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On January 27 2025 20:37 mutantmagnet wrote:
Devourer/ muta is the best air to air unit combo in the game, period.
But there is no point for devourers to be used.
Hydra's has sufficiently carried zerg when corsairs were an issue and terran folds to scourge unless they get battlecruisers which is so rare and has always ended up in small enough numbers hydra plague has been good enough.
The only way you can force zerg to use devourers is to create a secondary objective that devourers can attack after the muta/devo combo wins the air battle.
That means at the pro level you will only see devourer in ZvZ because overlords meet that condition.
If Terran had a building that was valuable while flying then devourers could also see play then.
Or if protoss builds carrier-corsair fleet. It is really rare, but happens sometimes on semi-island maps, where hydralisks are not very good counter because of carriers much superior mobility. I saw great Snow vs Larva carriers game on such map.
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On January 30 2025 12:27 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2025 02:23 Nirli wrote:On December 23 2024 12:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I’m quite sure that if people keep playing starcraft at high level, we will end up one day with ghosts being a standard unit.
For what they do, they are extremely cheap. A ghost can basically one shot a shittle, an arbiter, a reaver or a carrier. The only drawback is that no one has the skill to use such an insanely demanding unit on what is without context the most demanding race multitasking wise.
But i can totally see a future where ghosts are standard to defend bases in tvp versus drops or recall and in TvT to neutralize battlecruisers against which they are honestly a very, very strong counter.
I am old enough to remember extremely strong players arguing that we would never see EMP in tvp on this very forum because it was too expensive and too micro intensive. So i wouldn’t discard lockdown. It’s an incredible ability considering how little ghosts cost. That's the hottest take of 2024 my guy. Even an infested Terran is better than Ghosts. Why is that? Lockdown seems like a crazy good spell on paper and ghosts are pretty cheap. Outside of being super micro intensive, what makes ghosts so bad in your opinion? I can see in the future ghosts being used to freeze shuttles mid air or as a counter to carrier. I realize it would require god like multitasking, but it also seems to me that people are getting better and constantly pushing the boundaries of what was thought to be realistically possible.
It is not just micro intensity. Ghosts are very squishy, have to wait to accumulate energy for lockdown+cloak, then have to get close to carriers without getting smashed by protoss ground army (a single storm or volley from dragoons might kill them all). Then you still need to have AA around to kill disabled carriers, as well as ground army big enough to fight off toss ground army...
Goliaths can fight carriers more reliably and from much longer distance. And as surprise option wraiths are superior: way more mobile thanks to speed and flight, and can quickly kill carriers on their own. Both do not require nearly as much babysitting as ghosts.
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That said, disabling shuttles is a good idea. In theory, if players had more apm than now, and could afford controlling ghosts simultaneously with the rest of their army. Shuttle drops can deal terrible damage to terran, that lockdowning them might be a difference between defeat and victory.
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On December 23 2024 12:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I’m quite sure that if people keep playing starcraft at high level, we will end up one day with ghosts being a standard unit.
For what they do, they are extremely cheap. A ghost can basically one shot a shittle, an arbiter, a reaver or a carrier. The only drawback is that no one has the skill to use such an insanely demanding unit on what is without context the most demanding race multitasking wise.
But i can totally see a future where ghosts are standard to defend bases in tvp versus drops or recall and in TvT to neutralize battlecruisers against which they are honestly a very, very strong counter.
I am old enough to remember extremely strong players arguing that we would never see EMP in tvp on this very forum because it was too expensive and too micro intensive. So i wouldn’t discard lockdown. It’s an incredible ability considering how little ghosts cost.
My thoughts exactly.
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France7890 Posts
On February 05 2025 12:01 SiarX wrote:
That said, disabling shuttles is a good idea. In theory, if players had more apm than now, and could afford controlling ghosts simultaneously with the rest of their army. Shuttle drops can deal terrible damage to terran, that lockdowning them might be a difference between defeat and victory.
I assume at the very least they could be a very strong drop defense option. Whether it’s arbiter or shuttles, a couple of ghosts with lockdown would make a location, be in an expo or a main, very hard to drop to, a little bit like people use vessels to emp incoming arbiters. And that doesn’t require to protect or cloak ghosts.
Then again, StarCraft is practical game, and i assumes that it has been tried. Maybe they get a niche at some point, like dark archons do in pvz.
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[B]
Then again, StarCraft is practical game, and i assumes that it has been tried. Maybe they get a niche at some point, like dark archons do in pvz.
Sure, but no one used dark archons and queens until recently, because "it has been tried already".
