kill Larva's island expansions, thus making it an even base game again and putting him in a winning position.
I kind of answered that in my reply with shine vs light commentary.
Well...
Correct me if I'm missing something.
Claim1: "You cannot rut out the zerg by taking the islands." "Having the islands would have made zero difference"
Justification: "It does not work that way"
Claim2: "Either you play a leta rush, bisu fundamentally did the most of it for a protoss, or fail which bisu did"
Justification: (refering to an argument I am not making about how this strategy isnt good in the early game) which bisu did since corsairs can't attack the ground like wraiths in the same rush period
If you want to address my argument I think the best way would be to reference pro games in which Dweb is actually used (especially if you can find one played on a map that is similar to the match in question). Also I really think it's a bad idea to reference a TvZ match as part of your explanation of why Bisu lost. TvZ has a very different dynamics in the late game than PvZ because terrans and protoss interact with hive tech zerg very differently.
|
On October 02 2025 15:07 puppykiller wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 10:16 mtcn77 wrote:On October 02 2025 10:06 puppykiller wrote:On October 02 2025 09:38 mtcn77 wrote:On October 02 2025 09:20 puppykiller wrote: Since we are on the topic of Larva versus Bisu, I think Bisu could really have had a much higher chance of winning his match had he just built a fleetbeacon to upgrade his corsairs. The zerg air carpace upgrades made the sairs pretty bad at killing scourge and overlords and dweb would have allowed him to blanket the enemy units on the small islands to support his drops.
It wouldn't have guaranteed a win but I think it would have opened up a lot of tactical options for him late game like:
Drop 4 reavers, dweb the area zerg can target the reavers from, snipe the hatchery, run away.
Or: Dweb the island with your control group of corsairs, kill/ chase away the overlords. Drop 8 DT and kill the hatchery, nydus and/or drones.
You know, you could be mistaking it for another match. Larva kept the 4 main ones on the coastline for most of the game. Having the islands would have made zero difference which is ironically the fundamental point in a recent shine vs light game. You cannot rut out the zerg by taking the islands. It does not work that way. Either you play a leta rush, bisu fundamentally did the most of it for a protoss, or fail which bisu did since corsairs can't attack the ground like wraiths in the same rush period. PS: TvT battlereports were very precious. There were one inwhich for the longest part of the game the mech player seemed ahead, but the player who did the leta rush before it got calles that won in the end. I really wish I could comb through battlereports again in their epic form with graphics. + Show Spoiler + Are you talking about the recent Larva vs Bisu game from the ASL? If so Bisu and Larva had even bases on the land sections of the map. By the early late game, Bisu (as the protoss player) was in a position to win a long game of attrition as long as he didn't let Larva get the islands. He screwed up and let Larva get the islands. However, I think that despite this mistake, dweb and air upgrades would have given him an opportunity to make much better attacks that could either secure him islands of his own or kill Larva's island expansions, thus making it an even base game again and putting him in a winning position.
I kind of answered that in my reply with shine vs light commentary. Well... Correct me if I'm missing something. Claim1:"You cannot rut out the zerg by taking the islands." "Having the islands would have made zero difference" Justification: "It does not work that way" Claim2:"Either you play a leta rush, bisu fundamentally did the most of it for a protoss, or fail which bisu did" Justification: (refering to an argument I am not making about how this strategy isnt good in the early game) which bisu did since corsairs can't attack the ground like wraiths in the same rush period If you want to address my argument I think the best way would be to reference pro games in which Dweb is actually used (especially if you can find one played on a map that is similar to the match in question). Also I really think it's a bad idea to reference a TvZ match as part of your explanation of why Bisu lost. TvZ has a very different dynamics in the late game than PvZ because terrans and protoss interact with hive tech zerg very differently. You are trying to solve the problem from protoss perspective, however I'm answering from zerg perspective. You cannot just black and white distinguish between the two comments. However, I can say you aren't very accurate. I didn't say taking islands justification is it does not work that way. I said, look at shine vs light game, it does not work that way. The best way to answer your comment isn't finding a Dweb game, that is what you are aiming, it is to bring to your attention some other game which I'm doing triple, one shine vs light game 1 on artosiscasts, one leta rush jyj did in asl 15 vs hero on 76 and one tvt on battlereports I lost track of.
|
Ok good to know that I missunderstood what you were trying to say.