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I still think Corsairs have a place in some small percentage of PvT games. Specifically, following a partial army trade off the Bisu 11 minute 4-base 200/200 attack to either crush the 3rd or trade armies.
That build practically guarantees a partial reset on the tank count on many maps, and if executed properly, even if defended against perfectly, forces the T to stay back and rebuild. So, after the trade, instead of rushing to a 5th base or arbs, get a fleet beacon, disruption web, and 4 corsairs. Let the T expand to a 4th, then crush it hard with storms and D Web.
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On January 28 2025 15:46 SiarX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2025 12:24 Severedevil wrote:
Ghosts are the cheapest caster, but they're at the top of the tech tree and require additional research before they're useful. It's real awkward to hit timings.
That said, SK Terran often has spare resources and map control but no way to break hardened positions. Nukes would be a fun solution. Would not several tanks be cheaper than ghost tech + ghost + nuke? And tanks would not die as easily to even smallest counterattack.
No, because Zerg can build more sunkens behind while getting guards or ultras or swarm
nuke is only a few seconds to one shot all sunkens and stim in
Artosis showed this build vs. crazy Zerg and you can hit before +4 ultra. Wouldn't work against swarm tech because it can't hit before swarm (unless Zerg is too slow to tech)
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On February 28 2025 16:32 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2025 15:46 SiarX wrote:On January 28 2025 12:24 Severedevil wrote:
Ghosts are the cheapest caster, but they're at the top of the tech tree and require additional research before they're useful. It's real awkward to hit timings.
That said, SK Terran often has spare resources and map control but no way to break hardened positions. Nukes would be a fun solution. Would not several tanks be cheaper than ghost tech + ghost + nuke? And tanks would not die as easily to even smallest counterattack. No, because Zerg can build more sunkens behind while getting guards or ultras or swarm nuke is only a few seconds to one shot all sunkens and stim in Artosis showed this build vs. crazy Zerg and you can hit before +4 ultra. Wouldn't work against swarm tech because it can't hit before swarm (unless Zerg is too slow to tech)
Well, guardians are not good vs terran, so easy to kill... Ultras get countered by tanks. Swarm is an issue as always, but still: ghost is so much easier to kill than several tanks (which can try to retreat), especially at zerg base which always has overlords. And then you have wasted ghost, ghost tech and nuke.
Maybe nuke can work as very rare surprise.
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United States10165 Posts
On March 01 2025 04:37 SiarX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2025 16:32 iopq wrote:On January 28 2025 15:46 SiarX wrote:On January 28 2025 12:24 Severedevil wrote:
Ghosts are the cheapest caster, but they're at the top of the tech tree and require additional research before they're useful. It's real awkward to hit timings.
That said, SK Terran often has spare resources and map control but no way to break hardened positions. Nukes would be a fun solution. Would not several tanks be cheaper than ghost tech + ghost + nuke? And tanks would not die as easily to even smallest counterattack. No, because Zerg can build more sunkens behind while getting guards or ultras or swarm nuke is only a few seconds to one shot all sunkens and stim in Artosis showed this build vs. crazy Zerg and you can hit before +4 ultra. Wouldn't work against swarm tech because it can't hit before swarm (unless Zerg is too slow to tech) Well, guardians are not good vs terran, so easy to kill... Ultras get countered by tanks. Swarm is an issue as always, but still: ghost is so much easier to kill than several tanks (which can try to retreat), especially at zerg base which always has overlords. And then you have wasted ghost, ghost tech and nuke. Maybe nuke can work as very rare surprise.
huh? Guardians are fine against Terran, they 2 shot marines and have great range. If terran tries to irradiate, you simply spread the guardians.
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Haven't been following the discussion but I just want to say, I'm not sure what is the point of making criticism when it comes to theorycraft. Doesn't seem constructive to me in any way to say "you can't do that/it doesn't work." If there's an idea, people are free to try it and explore it, and if they can make it work in some way, great, and if it doesn't, it doesn't. Spending time to anti-theorycraft an idea seems senseless IMO.
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On March 01 2025 04:37 SiarX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2025 16:32 iopq wrote:On January 28 2025 15:46 SiarX wrote:On January 28 2025 12:24 Severedevil wrote:
Ghosts are the cheapest caster, but they're at the top of the tech tree and require additional research before they're useful. It's real awkward to hit timings.