However, I would still (and I imagine almost anyone who plays or has played a lot of starcraft would still) say that TvZ games (let alone TvT...) are not helpful for analysis of this PvZ game between Bisu and Larva.
The late game 'win conditions' for ZvP are different than for ZvT. A map without much manuverabillity that is easy to defiler push through the center of is really busted for zerg late game versus terran so zergs don't have to worry as much about islands and a war of attrition. You can be behind on bases as a zerg and cast swarm in the terran's natural and steal a win, you cant do that versus protoss. Terrans main defence against that is maintaining map control with agression (which is hard to do on that map due to the limited avenues of attack) and delaying the zerg army with small groups of units while casting irradiates. The scary zerg units die to irradiates, mines, and roving terran armies long before they ever make it near the terran bases if the terran is playing well. It's very different from PvZ where players can (if they like this play style) attempt to maintain even bases to zerg, camp those bases with cost effective spell casters and reactively try to kill zerg armies and drops at their bases by utilyzing preperation and anticipation skills. Have you ever watched Snow play a PvZ? If I'm remembering correctly Snow had a win versus Effort that showcases this play style in the ASL as well. This is not super advanced Starcraft theory, it's conventional wisdom for most people who have played either of these matchups at even a mid-tier level. It's ok to dispute each of these matchup's conventional wisdom about how they should be played if you want to, but you need to at the very least show examples of the matchups themselves (in this case ZvP and certainly not ZvT let alone TvT...).
|
On October 02 2025 22:16 puppykiller wrote: Ok good to know that I missunderstood what you were trying to say.
However, I would still (and I imagine almost anyone who plays or has played a lot of starcraft would still) say that TvZ games (let alone TvT...) are not helpful for analysis of this PvZ game between Bisu and Larva.
The late game 'win conditions' for ZvP are different than for ZvT. A map without much manuverabillity that is easy to defiler push through the center of is really busted for zerg late game versus terran so zergs don't have to worry as much about islands and a war of attrition. You can be behind on bases as a zerg and cast swarm in the terran's natural and steal a win, you cant do that versus protoss. Terrans main defence against that is maintaining map control with agression (which is hard to do on that map due to the limited avenues of attack) and delaying the zerg army with small groups of units while casting irradiates. The scary zerg units die to irradiates, mines, and roving terran armies long before they ever make it near the terran bases if the terran is playing well. It's very different from PvZ where players can (if they like this play style) attempt to maintain even bases to zerg, camp those bases with cost effective spell casters and reactively try to kill zerg armies and drops at their bases by utilyzing preperation and anticipation skills. Have you ever watched Snow play a PvZ? If I'm remembering correctly Snow had a win versus Effort that showcases this play style in the ASL as well. This is not super advanced Starcraft theory, it's conventional wisdom for most people who have played either of these matchups at even a mid-tier level. It's ok to dispute each of these matchup's conventional wisdom about how they should be played if you want to, but you need to at the very least show examples of the matchups themselves (in this case ZvP and certainly not ZvT let alone TvT...). I just show you loss conditions for zerg and you can make your opinion about it. Also, when you say defiler, the whole game Larva almost won without them, got to check if he made any. That is what I mean. You have to ruse the opponent, but sometimes rush times are all that matters. This is why wraiths are in a pvz discussion because they are faster than what protoss has and it is the reference to which you have to come up with, in order to beat zerg in a similar fashion. This is real time strategy after all, everything works, even defilers after a 94.6s delay from a queen however your mileage may vary.
|
I can't really see how any... ANY of those points have anything to do with what I wrote...
|
|
|
|