That said, SK Terran often has spare resources and map control but no way to break hardened positions. Nukes would be a fun solution. Would not several tanks be cheaper than ghost tech + ghost + nuke? And tanks would not die as easily to even smallest counterattack. No, because Zerg can build more sunkens behind while getting guards or ultras or swarm nuke is only a few seconds to one shot all sunkens and stim in Artosis showed this build vs. crazy Zerg and you can hit before +4 ultra. Wouldn't work against swarm tech because it can't hit before swarm (unless Zerg is too slow to tech) Well, guardians are not good vs terran, so easy to kill... Ultras get countered by tanks. Swarm is an issue as always, but still: ghost is so much easier to kill than several tanks (which can try to retreat), especially at zerg base which always has overlords. And then you have wasted ghost, ghost tech and nuke. Maybe nuke can work as very rare surprise.
Ultras don't get countered by tanks, they get countered by mines. Marine/tank doesn't work well vs. ultra/ling
for one, tanks splash each other and ultras attack from up close
if you have d matrix and the zerg doesn't have swarm yet they have no way to kill a ghost because one volley from 11 mutas doesn't remove d matrix and if you have energy you can apply it again
the problem with tanks is not that zerg will take them out, but that they will sit there hitting sunkens until Zerg is ready to kill your whole army
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France7890 Posts
On February 28 2025 08:53 ThunderJunk wrote:
I still think Corsairs have a place in some small percentage of PvT games. Specifically, following a partial army trade off the Bisu 11 minute 4-base 200/200 attack to either crush the 3rd or trade armies.
That build practically guarantees a partial reset on the tank count on many maps, and if executed properly, even if defended against perfectly, forces the T to stay back and rebuild. So, after the trade, instead of rushing to a 5th base or arbs, get a fleet beacon, disruption web, and 4 corsairs. Let the T expand to a 4th, then crush it hard with storms and D Web.
I also think that there would be a lot of value to have fleet bacons mixed up in other builds than carrier transition.
Right now if a terran scans a bacon he knows carriers are on the way and will react with as timing push and a transition to Goliaths. Not knowing if it’s going to be disruption webs on his tank line or carriers would make reaction much more awkward.
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The issue is that accumulation of energy for disruption webs takes so long, and corsairs are otherwise useless, so you have wasted a lot of resources on corsairs, d-web and fleet beacon, and you smaller ground army is at risk of being overwhelmed... Why not to spend them on shuttles with zealots instead? They will do the same job.
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France7890 Posts
On March 03 2025 18:55 SiarX wrote:
The issue is that accumulation of energy for disruption webs takes so long, and corsairs are otherwise useless, so you have wasted a lot of resources on corsairs, d-web and fleet beacon, and you smaller ground army is at risk of being overwhelmed... Why not to spend them on shuttles with zealots instead? They will do the same job.
I guess you can also make the point that arbiter achieve the same results through stairs and have other utilities.
Saw TY go ghosts and nukes in a game vs Stork this week, but I assume it was for the memes rather than anything else. He did nuke him three times, though, and killed a zillion workers though he ended losing the game.
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how about queens zvp? i am watching snow and if it goes to late game he just storms everything and wins
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France7890 Posts
How did you avoid getting zoned by goons?
Queens work against mech because terran usually lacks substantial anti air when going heavily tank / vultures.
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I think devourers and infested terrans could see use if zerg played hive more. The reason I say this is because the units to sustain these units need hive tech which is late. Are devourers and mutalisks that much more economical than ultraling+defilers? Are infested terran pushes viable when the infested command center can be reclaimed by terran at any time if the base isn't overrun by zerg which never happens in a current zvt game. Either the base is abandoned, or cleared from zerg before the command center can be infested by a queen. I say this because they reflect a staying power deficit in the zerg air arsenal. A single valkyrie can disperse the air superiority and it never goes past the instantaneous zerg skirmish. There is never a zerg air endgame goal in sight.
The way zerg is designed is you should take fights with guardians, ensnaring queens and plaging defilers at the same time under static hydralisk defence while devourers modify mutalisk and hydralisk damage output 300% and 200% respectively. However splash damage is a fact and you cannot wait while the enemy withers and dies when you are the weaker party. Also, guardians and hydralisks effectively have the same dps making high tech a dilemma for zerg.
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On March 03 2025 18:55 SiarX wrote:
The issue is that accumulation of energy for disruption webs takes so long, and corsairs are otherwise useless, so you have wasted a lot of resources on corsairs, d-web and fleet beacon, and you smaller ground army is at risk of being overwhelmed... Why not to spend them on shuttles with zealots instead? They will do the same job.
The same argument can be made about queens in ZvT. J/S 
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EPT
